HYPOTHETICAL situation...no fact, and figures are swag'd.
A potential customer calls about a price of a banner and you quote a nominal generic price...lets say 2 bucks a square foot, basic design, couple lines of basic type. At this point she's not sure, just needs a price. At your request, the customer meets with you to discuss said banner. Nothing have been said before, she wants a digital print, photograph, pms colors, laminated and 6 lines of copy.
Now we're at way more than 2 bucks a sq., You do your best to set your case of what is available for the 2 bucks a sq, but she argues that you quoted 2 bucks...
I know what the Federal Laws are...
Where do we go from here?
[ September 09, 2008, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: Sam Sanfilippo ]
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
If she made too much of a stink, then I would have to tell her that I couldn't help her and show her the way to the door.
When quoting I try to get as many of the pertinent facts that the inquirer is willing to disclose. However, some people are very vague and insist on you blindly quoting a job. When forced to quote a job sight unseen, I like to preface a price with the phrase... "Staring at..."
So, what do the Federal Laws say? My curiosity is piqued.
Posted by James Chrimes (Member # 5864) on :
Sell the banner at $2 a sq. ft. Now you do the switch and add your design fee to make up the differance.
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
quote:Originally posted by Sam Sanfilippo: A potential customer calls about a price of a banner and you quote a nominal generic price...lets say 2 bucks a square foot, basic design, couple lines of basic type. At this point she's not sure, just needs a price. At your request, the customer meets with you to discuss said banner. Nothing have been said before, she wants a digital print, photograph, pms colors, laminated and 6 lines of copy.
Now we're at way more than 2 bucks a sq., You do your best to set your case of what is available for the 2 bucks a sq, but she argues that you quoted 2 bucks...
I know what the Federal Laws are...
Where do we go from here?
First of all, don't quote the price over the phone. Eplain that it would be more fair to both of you if she can come to your place, see some of your work, and inspect the materials. If she insists on a price, shoot her an email, spell out the price and describe exactly what she gets for that price. It's date stamped. right there in black and white.
Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
I don't see what the big deal would be as long as you are being honest. I work for someone else, so I'm not responsible for final pricing, but customers ask me about prices all the time. I generally give them an idea of what most people spend for a particular set of criteria. But, I also say if they want something more complex, or something with a digital print it's going to be more.
If your shop rarely if ever sells banners at $2 a square foot, I wouldn't quote that price. Put yourself in the customer's shoes and give them a price they can make decisions with. If it requires gathering more information, let them know you don't have enough information to give them a very solid price.
Posted by John Arnott (Member # 215) on :
Sometimes I feel like I'm playing POKER with the customer. Have you noticed how a customer walks in with a piece of paper in their hand. They don't want to just show you it. They want to start the questions . . . .how much is a sign? How big? "ABOUT" . . . . #%@*#$@#. What does it say. . . . .
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
All we have to do is read the definition of bait and switch. It is very clear. Thats what counts. No other opinion counts. Not even what we feel is right or wrong makes a difference.
definitions from a expert.. Bait advertising is an alluring but insincere offer to sell a product or service which the advertiser in truth does not intend or want to sell.
No practice should be pursued by an advertiser, in the event of sale of the advertised product, of "unselling" with the intent and purpose of selling other merchandise in its stead.
Accepting a deposit for the advertised product, then switching the purchaser to a higher-priced product,
No advertisement containing an offer to sell a product should be published when the offer is not a bona fide effort to sell the advertised product.
Essentially, refusing to sell the said item at the stated price is at the root of it all. Or offering a product at substantially lower price than it costs to get it and encouraging the customer to buy the other item.
So, to me the law says... When selling a banner we say 2 bux a foot for basic. And we show them the basic product with one color and two lines, block text. Then we show them the options to make it a nicer product. Its their choice between basic or enhanced. If they choose the cheapest so be it. The customer was not denied the product. There is no effort to switch him to another product. Its the very same product. Hence, that is not bait and switch.
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
About 22 years ago, when my wife and I were newlyweds, we got out first esperience with a "bait and switch" operation. We laugh about it now but, at the time, it got a little scarey.
In the back of the newspaper, LynnDee had found this ad for a freezer full of steaks and boxes of "free vegetables" at a ridiculously low price, from a place called "Angus Beef Company". My Dad happened to be a meat cutter by trade and when I told him about it, he mentioned it at his place of work. It just so happened that one of Dad's coworkers had worked for one of these outfits for a short time and he said it was a scam. He explained that they would first show you an awful shriveled looking carcase, hanging in a freezer, tell you that was what you would get at the advertised price, and then would try to steer(no pun intended) you to a nice fresh one, at a much higher price. I related this to LynnDee, but she looked at me with those big sweet eyes and said "Oh Wayne, can't we just go and see?" So we went.
I thought it was strange that the visit was by appointment but, when we arrived, a "custoemr" with a box was at the counter "paying" for their box of meat. They walked out and we sat there in the empty lobby for a while when this guy came in and led us to a back room. As we walked through, there were about four bandsaws all running and unattended, with absolutely no meat scraps, fat residue, or blood on them. They were spotless. He took us straight to that freezer and showed us a shriveled mouldy mummified carcase that looked like it had been excavated from the Siberian permafrost. Then he began his fast-talking spiel. As I kept trying to decline, he left for a few seconds and out came another guy, dressed in a clean white meat cutters smock and holding a butcher knife; I kid you not. I worked a short stint as a meatcutter myself, and I can tell you from first hand experience; a honed butcher knife is a fearsome thing. And this guy's manner seemed to be much more intimidating...maybe it was just the knife. At that point my thoughts went from declining the offer, to raw survival. I began sidling toward the back door with the butcher in pursuit
As I got to the car and managed to make it in the seat, this guy blocked my shutting the car door and continued talking. Somehow, I got the door shut and this guy was leaning in the window and still wouldn't let us leave. After what seemed like an eternity, relief finally came when he backed up just enough for me to roll the window up, lock the door and get out of there.
[ September 09, 2008, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
WOW,, that would scare me too. Maybe it was a mob scam...
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
The jest of it is, Curtis, the "BAIT" was on the premises, they never refused to sell it, they didn't have to. It was so disgusting looking, nobody would have bought it anyway. But they did verbally "disparage" the quality of it. Like they really needed to.
Federal Trade Commission Sec. 238.3 Discouragement of purchase of advertised merchandise.
No act or practice should be engaged in by an advertiser to discourage the purchase of the advertised merchandise as part of a bait scheme to sell other merchandise. Among acts or practices which will be considered in determining if an advertisement is a bona fide offer are:
(a) The refusal to show, demonstrate, or sell the product offered in accordance with the terms of the offer,
(b) The disparagement by acts or words of the advertised product or the disparagement of the guarantee, credit terms, availability of service, repairs or parts, or in any other respect, in connection with it,
(e) The showing or demonstrating of a product which is defective, unusable or impractical for the purpose represented or implied in the advertisement,
[ September 09, 2008, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
Hiya Sam, I can normally estimate a cost over the phone. If the client wants a price, they must give details/specifications and an email addresss I can send a quote - which is still subject to change.
It really depends on the client and the project, but I doubt I would stick to my $2 quote.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
P.S. Hey Wayne, From what you posted of your experience, the butcher deal was a definite bait and switch because the product was un-fit for the intended purpose. Sam's situation is not because he is selling a usable product within his definition of the product. A banner with straight text is still a banner and it will do its job at $2 a quare foot.
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Hahahaha Wayne...."Angus Beef Co."? ...they must have moved from here!
When we lived in Utah... we bought sides of beef from "Miller Blue Ribbon Meats"... excellent beef!
When we moved to So. California about 45 years ago, there was just such a company in the next town west of us... so I went to buy some beef! I'll bet it was the same ugly carcass that they showed you!
I took one look and said "Nice try!": and turned around and walked out, leaving him sputtering to himself! Maybe the look on my face and my size told him not to mess with me!
[ September 09, 2008, 04:14 PM: Message edited by: Si Allen ]
Posted by Mike South (Member # 4523) on :
We don't do anything for $2sqft....
I never quote over the phone, i estimate. Big difference. I always do the starting at price and explain the variables that can effect cost. Design time, materials, etc... but I try to get them to come in to review the project or via email...so we can give them a quote with a design.
Sam's hypothetical is NOT bait and switch. It's a matter of a customer trying to take advantage of us gulable sign creators. If they treatend us with Fed laws I would use the fed law of our right to refuse business.
Posted by Dawud Shaheed (Member # 5719) on :
Ok, well I am currently dealing with a situation where a customer of mine is getting a little edgy with me because the price keeps going up on him.
We met one day, talked over what a potential lettering job would cost on his truck. he had no logo , no ideas, just wanted to know what some lettering would cost. I got an idea of how much space he wanted to us and whether he wanted full panels printed or just cut vinyl. He said it didn't matter, OK? so...well, how about you give me a deposit and I can spend some time with you at your convenience going over your design and getting it right for you. so he's determined to get a price. I told him $450 to start and it could go up depending on how much he adds, but going by the areas he showed me and figuring cut vinyl and maybe a few digital prints that would be the price. Well 3 sit downs later and 4 revisions later, his price keeps going up along with material costs and more graphics covering half of his truck. He pulled the old "well you quoted $450 when we started" thing and I said, look...you don't walk into a car dealer to buy a base model car at $9980 and after the price is agreed and deposit is given, walk in the next day expecting to add rims, pinstripes, sunroofs and leather seats for the same price do you? He's all like..."Well, I'm scared to even call you about this anymore because you always bring up this price thing" I just told him we'll figure it out and make sure neither one of us feels wronged, and to let me know when he wants to finish up his design. (btw, this guy insists on sitting over my shoulder while I design because we can't get anywhere through email) He gave me $200 and I feel like I only have 1 more sit down left with him before I tell him to take his deposit and go find someone else to waste their time.
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
I agree. Sam's scenario is not bait and switch, so long as Sam gives the customer the details and states that it is his bottom of the line basic product, before he ends the telephone conversation.
Where the problem comes in, in Sam's scenario, is not Sam's fault; The problem was this customer's memory. A customer who doesn't know the terminology anyway is most likely going to forget some of those little details about "two lines, one color, 2 sides, coroplast etc.". Since the customer called you on the phone, for a price, and the first thing out of their mouth was "price"....Their main concern is PRICE. That's why I recommended him to try to get the customer in the store first or EMAIL the details in writing. I never said Sam's scenario was "bait and switch". I was explaining what "bait and swtich" was, mainly for Curtis.
[ September 09, 2008, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
Posted by Christian Slager (Member # 1074) on :
Sam, The original conversation should have gone like this...
"Thank you for calling _______ this is Sam, how can I help you?" "Yes I need to get a price on a banner" "Alright ma'am, what size banner are you looking for?" "oh I'm not sure....what's a normal size?" "Well ma'am, a usual size that we sell a lot of is 3'tall x 8' wide, will that work for you?" "yes, that sounds good, how much is that?" "well, there are many options available, but as far as a place to start goes, a 1 color, text only 3x8 will run you $xxx, but I would recommend doing a full color banner for maximum impact. You can do anything you want on it, and that would run you $xxx. Now, if we get this order placed right now, we can have it ready to be put up for this weekend so that it can start making you money immediately, all we require is a 50% deposit to get started, and then we can start on your artWORK, and send you over a proof!"
no room for error. :-)
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
QUOTE: "A potential customer calls about a price of a banner and you quote a nominal generic price...lets say 2 bucks a square foot, basic design, couple lines of basic type. . . ."
??
This hypothetical situation never happens.
I ask too many endearing and 'intriguing' questions during the initial phone call, so many in fact, I virtually never get 'painted into a corner' (ha! a pun). There's never a doubt in my mind where the customer stands, nor any in the customers mind about where I stand, whether we hash it out over the phone or in person, the genre is their choice. The method of sales is mine.
I find that asking the customer questions about what they need helps them realize what they really need, thus they end up completely satisfied with the end product because they knew exactly what to expect.
They seem to appreciate the extra 'concern' and clarification.
Is'nt 'bait-and-switch' the actual retail sales term for advertising an offer for a certain product at a certain price and then changing the item to a similar one at a higher price? Not likely to happen with the kind of individualized, custom-type work we do, ey?
'Upselling' or perhaps you could call it 'upgrading' would be showing the customer additonal options after everything is clarified. If they appear to be choking and in need of air, you might need to 'down-sell'. I also prefer to call this something like 'price scaling'.
A.Here's the cost of what you want. B. For x-amount we can eliminate feature(s) and reduce your cost X-amount. . . . . or, if they seem up to it . . . C.For x-amount we can add 'feature(s) which will be an additonal cost of X.
Everyone loves having a choice. It's why everything on the planet comes in so many colours . . .
Let us compare apples with apples brethren & sistahs, and do so with perfect spelling I might add in an edited note . . .
[ September 09, 2008, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: Sheila Ferrell ]
Posted by Sam Sanfilippo (Member # 425) on :
Okay...real quick for those of you that missed it...
It was hypothetical...
I don't sell banners at 2 bucks a square....
I don't quote without all the info, and if I have to it's after I researched all options...and I'll call them back or meet with them...
Interesting replies so far, though.
Posted by Tim Whitcher (Member # 685) on :
Wayne, I tried to sell a banner using the butcher knife tactic but it didn't work. Posted by bruce ward (Member # 1289) on :
assuming the customer was getting a shi****ty attitude with me I would tell them to go somewhere else....i dont know what federal law is out there but they can take that law and shove it.
customers RARELY give you the whole recipe when they call, so usually i waaaaaay overshoot it and hope they dont call back. like those that STILL to this day call and demand plywood. i dont do it, aint goona do it, go somewhere else
Posted by Ricky Jackson (Member # 5082) on :
If I give a phone quote I always qualify it with "Thats for one _____. ____ size, one side, one color, up to 10 words, and no artwork or logos.
Posted by Craig Sjoquist (Member # 4684) on :
customers play the bait and switch all the time..also the 2 boss game ..plus several others ... when that happens I just close the books and walk away .... what I do let them get away with is, the small change meaning less then a hour of effort on my part ... mostly cause of they forgot ...
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