The guy says, "This is so and so from so and so country club. We have another country club in so and so and are going to need hundreds of signs."
At this point I'm getting excited because I have been basically dead for a month now.
Then he says, "They told me since we have to make so many signs I should just buy a CNC router. Can you provide any info. on the CNC's?"
I wanted to go through the phone and bite this guys head off. Here we have a golf course superintendent going into the sign making business.
Someone shoot me!!! I wish I could find a part time job while my daughter is in school. I've just about had all I can take of this crap. UUGGGHHH!!
I told him I don't appreciate him calling and asking questions that would lead to taking money out of my pocket. I also explained that there is more to making signs than just running them through a CNC and when he is ready to order signs call me back.
Sorry, I just needed to rant. What a joke!!
[ August 14, 2008, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: Amy Brown ]
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Some people are just stupid..and then there are those people who defy logic to the point that it would be justified to reinstate public hangings.
That guy falls into the latter group...
If they do get a router, I'd love to be a fly on the wall when they come to the realization that will also need paint, a design program, installation materials, and someone who is willing to run the whole shebang at minimum wage (which of course will ensure most of the jobs get fudged up from day one).
For what it's worth, I'd call them back and open their eyes to the reality that having the machine and knowing how to run it are not the same thing. A heads up about the cost of wasted materials and botched installs might be worth a return call.
Got nothing to lose from it... Rapid
[ August 14, 2008, 12:13 PM: Message edited by: Ray Rheaume ]
Posted by Amy Brown (Member # 1963) on :
I did tell him (in not too many words) it's not all that easy. I was not rude with him and he did say if they decided not to buy a router he would call me back.
I just couldn't believe it when I heard it! What are ya gonna do!
Posted by Bill Lynch (Member # 3815) on :
Yea and I got 40 acres I wanta make a golf course on, ya wanna tell me what I need to get it going...I mean after all it's only some lawn and 18 holes in the ground.
Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
Hahahaha, Bill. That would have been the PERFECT response.
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
and here we have sign people going into pinstriping, airbrushing, glass carving, electrical work, post hole digging, general contracting, carpentry, commercial building, wood carving, computer programming, engraving, installations of every kind, welding, business card and other printing needs, sand blasting, font making, screen printing and a host of every conceivable trade where others are rapidly forced to close their doors due to the influx of persons who believe they can do it all and do it better, that is until they all close their doors and than all of us are forced to shop at Wal-Mart where China and Taiwanese products are the only stores left in this world.
Amy, This may sound cruel but my intentions are not to harm you or anyone else but the fact remains that the plotter- cutter was originally intended to help sign writers expand their businesses and not to put housewives or retired seniors and factory personal into the sign business.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
of course it won't harm Amy or anyone here, as it's entirely irrelevant in Letterville.
Real sign people are going into pinstriping, airbrushing, glass carving, electrical work, post hole digging, general contracting, carpentry, commercial building, wood carving, computer programming, engraving, installations of every kind, welding, business card and other printing needs, sand blasting, font making, screen printing because that's what sign people do, not what golf courses do.
I just don't see any similarity at all between this thread, and anything you posted, but I miss a lot so, C'est La Vie
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
...forgot to add that Amy's phone call literally makes me laugh after spending 6 months of distraction to properly prepare for & purchase and install a router & assorted auxiliary machines... and last night I spent hours trying to properly set the tool paths for my second real job, which ended up pretty nice, but with a few bugs to be dealt with...
Whatever the profit is, on 300 golf course signs... I wouldn't ever have accepted TWICE that amount of money for just the time I've invested so far on bringing in a CNC machine... not to mention the hardware and buildout costs
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
What makes a golf course business any different than NASCAR builders who have their own plotters or for that matter is that irrelevant or super irrelevant?
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
Tell him that once he gets his router and needs to hire a signmaker to do his design work and run the machine that you are available at a wage of $25/hr as well as benefits and and 10 free annual passes to the course and a 30% off discount to to the restaurant and pro shop.
It sounds like he didn't have a clue as to the learning curve or the initial costs of getting set up. I very highly doubt that they will go that route once they investigate it a little furthur, I can't see it being cost effective.
I'm glad you managed to be civil and I really hope he calls you back!
I have to disagree with you Joey, I believe the plotter/cutter was originally intended to provide an alternative to signwriters. Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
Kelly so sorry I may have used the wrong word, as you say intended and I said expand, but both of us said signwriters and not housewives or other assorted personal not associated with this craft
Posted by Dale Feicke (Member # 767) on :
I have to agree/disagree with you both. Yes, the computer and all the automated stuff that it's given birth to have given us more tools to work with.....
But at the same time, it's opened the door to any bookkeeper, housewife, fireman, golf course operator, or anyone with a fat checkbook to get into the sign business. And irregardless of the beautiful work that Dan, Gary Anderson, or anyone else who has the skills to properly use this equipment, it has inundated the world with poorly designed and executed signs, allowed people with inferior materials and trade-related skills to still get the job done, and basically cheapened what used to be a real, exciting craft into just another way to make a buck.
Posted by bruce ward (Member # 1289) on :
What some of you see as a nuisiance and stupid I see as a potential customer. You must educate your customer as to why these signs must be done by you......NOW you see how stupid that sounds. this guy is an idiot!!!!LOL
I would be so ****ed at this call. you should tell him to go ahead and buy one its not like those puppies are set em up and route em out, maybe you operate it for them at $125.00 per hour on YOUR time
Posted by Ricky Jackson (Member # 5082) on :
I would have went Todd on him! I like what Bill said too; great analogy.
Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
Give them the specs on a very expensive CNC router and say that's what you HAVE to have to make signs..
Tell them, "Sure. It'll be easy. No problems. Foolproof. Guaranteed success."
They'll get it and it will sit for a couple years, barely getting used because they can't figure it out... the current manager will go his way, and the new one will want it out of their warehouse...
Enter Amy again... "Oh, that thing is WAY out of date. Worth almost nothing in todays sign world. I do know someone who'll buy it for scrap, and it'll almost cover my cost to haul it off for you..."
Enjoy your almost new router, paid for by the rich dumb people.
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
"...the fact remains that the plotter- cutter was originally intended to help sign writers expand their businesses and not to put housewives or retired seniors and factory personal into the sign business."
Actually, Joey, the original pen plotters were designed to assist technical draftsmen/persons reproduced drawings. They were slow, cumbersome, expensive and quite large, but produced quality reproductions. In the least, adding a blade and cuttable vinyl wasn't done to expand the drafting trade, but solely to gear the equipment toward the sign trade. Unfortunately, there was nothing to stop anyone from buying these plotters and as time has marched on and both the plotters and computers have come down in cost, what was once an industry perceived to include skill and some degree of artistic ability has become one of sheer production and cost effectiveness.
It's no longer how well you can make a sign, but how cost effectively you can make them.
I've said it before and will say it again... There are many tools in this trade. They are the weapons we use every day. Unfortunately, one weapon, vinyl plotters, are more and more in the hands of those who shoot blindly and don't have any aim. The rest of us have learned to either duck into diversity or get caught in the crossfire. Rapid
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
Being a housewife who bought a plotter, I have to react somewhat to that.
There are those who are incredibly skilled in what they do who are at the top of this craft. There is a slight problem with that though, they see each and every project as a work of art, which it often is. There are too few of them and there is no way that they can produce the volume to satisfy the market.
Do you remember how a beautiful young girl used to stand out in the crowd? These days with plastic surgery and braces and laser surgery and fat removal and makeup and whatever else they all seem to blend together. If everyone in the sign industry was capable of producing what some of the top dogs do, their work would loose a lot of it's magic.
There are a few of us "housewives" who are regular members of Letterville and it's discouraging to have worked extremely hard to build a successful business and to be put down for those efforts. I understand that it is frusterating for those who have been in the business to have to see poor layout or colours all around them. Still I defend the right of anyone who wants to give this business a go to do so. Those who the craft "belongs to" need to figure out how to work with that. Everyone here started at the bottom.
I'm not angry or hurt by the remarks, nor am I trying to cause friction, so don't read that into it. It's just that every coin has two sides, so I figured I'd flip this one over. Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
I always have a tough time with posts like this because I can see both sides of the situation.
I'm guilty of doing some of the very same things that get criticized here. I'm sure I disappointed the Honda people the other day when I drove into their lot, walked past all their sales people to the parts department and bought $20 worth of parts for my car. The dealer would have been happy to install them for me, and I am not a certified mechanic. But, I knew the dealer was going to charge more than I wanted to pay, and I felt perfectly capable of doing the job myself. I always fix my cars myself if it's something I can do.
I used to have people do my taxes, but in the past 4 years I've done them with my own computer. I am not a CPA.
I am not a contractor, but I have done a lot of framing, sheetrock, plumbing, electrical, etc.
I don't see anything wrong with someone trying to make or save extra money doing something they haven't done before. The offensive part, in my opinion, is when someone calls you up asking for tips on how they can compete with you. That shows a total lack of sensitivity and class.
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
You can all change the words to everything I said and agree to disagree on whatever it is that makes you feel they way you do but none of this bothers as much of my craft as it does yours.
Dale I agree to everything you've typed in, not that this is going to make a difference to either of us.
Ray, your statements are only partially correct as I was speaking of the sign industry and not the drafting industry and as a matter of fact, Gerber made plotters to reproduce television parts way before pen plotters. You have this uncanny act going for you as if you know more of something than others do while trying to impress us with your googled knowledge.
I'm not putting anyone down and I'm also not here for a personality contest as I typed and added these things from all the changes that I've seen here on this website in the 12 years I've been here.
When I make time I sit here and read all the posts and replies pertaining to what it is that persons do, feel and how they are getting around in today's economy. I see some total amatures doing better than some of the seasoned veterans and also see seasoned amatures trying to make ends meet without learning simple commonsense to whats needed in their work world as if their tools are state of the art. I follow a lot of things, have read a lot of books and actually have a life beyond what many of you may think. bottom line is, education costs money and if you don't have the education than this slows the making money process.
That's my take
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
quote:There are a few of us "housewives" who are regular members of Letterville and it's discouraging to have worked extremely hard to build a successful business and to be put down for those efforts
You are a house wife,, but, you are an artist as well. You cannot sit as a house wife and take offense at those statements is relevant to the artist.
No one puts down any one for being both. In fact pride and respect are better words for those who earned recognition for building oneself into a high level of ability in two completely different life paths
However that remark above was aimed at all those tourists, dabblers, and eavesdroppers who merely get into it as a casual speculator. Too many of those walk with no honor or respect for the work and profession. Male golf managers included.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
AND NOW WE HAVE .........."THE CRICKET" for all those housewifes who .."craft"))))))))))))))))) then we got the "dummies with money" WHO go out and buy $20,000.00 printers and sell what they crank out for $2-4 sq ft!!!!!!!
[ August 14, 2008, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by Jason Davie (Member # 2172) on :
so which one do u have op?
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
An interesting thread!!
My feeble thoughts are...
If a golf course guy wants to spend the huge money and huge time to buy and learn how to run a CNC router, his boss (the owner) MIGHT just end up firing him, even if it was the owner's idea to start with. ($hit DOES flow downhill in the employer/employee relationship!!!) Because there is also gonna be a lot of waste involved.
BUT, who knows, maybe the golf course guy IS a talented guy and will be able to quickly learn how to run the machine and.....maybe, god forbid....he actually does have a talent for good design???
As far as vinyl cutters are concerned, those who buy one and get into the business will either flourish or die, depending on whether they produce good work or not and whether they have good business sense or not.
The best and most talented designers can languish if they have no business sense and the same is true of talented entreprenuers who have absolutely no talent at design.
Learning sign design CAN be done by taking workshops, attending Letterhead meets and reading the eye candy in trade magazines.
Learning business is a bit tougher and usually involves enrolling in the "school of hard knocks"!
I can relate to Amy's frustration because I have had a similar question asked of me in the past. After a couple of months of waiting for a call-back I let it go like water off a duck's back. I have no idea if the customer bought a cutter or just went to a cheaper guy. I think I might have developed ONE extra grey hair over the call!!!
In closing, I have to repeat what I have always said in the past...GO AFTER THE BIG CLIENTS!! They are the ones that will keep you going through thick and thin!!!!
(stepping off my soapbox, NEXT?)
Posted by Amy Brown (Member # 1963) on :
Kelly,
I actually thought the same thing about throwing my resume in to run their "CNC".
Russ, you pretty much summed it up for me. I understand everyone in the world trying to save a buck, especially as bad as the economy is right now. It was the phone call asking me all the questions that was unbelievable!!
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
jason.....NEITHER........and which do you have???))))))))))
Posted by Rich Stebbing (Member # 368) on :
Hey you could sell him one! offer you services as a buyer, because you speak "sign language", get him a bunch of Brochures. When purchase is made you collect from him as well as a comission from seller, money from both ends would "cool your jets". Then offer your services as a consultant, gee that's a lot of hats, but hey you need to make that money.
Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :
Well I can see why the golf course guy wants to buy a router. Don't you just type into the computer what you want and the router makes the sign? Simple! Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
I just can't believe these guys. I had one a few years ago. A then-customer called as he did every spring. Instead of asking when we could look at what he needed, he wanted me to tell him what plotter to buy & where to buy it & the vinyl & what software to buy so his wife would have something to do.
Come on, if you used your brian for just 1/2 a second before dialing the phone, would you honestly think it's a good idea to call a total stranger and expect them to teach you how to become their competitor?
Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :
Yeah, and then there's one of my customers that was determined to get a new beautiful sign for their new storefront, so they contacted someone that could router them something special. Turns out they were trying to sell him a router!
He's an automatic door control fabricator. LOL
For what it's worth (maybe nothing), Joey's first post degraded housewives period. He clarified later for that to mean housewives that aren't artists. BIG difference. You're good to go Kelly.
[ August 14, 2008, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: Donna in BC ]
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
ot oh, it was actually Dale who used housewife in a sentence on his first reply and me on my 3rd reply Donna, are we to assume that Dale degraded housewives and firemen too?
There was no degrading, no putting anyone in any trick bag no nothing of anything that was hard to read but just some information which I thought was simple facts on who buys plotters.
And on the other hand, I love you Donna and if anyone saw where an automatic door opener would enhance the sign business, you'd all be offering it to your customers and doing the installs Posted by Terry Baird (Member # 3495) on :
I doesn't bother me at all when someone with no layout experience purchases a plotter. I remember fondly, walking into my shop in the morning and making coffee. The smell of the freshly brewed coffee mixing with the intoxicating aroma of paint and thinners. I remember the dozens of boxes of hand drawn pounce patterns under the work bench. I was dragged kicking and screaming into the computer age and haven't used my $4000 or so collection of brushes in quite a while (probably my last Letterhead meet). My point is, if someone buys a plotter and takes the time to learn the history and "craft" of signmaking, then I will welcome him into the fold. If he learns how to run the plotter with disregard for the end product and makes no attempt to learn the age old, proper way to do things, then I look at it as an opportunity. Color, font selection, the relationship of positive and negative space and a dozen other factors rule my world. It is incredibly easy to go in behind a badly designed job and show "my new client" the error of his or her ways.
[ August 15, 2008, 07:56 AM: Message edited by: Terry Baird ]
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rich Stebbing: Hey you could sell him one! offer you services as a buyer, because you speak "sign language", get him a bunch of Brochures. When purchase is made you collect from him as well as a comission from seller, money from both ends would "cool your jets". Then offer your services as a consultant, gee that's a lot of hats, but hey you need to make that money.
Brilliant!!
Posted by Michael Gene Adkins (Member # 882) on :
Russ makes a good argument. It cuts both ways.
In my neck of the woods, race car drivers all want their own vinyl cutter. The reasons are legion, but the cost to pay someone to do their car seem to be the primary force behind this desire. That is, until they see how much time, money and space and man hours is required to suddenly do their own car.
The last one who did this to me told me I was too high. He now charges 8x what I was charging him.
EIGHT TIMES-!!!???
true story.
Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
Michael, me-thinks you must not be charging enough... if he's charging that much and getting it. I don't care if I do race cars anymore or not, but about $600 is the minimum I'll mess with. He CAN'T be charging $5,000.....
/can he? //if he is... we both need to raise our prices...
Posted by Ian Stewart-Koster (Member # 3500) on :
Amy, there are still ways you might end up benefitting from the deal, especially the 'consultant' angle, or the 'broker' and later under the 'scrap dealer' hats.
Doug's right, the for-us two month set-up & learning curve with the router was not previously imagined. It's been enjoyable, but time consuming- it's all an investment in the future.
On a different subject, I can see decent brushes only becoming more expensive as their demand for supply drops over time.
Posted by Harris Kohen (Member # 2139) on :
Sears sells a router pretty cheap. and it evencomes with software. SO yes they can get into the routed sign business cheap, but theyre limited to the designs that are offered with the machine and from what I could see of that machine their signs cant be much larger than a "Keep Off The Grass" sign with maybe a few grapevine designs on it.
My suggestion for Amy would be to go the extra mile. Drive on over to this A$$clown and try to sell him on signs and your designs without giving the guy any relative usable artwork. While doing this educate him on what it would cost for him to get into the routed sign business. include with that the cost of equipment, materials and software with bi-annual software updates. once you show this guy how much it costs to make the few signs he will need initially and then maybe a sign or 2 a year he will find out that the investment is far greater than the return.
I'm beginning to believe that the greatest part of this business is not the selling of signs, but educating customers as to the value of the signs they require.
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Everyone one of us was an "assclown" at one point or another of our careers.
All you schmucks (loosely spread to a select few) are forgetting where you came from. NONE of you were born with a brush in your hand or all the knowledge you have today. Someone, somewhere, at sometime showed you something, told you something, or shared some scrap of something with you all.
I walked into Wilke Signs in 1977 knowing bupkiss and left with a semblance of a working knowledge of sign painting. Jimmy Wilke gave me a pan of brushes and shoed me what it was to take someone under their wing and expect nothing in return.
Boy, what an "assclown" I must have been. Asking all those inane questions about lettering, styles, formation, layouts, colors, etc. OMG, what the frig was I thinking? Then again, WTF was HE thinking? Holy cripes! He shared his knowledge! I guess that makes him an "assclown", too.
I loved that man like a father. I would not be the sign man I am today if it had not been for that man. I remember helping him close out his shop when he told me, "When you started here, I wasn't sure whether you were going to be worth a sh_t or not. So, here you are... doing the kind of work I used to only dream about doing. You made me proud, son."
Yeah, not bad for an "assclown". Is that better than being a hapless loser? Who knows, I am proud to be both.
Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
Bruce, what Jimmy did doesn't make him a clown of any type. It makes him a Letterhead.
Posted by Darcy Baker (Member # 8262) on :
Bruce,use assmonkey every once in a while. It's just as comical and has the same connotation.
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
I never heard "assmonkey" before. I think that is even funnier! I just had a visual of a football... Hahahahahahahahahahaha!
Yes, David, Jimmy was a Letterhead without even knowing it. He was a good man.
Posted by Robert Larkham (Member # 2913) on :
Can I not buy a mop to mop the floor or do I have to hire the Janitor so as not to put him out of business. How many people work on there own cars. How many companies work on their own vehicles to save money. It is called capitalism and a free society. We may not like it but there is nothing we can do about it. I shut my business down because I could not compete without growing larger than I wanted to. I now work for a large commercial shop and for now we are very busy. Should that change, I may need to pound nails for a living. We have no guarantees in life except taxes and death. We are not entitled to make a living as sign guys or pinstripers. We do live in a free society where we have the choice to try and make a living at it, but that doesn't mean there won't be roadblocks and walls thrown in front of us. We sometimes have to re-invent ourselves to compete and even then it doesn't work. Hate to sound so cold but it is reality.
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
Bruce, I think we're talking about different things here.
I have no problem helping people learn. Key word: helping. As in they have taken the initiative to learn themselves & are asking for assistance, not someone who wants you to tell them step-by-step everything they need to do because they don't want to have to put in any of the effort themselves or forbid, actually learn something along the way.
The guy I'm referring to (and the way I took Amy's phone call) both wanted the same thing: Tell me exactly what I want to know, where to buy, etc. so I don't have to do any research on my own. They weren't asking for advice or input, they were asking for me to just freely give them all my hard-earned knowledge at once while they sat on the lazyboy. Had the question been "I'm looking at so-and-so plotter, what do you think?" My answer would have been totally different because they had already put something into it themselves.
Helping is 1 thing, doing everything for someone is a totally different story. I won't help someone who refuses to try to help themselves.
Posted by Amy Brown (Member # 1963) on :
Kissy,
That's exactly how I feel. I'm not against anyone starting whatever business they want. I've helped fellow sign folks when I could. Many people helped me get started. John Smith helped me a lot.
However, don't call me when you don't even know me from Adam and ask me to teach you how to route signs which in turn potentially take money from my pocket. That's just a no brainer for me!!
I'm over this whole thing. It's old news now. I'm waiting for a tropical storm in my pajamas while eating ice cream.
Time to let this topic die guys!!
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
quote:Originally posted by Amy Brown: I'm waiting for a tropical storm in my pajamas while eating ice cream.
Time to ...die guys!!
what a way to go though ...oh wait ...oops, guess I read that wrong Posted by Dawud Shaheed (Member # 5719) on :
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