After 20 years in the biz, I got the opportunity to design a logo for a major coal company. The design was met with great response and an order for 1,000 "stickers" (hate that term....) and truck lettering was made immediately. But I would like to acquire (at the least) an "exclusive" contract for all their signage. (Preferably everything that uses the logo.) Here, I'm sitting on a logo for a company that will employ 900 people at 7 facilities and I don't know how to ride this horse. I'm just a simple redneck signshop owner with no real knowledge in the "big time" graphics design business. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
no time for a more detailed response, but I think you should accept the fate that a lot of us encounter. A limited use license, or retaining the license for future use are NOT generally understood by a client.
If you don't discuss fees to release unlimited rights to use their logo BEFORE you sell the job, then I think it is going to backfire and a company that may already intend to continue to use your services, may instead become angry and alienated.
[ August 04, 2008, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
Exactly what Doug said. If you didn't work something out ahead of time that you own the rights to their logo, it'll be really tough to come back now and explain it to them at this point.
Also, I might be a little simple, but it's hard for me to imagine a company ever going for something like this in the first place. I know that I wouldn't and I'm even in the business... if I paid someone to design me a logo, I'm going to do whatever I want with it, and not have to call my sign guy before I get business cards printed or any other simple use.... most companies would be pretty leery about getting locked in with one sign company who can then charge them a premium price for everything they buy, since they can't shop it around (if they decide to).
Also, no matter what paper work is in place, if they decided they want exclusive rights to their own logo, which has their name in it and they paid you to design it for them... I have a feeling the court would lean in their direction.
However, I am not a lawyer, and I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night...
I guess my suggestion at this juncture would be to make sure you give them decent prices and outstanding service. Stay in touch with them and check with their managers every couple weeks by phone or email to see if they need anything. Go the extra mile, make sure it's easy for them to deal with you.... If you do that, all this will probably be a moot point.
Good luck and oh yeah... WELCOME TO LETTERVILLE!!
[ August 04, 2008, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: Jon Jantz ]
Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
Hiya Steve, and welcome aboard!
Call me a trouble maker, but, if you think it's worth it, get yourself a copyright attorney and get that design registered with the copyright office now!
Let me get this straight though, so you entered into an agreement to design a logo, but you didn't agree to a price for the logo design yet? And, the client also wants decals, signs and truck lettering with the design you created?
If so, follow Si's advice and charge as much as you can - with a straight face
Ultimately, what to charge and usage rights (you get all their sign work) really depends on what you and the client agreed upon when you initially closed the sale. If your terms and conditions weren't clearly defined, you may end up fighting a loosing battle.
Good luck,
Checkers
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Steve, I agree with Doug on this. His take on it is dead on.
What I do is charge separately for the design and provide a CD with a copy of the logo in all of the popular file formats.
The decals and anything else that I might do for them are then priced separately.
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
If you were contacted to design a logo with them, then you need to address logo design contract & usage before you design it. To now try to force them into using you exclusively isn't going to be received well and is poor business.
Make the customer WANT to return to you, not HAVE to return to you.
A logo design package includes a CD and a transfer I wrote up that basically says they own it & can use it in whatever way they see fit, but I retain the right to use it in my portfolio & other promotional venues.
Of course, I also offer shirts, letterhead, business cards, etc. and explain that if they're using me I'm either doing them in-house or using reputable vendors that I have existing relationships with and know the artwork I submit to them will be correct. If it isn't, it's my issue to get it corrected before they receive the items. If they go with some site they found online & the colors are incorrect, it's their problem to deal with them.
Now, if this were a design that you did for a job but didn't address it in advance as a "logo design" then that's a whole different ballgame, but requires egg-shell-walking to address. You either chalk it up to a learning experience or you carefully explain it was designed only for your use on that project & if they'd like to use it for their logo, then there will be a logo package fee that includes your converting it into various useful formats, which they can then have reproduced by whoever they see fit.
I always explain a logo design & if the customer doesn't or can't pay for it, then I retain ownership of the artwork (emphasize that several times) and as such, no one else can use it for anything, including doing any other work for them as it is MY artwork. But, they can always come back and purchase the logo package when they are in a better position to do so.
I got burned on 1 design I did. It was my fault. It was the kick in the butt I needed. I swore I would never allow that to happen again.
Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
I'm totally with Doug and Jon on this.
I remember when, in my ignorance, I allowed an ISP to register a domain for me... well, for themselves. They didn't tell me it was in their name. They didn't tell me I had lost the right to use it. They didn't tell me any of this until I wanted to change ISPs (they sucked). They held on to the domain as a tactic to keep me with them. It didn't work. Yes, they got to keep the domain, which was worthless to them. Since then I have always done my own domain registrations.
By the same token, I would NEVER agree to letting a designer hold me hostage with a logo. If they had already registered it, I would abandon it and get someone else to design it - even if it cost me more money. Changing the rules after the work is done is dirty. It's poor business. I hate it when someone tries to do it to me, and I wouldn't do it to someone else. If you know the logo is valuable, charge what it's worth, but tell the customer the price - UP FRONT. To do otherwise is cowardly in my opinion.
Posted by Steve Barnes (Member # 6125) on :
Thanks guys! I appreciate the feedback. I agree that it's too late and write it off as a learning experience,(I thought I was already "stump broke"...geesh)
I'll just keep smilin' and keep tellin' them what all that I can do for them and hope they call back. Matter-of-fact, they did call back with a big order today. (at least they're keeping me busy the first few weeks.) I already talked to them about a "logo package" on CD. So, that's a go!
I just want everybody to understand, I'm wasn't tryin' to rob anybody, just didn't want to get robbed myself. In these parts, a person's word is his bond. But, I'm messin' with "big city" guys from St. Louis, so, I'm treadin' on unlevel ground.
Thanks again, for the imput!
Posted by Bruce Evans (Member # 44) on :
I just don't understand why sign shops think that they should own a logo that a customer "PAYS THEM TO DESIGN". Are they hoping that their customer strikes it big and you'll suddenly reap rewards from their success?
If they pay you to design them a logo and you think that you own the logo, then what exactly did you give them for their money?
Charge them an appropriate amount of money for what you are doing for them and move on. It'll save you alot of anger and headache down the road.
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
It's less about a sign company trying to hold artwork hostage, and more about providing added value to clients. Hand 'em a disc and they lose it and you're still stuck having to handle everything, but market yourself as the place to go to get everything done RIGHT and on schedule, that makes things easier for the client and of more value to them. How many times have we released artwork to clients and some other company totally butchers it up? If a company wants to maintain a consistent image, it's worth the money to them if you can guarantee they will get exactly that.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
ANYTHING I DESIGN for a client, IS MINE, UNLESS THEY PAY for said design/logo. now that being said, situations arise all the time. we did a LOGO for a place downtown, painted it on the building, and the owner came to US, AND ASKED how much it would cost them to PURCHASE THAT LOGO for letterheads, shirts, advertizing. i made up a reciept with SALE OF DESIGN/LOGO. with that they OWNED IT. ialso gave them a CD WITH ALL POSSIBLE FORMATS of it. now on the other hand you got people like this: guy calls me wants a 4'x10' 4-5 color TRANSLUCENT VINYL to go on a lighted panel, and HE SENDS ME A 150 DPI JPG of said logo. well, it was a freind, so i didnt set a charge on it for THE MANY HOURS I SPENT REBUILDING IT INTO A CUTTABLE VECTOR. i did the job i was asked to do, got paid. i figured since it was a freind, next time he needed the logo cut, I WOULD GET THE WORK!!! dummy me. now i didnt design said logo, BUT I GOT TIME IN MAKING THE VECTOR..WHICH IS MY PROPERTY, unless he buys it!!! thats how i see it. he calles me one day said hey i need a favor. ok what cha got? you got the cutable logo dont cha? yes i do. can you send it over antother SIGN SHOP SO THEN CAN CUT IT, one of their cleints is givin me a truck to use at the track, and he wants it lettered. HE NEEDS TO BRING IT TO ME...i told him, i got 8-10 hours making that logo so it can be cut form that 150 DPI JPEG you gave me!!!!!! AND I WILL NOT GIVE IT TO ANOTHER SIGN SHOP FOR FREE!!! he says how much for the cutable logo, i told him $300 bucks covers my time....and talent. he dont talk to me any more......and they came up with a vector from someone else i guess or they built one!!!!
Posted by Steve Barnes (Member # 6125) on :
Old Paint sounds more like me, than I do!
I saw mentioned "design contract". Where do I find one of those? I like that idea.....
A quick check of the internet shows exclusive contracts are signed all the time. So, I don't understand why it would be a bad business move? We went through 12 different layout changes before they decided. All they were wanting was some "stickers". Now they want to use MY design on everything, they own. Would it be "good business" and not "cowardly" to just hand it over for the price of a few "stickers" and truck lettering, for the ego trip of designing a logo for a major player in this area? I'm past the ego thing, it doesn't pay the bills.
After 20 years in the biz, I have practactly every business's (in this small town) logo in my 'puter and (at least once a day) I'm asked to email a logo to some printer or shirt screener. How do ya'll charge for that, when you didn't design it in the first place? I'm Mr. Nice Guy, but it's getting old. Or, how about the guy who I messed with for 3 months, finaly did 2 4x8's, gave him a cd with his logos and building drawings. Now I see my designs everywhere, yet I haven't seen a dollar since the down payment.
Ahh, the life of a sign guy...ain't it grand?
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Start charging an archive fee for taking the time to dig out those files and get them ready for email. $25, $50, whatever. If you get one request every day that's a decent chunk of change coming in. Believe me, they'll bellyache, bitch and moan about it but their other option is to let someone else attempt to redraw it, butcher it, and they still gotta pay the other person for their hackjob. ie: it's worth a little money to them to have it done right.
With future clients, you can handle it up front by offering this service as a value added package and you'll be paid up front for it. It's much easier to say "Hey, I know you are going to need this artwork for this, that, and the other thing in the future, so I have this additional package available that provides everything you will need."
You can foresee the most common uses they'll have for the artwork and design a package for them, and show how the package deal costs them less money/headache for the same 10 (random number) uses if they handled them individually as the issues arise.
**Edited to add**
As far as reproducing their logo that someone else designed, you can sell that as a package too. You're not copying anything, you're building the means you need to produce the logo (digital file, pattern, etc.) from scratch, and you can offer the same artwork distribution service as above. If the original designer isn't providing similar media packages, they're not doing their job. Maybe they did offer it and the client didn't go for it at the time, but that doesn't matter as you have the opportunity to do it now.
[ August 05, 2008, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: Mike Pipes ]
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
i did send THE OTHER SIGN SHOP ......the 150 DPI JPEG....the originally gave me)))))))))))))) screw em....they then emailed me wanting a vector....i emailed them an invoice stating VECTORIZING FEE OF 150 DPI JPEG...$300.00 to be paid upon reciept of VECTORED LOGO FILE!!!! needless to say they didnt respond.)))))))))))
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
[ August 05, 2008, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
[ August 05, 2008, 04:24 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
Steve, I wasn't referring to you specifically when I made my remarks. But, this topic does come up fairly often, and I was expressing how I feel about it.
Here is the typical scenario: A customer comes in the door and wants some truck lettering, or some other type of sign. The sign guy wants to make sure he gets the job, so he doesn't plan to charge anything for doing the artwork. As far as the customer is aware, it's included in the price when they pay their bill. In the sign maker's mind he has done the customer a favor, and he hopes he will get more of their business. The customer likes the work and later they want to use the artwork for other things like t-shirts, business cards, letterhead, etc. They ask for a copy of the artwork to be sent to another vendor. The sign guy gets upset, and starts feeling used and abused. He mutters things under his breath about how customers have no sense of loyalty, and how they are probably going to make a fortune off the artwork, and possibly become the next Nike. He starts wondering if there is any legal means to make money from this service he just gave away for free. It's the same story, time after time, with not much variation.
The fix is simple: at the beginning of the conversation, tell the customer what your work is worth, and and what the approximate cost is going to be. If they walk out the door, you wouldn't want to do work for them anyway. If they want to go ahead, get a deposit. If they don't want to pay a deposit, let them go. You wouldn't want to work for them anyway. After the artwork is done and paid for, give them a disc with various file formats on it, and don't worry about what they are going to do with it. If they like working with you, chances are they'll be back. Tell them it will cost them $25, $50, or whatever you have decided on, to make them another disc.
If someone comes in with artwork that needs vectored, tell them it's going to take x number of hours to convert it, and it's going to cost $x. If they want it on a disc to take to other vendors, it will cost $x. If they want to go ahead, great. If not, you wouldn't want to work for them anyway.
When a customer comes into our shop looking for graphics, we can usually tell if they are going to need a logo. We don't necessarily take their word for it. They might say they don't need a logo, but the design starts taking that direction. We tell them we charge $300 minimum for a logo, regardless of how simple it is. We tell them that the cost is not included in the price of the sign.
If they have a logo already, but it's on a business card, or in a bitmap file, we tell them what it's going to cost for us to make it ready to cut. If it's an easy logo to recreate, we will likely just build it into the production cost of the sign. If it's going to take some time the customer will want to know before we do the work. They may not be prepared to pay to have it done.
If we talk about it at the beginning, there are no hard feelings. If they feel they can't afford something, they just leave. On the other hand, if we don't discuss the extra cost of the logo until after it's designed and the graphics are on the truck, we can't be surprised if the customer makes a fuss. Treat the customer like you would want to be treated. Give them the info that they need to make a good choice.
Some people are able to negotiate exclusive contracts. More power to them. If you can keep the customer satisfied with an exclusive contract, great. The customer will still want to know what they're getting into before the work is done and the invoice is presented.
If your work is valuable, don't give it away. If you give something away, don't expect the customer to value it.
If you want to retain some control of the artwork, make the customer aware of your intentions at the beginning.
Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
Oops! Double post.
[ August 05, 2008, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: Russ McMullin ]
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
heck i did 3.....its the server not us))))
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Hear!Hear! Russ... You are very much in the 'Legal Zone.'
You cannot "pick their pockets" after you have made an arrangement of price for the jobs done. 'Contracts', all forms needed to be filled out before starting the project.
[ August 05, 2008, 07:48 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Deveau ]
Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
I don't care what anyone says, I feel Russ has perfectly laid out how it often works, and also the proper solution.
I can hardly believe there is a business in existence that would allow a sign company to design them a logo, pay them for it (a little or a lot) and then let them retain the rights to it so that they are the only ones that can produce it.
That would be insane. I can almost promise you it would not work with any company who can afford a lawyer.
Now charging a fee to send it to Joe Blow's Embroidery Shop or to provide it to the customer in vector formats on disk is totally understandable. But to say that if they get mad at you at some point, no-one else can ever reproduce their logo that is on all their trucks and signs is not going to fly.... whether they specifically paid you for it or not.
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
Steve, check your email, sent ya a pdf of my logo design contract.
Also: Get Dan Antonelli's 2 books on logo design. I think the second one (blue) focuses more on selling a logo than the first (red) but if you're ordering one, order them both!
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
First of all, have you been compensated for your time in designing this logo? If the answer is yes, I would let them have it and go on. When you design a logo, you are supposed to sell it to them from the beginning...BEFORE you start designing it. If you failed to do that, and just sold them some stickers or whatever, they don't really own the logo. But what are you going to do now? You got the cart before the horse. You could tell them that you legally own it since you did not charge them for it, but in most cases, especially if they are rednecks, they aren't going to see it that way.
"Design time" seems to be an abstract concept to most customers. You might try asking them to pay you for your design time and in return, you should provide them with digital files of the logo in several formats, including vector. Then you need to wipe your hands of the whole deal. They may agree to do this. But if they don't, you could forbid them to use it, but that ain't going to set well at all. I definitely wouldn't try to "hold it hostage". That is just not the right way to do things.
Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
Hey Steve, Copyright laws are governed at the federal level and knowing them will only help you and your client... www.copyright.gov Also, because contract laws vary from state to state, you should work with your attorney to develop a contract (or sales agreement) that meets the needs of your business. An overly done design contract is available here... http://www.aiga.org/content.cfm/standard-agreement It's designed in a way that you can add or subtract certain components of the contract to meet the needs of you and your client. Another important part of your contract is the terms and conditions... http://www.aiga.org/resources/content/2/5/0/6/documents/standard_terms_conditions.pdf Some additional, and perhaps useful, information is available here... http://www.sessions.edu/career_center/design_tools/freelance_templates/index.asp For the record, the proper term for "holding a design hostage" is licensing, which protects the designer and the client from unauthorized use and/or abuse of your designs. Licensing is a common practice used by many organizations and artisans to insure that they are properly compensated for the value of their intellectual property when it is displayed or reproduced, whether it's for profit or otherwise. I agree with the others, it is best to be paid a logo design fee and be done with the project. However, there can be circumstances that make your design worth a lot more than the use it was originally intended and I feel you should be compensated accordingly.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
The difference I see between licensing and holding something hostage is how the agreement is negotiated. If I wait to tell my client about my plans to license the artwork AFTER everything has been approved, designed, installed, and invoiced, then I consider it a hostage situation. The customer has already invested time and planning into this identity, and now I'm using that leverage to get more money out of them. I don't think that is good business, and it certainly isn't a win for the customer.
As others have said, I don't see why any company would agree to let a designer dictate how their identity is used on a day to day basis. On the other hand, I can see a designer making a contract for compensation if the business adds locations, or turns into a franchise.
When I have done illustration work for magazines I have always held onto the original artwork, as well as the rights to produce it. The magazine gets one-time rights, or one year exclusive rights, or whatever we decide up front. After that, I can license rights to someone else.
Posted by Steve Barnes (Member # 6125) on :
Hey guyz, Thanks for all the input, but it was Kissy who supplied me with artillery that I had never seen b4. "I B da man" now....armed and dangerous with a contract and an idea on protecting my work. Thanks Kissy!
I may have gotten burnt on this one..(juries still out) but dang-nabbit... I ain't ever gonna look that hog in the eye the same way again....it'll be up front, paid for and legal from now on!!!
Now if I could only read those big words in the contract............. Thanks Guys!! Look for me in the future ..I like this place!
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
quote:Originally posted by Steve Barnes: ... I ain't ever gonna look that hog in the eye the same way again....
Now that's new one on me.
Granny always said "bought wit's the best wit"
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Lock, Sign & Seal. 'the Deal!'
[ August 06, 2008, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Deveau ]
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Oh! Did I mention "Barcodes or WaterMarks?"
If all the proper 'Paperwork' is filled out.
Posted by Nikki Goral (Member # 7844) on :
Chris,
Would you mind sharing your document?
Thanks!
Posted by Tim Rieck (Member # 1699) on :
There is however, the case where you are asked to design a sign for a store fascia. You come up with something pleasing but simple with a simple graphic. You send the artwork for approval, and the cost to produce the fascia sign. Your artwork is marked "All designs are İYour Company, usage is limited". You get the job, and any deposit, or whatever your shop policy is for payment. You are still only making a fascia sign.
Now, at this point, your client wishes to make this his identity, or logo and use it on everything. Well, you haven't sold them those rights yet. They are for sale, but your customer hasn't paid for that. You were just paid to make a fascia sign. What do you do?
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Tim This is were you seperate the 'Graphic Design and the Sign.'
2 different animals. I have been burnt in the past with this.
Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
Tim, I would only charge them what it would take to put together the corporate ID package. That is to make them some slicks, a few CD's of various formats, and a page that lists all their colors. This can be a nice price...
To charge a large sum for the design itself at that point does not seem like it would sit well with the customer. You should have been paid to do the design already. If it was not a separate item in the bill, it should have been built into the price of the sign. Otherwise you're basically giving them something for free, in the hopes they were going to show a lot of interest in it and you could charge an exorbitant price for this 'corporate identity' later.
It goes back to the what has been repeated... it seems like this would all be better discussed ahead of time. I can't see it building good customer relations to wait until the customer orders more signs or other items with the design you created, and then to tell him "I own the rights to your logo and it's going to cost you 1000 bucks for the design before I make anything else for you..."
Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tim Rieck: Well, you haven't sold them those rights yet. They are for sale, but your customer hasn't paid for that. You were just paid to make a fascia sign.
Did they know the rights were for sale? If our customers come in empty handed, we give them the logo talk. They might say they don't need a logo, but if it starts looking like something they would use for an identity, we give them the logo talk.
If we are making something unique, we should see the potential before the customer does. Even if we don't, we should always be paid for design time.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
they aren't going to see it that way.