This is not really a rant; it's a reflection on the past and where this crazy business is going. For once I'm going to actually post something on the topic of signs and will try my best to keep my humor at bay.
I was thinking recently about "back in the day" when I hand lettered, airbrushed, gilded, carved, sandblasted, etc, etc. I'm talking 20+ years ago before Darth Vinyl reared his ugly head. There were many days I had "thousand dollar days"; I'm talking production, not sales. My average ticket was several hundred dollars. That's not great for cash flow but it did keep the wolves away from the door. I worked out of a studio behind my house. My cost of goods sold for one of those $1,000 days would be approximately $100. I can't begin to tell you how many hundreds of thousands of dollars I've made with a simple sign kit containing a few pints of One Shot, a few dozen nice brushes, some thinner, oil, pounce bags, pencils, a couple of bean cans and some Cool Whip lids (my favorite palette) and a roll of white butcher paper that seemed to last forever.
Contrast that with todays sign shop. I only do small stuff - by choice. I don't do lighted signs, neon or tatoos; I do banners, coro signs, magnetics, vehicle lettering, digital graphics and and a rare sandblasted sign. I've got close to $100,000 worth of assets to do that piddly stuff. I used to do an average of $130,000/yr part time, working on the base as a journeyman aircraft sheet metal mechanic. When I went full time, I was cranking out $160,000/yr average - by myself and some part time help. I have a competitor selling digital work in the $3 sq/ft range. For the last 12 years I've been charging $5 sq/ft for cut vinyl from a $2,000 plotter. Call me stupid but spending $15,000 or so for a printer and selling it for half of what the market will bear for cut vinyl is just dumb. I've had my Summa plotter for about 6 years and it'll probably be another 6 years before I have to replace it. That $15,000 printer? ...maybe 3 years.
Are some people in this business so stupid that they think such business practices will work? Is there some cosmic brain virus that gives people the notion that "If I can cut everyone's prices by 70% I'll get all the business."? Every year we are faced with new half-page, full-color yellow page ads featuring several new "sign companys". They last an average of about 3-4 months. Every one of them have the novel idea of lowballing us and putting us out of business then raising their prices up to where the market is. Sorry suckas, we're too smart and well entrenched for that little trick; we're going to outlast you just like we did the 4 shops last year and the ones the year before and the year before that.
I realize this may sound like a rant but I don't mean it to be that at all. Where I am going with this is "Where the heck is this crazy business headed?" It seems that all these new "sign shops" are infected with the age old snapper mentality. It didn't work then and it won't work now. It used to really tick me off to see my towns windows snapped by some hack, working out of his car, thinning his paint with gasoline, using nothing but one stroke casual for everything. Yeah they got it cheap but it made my town ugly and my customers suddenly thought I was Jesse James.
It just bothers me to have to outlast 3-4 hacks every year. Our prices are not up to where they should be but we have to duke it out with all of them - even the hacks. Customers are idiots; most of them can't find their fanny with both hands much less know the difference between a good sign and a bad one. They want a sign with red copy on a blue background, all Old English caps, 6 lines, condensed to about 30%. ...and they saved $3 over my price!!!!!
Anybody got an ideas? Chinese anyone? Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Heheheheheeee....sure sounds like a rantto me!
Posted by John Arnott (Member # 215) on :
Ricky. This is my 30th year in the business. I dido everything you said.
Posted by bruce ward (Member # 1289) on :
KUDOS!!!
I was talking with another sign man the other week about how things have changed. i would spend 4 days on a box van with lettering enamels and airbrush and LOVED IT! Now i slap vinyl on the side of a truck and they are off in 3 hours.
BUT thnaks to technology (which I fought tooth and nail) I have progressed into larger more complex signs. i sub out the lighted stuff and dont think a thing about it. after all i design it and sell it. I never imagined one day we would create junk in flexi, fine tune it in illustrator and then send it off to the printers. i cant imagine where the technology will go next
i still dig holes and build structures. i still climb and occasionally will paint large walls and murals. I do enjoy that. I shun the small stuff UNLESS its an existing customer. I dont letter banners anymore, they are all printed or they can go else where.
as far as customers being idiots, they are. Here they would rather buy crap than quality (sometimes). and its all price driven. I can say thins though I dont get all the bids and Im often asked why are you so much higher? when you show then that YOU are offering aluminum and the competition is offering coroplast they still dont get it....the only thing to do is move on to the next customer.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Its not just this industry. Its everywhere.
My mother went to her hairdresser today to get her hair done. She hadn't been all that happy with the hairdresser lately and decided to go to the one my wife visits.
She commented on the fact that the "stylist" that my wife uses charges 3 times as much and has a 6 month waiting list.
The "stylist" she's not entirely happy with cost less and she can schedule an appointment within a few days.
I grinned. Mom had been worried about our shop prices and how she had heard comments from others how expensive and "slow" we were and had been hounding me about how we need to be more competitive. She also commented how a couple of the shops had begun advertising in the newspaper and recently revamped their shop trucks.
I have about a 4-6 week waiting list. I worked the entire weekend plus Memorial Day trying to do a little catching up.
Two sales reps had told me this past week that the other shops in my area are crying the blues and that one of them just layed-off an employee.
My mom had a difficult time understanding the correlation between the hairdresser situation and ours. She eventually got it.
**********
Rick,
IMHO, the problem you have is because of how you chose to position yourself in your market.
There are two service stations around the corner from my house. The first station looks clean and spotless compared to its competitor. But, it also sells gas for a nickel a gallon higher. I go to the cheaper station. Why do a want to pay a nickel a gallon more than I have to. Gas from either station is going to do the job. A well swept area just isn't worth the extra $1.50 spent on a tank of gas.
Banners and coroplast signs aren't any different to a lot of people. Their perceived value isn't exactly all that high. As such, people are going to shop price. You may have the talent of Rembrandt, but it isn't going to matter. A banner and coroplast simply aren't that big a deal in their eyes. Anyone can do them. Anyone!
In your own words, you've chosen to limit yourself to that market. And, that market is telling you what its willing to pay.
Ideas? Go back and review what Dan Antonelli has been preaching in his books and SignCraft articles.
And as silly as this sounds, see if you can catch "Peter Perfect" on the Style channel. The points he's trying to make in that silly get-up of his are dead on.
Chevy, Buick and Cadillac. They're all made by the same company, each to a different market. They all do the same basic thing. Each markets a different image.
You're not going to get Cadillac customers and Cadillac prices when the only thing you offer is a Chevy.
.
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
Ricky, you're one of the few people that I truly know has the talent to have done all these things you've mentioned and only yesterday I was speaking to one of your old friends whom you haven't spoken to in many years and he said he is doing better than he has in years. I don't rant too often about my dilemma and the fact that in my hay day I've pulled in an average of around 700 per day and I guess thats because I don't give a crap what others charge or what they're doing, I can go against the best of them and still come out on top. All my work is done by hand and I've never seen the need to go digital except for selling my used stuff on Ebay.
I think the best is yet to come and one must figure out what one truly needs otherwise you'll just be bucking horns and not going anywhere, I call it the happy medium. I normally live a stress free life with little cash but yet still have everything money could buy. Today I have more than I did yesterday and find myself almost in a quagmeyer with little space to put it all. I think we just all need to work it out by ourselves but with contact of our old friends to let them know we're still doing what we started out doing and we're still together.
The best is yet to come Posted by Dawud Shaheed (Member # 5719) on :
I consider myself a newcomer to signmaking. I've been doing signs in some from or another since 1998. During those years I was probably the "snapper" that Ricky was talking about but we all start somewhere. The way I've stayed competitive in todays market is service. I consider my business a service and I treat it as such. I don't wait around for people to call me. I actively pursue their business out in the field everyday. Everyone has their niche. I travel a lot. Work different areas. Go up and down the east coast painting windows whenever I can get on the road. I guess it's not the good ole days anymore, but I'm only 33 yrs old and I don't remember the good ole days. I have a huge respect for the old masters of this trade, but reality is it's a different world and the rules have changed across the board, not just in this business.
Well, the truth is. signmakers with talent will always outshine the helvetica hacks who stretch their lines of text into a skewed unreadable oblivion. I'm not one of those talented signmakers, but I have the pleasure to learn from and be among some here. The customers aren't going to always be on our level, but we can educate them on our program one by one. Some of them will appreciate talent and others won't. The way I see it is hacks gotta eat too and so do talented signmakers. The good thing is there's plenty of bounty on to go around on God's green earth.
Posted by Dale Feicke (Member # 767) on :
Wow, Ricky, this is good; and I agree with most of what everyone has said. I am with you completely about how stupid some of these newcomers are about leaping headlong into technology.
It's always amazed me how, in almost any town, you see some 'quickee' sign shops advertising "Magnetic Signs - $39 set" (maybe less). Or they do coro 4 X 8's for $60. At the same time, they're paying franchise fees, $2000 a month in rent, outlandish prices for inks and supplies for printers, vinyls, etc. It's no wonder why so few make it. I had a friend that this happened to. He used to do printing for me....worked 80+ hours a week, and could just manage to stay open. He finally closed up and is working out of a garage.
But that's the way it is with so many today. They want it cheap; they want it now; and they really don't care if it's going to last for 5 or 7 years, because they probably won't be around for that long anyhow. I can remember years ago, listening to a representative from the Small Business Administration at school, telling about how when you start a small business, you would take up to 5 years to tell if it was going to make it, and maybe not really make any money up to that point. Shoot...today businesses come and go on a monthly basis, and I guess someone loses a bunch of money in the process.
I'm going to stay as I am. I have a good clientele; enough work to pay the bills and have a little left over; hardly any overhead; and peace because of it. I love what I do, having gotten into it for that reason, and not just to make a buck. And, as exciting as all this new technology looks on the surface, not all change is for the better. You've got to prepare for it.
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
Ricky, it's not just the sign industry. Between my sign shop & accounting clients, I have learned that there are people in every industry who should not be business owners.
Some are self-employed because they're just too dumb for anyone to hire them.
I've said it for years....
* EVERY business should have to have a business license.
* In order to get said license, the applicant must first take an IQ test.
* The IQ test must prove that their IQ is in fact a positive number.
Posted by jake snow (Member # 5889) on :
I think Mr. Jackson needs a nap
Don't waste your energy bitchin cooter....use it coming up with something new....wait a minute, what the hell am I saying...
Keep bitchin cooter! Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
I've commented at length on this subject in the past, and in doing so I've boiled it down to this - in this business, like any other, you get the business you go after. If you pursue quickie banners, coro yard signs and stickers, that's the business you will get - and you'll fight for them in the gutter, price wise. On the other hand, if you actively pursue quality, design-based work for discerning clients, you'll find them, and they'll pay the prices that YOU - not your competitor - sets. You won't get every job, but every job will make you money. So how do you do that? One. Invest in skills rather than equipment. There's a new latest/greatest digital printer or router on the market every week, and obsolete in two years. Instead, invest in skills that are NEVER obsolete. Two. Put yourself out in the market; have everything - your vehicle, cards, brochures and website - screaming "QUALITY". Three. Set the terms under which you do business. Don't let nickel-pinchers waste your time, or gutter-level competitors set your prices. And four. PERFORM. I'm convinced that the real reason a lot of sign people don't pursue higher end work is they don't want to be held responsible to what they perceive as a more demanding client. The reality is the opposite - its the cheap, whining nickel pinchers who are demanding. Not about quality, but about prices and scheduling, plus they are always looking for an angle, some way to beat you. Their real goal isn't to get a sign, or to save money, but to tell themselves that they got into your shorts and got away with it. On the other hand, clients who look for quality work tend to appreciate the value of quality, but for their money they really WANT quality, and you have to be able to provide it.
End of lecture. Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
A cosmic brain virus... Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
Ricky Ricky Ricky, we have lead Parallel Lives we really have, the exact same background, and even now the same situation.. it doe'snt matter where you live, there are always Tools, that's what we call them.. "Tools".
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
As the old Nursery Rhyme says!
3 little Piggies
1... made a house out of Hay. 1... made it out of Clay! 1... made it out of Bricks! -------------------------------------------- I do not make signs anymore, but designs only. --------------------------------------------
I let the 3 Pigs decide how to make the final project.
I sell my design talent and let the rest of them fight on the pricing.
'Mark Up and Graphic Price' is all I need.
Posted by Jane Diaz (Member # 595) on :
Only problem is, Stephen, the pigs used straw, sticks and bricks (I used to be storyteller/puppeteer at the library). Posted by Ricky Jackson (Member # 5082) on :
Cam I think you read me 100%. I know I'm not the best communicator in the world but you somehow got what I was trying to say. The short answer from you is "market positioning" like Glenn said.
I've done both, the quickie stuff and I had a custom sign shop where I did the high end work, almost never a day without at least one gold leaf job in the shop. It would be a gross understatement to say that doing the high end, high priced stuff was the most satisfying. But honestly, I was never able to really make any money until I got into the franchise and focused on the quickie stuff - not that it's bad design or anything; I still use my skills and everything we put out is very well designed - just not overdone. We give them their moneys worth but I don't shoot for the goal of making them have to change their shorts like I used to in the custom business. The cash flow is much better in this too and I don't feel like I'm married to a job.
I just took a $600 order for some coro signs this morning (had a customer pick up a sandblasted sign and pay his $1,300 balance, had another come in for a pre-made car graphic) and we will knock out the coro signs today with ease and have them on Monday. They are a first time customer so the signs will have maybe a little extra effort in them and they'll never go anywhere else when I call them Monday morning and tell them they are ready. I used to pride myself on being the most expensive and if I found out that someone was charging more than me I'd go up.
I guess I wrote this because, like you, I need to write things out to boil them down. I also like to see the ideas of others and see if a consensus forms.
Neil, I'm blessed if I've shared a parallel life with you my friend and you're right about the tools; it's all just tools.
Posted by Lee McKee (Member # 3533) on :
I'm just waiting for the day computers Fail us.
How many people out there can Really DO something? I mean handcrafted anything. We relie so heavily on computers and other time saving devices that if someone HAD to do put pencil to paper and divide a couple numbers in long hand most could not do it. If we HAD to letter that sign by hand who could do it? Not your local cut-throat vynull jockey. We say its a tool because for many of us it is just a tool, But, for MANY people in our industry it is a CRUTCH. Without it they would not be able to even being to call themselves signmakers.
But, Perhaps Stephen is Right in that we mearly need to charge more for our art. I normally tell customers that ask why they can go down the street and get their sign half price that they are paying for my ART... The "sign" is actually FREE. It just confuses them a little untill they pick up the P.O.S. from the guys down the street.
[ May 30, 2008, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: Lee McKee ]
Posted by Dawud Shaheed (Member # 5719) on :
Yep, if the computers crashed I'd be swinging the brushes and 3" rollers like I do most of the time anyway.
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Thank you Jane... for your correction on my typo error.
But you did get my drift on what I was saying.
And I agree with Lee McKee. Let others fight for the sign work as long as I get paid for the design work.
Dawud I have more then 50,000 dollars in Pencils Airbrushes and Brushes and Paint if needed to be used. The computer is only one other tool I will use in life. But I never depend on it all together.
I will, and always have done a storyboard sketch on paper or board first.
Have the customer sign it off and go on their merry way for price shopping.
So you see Ricky! One man cannot build a house by himself.
Use the competition as a tool and mark up the price for your involvement.
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