Lately I have been making my own brackets for hanging signs, partly because whats available off the shelf from the sign supplier is junk and partly because i want to give the customer the choice. I just been wondering what others use to turn the scrolls. Anybody got any input?
Posted by Jake Lyman (Member # 3280) on :
Ken if you figure it out let me know I have been trying to do that to, I even bought scroll bender that we can't make work.
King architectural metals has scrolls you can buy and make fit, I have done that but would like to be able to make my own.
JAKE
Posted by captain ken (Member # 742) on :
what I have been doing is clamping a length of pipe down to the bench, with a slot cut in the end, slip the end of the steel in the slot and just walk around the bench a few times, no science yet, I have also seen people who have changeable pins set into the bech so the scroll is a specific size. I guess the scroll bender is similar
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
I use the caminator.
Posted by Curt Stenz (Member # 82) on :
I know of a guy in this area that can fabricate anything. He does a lot of wroght iron work for builders. He stocks all sorts of cast steel things like acorns, ornamental scrolls ans has catalogs of all the stuff. I just supply him with a full size pattern of a bracket drawn on cardboard and he bends it up to match. He makes them plenty heavy duty, paints them and even installs for me. I never hagel on price, pay him right away and he serves me well. He is a real resource. However, I do wish I knew how to weld, I would try a bracket myself.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
[ February 29, 2008, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
Posted by Duncan Wilkie (Member # 132) on :
Doug, that's a great link. Thanks for posting it!
Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
Doug, just when I'm getting caught up on my bills, you have to show us that. Now, I'm going to be spending more money! I know, I'll tell Sophie it's going to make us money...
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
did you guys check out the videos too?
My subconscious known I was going to meet grandpa Dan... so last month, all of a sudden I bought a mig welder... a metal cutting saw... and a bunch of other cool tools... including looking into this bender...
Sure enough, at Dan's shop last week, on top of helping me line up everything else on my extensive router-related tool shopping list...
Dan gave me a little welding training last week too... now I want a plasma cutter too... and maybe an anvil & a bunch of other cool tools.
[ March 01, 2008, 12:44 AM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
Posted by Jake Lyman (Member # 3280) on :
That scrol bender has the parts on top mine doesn't I think I know what i will be buying next
[ March 01, 2008, 08:08 AM: Message edited by: Jake Lyman ]
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
What you need is one of these. All you have to do is get a degree in mechanical engineering (5 years) and take an apprenticeship program in machining (3 to 5 years) and you can build one for yourself. Posted by Dana Stanley (Member # 6786) on :
Doug is right I have a bender like he the one he mentioned and its great. Not only does it do the scrolls you can make all kinds of brackets for hanging signs too.
Posted by Laura Butler (Member # 1830) on :
We bought a scroll bender similiar to Doug's link at Harbor Freight. Works good.
[ March 02, 2008, 10:44 PM: Message edited by: Laura Butler ]
Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
That sure does look like fun. It's one more thing on the list of cool tools to buy.
Those quickie bendy machines must be driving metal fabricators crazy: "Everyone is a do-it-yourselfer these days!. Sign makers think they can just buy a little machine and make ornamental scrolls overnight. What would they think if I bought a plotter and started doing signs? Makes me sick!! Grrrr!"
Posted by captain ken (Member # 742) on :
Sorry Russ, didnt think I was stepping on the toes of the starving metal fabricators in my area, just figured it as part of the sign business, and to be honest all the local metal guys look at these and want to order pieces from King Metal catalog and weld em together, seems like they cant be bothered hand turning scrolls. looking at the work of Mike Jackson and others featured in Signcraft and it seems an artists spent some time designing a bracket that works in harmony with the sign. Thats all I want to do with this little machine. oh, yeah... happy birthday.
Cam, you know I love your product, and i can see now how you make such high quality heavy duty brackets, that machine looks like its got a 2 hp motor, and can do quite a few designs, do you have different dies that go on the side there? those look like a machine shop spent some serious time on em. I also hope you know I aint trying to step on your toes either... I have used your brackets on big signs in the past, the are of the highest quality and extremely heavy duty. Im looking to produce a more medium duty bracket. I certainly aint looking to go into the sign bracket business.
Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
I hope you know I was making a joke Ken. I couldn't care less what the metal fabricators think. That toy looks like fun, and I want one. I was designing a bracket last week, and the metal guys up the street said they can do it. But, it's still something I'd like to try my hand at - qualified or not.
Posted by Robert Larkham (Member # 2913) on :
Ken, I own one almost like Doug displayed. Paid abot $150. Works great.
Posted by Robert Larkham (Member # 2913) on :
Ken, I'll sell you mine for 1 hundy.
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
I was just having a little fun with you, Ken.
The DOMinator came from a local metalworker, who had designed and built it for himself back in the sixties. It is an entirely custom-made machine; you can't buy one off a shelf. It has a big three-phase electric motor, which I've never used - I just turn the hand crank, which is sufficient for the quarter-inch stock I work with. Dom says it can bend steel up to half-inch by two inches, which is a lot more massive than anything I would ever need.
There aren't any other dies. It produces different size scrolls depending how far the die is turned. That makes the variation almost infinite, but still allows me to make multiple pieces with identical scrolls.
I never considered doing brackets for myself while Dom was in business; I just designed what I wanted and Dom would build it. But when he announced he was finally going to sell everything and retire at the early age of 82, I realized I was going to lose my source of good brackets. So I bought the DOMinator from him, along with several other tools (a metal saw, an arbor press, a welder and a bunch of hand tools), and after I figured out how to build brackets, started selling them to other signshops. My only rule was I wouldn't build or sell any bracket that I wouldn't be willing to use for my own signs.
As for smaller, lighter brackets for smaller signs, just ask. Damn near anything I can make would be better than the flimsy junk most of the sign suppliers carry. Sure, mine cost more. But because I design and build signs I understand the requirements of a sign bracket a lot better than a manufacturer who thinks a sign bracket is nothing more than some kind of glorified plant hanger. Posted by captain ken (Member # 742) on :
Hey Cam, You? having fun with me? don't forget I still got the 'beer for breakfast' photos... the Dominator seems like a fine piece of equipment, and a true score on your end. I was trying to design someting that used a garage door motor mounted sideways to a pedestal with changable pins for different size scrolls, not sure if the motor would have the torque it needs to turn the metal, seems some of the others will only accept 3/4" stock, which would be great for plant hangers... I wonder if there is a big market for plant hangers in New England... i can see it now... Captain Ken's House of Hangersstrong enough to hold up ficus to forsithia's finally I could get out of this tipst turvy sign business! Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
Ken, I wasn't saying that YOU are building glorified plant hangars! But you've seen the pitiful crap the suppliers call scroll brackets. $18.95 for a four-foot long bracket, and worth about half that. Posted by captain ken (Member # 742) on :
You mean the ones you get from like Grimco, that have flat washers welded on thin 3/4" stock and a thin backplate with 2) 1/4" holes for mounting. I MIGHT hang a small house plant off one of them, maybe a coroplast sign. Then they got the ones with the twisted square stock. when you drive down the main street and see 5 of these in a row, you know its time to get creative in the bracket dept. these things go for like 40 - 50 bucks, they aint worth it, and man they are ugly. I want freedom to make a bracket that fits my needs, enhances the sign, that I can design & produce.
Posted by Robert Larkham (Member # 2913) on :
The brackets Cam builds you could hang a car off off....awesome brackets. The brackets my small bender makes will hold up small hanging signs say 75 pounds and smaller. Even though it will only bend 3/4 inch by 1/8 inch, if designed right and welded properly you can build more than a plant hanger. The strength comes in how you put the scrolls together sort of like building a suspension bridge. It's something I don't use very often now that I'm out of business but a neat tool to have. Should no one want it it will sit on my shelf until I need to make something cool.
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
Jezus, those things are ugly - but then, they generally go along with the signs that hang on them.
When my first ad for brackets came out, the company that sells those "screw brackets" called me. They were looking for someone to manufacture them - including powder coat - for under $10 apiece. Apparantly their previous fabricator had gone out of business. Wonder why?
That conversation was an interesting glimpse into the underbelly of the sign-accessory business. I was told my brackets were way too expensive, that the majority of signmakers were - and I quote - "too cheap and stupid" to pay for quality. The overall opinion was that I was an idiot who knew nothing about the sign business.
Well, you know what? On one level he was right. My brackets have never been big sellers. I had supposedly honest and upstanding sign makers steal my designs and have them made by other metal workers, to save money, and then see at least one of those brackets appear in SignCraft. I had people on this forum and others, who had never seen or handled one of my brackets, call me a thief and other, less flattering names. It's been quite an education, let me tell you.
But you know what? I'm still here. The brackets are a sideline business; that's all it was ever meant to be. I am, first and foremost, a sign painter, who happens to make brackets on the side. The equipment is paid for, so when someone orders a bracket I go and build one. One at a time, to order. I don't have to set up a factory, or a production line, or oversee a group of employees, in order to produce them at a quantity and price that will compete with the bracket in the picture above.
So what do my customers get, for their money? Well, they get my personal attention. They get asked how big their sign is, how much it weighs, what kind of wall it is going on. They get to decide how far apart the hangars are, and that the hangars are stainless steel, instead of a tack-welded washer. They get a bracket that fits the sign, that won't sag or break, that won't p*ss rust stains down the face, and most of all, that if they have half a brain when they install it, won't pull off the wall in the first bad windstorm. As an added bonus, they are unique - you won't see the same bracket over and over, everywhere you look.
I applaud Ken or anyone else who wants to do their own metalwork to get a unique look. Its fun and challenging and creative, and that's what this trade is supposed to be, isn't it? Otherwise we might as well go work in a cubicle and suck wind with the rest of the yuppies. Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
I have one of your brackets Cam, on a sign you sent me from a Letterville auction. It's very nice looking, and solid as a rock.
Posted by Robert Larkham (Member # 2913) on :
Yes, Cam it does suck when someone steals your design/invention. As you know I invented the Pro-Pallet. I used to distribute them through a brush company advertised on here. They decided to cut out the middleman and make them themselves. I was not happy to say the least. Karma is a funny thing.
Posted by Brad Gebert (Member # 7610) on :
Wow, a post that's right up my alley!
After all the Sign Bracket Slamming that has happened on this post, I'm almost afraid to stand up and say;
"HI! My Name is Brad, and I own Hooks and Lattice. A company that specializes in manufacturing Standard and Custom wrought iron and aluminum sign brackets" http://www.SignBracketStore.com
Well the cat is out of the bag now! Here are a a few pictures of our standard wrought iron scroll sign brackets. All of these brackets are powder coated in our facility and customs brackets can be made in 2-3 weeks.
Our Milano Scroll Bracket in 30", 40" & 50" sizes in stock. Notice the hand hammered ends on the solid square bar. It's a great bracket for Ovals and Round Signs.
Our Verona Illuminata, like most of our brackets can be made with a light kit to light the sign from both sides. Again, all ends are hand hammered giving it the true old world wrought iron charm.
Classic with Ball Finial- One of the strongest standard brackets that we stock.
To Everyone on Letterhead-- This is not a side business for Hooks and Lattice. It is our main business and we hope to become your source for high quality affordable sign brackets.
Sign companies get an additional discount off our website prices.
To Captain Ken, If you buy a bracket made by Hooks and Lattice and still think it's "JUNK" I'll give you a 110% refund. http://www.SignBracketStore.com Posted by Miles Cullinane (Member # 980) on :
Brad, nice to see you on the board, Welcome!
Can I ask a question which I have always wanted to ask of someone who makes the kind of brackets you are showing in the photos. Why don't you have a piece coming out from left and right of the vertical bar to act as a restrainer. I show a picture of a sign a friend, Tómas Tuipéar designed and painted. you can see that the wind won't make that sign loosen. But your brackets can over time.
this is just a question not a bashing
Posted by Brad Gebert (Member # 7610) on :
Hey Miles, That's a nice looking sign & bracket.
Great question! We never have, becasue we've never been ask to provide additional horizontal supports. It wouldn't add much to the cost of the bracket, just to the cost of boxing and shipping it.
We do make all of our outdoor brackets with a 3" wide backplate that does provide addtional support over some of the "LESS EXPENSIVE" brackets on the market. If someone wants additional support we'd be happy to make the sign bracket that way.
All you have to do is get a degree in mechanical engineering (5 years) and take an apprenticeship program in machining (3 to 5 years) and you can build one for yourself. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Bash]](graemlins/bash.gif)
![[Rolling On The Floor]](graemlins/rolf.gif)
when you drive down the main street and see 5 of these in a row, you know its time to get creative in the bracket dept. these things go for like 40 - 50 bucks, they aint worth it, and man they are ugly. I want freedom to make a bracket that fits my needs, enhances the sign, that I can design & produce.
![[Mad]](mad.gif)
I had people on this forum and others, who had never seen or handled one of my brackets, call me a thief and other, less flattering names. It's been quite an education, let me tell you. ![[For Your Information]](graemlins/fyi.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
