I recently did a dimensional sign for a good customer of ours. Raised prismatic letters on a dark green background, letters have a black outline.
The complaint from the customer is that at certain times of the day and at night with the spot light, he can't read the sign because it's "too brilliant".
BUT he loves the sign, loves the goldleaf. He just wants it fixed so it can be read.
I have never had that complaint before! Any suggestions???
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
I seem to recall in a Signcraft article where Mike Jackson ran into a similar problem. The client didn't like how bright the gold was on the carved eagle.
I think his solution was to put a coat of clear over the gold.
.
Posted by Curt Stenz (Member # 82) on :
possibly add some flatening paste to the clear to flatten it somewhat. Test first though!
Posted by Sonny Franks (Member # 588) on :
I've had great results with Clearstar CSX4500 semi-gloss. It cuts the gloss without losing color, and so far, absolutely no yellowing......
Posted by Bill Lynch (Member # 3815) on :
I also have this complaint with a lot of gold leaf signs, especially ones with lots of copy. I've started applying the leaf a little early to avoid a "mirror" finish. I too would try a clear, or just tell him it will dull a little with time. For clear I would use a two part marine clear or whatever you would use on a vehicle gold job. Also try adjusting the spotlight or replacing it with some less "spot" fixtures
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
One thing he can do very easily is use a lower-wattage lamp in his lights. Most people make the error of "more is better", and end up over-lighting gold leaf. Gold doesn't need a lot of light; it will look bright enough to read with a lot less light than you might think.
Try this before ruining your gild with a clearcoat, then report back and see if it helped.
Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
Buy him some Ray-Bans! Love....Jill
Posted by Monte Jumper (Member # 1106) on :
this is way too easy...use a lower watt bulb!
Posted by Chuck Peterson (Member # 70) on :
Also the angle of the lighting and distance from the sign can make all the difference.
Posted by thom miller (Member # 1845) on :
The lighting, I'm sure, can be fine tuned. But God has declined my request to adjust the sunlight for my sign during the day. (Perhaps Bruce Almighty can help with that one.)
It sounds like the clear coat is worth a try.
Posted by Monte Jumper (Member # 1106) on :
You never mentioned whether the sign is inside or out.
If it is our side I personally would never clear coat it...it will dull it down which I know you want to happen but it will also flake before to long.
Over a period of time just the dirt in the air will tone it down a bit...you also might try changing the burnish with a piece of velvet and put a brushed finish on it ...that way you can control (to a degree) the angle the light comes off the gold.
Most likely there is a time of day the glare is more intense...try to determin that then experiment with the burnish ...you might be surprised.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Thom,
I'd recommend contacting Mike Jackson at GoldenStudios.Com and ask him.
I personally have never had much luck with a durable clear on a sign beyond a couple years.
Posted by John Arnott (Member # 215) on :
Did you ever notice how good gold looks in the fog.
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
If you read the section in the LeBlanc book, the one Kent Smith keep updating, there is a section showing the way light is refracted in the tiny grooves created by burnishing. They show photographs of the difference between vertical and horizontal burnishing. I think you might be able to fix this problem by studying that section of the book and doing what you learn.
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
I will not change the course of the sun. Forget it. Ain't gonna happen.
Posted by Joe Crumley (Member # 2307) on :
Bruce has the right angle on the topic.
Steeper prism letters are hard to read. So my advice is, in the future, lower the angle. Even the slightest angle works great! A slight round overs also look good.
The same goes for V-Carve letters. Flatten out the angles.
Posted by thom miller (Member # 1845) on :
Thanks for all the advice & tips. Personally, I like the sign as is. While driving past the sign, the angle changes quickly, so the problem of too much refletion is very brief.
But, in the end, it's the customer who needs to be happy.
His comment to me was this: "All the signs you have done for us in the past have exceeded our expectations. This is the first time we have not been satisfied with the results."
I'll let you know how it turns out.
Posted by Kent Smith (Member # 251) on :
I would suggest having the customer drive by his sign, not stand in front of it. As Rick said a consideration of burnish is in order as well as mounting angle. Shimming the top of the sign slightly will change the direction of the reflection although time of year for position of the sun may be an issue as well. Never clearcoat unless forced into it as a LAST resort because the clear will not last as long as the gold.
Posted by Joe Crumley (Member # 2307) on :
Kent,
Yes and No with the gold lasting longer than the clear coat. Gilding done on vehicles or on signs close to a sprinker need a good clear coat. I can think of a dozen cases where it's going to make the gold last and last.
There are several excellent automotive clears as well as good old Matthews, which we love. Doesn't turn yellow or peal off. Looks good and last a long time.
Posted by Kent Smith (Member # 251) on :
Well, certainly given the damage caused by the obvious which I would add mountings where the public can touch and lean against the sign. But in general, where this is not the case, the gold will outlast a coat of clear. The longest I have found for automotove, two component clears is 18 years while the longest unfinished gold I have found outdoors is 322 years although there are rumors of others.
Posted by Joe Crumley (Member # 2307) on :
Kent,
You should have said it's considered standard practice to topcoat gold, laid down on motorcycles, vehicles, or any situation where abbresion will occur.
You said "Never clear coat unless forced into it." That's just flat wrong.
I too enjoy the brilliance of uncoated gold but sometimes it's not the best choice.
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
?
For some cwazy weason I was thinking he should have it lit an' that in an extremely elegant, dramatically shadow-casting way . . .
Silly wabbit . . . twicks are for kids . . .
Posted by Kent Smith (Member # 251) on :
Well Joe, I stand by my comment for these reasons. First and foremost, not all gold, even on vehicles needs to be clearcoated, depending upon service situations. Second, I think it is critical to send a clear message to realitve newcomers. Third, my reference is to how we are "forced" by circumstances, mainly intended use and abuse, to clear over gold. That is to say that my preference is to never clear which will allow the gold to have a more natural appearance. Harsh or consistant vehicle washing, abraision, sprinkler instrusion, tarnishing emission proximity and others that I have posted about over the years literally force us to diminish the natural appearance of the gold by clearcoating.
[ January 26, 2008, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: Kent Smith ]
Posted by Bill Diaz (Member # 2549) on :
I was astonished last fall when Jane and I vacationed in New England and attended Moose Mania by the quantity of carved gold leafed signage in that area. We had plenty of sunshine during the trip and although I found the signs to be beautiful, I did find them hard to read and in some cases, impossible to read, because of their brilliance. During a sunny day there's not much that can be done -- at night with adjusted lighting -- that may help.
I think this customer should realize that you have to make a compromise in readability in order to have that classic look. With the sheer quantity of these signs ... shoot ... we even saw a laundromat with a carved gold leaf sign, the pressure to "keep up with the Joneses" and have such a sign must be enormous.
I thought the most readable of the signs we saw had very dark backgrounds and the letters themselves had significant negative spacing and kerning that helped diminish the glow that the brilliance of the gold was giving off. I also though if the copy had a white or off white/ivory outline around a light weight gold leafed letter and with increased spacing -- it might help.
You rarely see those kinds of signs in our area. I don't know why (they're gorgeous), but they seem to be more in keeping with the meandering curved roads and slower traffic. Out in the flat prairie lands, the roads are straight and the traffic moves along, the signs are set way back and that sign mind set is the same when you slow down in the small towns. We have a few such signs that I've made around here, but they're in places with walk by viewage or low speed areas, so you have plenty of time to view them.
Along the coast of Maine, if you don't know how to carve gold leaf signs, you might have a hard time making a living.
[ January 28, 2008, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: Bill Diaz ]
Posted by Joe Cieslowski (Member # 2429) on :
Here's my 2 cents.
Several years ago, I called Paul White about the angle of the "V" cut letter as it relates to what I call "Flashing". The conversation didn't last long.....he said the deeper the "V" the less light gets in.....the shallower, more. More in......more out!
I increase the angle of the "V" (deeper) for the signs that face South. Shallow for those facing North.
I did a sample (you could too) showing 3 different angles of the same letter, right next to each other.....even the color of the gold is different depending on the angle....I'll see if I can get a pic.
Just a few of my thoughts.......
joe,
Makin Chips and Havin Fun!
Posted by Pete Payne (Member # 344) on :
although that flash does make some signs a little hard to read at certain angles and times of day, it can also make a sign impossible to ignore in a world of competing messages
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
For the majority of clients, the readability issue is a compromise they seem to be willing to make for the prestige value of a gilded, carved sign. Bill Diaz made the point about spacing letters farther apart, another one of those details that has been lost with letters being computer generated, whether they are CNC routed or hand carved with a computer pattern or through a mask.
Posted by Joe Cieslowski (Member # 2429) on :
OK.....here's the samples. There is NOT a high gild on these. Four shots at different angles...til I got a "Flash". Can you tell which is deepest? Do you see a color difference? Is this helpfull at all????
![[I Don t Know]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
Just a few of my thoughts.......
