This week's so called "revelations" about steroid use in major league baseball came to no surprise to anyone who follows the sport. It was obvious that several players were beginning to resemble professional wrestlers and records that once seemed insurmountable were being broken at a furious pace.
The Mitchell report has me asking myself...
How many times were we glued to our TVs watching no hitters, home run derbys, all-star, playoff and championship games that had been tainted by this widespread problem? How many players who weren't cheating never got to see anything but the bench in the shadow of these pumped up goliaths? How loud were we cheering for cheaters?
I think what gets me the most as a life long Red Sox fan is the sour feeling that, after finally seeing them win the world series after so long a wait, I can't help but wonder if it took longer because of this problem, or worse yet, finally happened because of it. In either case, the lingering questions will take the luster off a lot of championship rings that will probably never be restored.
Many of us grew up looking at these players as gifted athletes and even role models. Today, the only gifts they have left us to open is a sense of betrayal...packaged in a syringe...and a lot of questions about the validity of their accomplishments.
Rapid
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
One of the saddest things is seeing a young boy on TV yesterday quote from one of his heroes who said "It's all about your work ethic" and then the kid so, "no, it about steroids".
Somehow, there's not enough money available that would entice me to betray those that would hold me up as a role model. But then, I'm not from this world.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
I agree with what you say Ray....
What I don't get is how "steroids" which build muscle, but have no effect on hand/eye coordination - can do ANYTHING to enhance a BASEBALL player's skills??!!
I don't think they contribute at all...with the minor exception of making them run a *little* faster.
I don't think it helps them hit a ball better, or pitch better - those are skills that really don't require powerful muscles. It's a proven fact that a skinny kid can hit a homer just as easy as a muscle-bound kid - it's all about just connecting the bat with the ball. An easy swing, timed just right will blast a ball out of the park...so, did the steroids help him? No...his natural talent did the work...he might have been mentally convinced they helped him, but I don't think they physically aided his game.
I think these steroid using ball players are kidding themselves.
Case in point: Since the steroid allegations against Bond; you know he has quit using steroids a few years ago...yet he continues to blast the ball out of the park - even as he has become an 'old timer' in the game.
Pitching has always been about form and function...I'd be surprised if Clemens was taking steroids...if he has, they backfired and turned his gut into a cholesterol magnet. He pitched pretty darn good for a fat guy.
[ December 15, 2007, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]
Posted by Ken Henry (Member # 598) on :
Then again, why does current society support the notion that professional athletes should be held up as "role models" ? It's not as though the contribute all that much to the betterment of mankind, as a group.
There are other far more worthy "heros" who deserve that sort of acolade. Those who heal and care for the sick, those who stand to protect the majority of the population from wrongdoers, and those everyday, ordinary dads, who go about raising their children to become strong contributing members of society, and sometimes through some very real economic hardships. It's a tough job raising a family that comes to know and respect the value of honesty, integrity and the simple dignity of work. It's especially so if they don't have all that much to begin with.
Those are the real heros & role models. Not some physically gifted individual who is paid astronomical amounts to play a game for the sole purpose of entertaining the viewers. It's not as though these athletes are inventing the cure for cancer or anything near as important as that.They're entertainers who've somehow been granted "larger than life" status, and have been placed on a pedestal, but undeservedly so. Posted by Brian Snyder (Member # 41) on :
quote:Originally posted by Todd Gill: What I don't get is how "steroids" which build muscle, but have no effect on hand/eye coordination - can do ANYTHING to enhance a BASEBALL player's skills??!!
I don't think they contribute at all...with the minor exception of making them run a *little* faster.
I don't think it helps them hit a ball better, or pitch better - those are skills that really don't require powerful muscles. It's a proven fact that a skinny kid can hit a homer just as easy as a muscle-bound kid - it's all about just connecting the bat with the ball. An easy swing, timed just right will blast a ball out of the park...so, did the steroids help him? No...his natural talent did the work...he might have been mentally convinced they helped him, but I don't think they physically aided his game.
I think these steroid using ball players are kidding themselves.
Case in point: Since the steroid allegations against Bond; you know he has quit using steroids a few years ago...yet he continues to blast the ball out of the park - even as he has become an 'old timer' in the game.
Pitching has always been about form and function...I'd be surprised if Clemens was taking steroids...if he has, they backfired and turned his gut into a cholesterol magnet. He pitched pretty darn good for a fat guy.
If steroids dont assist in making you a better player there's no point in banning them. I don't think MLB creates rules solely to promote better health of its players. There may be no direct evidence that steroids help performance but there is no direct evidence smoking tobacco causes cancer either. Fortunately, there is plenty of circumstantial evidence to draw logical connections from.
Be careful with your skinny kid/muscle-bound kid argument. (I'd like to see a link to the "proven fact.") Its not about size. Its about strength. Force equals mass times acceleration. The force you hit a baseball with is affected by the weight and speed of the bat. Stronger players can generate greater bat speed, or generate the same bat speed with a heavier bat. History shows that stronger players always hit for more power regardless of their size.
Ray R-
The report has me asking the same questions as you but I also question the validity of the information in it. The key testimony comes from an admitted steroid dealer Kirk Radomski. As a condition of his plea deal he was required to cooperate with the government's and Mitchell's investigations. Sure he was under oath to provide information but people, especially criminals, lie under oath all the time, especially when its in their best interest. i.e. serving less jail time.
Posted by Darcy Baker (Member # 8262) on :
Sort of off-topic but have you seen Carrottop lately? I wonder if he will be banned from comedy.
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
quote: I don't think it helps them hit a ball better, or pitch better - those are skills that really don't require powerful muscles.
You obviously have never competed as an athlete at the national level. If you did then you would never think what you just typed.
quote: The key testimony comes from an admitted steroid dealer Kirk Radomski.
In the presence of FBI investigative agents. If any lies are told them this ads on extra charges. It is a federal offense to lie to a federal agent. Thus he has every reason to avoid lying.
[ December 15, 2007, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: Curtis hammond ]
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
I'd have to disagree with your muscle means greater bat speed theory.
A skinny kid with long (skinny) arms would produce greater bat speed than a muscle-bound short armed person.
Bat speed will be faster at it's end held by the longer arms of a skinny kid. Look at a energy producing windmill....the speed at the end of the blades are amazingly fast compared to the inside blade.
I maintain, stubbornly so ;-) that technique is by far the biggest factor in a homerun hit. The fact that those accused of using steroids to 'enhance' their skills doesn't mean much to me in baseball. These guys already had the talent and were performing regularly. I think, they stupidly thought they could do even more by taking drugs.
Look at flabby Babe Ruth. That guy didn't have one ounce of muscle tone...just flabby arms and a big ol beer gut. He didn't need muscle to slam them out of the park.
I think steroids would factor into sports requiring strength, such as Olympic Sprinting where leg muscles mean a lot...or weight lifting...that type thing.
I think that drugs in general - not just steroids - is part of the reason for the ban....that and the perception by the public that a player might get some sort of an edge using steroids ... even if only psychological.
That's my opinion...I could be wrong.
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
quote: I think that drugs in general - not just steroids - is part of the reason for the ban....that and the perception by the public that a player might get some sort of an edge using steroids ... even if only psychological.
That's my opinion...I could be wrong.
Yup,, you are wrong.. Way wrong.
Bruce Lee himself id dead because of his desire to enhance his speed and reaction timing using performance enhancing substances..
His reaction time is legendary among those "in the know", his speed and strength were superhuman as well. The man wasn't bulked but he was cut and his strength was well known among "those in the know"
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Curtis - there's no way you can know that or prove that steroids made Bruce Lee "quicker."
That's laughable. Another case of a very small skinny guy with quick reflexes....which come from a simple brain signal - not because of muscle mass.
In this case...I'd say you're waaaaaay wrong. Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
quote: Curtis - there's no way you can know that or prove that steroids made Bruce Lee "quicker
Todd... Yes, I do know that he used performance enhancing substances. And yes I do know that his usage made him quicker faster and stronger. These facts is well known common knowledge especially within the martial art world.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
quote:These facts is well known common knowledge
That statement wouldn't live 2 seconds in a courtroom....but if you want to believe such intangible hearsay...that's your privilege. Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Curtis, "The report has me asking the same questions as you but I also question the validity of the information in it."
...and rightly so.
Again, there are no sworn depositions, admittances or confessions here. The players have been implicated. Only time will tell whether those implications will result in future legal actions.
Kenesaw Mountain Landis, baseball's first commissioner, immediately dealt with the 1919 "Black Sox" scandal. He banned eight players suspected of involvement in the fix for life, including Buck Weaver and Shoeless Joe Jackson. Although they had been acquitted in court, Landis argued that the need to clean up baseball's reputation took precedence over any legal judgments.
Similarly, on August 24, 1989, Pete Rose voluntarily accepted a permanent place on baseball’s ineligible list. In return, Major League Baseball and it's commissioner at that time, Bart Giamatti, agreed to make no formal finding with regard to the gambling allegations.
There have been dozens of players put on this list since 1920...including Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, George Steinbrenner, Steve Howe, Fergie Jenkins and others. Most were exonerated and reinstated later, but Rose is the only living player still on the list.
Bud Selig is now in a similar position and has already stated "Discipline of players and others identified in this report will be determined on a case-by-case basis. If warranted, those decisions will be made swiftly."
Pete Rose might not be alone on "the list" soon.
Rapid
Posted by Dana Stanley (Member # 6786) on :
I don't think sports figures should be idealized but they are. Having said that I feel they should be held to the highest standards. The youth today has little to look up to, and if a guy is going to get millions to hit, throw, or catch a ball he should be the cleanest cut, straight edge person money can buy.
You as sports fans should demand it. The people who put the games on are in it for the money. The fans are being duped by cheaters, and your kids are being openly exposed to corruption at its worst. What ever happened to the phrase good sportsmanship? It's laughed at now that's what. I don't watch sports but did feel a sense of pride when the sox won , that is until Ray pointed out the dark truth of it.
Posted by Brian Snyder (Member # 41) on :
quote:Originally posted by Curtis hammond: In the presence of FBI investigative agents. If any lies are told them this ads on extra charges. It is a federal offense to lie to a federal agent. Thus he has every reason to avoid lying.
It was also a federal offense to distribute anabolic steroids, HGH and amphetamines. He knew this and had every reason to avoid doing it.
I don't know if Radomski lied about anything but I think its fair to question the validity of his testimony given his history of (admitted) criminal activity.
Posted by Brian Snyder (Member # 41) on :
quote:Originally posted by Todd Gill: I'd have to disagree with your muscle means greater bat speed theory.
I don't have a "muscle means greater bat speed theory." I don't have any theory. I posted a physics equation and I'll repost it here.
Force equals mass times acceleration. The force you hit a baseball with is affected by the weight and speed of the bat. Stronger players can generate greater bat speed, or generate the same bat speed with a heavier bat.
Again, its about strength. Not size.
quote:Originally posted by Todd Gill:
A skinny kid with long (skinny) arms would produce greater bat speed than a muscle-bound short armed person.
Bat speed will be faster at it's end held by the longer arms of a skinny kid. Look at a energy producing windmill....the speed at the end of the blades are amazingly fast compared to the inside blade.
Your first argument did not include any reference to arm length and, frankly, by adding it to your argument now I think you're reaching. After reading your windmill analogy I know for sure you are. I'm positive you are aware that much than just your arms are used to power the swing of a bat. Actually, your torso and legs provide most of the energy. Yes, bat speed is very important but it is effected more by strength than arm length. Maybe thats why we don't see a lot of NBA centers playing DH during their offseason.
quote:Originally posted by Todd Gill: I maintain, stubbornly so ;-) that technique is by far the biggest factor in a homerun hit.
Maintain? This is the first time you've mentioned technique.
quote:Originally posted by Todd Gill: The fact that those accused of using steroids to 'enhance' their skills doesn't mean much to me in baseball. These guys already had the talent and were performing regularly. I think, they stupidly thought they could do even more by taking drugs.
Steroids have extended careers, and reduced rehabilitation times to those with injuries.
quote:Originally posted by Todd Gill:
Look at flabby Babe Ruth. That guy didn't have one ounce of muscle tone...just flabby arms and a big ol beer gut. He didn't need muscle to slam them out of the park.
You're only looking at the videos and photos of him late in his career. The idea that he was always overweight is a popular misconception.
quote:Originally posted by Todd Gill:
I think steroids would factor into sports requiring strength, such as Olympic Sprinting where leg muscles mean a lot...or weight lifting...that type thing.
They do.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
quote:Maintain? This is the first time you've mentioned technique.
Brian - this statement is what I was referring to:
quote:Pitching has always been about form and function
Yes, much more than arms are involved - thereby bolstering my case that steroids don't do much to help a baseball player hit a homer in my opinion....In addition to technique, I'd say that the power hit comes from the hips. It involves the roatation of the hips - I don't think the arms amount to much of the equation at all....other than I'd still say long arms in combination with technique and (I'm adding this now) hip movement are the successful combination.
It would be interesting to get a pro-ball hitting coach's thoughts on that.
quote:Steroids have extended careers, and reduced rehabilitation times to those with injuries.
This seems like an argument for steroids.
quote:You're only looking at the videos and photos of him late in his career. The idea that he was always overweight is a popular misconception.
Ok...I'll agree with that. He wasn't always fat...but he wasn't muscle-bound either. His stats say he was 6'2" and 215 lbs...which for that height isn't overly huge..probably an average Joe.
In any event, I don't see where the stats say at what point in his career he was that height and weight...but by this picture early in his career you cannot say he had big ol' muscle bound arms that allowed him to have the "mass" required in your equation. In fact, I'd say his arms appear to be skinnier in proportion to the rest of his body...so I guess skinny guys can hit a ball pretty good.
[ December 15, 2007, 10:28 PM: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
quote: That statement wouldn't live 2 seconds in a courtroom....but if you want to believe such intangible hearsay...that's your privilege
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about. In this area I am the master you are the student. I was subject to performance enhancing substance testing way back in the late 70's when it was just becoming known. Just for the record, I was a nationally ranked competitor..
The statements I made about his usage are not only common knowledge but his use was witnessed as well. Not only that, he admitted it and discussed it with many others because at that time it wasn't a well known subject.
I believe you are totally misinformed about this subject. But, then you may just be playing the devil's advocate.
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
quote: It was also a federal offense to distribute anabolic steroids, HGH and amphetamines. He knew this and had every reason to avoid doing it.
And yes, there is a paper trail to verify what ever that person knew and revealed.
quote: There may be no direct evidence that steroids help performance
This is mistaken. All you have to do is hang around any workout place and observe the changes 'roid users undergo. Its so obvious that they can be pointed out at about 99% accuracy. They change so fast,, and they smell like it ,,
Spend your life in a gym setting or around athletes as I have and you will never again doubt what roid's do for any person.
[ December 15, 2007, 11:40 PM: Message edited by: Curtis hammond ]
Posted by Brian Snyder (Member # 41) on :
No Todd, you said "I maintain, stubbornly so ;-) that technique is by far the biggest factor in a homerun hit ."
First it a timing argument... "It's a proven fact that a skinny kid can hit a homer just as easy as a muscle-bound kid - it's all about just connecting the bat with the ball. An easy swing, timed just right will blast a ball out of the park."
Then its about arm length as it correlates to bat speed... "A skinny kid with long (skinny) arms would produce greater bat speed than a muscle-bound short armed person."
Now you admit that "much more than arms are involved" and go on to say "....In addition to technique, I'd say that the power hit comes from the hips. It involves the roatation of the hips - I don't think the arms amount to much of the equation at all....other than I'd still say long arms in combination with technique and (I'm adding this now) hip movement are the successful combination."
I can't take it! Please pick an argument and stick to it. Please post a link to the "proven fact" you purport.
I replied with "Steroids have extended careers, and reduced rehabilitation times to those with injuries" because you said "These guys already had the talent and were performing regularly. I think, they stupidly thought they could do even more by taking drugs." Some of these player weren't "performing regularly" because of their injuries. By using steroids they could do more - reduce the length of their injury and get back on the field more quickly.
If you think I'm arguing for steroids to be legal in MLB you're absolutely wrong.
Finally, if you re-read the physics formula and ponder it for a while I'll think you'll see that the mass refers to the bat's weight. Posted by Brian Snyder (Member # 41) on :
quote:Originally posted by Curtis hammond:
quote: It was also a federal offense to distribute anabolic steroids, HGH and amphetamines. He knew this and had every reason to avoid doing it.
And yes, there is a paper trail to verify what ever that person knew and revealed.
I hope you're right.
quote: There may be no direct evidence that steroids help performance
This is mistaken. All you have to do is hang around any workout place and observe the changes 'roid users undergo. Its so obvious that they can be pointed out at about 99% accuracy. They change so fast,, and they smell like it ,,
Spend your life in a gym setting or around athletes as I have and you will never again doubt what roid's do for any person.
My statement is made in the context of this post and its true - there is no direct evidence that steroids help the performance of a baseball player. Direct evidence. No. Circumstantial. Yes. The steroid users in your gym will workout longer and harder. Seeing them being able to lift heavier weights is direct evidence of the performance enhancing drugs they use. You can't find this direct evidence in baseball but, like I said earlier, there is plenty of circumstantial evidence to draw logical connections from.
My father has taken anabolic steroids daily for the past 20 years. Spend some time around the average Joe's who takes anabolic steroids in order to stay alive you find you've had a limited perspective of what "roid's do for any person."
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
quote: stay alive you find you've had a limited perspective of what "roid's do for any person."
No, I too have family members who must use steroids for health issues. However, there is a huge difference between the two. One is for therapeutic reasons, and the other is taken in huge amounts and under abuse..
Just look at a roid abuser. Their bodies are malformed. For example. In men the testes are huge. I mean each one the size of oranges if they fail to counter the side effects correctly. Women who do a few too many "cycles" have enlarged private areas and voice deepening. Remove the breasts and they could pass for men. they have body strength rivaling grown men. They hit tennis balls with the speed and power that defeats professional men. Is that not conclusive enough that 'roid' abuse enhances performance?
[ December 16, 2007, 12:52 AM: Message edited by: Curtis hammond ]
Posted by Ken Henry (Member # 598) on :
So, if steroids work for athletes....what sort of things enhance the performances of signpeople ?
1-Shot fumes ? Lacquer thinners ? Mek Adhesives ? 2-part epoxies ? Vinyl Inks & thinners ? Airbrush overspray ? Visual stimulation ? Workshops/Demonstrations ? Meets ?
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Ken...all the above!
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Todd,
Interesting that you mentioned long armed skinny pitchers earlier and put up the picture of Babe Ruth in a Red Sox uniform. At that time in his career, Ruth was a pitcher.
In 1919, his final season with the Red Sox, Ruth set the league's all time home run mark...29. In 1921, Ruth nearly DOUBLED that amount, swatting 54 out of the parks in a Yankee uniform. It wasn't because he got any bigger, but because he got more at bats and the baseballs themselves were changed...literally.
Prior to 1920, the same ball was used throughout the entire game. Even the foul balls were thrown back into play by the fans! Since then, when baseballs appear to have wear and tear, fresh baseballs are used instead. Given that the brighter balls were easier to see, batters began hitting the long ball more frequently.
Yet Ruth's 60 home run record stood for nearly 40 years until Roger Maris broke it in 1961...by only one homer.
So what does any of this have to do with steroids?
Baseball is a game LOADED with statistics. I offer the following for your discretion...
During a span of 70 YEARS, 13 players had hit 50 or more homers in a single season. Only Ruth and Maris had hit 60 or more.
Since the start of the "live-ball" era in the 1920s, the only decade which did not see a 50-homer season was the 1980s. Only one player — George Foster in 1977 — had a 50-homer season in the quarter-century between 1965 and 1990. (*NOTE*- This was also the same time that the most no hitters, shut outs and complete games were played. Nolan Ryan, Tom Sever, Sandy Koufax and others were shattering records on the mound, effectively ending the days of .400+ batting averages.)
Since 1994, 13 more players have hit 50+ homers. Three — Sammy Sosa, Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds — have hit 60 or more homers six times collectively, two of whom have broken the once unthinkable 70 mark.
Bonds' record-breaking 2001 season was the only season in which he hit 50 or more homers. He'd never won a batting title. He is THE ONLY PLAYER IN HISTORY to have hit 500 home runs and stolen 500 bases. No other player has ever gotten to the 400-400 mark! Bonds is one of only 4 players to ever to hit 40 homers and steal 40 bases in a single season.
That last tidbit has a certain irony to it... He shares that rare 40/40 achievement with Jose Canseco, who wrote years later in his book "Juiced", that he'd injected McGwire with steroids.
Lastly...since you posted Ruth, I guess you believe a picture tells a thousand words, so here you go...
Let's be honest, Todd. If you were picking a DH for the company softball team, which version of Barry would you pick? Which would give your team an "advantage" or "edge"? Or is there that little voice in the back of your head saying "Let's play a fair game and ask him to be an umpire?"
These guys aren't playing stickball and it ain't about their swings. They are millionaires created from huge investments by team owners, and they got an "edge" when they shot up.
If you want to turn a blind eye to the truth, be my guest. You were preceded by a lot of people before you in this regard...players, owners, league officials and, yes, even the fans...to see the return of the home run kings.
IMHO, I think many of these kings will be dethroned in the near future and those who "earned" the right to their titles..the extraordinary ordinary people...will regain their places in Halls of Cooperstown.
Be well, Rapid
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
I couldn't care less about sports and a large part of that is because of the constant 'above-the-law' mindset by the players. From murdering your wife to constant streams of illegal drugs to torturing dogs, if any of these criminals weren't sports players, they would be in prison where they belong. I know Vick got a little bit of jailtime, but not nearly what he deserved.
quote:Originally posted by Ray Rheaume: IMHO, I think many of these kings will be dethroned in the near future and those who "earned" the right to their titles..the extraordinary ordinary people...will regain their places in Halls of Cooperstown.
I hope you're right Ray. That's the way it should be, criminals where they belong... in orange jumpsuits, picking up garbage on the side of the road, chained together, with a shotgun aimed at their heads just in case they think about running, not on ANY playing field and certainly not held in esteem by anyone.
[ December 16, 2007, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: Kissymatina ]
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
[ December 16, 2007, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: Kissymatina ]
Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
quote:Originally posted by Curtis hammond:
quote: Curtis - there's no way you can know that or prove that steroids made Bruce Lee "quicker
Todd... Yes, I do know that he used performance enhancing substances. And yes I do know that his usage made him quicker faster and stronger. These facts is well known common knowledge especially within the martial art world.
Despite of what headlines on the view and cnn will slant for your enjoyment,steroids were a major contributing factor in lees death,and werent in lyle alzados.....try to convince anyone of that. Its fairly common knowledge in certain circles that lee was a pretty heavy user of a drug called dianabol which inevitably exacerbated a couple of genetic problems and did him in. Alzado died of a brain and respiratory infection/abscesses common in people with HIV....do the math. People want to believe what they want to believe but the truth is the truth.....and the truth is lee= little guy,cant be using,alzado=big guy who is an admitted user and takes pleasure in acting like an asshole,so it must be roid rage,and in turn the drugs he used must have did him in. Why? bc its better for the nfls image to paint him as a drug monster than a guy who didnt just get jabbed by a needle if you catch the drift. In joe publics mind,steroids=325lb 5'7 androgenic looking idiot with chickpea balls and no hair whose going to die of cancer or some horrible disease at any second bc he wheezes and turns red when he walks 10ft bc his circulatory system cant keep up with his body....but not before he snaps in a homicidal rage because someone sneezed next to him. Anabolics will NOT blow everyone that takes them up like a monster unless they have the genetic predisposition for it,nor will they make just anyone a world class athlete,once again unless they have the genetic predisposition for it. Anabolics main impact on athletes at any level is enhanced recovery from exercise,which is where you build any type of size or strength. Its not only muscle cells that are affected by anabolics,its also tendons,ligaments,improved neural connections,cardio and endurance ability etc. The harder you can train the stronger,faster and better recovered you can and will become. As far as speed increases and reaction time,absolutely it will help. Ben Johnson is a perfect example....without winstrol he was still going to run a say 10.0 100....on winstrol,when hes stronger and is able to generate more power bc he has stronger tendons and ligaments hes gonna run a 9.9 or 9.85 and set a world record. Is it going to make him or anyone into something they arent meant to be? no. Do average men in their late 40s and 50s report the ability to think clearer,feel less foggy and things like that when on prescribed testosterone supplementation? Read some studies its common....having your brain working faster contributs greatly to hand eye coordination. I do alot of handgun training...hand/eye coordination is just as much a learned skill up to a certain point as tapping your fingers,and it can definitely be refined upon with more frequent practice sessions. Would they have made ruth a better hitter? no,but they will make him generate more power and instead of hitting one 300 feet hes gonna start sending them 500ft out of the stadium,and have fans saying wtf gus. Its pretty much a fact,and no its not common knowledge on a sign board,but probably 95% of the athletes competing at a national or international level right now in track and field are using something. Most of the olympic athletes you see no matter what the discipline,or the country,are using something. Most of teh strongman competitors you see on tv,are on sonething. Marion Jones is a scapegoat to make it appear the battle is being won. Most of your athletes in tour de france are using something. Guys in the nfl are using something. Guys in the nhl and mlb are using something. The more frequent and harder you are able to train the better your skillset becomes. Clemens probably got the ability from them to pitch 5 times without needing a massive rest instead of 3,and they helped him recover from the beating his joints took and all that crapola at age 40. A 40 yo athlete no matter what the level,cannot do what a 26yo athlete can do,nor can he or she recover anywhere near as quickly...give that 40yo the ability to recover like a 30yo can and hes back in the game. Thats what they do for someone like clemens. Testing is bullsh*t 99% of the time...for every test there is a way to beat it,whether its masking agents or a chemist who can shave carbon rings off a drugs molecular structure so its signature reads just diff enuff on a chromatograph so that he doesnt pop positive on his/her test. Alot of tests are also announced in advanced. Doesnt take a genius to figure out what goes on there. The public has been goat herded into thinking that steroids make harry potter into barry bonds in 3months and its pathetic...just like the claims of "roid rage" and all that horsecrap. You can also get stronger without necessarily getting appreciably bigger or even leaner,you dont have to be bigger necessarily. All anabolics do not have the same properties....some compounds target muscle cells,some connective tissue like tendons,ligaments and joints,some effect blood volume and endurance,some target recovery,some effect body recomposition,some higher androgenic substances effect muscle hardness etc etc etc.....there are some asthma drugs that have dramatic effects on body recomposition. The biggest myth out there right now perpetuated ad nausem by clueless robots in the media and spouted by sheep who watch is HGH...they have made it some mythical invisible substance that does everything under teh sun....immediately. People who notice benefits from hgh supplementation do so over periods of years,not from one offseason to another,it can act as a synergistic compound and amplify other drugs to some degree,but its still not that major and its sure not finger snap magic...its also expensive enuff to break a pro ball player who tried to use it alone to gain 20lbs bc of the amount of daily iu's it would take. The bottom line is noone wants to see joe average's lazy ass in pro or international sports,the public wants to see freaks do exceptional things. Anabolic and drug use has been common in pro sports since the very early 60's,its nothing new nor will it stop with this crap,but it does amaze timmy biblebelt and his wife who get their fitness and health knowledge from dr phil and oprah who watch some assmonkey on headline news get dramatic over this like they discovered gravity. Humans are competitive,athletes moreso and any edge people can take will get exploited.....lookat the length and BS people will ramble off here just to feel like they belong to some club. Despite all the debates here or otherwise,people need to realize that certain people are born to do certain things and other arent,and no amount of drugs is going to change the base level of who gets to certain levels of sport and who doesnt.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Listen folks, I'm not supporting steroid use among our athletes - I am totally against it. But like I said before, and this is simply my opinion...I don't think there is a big relationship to homerun hits and steroid use.
Ray, Brian, Gavin raise some good points....
My thoughts as this story hit immediately went to the hypocrisy of many of those condemning these guys. I'd like to know what skeletons they hide in their closets.
Are the players all that different from today's society in general? Society seems to have embraced the drug culture. Many people who would look down upon Bonds for illegally using steroids wouldn't think twice about using illegal drugs such as MJ or any number of 'recreational' drugs themselves. Alcohol abuse is commonplace.
People cheating on their husbands and wives and thinking somehow they are fooling people...cheating on your taxes, any number of things.
But somehow in their hypocrisy, they are willing to brush aside all the illegal and immoral things in their own lives and look down their noses with disdain at someone else who, like them, had very weak personal integrity, willpower, arrogance, defiance - whatever you want to call it....simply because they are a 'professional' and in the public eye.
Why does society expect so much more out of ballplayers than they expect from themselves?
I'm not giving them a pass and wouldn't it be great if they actually were role models....but a lot of people in society criticizing these folks could probably do some house-cleaning themselves.
Maybe some of you who are more in tune with baseball history can confirm or deny this - but, based upon the movie and some things I've read about the "Babe"....wasn't he one to abuse drink, women, and cause more than a scuffle later in his career? If so, he probably wasn't a shining example of an athlete either....statistics aside.
Posted by Ken Henry (Member # 598) on :
Todd, When you get right down to it, isn't Viagara a "performance enhancing" drug ??
What's more, it's completely legal.
Just a different sort of "performance". Posted by Brian Snyder (Member # 41) on :
quote:Originally posted by Curtis hammond: [QUOTE] They hit tennis balls with the speed and power that defeats professional men. Is that not conclusive enough that 'roid' abuse enhances performance?
Yes! My point was never that steroid use does not enhance performance. Here it is again...
"There may be no direct evidence that steroids help performance ....Fortunately, there is plenty of circumstantial evidence to draw logical connections from."
You've got to understand the difference between "direct evidence" and "circumstantial evidence." I'm not arguing that steroid use doesnt enhance performance. I'm arguing that there is no "direct evidence" that steroid use enhances the performance of a MLB player.
Posted by Brian Snyder (Member # 41) on :
quote:Originally posted by Curtis hammond: [QUOTE] They hit tennis balls with the speed and power that defeats professional men. Is that not conclusive enough that 'roid' abuse enhances performance?
Yes! My point was never that steroid use does not enhance performance. Here it is again...
"There may be no direct evidence that steroids help performance ....Fortunately, there is plenty of circumstantial evidence to draw logical connections from."
You've got to understand the difference between "direct evidence" and "circumstantial evidence." I'm not arguing that steroid use doesnt enhance performance. I'm arguing that there is no "direct evidence" that steroid use enhances the performance of a MLB player.
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Lol! Bryan...you better back off on the steroids...it's causing you to flinch and double post!
Posted by Brian Snyder (Member # 41) on :
But they told me steroids would enhance my mouse clicking abilities!
Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
Anybody for Chinese? Oh, wait... that's loaded with MSG... never mind.
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
You guys all missed the #1 reason to avoid steroids. They make your weenie shrink! I don't know about the rest of you but I can't afford any sort of loss in that department.
Posted by Darcy Baker (Member # 8262) on :
I'll bet Phizer is working on anabolic viagra as we speak.I don't think they've released it yet because they're afraid ballplayers will get their hands on it and all the batters will be up at once.
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