Did install on a box truck a month ago. 2 complete sides of truck. The full graphics were supplied printed on 3m control tac reflective, the graphics were supplied by 3m and were advertising 3m products.
I got an email this morning asking for a quote to remove and re-install the entire graphic. Apparently not all the reflective was from the same lot and was reflecting unevenly...
I have to give a definite fixed quote but have no idea how easily the reflective will lift.
Thunks welcome.
Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
Hiya Mike, Scotchlite is offered with both removable and permanent adheasive. So, before you give a quote, contact the supplier to see what material you were supplied with. If I remember correctly (I don't have my notes here at the moment) 3M suggested $1.00-$2.00 a square foot for removal of their "removable" graphics. We didn't touch on pricing for removal of permanent graphics, but I would not touch the job unless I quoted it by the hours or high enough to cover all unforeseen circumstances.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
Posted by Laura Butler (Member # 1830) on :
I use Engineer grade relective. It has become such a bear to remove that I have started putting a layer of HP or Int. grade vinyl down first...just in case I am the one that needs to remove it if they want.
I have tried moving with heat gun or steamer first. Neither work great. When pulled, the reflective has a tendency to separate from itself, leaving the next layer and finally the adhesive still on the sign.
I'm with Checkers. Find out what line of vinyl it was.
[ December 07, 2007, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: Laura Butler ]
Posted by Mike O'Neill (Member # 470) on :
I'm familiar with removing engineering grade, and would flatly refuse this job were it printed on that. We're talking about (2) 8'x 20' graphics. We've had to remove engineering grade before and for that reason we don't ourselves use engineering grade on vehicles. The trick to removing engineering grade is to get the heat just right, too hot and it breaks as you pull, too cold and it seperates, and learn to work slowly. We've found that heat lamps are the easiest way to heat large areas with a good level of control. Small 'chisels' made from scrap lexan (not acrylic) work well for starting areas without damaging the vehicle paint.
I was quite impressed with the 3M reflective vinyl on the install, it went on real easy and was repositionable. I did take checkers advise and am waiting for clarification on the vinyl type.
Posted by Michael Boone (Member # 308) on :
I had a failure of 3M reflective a few years back It was a Scotchprint applied to an over the road trailer. 3M blamed it on improper installation..claiming I did not RE-SQUEEGEE the edges.That seemed like an odd reason for the print to actually de-laminate when removing the application tape,but since the sub-contractor that actually made the prints warranteed the work...I did not pursue it.
AND ...NO....I DID NOT RECEIVE ANY COMPENSATION FOR THE REMOVAL OF OLD OR INSTALLATION OF SECOND NEW GRAPHIC...SUPPOSEDLY AN INDUSTRY STANDARD dimensions were 15' x 10' Product used was 680 C reflective with Controltac adhesive.
Removal of failed graphic took 18 man hours.It was a real beast of a job.
[ December 07, 2007, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: Michael Boone ]
Posted by Kenny Lund (Member # 5559) on :
At my old place of employment, we regularly had to do removals of 3M from police cars, the best method was a air driven vinyl zapper (I'm assuming the electric would work well too, just have never used one) It takes a little bit to get the feel of it and the wheels aren't cheap, but you'll end up with minimal usage of chemicals to get rid of any leftover adheasive residue. It was way faster than a heatgun or the steam pressure washer.
Laura-a trick to getting around the separation of the adheasive and the vinyl it self that I read in Sign Craft, was to just pull the reflective off and let it separate from itself and then go back with some masking tape (I use 3M green auto body tape), burnish it down with a vinyl squgee just like you would when applying any other vinyl, then pull the tape up at a shallow angle, and voila!, The leftover adheasive comes right up with the tape. For a large application this probably wouldn't be productive, but for smaller stuff such as individual graphics or doors, it always worked like a charm. 9 times out of 10 using this method, we never even had to use any chemical removers to get rid of any residue.
Posted by Laura Butler (Member # 1830) on :
So which reflective do most people use? I always used that because thats what the previous owner used. I am ready to try something different if it comes off easier....even if it cost more.
Be careful with the tool. Its only as good as its operator.
I had to do a fire truck last year with SignGold. The sign shop that had done the graphics on the brand new truck hadn't used the font that the department was using and wanted it re-done. To save money, they were going to take the old graphics off themselves. They called the local auto paint and parts supplier and they suggested the zapper too. When I got up there on the truck to install, I could see that the operator of the zapper had taken paint off right down to metal.
[ December 10, 2007, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: Laura Butler ]
Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
Laura, I've always been deathly afraid of trying the 'Zapper' for that reason...
Hey, Mike.... have you gone and watched the videos?
Posted by Mike O'Neill (Member # 470) on :
videos? what videos?
Posted by Anne McDonald (Member # 6842) on :
I have recently removed 3M reflective from 3 vehicles using the wheel. The trick is not to hold it in one place too long as it heats up and will damage the paint. As long as you keep it moving you will be fine. If it rubs against rubber on the vehicle it will damage it though so you need to remove manually in any area like that. It took 8 hours to complete each vehicle and there was approximately 8 square feet or reflective. This used 6 wheels at a cost of $60 (nz) each
Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
I figured there had to be a Rabid Remover video covering this subject... Posted by Laura Butler (Member # 1830) on :
Don't use RR. It'll takes the paint off of powder coated alum. Ask me how I know.
Posted by Mr Curtis Dalton (Member # 7547) on :
Hey Brother, what's up Mike.. you've been busy dude. It's funny you have this problem.. we just removed 3M reflective from a truck as well. If you use those Lexan thingys you made and use a Steamer it will work good.. still slow as hell though. It took from 9:30am to 4:45pm yesterday to do the job.( with 3/4 of a bottle of Rapid Remover). That was one guy! Your job sounds a little bigger. We found the heat gun was taking off the reflective in small chunks but the steamer was faster. However there was a lot of glue left. We are charging a full days labour plus materials (Rapid Remover). Hope this helps bro.
Posted by Mike O'Neill (Member # 470) on :
Hey Curt,
Merry Xmas dude, we're doing kringle lunch today, steaks at Menihek on Jan. 5 if you want to come! Smokey opens this weekend but its bitterly cold (-37c).
Had a call from 3m telling me how easy this removal will be, I've decided to reserve pricing it 'til it's done.
Not a problem, just another job.
Say hi to Tanya!!
Posted by Laura Butler (Member # 1830) on :
So Mike, which reflective do you recommend?
Posted by Mr Curtis Dalton (Member # 7547) on :
Thanks Mike, I was actually gonna drop up there over xMas but I can't get to the boat in time and my folks said the road was a nightmare (in a 4x4 Silverado) Don't think I was to drag two kids over that in an Optra at the last minute!! Ahh the good ol' xmas lunch with the Copy Shop.. I miss that! Have a good xmas man.
Hey Laura, if I know Mike well, he's still using Arlon Reflective... We started using that when I worked with him because it removes better and it's a great product! I just wouldn't use it on curves. Am I right Mike?
Posted by Mike O'Neill (Member # 470) on :
Curt is right about the arlon 2400/2450, it's what we use.
The 3M reflective that we installed for this job went on REAL well, very easy to work with. I did get a call from 3M and they assure me it should be relatively easy to remove providing I can get the truck up to room temperature (no easy task here). The vinyl installed is IJ680CR-10 it is 3M's premium reflective product for vehicle wraps and graphics.
The 3M engineering grades are designed to be permanent, and they are, the acrylic based glues are agressive as hell. These vinyls are really meant for road signage and no thought is given to removal.
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