I didn't want to hijack another thread by running it off into this direction....but I feel pretty passionate about this topic.
It is my personal belief that you cannot "teach" someone to be a good designer by laying out certain, basic design principles and having them emulate them.
I believe every person is born with a God-given talent/gift and that these gifts, with some instruction can be honed to a very high standard.
But I don't believe that someone without the "in-born" gift can be "taught" to become a good designer.
At best, they can apply some of the fundamental principles and be one step about a crappy layout....but not having the in-born vision, they will never achieve a variety of design and creativity that a talented (God gifted) designer has by virtue of their DNA. They will simply amass a bunch of "assembled" designs that were created from a cookie-cutter template...lacking any real personality.
What you will end up seeing is an endless array of identical pieces, which tend to have a same 'ol generic theme. They will be "ok" but never inspiring.
I know in my heart of hearts I will never be a good automotive mechanic...or a world class dancer....or come even close to being able to play the guitar like Jimi Hendrix. It's not how I have been gifted.
It's great to encourage and bring along people who have the raw talent, and help mold that talent into something amazing....but I'm unconvinced that the artist/illustrator/design/sign wannabe's can be taught to create the pieces of many of the talented people here.
I have seen some really great stuff here and other sites, but I have seen a lot of stuff that is so elementary that one wonders how these people can survive in today's competitive market. In addition, I almost think it fraudulent to encourage these people towards a profession that they have little chance in succeeding at.
I saw this happen when I went to a well respected design college.....the college required you be accepted based upon a portfolio. Yet, in reality they would accept anyone - as they needed warm bodies to meet their financial and operating costs.
The result was, I saw many talentless kids waste premium private school tuition dollars pursuing a career they were predestined to fail at.
Many of these kids went through 4 years of college for nothing. You could look at their senior portfolio presentations and compare it to their first sketch in Design 101 and see no appreciable difference in creativity or skill.
They got a degree.
They got a huge school loan bill.
They got no job offers.
In regards to design and creativity - I think you either have it or you don't. I believe a scientific analysis of the human brain and it's creative centers would bear this out.
In a nutshell I feel that:
***If you have an inborn talent/gift for design and creativity, you can be mentored and shepherded into enhancing those skills.
***If you don't have them, you never will - and it's best to recognize the reality of that and discover where your true gifts lie - and pursue them for optimal success in life.
If being able to *create* a good designer were truly possible, then I would challenge any of the best sign business people at this site to hire their best friends nephew the next time you have a job opening available...instead of interviewing for the best creative person you can find.
Teach them the design template principles and let's see if they become a talented contributor to your business bottom line.
After all, it's just as simple as following these 4 easy steps, right?!
[ November 08, 2007, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
That reminds me of my perception of the differences between an "art" and a "craft"
...or the difference between a "pop tune" and the product of a brilliant song writer or composer.
As letterheads, I think many of us see, and strive for, the fine art elements that can push a layout and fabrication technique into the realms of a true artistic achievement, but on the other hand, I think the potential for a meaningful career in the sign trade is not limited to artists with a god given design talent.
To me, learning a craft, is like learning a language. I'm sure I could learn to speak Italian, but I know I'll never be an opera singer. Yet, I could write an Opera, and get someone else to sing it...
The craft of learning to apply good design principals is not outside the potential for the average citizen, but of course going to school doesn't guarantee learning.
One of the biggest factors to play an important role in the effectiveness of the lesson might be the ability to recognize beauty, and I agree with Todd, that some people are not as capable as others in distinguishing between good and bad design. Another factor is the willingness to put your trust in your instructor, and do as you are taught.
While you may not become the greatest artistic designer if you lack the gift of recognizing every weakness in a layout, I do think putting one's trust in the principals of good design, as taught by a qualified instructor, can make a world of difference & can make a dedicated sign professional capable of improving his craft and his business success.
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
A really good question...and well stated Todd.
Now, I just wish I had the answer to your question. Ask me on any given day and I will have a different answer.
For me to pursue some musical professional would be stupid, for I can't "hear" the difference from one note to another. While I might be able to produce some music mechanically, it still would sound just like that - mechanical and have to life to it.
In the same way, some people cannot "see" - in other words they cannot perceive the same things that many here see when they look at a layout or painting. An artist sees the various combinations of darks and lights and how light effect objects and how they arrange themselves with each other, while the average person sees just a pretty picture.
Now, is that ability to "see" an inborn talent or a developed ability? To me it is a difficult decision because I know that many folks have dedicated a lifetime of hard work and practice to get where they "see" today and to say that it was just something inborn has a way of nulifying thier passion and endurance.
On the other hand, many do seem destined to be able to perform certain tasks at an ealier age or with less effort than others. Some children possess amazing abilities in music and art that only come with decades of experience in others.
And yet, those young folks still have to have a passion to develop whatever we call "talent" or the gift just lies there.
Here's my opinion on it and you can take it or leave it: God gives each individual a special gift, unique to only him (or her). It may not be music or art, but could be compassion or caring, or the art of communication (possibly the ease of learning languages) or a passion for words (written or spoken) or even althletic abilities. Whether that gift is developed or allowed to lie dormant is up to the individual. Possibly the gift is simply the "passion" to persue whatever - learning, the arts, athletics, people skills, or you name it.
The hard part is discovering that passion and some never find it. The fortunate are those that love what they do, whether it's working in the soil, or painting a house, or teaching, or making letters. If it's not work, it's a gift. It may be physically and emotionall demanding and draining, but if each morning brings anticipation and excitement there is something present that is not a result of education or experience and it has nothing to do with our DNA or where we live. And maybe that's the gift - simply the passion for doing something well.
Posted by Bill Lynch (Member # 3815) on :
Maybe you can't become "daVinci" through education, but you can become better. And there are very few truly great artists in any craft. On the flip side the greatest natural talent is absolutely useless unless effort is applied.
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
"Can anyone "learn" to become a good designer?"
Yes.
Can anyone "learn" to become a great designer?
NO.
Going back to you guitar analogy and that's one I use all the time when people comment about learning to hand letter or pinstripe. I always compare it to playing the guitar. Anybody can learn to play the guitar if they desire. They might even become really good but only a few achieve the status of Jimi Hendrix. Likewise anybody that wants to, can learn to letter or stripe, doesn't mean they will rival Bob Beheonuk or John Hannukaine. The same applies to designing signs. Anybody can learn enough to become good, just a few will become another Gary Anderson.
I've seen a whole bunch of people on this BB improve their work ten fold in just a few short years. It can and is done all the time.
Posted by W. R. Pickett (Member # 3842) on :
...I think that being a sign 'DESIGNER' is much different than 'LAYING OUT' a sign correctly. Quality, good, effective lay out can (and should) be learned. Anybody can learn lay-out. I did by reading MASTERING LAYOUT by MIKE STEVENS. Layout is no more than knowing the rules, and Mike explains them all. ...Coming up with fresh concepts for the unique identity of a client is what a 'designer' does. Being a 'CREATIVE THINKER' cannot be taught. You either are or not. ...my 2cents.
Posted by Monte Jumper (Member # 1106) on :
If you are "left brain" become an architect.
If you are "right brain" you have a good shot at it!
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
I agree that those with a natural gift will rise to the top...IF they are receptive to instruction. I also believe that those who work hard at improving will improve and be able to be successful. What I believe most of all is that a good business head will do more for you in this business than all the talent in the world. Of course if you have both....well then you have the tools for success!
Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :
Many of us have talents we didn't know exsisted.
I am a freak for straight lines and kerning. When I learned 'how' to lay tile, it didn't take a brain surgeon to realize how easy it actually was. I utilized my straight line thing to be proficient in another area I didn't know I had avail to me until I tried. A professional tiler may come in and laugh at my floor, but I'll guarantee you, if I do another two or so, he won't be able to tell if he did it or I. You CAN learn as you go.
Never say no to someone. Don't discourage. Always hand them the tools and say try it. They'll get it soon enough if it isn't for them. And if they don't, someone will eventually tell them.
No, not everyone can be an artist. Or a pianist. But never say never if it's something you secretly desire... you never know!
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
Todd, I emphatically disagree with your premise that sign design cannot be learned. No one is born with an innate ability of this nature. The only evidence that can be mustered to support your theory is that for some people, learning is faster and easier - but it is still LEARNING, not some "automatic" or "god-given" (whatever that means) ability.
You can show evidence of innate ability in music and art - but sign design isn't art, it's a functional craft with essential rules that can be rationally applied. The problem with mediocre sign designers is an ignorance of those principles, or worse, a refusal - out of lazyness or lack of concern - to learn those principles. Good designers are those who work at it - who continually study and emulate the work of those who are better than themselves, who critique their own efforts and look back on past efforts, and who realize there is ALWAYS more to learn, that no design is ever "perfect", and who make a conscious and continual effort to improve.
My problem with the concept of "talent" is that it becomes both a crutch and an excuse. A crutch, in that believing one has "talent" is a blank check to disregard the essential rules and structure of sign design. An excuse, because if you think you can't do something without an innate ability, there's no point in learning, striving, studying and improving. Either way, it's a trap that interferes with producing competent design.
I know this post was in response to my suggestions for a designer "boot camp". I don't have the expectation, in a boot camp, of turning out great designers in a weekend. What I DO expect to accomplish is to show people how to avoid common and fundamental errors, to show them HOW to improve, HOW to critique their work, and perhaps - just maybe - to put a finger in the dyke, holding back the flood of hideous, incomprehensible, ineffective, and just plain butt-ugly sign work that we see everywhere.
Out of that, some people will learn enough to produce above-average sign work (which isn't saying much, given that the bulk of "average" sign work, frankly, sucks). Some of them will use it as a foundation to continue learning and improving; and maybe one or two might someday be looked upon as "great". But to say - to actually believe - that nothing can be taught, or that none of those modest goals are possible without some sort of automatic, god-given, innate magical abilty, is abhorrent to me.
Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
I tend to lean towards Cam's view on this. I think some people have an eye for color and balance, and so they are automatically way up on the learning curve. However that doesn't mean that unless you're a fruity-tooty artsy dude, you absolutely will not be able to design signs. I agree that the people that have a natural eye for it may become better than many of the other designers that are putting in the same amount of effort.
Like you, for example, Todd. I really like all of your designs and I think you are really talented... but there are designers out there that are better than you, that have probably had a lot less formal 'design' training than you. That's basically saying they have more raw natural talent than you... But if you concentrated daily on improving your design skills, learning the graphics programs better, improving your idea sketching, etc. etc., I have no doubt that you could rival the best of them. It would just take learning and experience.
I know there are people out there that could never be good designers , no matter what (if you're blind, for example)... but the majority, with effort, determination, and a lot of studying, practice and instruction could become 'GOOD' designers.
[ November 08, 2007, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: Jon Jantz ]
Posted by William Holohan (Member # 2514) on :
Todd, It tickles me pink to hear of someone like yourself. Who was "born" so talented that his first sign design just had to be as good as the one he did yesterday because of his "God given" sign design talent. No learning curve in between if I read your assesment of your talents correctly. I am amazed and humbled by your abilities. Never even had to consider steps 1-4 in your career. Hurrah for you.
[ November 08, 2007, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: William Holohan ]
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Let me quickly point out that this isn't an arrogant thread about me being superior to anybody - that is not the intent....this is not about me, or anybody else in particular - it is about the concept of the ability/likelyhood of a person with out the born gift of design/creativity to achieve a livable, workable level of expertise verses the person who was born with the gift.
I am just saying that I truly don't believe you can teach an individual "design" if they haven't an inborn gift for it.
I think I pretty much say the same thing as you Cam, in that, yes...you can teach people some basic paint by numbers principles...but in doing that, all you will get is the same design/look over and over again because they don't have an eye for the many nuances that make for a really decent design.....or the creativity to use those principles in varying ways to make Design #2 look different than Design#1 in any significant, creative way.
Not to say they can't have fun trying and that they couldn't derive satisfaction from learning. But they shouldn't kid themselves into thinking they can make a (succesful) professional career from it.
I will quickly and honestly concur that there are many, MANY designers that are better than me....and I believe their are various levels of raw, inborn talent. I think I am not pessimistic, but realistic to say that I, for instance, will never rise to the level of the best of the best. I think I can gain and grow, but I also think that it becomes slower and harder once you've reached your 90th percentile of the gifted talent you were born with.
There is a law of diminishing returns in just about any endeavor. I am all for hope, encouragement, and following your dreams....but at some point a person has to be introspective, as Ray Chapman suggests, and find out what their true gift is and where their real talents lie.
Cam - I agree with your statement that the person with the God-given talent must experiment, and learn to grow that talent to it's fullest potential. I have no question that's true, and I think I stated that.
William, I'm in no way implying that a person born with an eye for design and creativity comes into this world at 100% talent...quite the contrary. I think I'm being misunderstood on that point.
I am saying that someone who isn't born with a true gift for design, will never make it much past the starting gates because that isn't who they are and they really were wired to excell at something else - - most likely something I would never be good at.
This is more a commentary on the distinct advantages of being gifted in design/creativity and what extent of achievement possible given that scenario verses someone who is interested/passionate about design/creativity but doesn't have the gift for it. In the latter case, they cannot expect to achieve much more than novice output.
Here is where I prove my case for the reality of in-born gifts (this plays off of Ray Chapman's excellent post above):
A person such as me could take a basketball, practice diligently for 12 hours a day, 7 days a week for 16 years....and while they could improve their skills....they would never - ever - be capable of matching the abilities of Michael Jordan....and they would never even become skilled enough to make the team.
Michael Jordon, I submit....was born with the talent that allowed him to become untouchable.
[ November 08, 2007, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]
Posted by Alicia B. Jennings (Member # 1272) on :
My two cents,,,,Karaoke equals predesigned vector art
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
todd you may have great designer skills(inate)but you really need to learn "people skills"!!!!! as far as "learning" that has to do with a persons ability TO LEARN. iam sure your momma popped you out and you was doin designs as soon as you could hold a pencil)))))). if what you belive is true, none can every do more then they was born to do. if you belive LEARNING is inate ablity..yea to some degree. you had a handle on words.....without LEARNING? NO, you coudl do math with out learning...NO. i betcha you you GOT POTTY TRAINING....thats learning, i hope you mastered it)))))). i was an art major at PENN STATE. was the assistant to the art prof. we did CON-ED classes to a small group of people who wanted to learn to throw pottery in the 1860's style for a bussiness they wished to reserect in their town.(oh, i never seen or touched a pottery wheel till i was 32, and within 8 months i was the assistant to this art prof at PENN STATE, i learned real good huh?)) we(art prof & i)went there and TAUGHT & THEY LEARNED... and now it is the NEW GENEVA POTTERY,McClellandtown, PA. http://www.newgeneva.com/index.htm they learned well. but i will agree to some extent....some people should never even try to learn somethings... me for instance, at 7-10 yrs of age i took classical piano lessons, 10-13 i took acordian lessons....CANT PLAY EITHER!!!!!! but all my life ive been able(inate)to DRAW...started before 1st grade, by the time i was in 1st grade i was doing artwork equal to a 4th or 5th grader, and was always an A for art on any report cards. sign painting came into my life 10-12 yrs old, and have been doing it since off and on most of my life. comes easy to me as does doin mechanic work on most anything. people must be able to learn ....or we all would still be living in cave and eatin raw meat.......
[ November 08, 2007, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
A baby is born with the potential to be able to walk and talk one day. But without exercising that ability, it never will learn to. Most babies are persistent.
I believe we are all born with one or more God given talents whether it be music, art, or....whatever. But that talent must be developed. The difference is purpose and persistence, vs lack of self confidence, or motivation. Music and art have always been my thing, But my battle has always been may lack of self confidence. Some people are artists by nature. But only the persistent, passionate ones will excel.
Posted by Jane Diaz (Member # 595) on :
My take on this question is connected to my teaching experience. I think the word "talent" is what annoys me when people talk about being artistic. To me, it implies that this cloud just settled on that person's head and now they are "talented". You never hear that term used to describe someone who is great at math or science or business. THOSE people, it is assumed, studied, strived and "EARNED" their knowledge.
To me, it is more a matter of interest! IF you are interested in learning to be a great artist or to design a sign or play an instument, you will spend the necessary TIME to learn that skill and want to get better at it. You will take a class, read a book, attend a seminar, learn more info on your own because you are INTERESTED! That's my opinion. I used to hate it when kids used to hide behind the excuse that they weren't "good at art" or "talented". If you aren't interested in learning, that to me would be a more exact statement.
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Six munths ago I kudn't spel sinepaneter ... I bot a kumputer and a cutter ... now I are wun!
[ November 08, 2007, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: Si Allen ]
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Jane - take this in the smiley, good humor it is meant ok?......When someone comments about Joe's neat designs, do you say, "Thank you, yes he's very talented." ? or do you say, "Thank you, he's very persistant."?
Edit: It would be my contention that Joe's skills are the result of the persistent honing of a skill he was born with.
By the way, English punctuation is not my gift...
I think if people would carefully read what I'm saying...it is not that anyone cannot learn something and become a triffle better than they were before studying/practicing...but that they can never achieve moderate to strong skills if they weren't gifted with the talent in the first place.
[ November 08, 2007, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]
Posted by Darcy Baker (Member # 8262) on :
Si, I lyke yer stile
Posted by Joe Cieslowski (Member # 2429) on :
Todd,
Good topic. I think Ray sums up the way I feel best. He has a talent for clarity.
joe,
Makin Chips and Havin Fun! ^ ^ ^ where my talents are Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
The "God given talent" reminds me of a story a good friend of mine told me a number of years back. My friend was a sign painter and a very good one at that. He made a decision, for various reasons, to close his shop and move out of state to take a job with a medium sized sign company. He soon after told me it was a big mistake for a number of reasons, one of which was the owner was a pretty crappy sign painter who produced some lousy looking signs. He told me the boss was going on and on one day about his "God given talent". My friend responded "I don't know about that, I think God has a little better taste than that" Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
The only reason the "talent" seems "God given" to some people is probably because the people with that kind of talent have been cultivating it their entire lives.
Give anyone 20 years of constant practice at anything, and start them off at a very young age, at some point it's going to seem pretty naturally easy to them... because it is, they've only been working at it forever!
My dad used to pull that crap with me, saying that everything came so easy to me when I was a kid. All the musical instruments I played, all the artistic endeavors, the math and science. Funny, because I sure don't remember it that way. I remember countless hours of practicing and studying, but I was interested in it like Jane said.
What burns me now is when people say "Wow, your camera takes nice pictures!" Yeah! It only took me 25 years to find one that does it right!! Posted by Jane Diaz (Member # 595) on :
I understand what you are saying Todd, and yes, I AM proud of my sons, but I think what they have attained in their lives wasn't just "bestowed" upon them nor was it something they earned from persistance. I don't look at it as a talent necessarily. Here's the thing...we have THREE sons. The oldest is a managing director for a big insurance brokerage with a branch in Chicago. He could sell ice cubes to an eskimo! He make the big $$$. But when people talk about his success in the business world, they don't call it talent. They talk about his striving nature and how he worked his way up through the ranks in the corporate world. How is his achievement any different? Was it talent, skill or persistance? Don't you think my boys' experiences in life, who they admired, what they enjoyed doing when they were younger had just as much to do with how they EARNED their skills. Ben and Joe went to almost every Letterhead meet with us. Billy, the oldest, lived with his mother till he was in Jr. High and then lived with us. Did he miss out on this "artistic talent"? Didn't exposure have SOMETHING to do with this? And Ray's comments about being able to SEE what the problem is, is a BIG part of it. When I used to teach students to draw, one of the first things I used to strive to get them to do was LOOK! COMPARE! Don't draw what you think it looks like, LOOK at it and decide what shape it is, is it light or dark, etc... I don't ever remember sitting my boys down and saying "OK today we are going to do a still life." I DO remember that they would draw ALL the time (because they saw US doing it) they would bring their drawings to us and say, "how's this?" I remember them setting up a panel next to their Dad at a meet and people praising them for their efforts. Was that talent or an INTEREST in what they saw around them?
This is a very interesting discussion! I just know that when someone says to me, "Oh, I wish I had your talent." a part of me thinks, "Have you ever TRIED to draw a portrait? How do you KNOW you can't? I bet I could show you how to do it if you really WANTED TO LEARN! Do you have an INTEREST?"
Posted by Frank Magoo (Member # 3950) on :
Todd;
I also don't agree w/your idealogy about learned talent...
Not only does ones personal learning habits have an impact, it's also controlled by ones environment...To me it's about a variety of factors, all coming together at the proper time to produce those above average talents you speak of when mentioning those that have achieved great heights in their careers...
To allow their "natural" talent is the same as saying one is destined to fail simply because nothing of interest ever entered their realm at the proper time...all persons have the ability to achieve greatness in whatever it is that drives them, if all the neccessary requirements fall together at the same time or in a relative short period of time...
In some respects I agree w/Cam, it's not about "natural" talent, it's about fate...and willpower...if given enough input, anyone can achieve whatever heights they wish, nothing natural can stop that, it's about personal desire and fortitude...
"Some people are artists by nature. But only the persistent, passionate ones will excel." (to qoute Wayne)... I also say this rings true to those w/o the so called "natural" talent factor, if enough interest is involved, I believe any and all will perservere to, again, whatever levels they so wish, no naturaliness about that.....AND, just what is "natural" talent anyway? How best is that phrase described? Is it large or small? My point is, if it does indeed exist, how do you recognize it? What characteristics does it possess? Would I be able to pick it out of a crowd because of it's distinct look? And how does one go about seeing inside of ones head to find it? For me, it's easier to accept the fact that when ppl. apply themselves, ANYTHING is possible....... Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Thanks for the responses so far...and thank you for responding to this in the spirit it was intended, which was to simply discuss the philosophy of a persons ability or disability to learn a given skill set.
I can appreciate the various views that differ from mine, and don't condemn anyone for those views, but still would disagree with them.
I know this has started focusing more around the word "talented"...and I probably used it a few times myself, but I tried to keep it more focused on the word "gift" or at least the word talent as referring to an inborn gift.
Anyway, I believe that a person is born with a gift that enables them to achieve great results if acted upon - which is in part something I think we could sort of compromise to agree on? An apptitude for a certain skill won't go anywhere without the perseverance and determination that many of you have articulated.
However, I still think that people are specifically gifted in certain areas, and I just realized how I could support this assertion:
Everyone who has disagreed with my premise, has stated that given an interest, determination, practice, etc can learn to be as good as they want at virtually anything....and that it isn't an inborn gift or talent.
So, how do explain "Gifted Children"....who have achieved extraordinary creative and intellectual feats WITHOUT the benefit of, or intervention of instruction and practice over a long period of time? They learned to talk within weeks, are able to play musical instruments expertly with very little instruction or master mathmatics and language skills years in advance of their peers. They have graduate degrees from colleges before the average man/woman has graduated from high school.
This is an example of hyper-giftedness....to the extreme. They were born with the gift to excel in a particular area....creatively, intellectually, or otherwise.
It cannot be explained away as, "This person worked their buns off for 20 years to become the talent they are today."
There are even organizations supporting gifted children, and parents of gifted children. Scientists, phsychologists support the notion of being born with a particular gift.
Here's a description I pulled off of one site:
quote:The Javits Act (1988) This definition is taken from the Javits Act, which provides grants for education programs serving bright children from low-income families: "The term gifted and talented student means children and youths who give evidence of higher performance capability in such areas as intellectual, creative, artistic, or leadership capacity, or in specific academic fields, and who require services or activities not ordinarily provided by the schools in order to develop such capabilities fully."
So they are saying they recognize that these kids do in fact possess an inborn gift, and that with the proper guidance, they can exploit these gifts in miraculous ways which someone without this aptitude could never hope to accomplish.
I believe that the ability to conceptualize and see the big picture for making money is an inborn gift.
I believe salesmanship is a gift and an extension of gifted communication skills.
I really don't think that anybody, no matter how well trained can become a good salesperson. They might learn the right thing to say...but they will not have the charisma that a successful salesperson will have to make a person feel like they are buying a product from their best friend. The gift of communication and salesmanship are tied directly into one's personality...which we all know is there from birth.
And how can you explain away an autistic child who may be seriously challenged intellectually, yet they can listen to Mozart on the radio...and sit down and play it perfectly from memory on a piano when they never had a piano lesson in their life.
It's a brain thing...endowed at birth....in varying degrees.
[ November 08, 2007, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]
Posted by Dale Manor (Member # 4858) on :
As with most subjects related to human behavior, this is not a black and white question.
I think there are many factors which determine how well someone performs in their chosen field.
I've always had an interest in the visual arts. When I was young I drew and painted or built models or anything, just to be doing something creative. At some of these tasks I did quite well. At others I failed as well as anyone could! I think two things have a lot to do with my own success as a designer or artist....one is passion, and the other confidence. I was very passionate about a few things when I was young and I took the time to learn as much as I could about them. I spent a lot of time working at getting better and perfecting my skills. How does "talent" factor into this...who knows. As I became more skilled at something, I gained confidence and wanted to do it more. I took on jobs that were at or beyond my skill level. When the task was completed successfully the confidence level went up as did my passion for that craft or art.
I myself attended college after working for many years and earned a BFA with a concentration in Industrial Design. I went to college with some young guys who had varied levels of "talent" or skills sets. When we all started out I could see that my 10 years of work experience made me a bit faster at completing a design project. But by the time we were in our third year courses, those same guys were catching up fast, and were becoming great designers.
I went on to work in that same Univerity for 6 years and I witnessed hundreds of students who might not have been "filled with talent" go on to become incredibly talented artists and designers. The most successful of the students/designers were the ones with the greatest passion. Those same students were also very confident in their abilities and applied everything they had learned along the way. Some of these students are designing the computers you use and the motorcycles, and cars you are buying right now.
I agree that there are some individuals who accell at something very naturally...they are called prodigies. But there are a lot more people out there who apply what the have learned and become very successful on their chosen field!
Posted by William Holohan (Member # 2514) on :
Dale, You win the "lower bunk" with those observations. The lower bunk is supplied with ear plugs and sound deadening ear protectors.
[ November 08, 2007, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: William Holohan ]
Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
Todd, I believe we all agree that some children/adults are gifted, which makes it much easier for them learn in the areas they are gifted in...
Your original post states... But I don't believe that someone without the "in-born" gift can be "taught" to become a good designer. And then you go on to say... I know in my heart of hearts I will never be a good automotive mechanic...or a world class dancer....or come even close to being able to play the guitar like Jimi Hendrix. Those two statements are comparing apples and oranges... even though you might not be a Jimi Hendrix, I can guarantee you that you could learn to play a guitar proficiently enough to be in a band, if you took lessons, practiced every day and were passionate about it and improving your skills. The same thing applies to the other fields you mentioned.
So, even though it is very rare that someone could attain to the beautiful design work of Gary Anderson, to say that someone cannot even just be 'GOOD' at it unless they have this 'GIFT' is a bit of a stretch...
Here is a long and boring example of how passion works... I have loved flying and airplanes since I was a kid. I would run out of the house EVERY time a plane went over to see what it was, much to the irritation of my parents. I'd read about different kinds of planes, how they flew, what made them fly, learned all the terms, and asked my dad so many questions they called me Jonathan 'Question' Mark Jantz...
When I was sixteen, I built a radio control airplane. The hobby shop owner had recommended a trainer, but I wanted something that could do aerobatics... (which makes it harder to fly.) He also said I needed to find someone who knew what they were doing and have them help me learn... ("Or you'll be back in here buying parts every few days") Anyway, I built it up, took it out and on the second time of taxiing down the road took the plane off and flew it around. It took a minute or two to get used to the sensitivity of the sticks... I kept it up for about 10 minutes... even did a loop with it, then landed it. Didn't crash that plane for months and within a few weeks was doing advanced aerobatic maneuvers with it.
A few of my buddies got interested in R/C and also built planes. It took weeks for me to get them to be able to take off and land by themselves. Most of them never did get that good at flying, eventually quitting at some point because it was 'just too hard to keep it all in one piece'. I fully believe it was harder for them because they were never that 'in' to planes... A couple of them still fly today, and are decent pilots, but have never gotten into the wilder aerobatics.
I don't believe there is a category in the 'Talent' list for flying R/C airplanes, but my passion for flying and knowledge made it much easier for me to learn.
Also, if you became interested, I have no doubt I could also teach YOU to become a very good R/C pilot, but it would take a lot of practice, persistance and desire to learn on your part.
Also, I think Dale Manor pretty much hit the nail on the head...
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Thanks all, it is very interesting reading your views....I can appreciate the different perspectives on this...Have a great night everyone.
Posted by Michael R. Bendel (Member # 5847) on :
Please note that I COMPLETELY, WHOLE HEARTEDLY disagree with Todd.
With that said...I commend him for having the courage to speak his mind. NICE!
I understand that Todd wasn't putting himself above or beyond, it is simply his opinion.
K-THEN! MY OPINION.... (Please forgive me for my typing is not passionate or "given by God").
Passion... Heart... focus.... can teach you most anything in life with a few acceptions...
30 mile per hour is fast enough for you? Goodbye Nascar!
Faint at the site of blood? Wave good bye to the NFL!
If you are 4'7", stay away from basketball! If you are 7' 11"... stay away from jockeying!
If you have a passion for art & you are of sound mind & normal intelligence & have at least one arm (or in some instances, no arms & one foot), you have the chance of becomeing something great!
Focus with your heart, learn everything you can learn, observe the world around you, & with time.... you will succeed.
Maybe you will struggle to mediocrity?
Maybe you will become the next Michelangelo?
With sound mind & strong heart... you can achieve, "God Given Talent", and surpass the weak hearted who claim "God given talent".
I love your post Todd! Thank you! Keep 'em comin! I have & will do the same..... Who knows? Maybe that's MY "God given" talent?
Let those with "God given talent", & the rest of us...bow our heads & pray. Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
I can only approach this from personal experience...
Growing up with a mom who did artwork, and a long line of musicians in the family, most people assumed I would be "artistic" as well. As early as age 6, I was winning blue ribbons for drawings, playing drums and always drawing in my spare time. Everyone put the credit on my family gene pool.
Going into my teens, the interest was there, but not the education. I didn't know the rudimentary skills and was overreaching a lot. Taking fine art lessons and later going through commercial art classes in high school were very key in fine tuning basic skills I lacked. Color theory, illustration, layouts...all in a wide variety of mediums...without that education, I'd probably still be struggling to draw Spiderman's shoes right.
I honestly don't think latent ability is the ONLY key to becoming a good designer. Underneath all the natural talent and education anyone could gather, there still remains the one thing anyone with the desire to excel needs...
Call it drive, determination, willpower...whatever you wish...but without passion, you will only learn as much as you are taught and the road ends there. Going that extra step, being willing to learn even more and constantly better yourself...that's the road to take. It's also why many of us come here to Letterville.
I wasn't born with an airbrush or pencils attached to my hip from day one, but as the years and experience continue to pile up, I have grown more comfortable with them around.
One of these day I might actually get good at this stuff. Rapid
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
I have only seen this word use a few times in this post "SKILLS" "God given Talent", sure OK!
As some said, we take an interest in something and start to per sue it. Next we seek help in honing that skill. We educate ourselves with written and verbal/ visual learning tools. This is not a supreme being gift to man, it is a will of someone to strive in their interested field.
WE as individual think "yes" that was all "me" that created that! And forget that any idea was derived from many different factor of input from others.
Most time with one input the idea is in a raw form,with 2 inputs it becomes refined and with many inputs it becomes the masterpiece it was to be.
Todd one think you have to remember, that in ones eye it is a 'Masterpiece' and someone else it is a piece of 'Junk'.
Who am I to say which is which!
[ November 09, 2007, 08:52 AM: Message edited by: Stephen Deveau ]
Posted by bruce ward (Member # 1289) on :
no! Just check out some poeple that went to college that work in ad agencies....you can tell whose got it and who doesnt
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
I'll jump back in here... one of Todd's original statements was that without "god's gift", a designer could only learn to reproduce the same basic designs, over and over.
So what??
Even that very basic level of competence would spell a vast improvement over the sheer ghastliness, the utter lack of basic skill that is painfully evident on every street. We currently have an industry that sets people up in business with not even the most fundamental training or basic skills - and as a result, the majority of the work produced is complete rubbish. That's not anyone's fault, but it IS a major reason that our trade is looked upon with such disdain by the business community at large, and by the visual arts and advertising industries in particular.
Anyone with the interest and desire to learn a few basic rules can improve their design skills. Is it too much to ask that we make a formal effort to teach so-called sign "professionals" WHY you shouldn't put script on an arc, or WHY you shouldn't fill every inch on a panel, or WHY fonts should be chosen that are readable, not just on a page or a computer screen, but from a speeding car? Just as every musician starts by learning the scales, every skill - including sign design - STARTS with learning the FUNDAMENTALS. Yet the training in these fundamentals is virtually non-existent in our trade - and the results are not only visually appalling, they have a negative impact on ALL of us by denigrating the public's perception of our industry.
Can anybody tell me what "talent" or "innate ability" or "gods gifts" have to do with ANY of that? Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
quote:Even that very basic level of competence would spell a vast improvement over the sheer ghastliness, the utter lack of basic skill that is painfully evident on every street.
I can agree with that.... It beats nephew art, and in that light, I'd have to alter my views a bit.
You've made a great case in that single sentence.
I also agree...as I've pretty much stated with Ray Rheaume's assesment:
quote:I honestly don't think latent ability is the ONLY key to becoming a good designer. Underneath all the natural talent and education anyone could gather, there still remains the one thing anyone with the desire to excel needs...
Mike - LOL....while we disagree on this topic, I appreciate the way in which you voiced your opinion.
I think it has been a concept worthy of vigorous discussion.
I still believe that certain people are gifted in certain ways, and I think I've laid out a pretty good case for it.....but I will concede to Cam's end, that it is better to train the untalented and at least get them to a degree of acceptability that makes the landscape a little less grotesque....
Thanks for everyone's contributions...pro or con. Have an awesome weekend.
Posted by Michael Clanton (Member # 2419) on :
This type of topic is covered extensively in just about every freshmen level college sociology class in the country.
Sure, everyone is wired different from birth, which allows us to be better at certain tasks than others, but other factors such as upbringing, environment, education, motivation, personality, etc. can be just as important in forming the ultimate end result of what makes each person a unique being.
Your original statement is basically taking one element and making a gross generalization that could easily be disproved countless times by even more countless people.
But no 2 people are exactly the same, so there is no way to form such a conclusion comparing apples to oranges. It's like saying, " Some of the great artists in history were left-handed, so therefore you have to be left-handed to be a great artist", which comes out, "You can't be a great artist if your right-handed."
I am wired "Right Brained" creative and I choose to pursue certain avenues that I am suited for-- easier and more natural for me to excel at-- but I have also learned how to do a few things that are very hard for me, definatly not in my "giftings"- as you put it.
My upbringing, family, personality, environment and motivation contributes to the fact that I have the ability to be successful in these avenues, as well-- but it is a difficult task, so most of the time, I choose to stick with what I am good at.
Posted by Ken Henry (Member # 598) on :
From this discussion, which has been most interesting BTW, there was one comment by Cam, that sparked an idea for a great "tag line".
" We do visually appealing.....NOT visually appalling ! "
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Shall I say that once they crawled on their kuckles! And now they stand on their feet! Give me the reason to believe it was a gift or born talent (Gods gift of Talent) and I will prove it was skills in time.
So Todd...'Dream on!'
To think that you are 'special' next to the other beings of this planet... There are insects that will amase us in their own knowledge of how to do the base structures..
All of being born with the same instinct and learning from others.
Posted by Steve Purcell (Member # 1140) on :
Science tells us that our brains, like our bodies are subject to hereditary variations. So it is quite plausible that some folks have a a biological leg up.
That being said, my own belief is that we are born with very similar potential, and that our personalities and proclivities are largely formed during the developmental years.
Something as basic as sign design can be learned by anyone who has been wired early in life to be open and curious, traits that are essential to efficient learning.
Posted by jack wills (Member # 521) on :
The truth is....God did not give a damn thing to any special person except the ability to use reason. Those with talent aquired it,period. As a aprentice sign writer, I can simply say that the only learned rule was keep out of the way, watch and listen hard cause it usually only comes around once. (info). I prayed to the sign holy's and any other high lords for guidence and got $h!t... After coating out hundreds of sheets of unprimed MDO, finally one day a journeyman asked me to fill in some large type (helvetica) on a batch of billboard panels. Did I Pee my pants? You bet. I got to touch a real sign brush. The rest was not history yet though. A few years later while working with Jesse Callo, at his small shop in Mountain View,CA, I started to touch all kinds of brushes. (Still have some of them). The secret (at the time) was revealed to me what Jesse, had figgered' out was...most of the good ideas were available from magazine ads, lots of labels on the grocery shelves and the library was full of good ideas that could make a smart sign painter look like a gift from heaven. That's pretty much how the whole deal shakes out. Just copy and alter something you find like all of us do (nothin'new under the sun) and move on. Rollin' like a big wheel in a Georgia cotton field...Honey Hush! See: Joe Turner, the true creator of thr term..."Rock and Roll"
Thasit'
CrazyJack
Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
While I do fimly believe that we are all given certain gifts, without training, even the best artist can't be a good designer.
When we learn the rules via the Mike Stevens book, or any kind of layout class, we get better at making signs and logos. When a person with a natural eye for color and balance comes along and learns the rules, then you have something. But even a mediocre artist or a person with no art skills can become a halfway decent designer, with a little bit of education.
Love....Jill
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
quote:The truth is....God did not give a damn thing to any special person except the ability to use reason. Those with talent aquired it,period. As a aprentice sign writer, I can simply say that the only learned rule was keep out of the way, watch and listen hard cause it usually only comes around once. (info). I prayed to the sign holy's and any other high lords for guidence and got $h!t...
Jack - I think God probably has a different opinion regarding your comment;
Romans 12: 6-8
quote:We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. 7. If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8. if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.
I do think from what others have stated, and what I'm reading above, that whatever gift you are born with must be aggressively acted upon and pursued to fulfill it's full measure of perfection....
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Here we go again with Religion.
Here Todd tell us if this is a 'Born Talent'
This book is very real and many creators of all species have been trained to reproduce images.
Remember "Coco the Ape" that used sign language.
Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
I'm sure most people have stopped reading this thread, so I'm safe to write my novel. It will bore only a few of you.
Is it really necessary to discuss the origins of latent ability? Whether the ability springs from God or Stephen's jellyfish, the real question has been whether latent ability (talent) exists at all. Does everyone start out with the same basic set of raw abilities, which then get magnified in certain areas (like art) through passion, dedication, and education? Do some have those areas pre-developed?
As some have stated already, I think the answer is more complicated than simply choosing nature or nurture.
Savants have abilities which exceed comprehension. Child prodigies may have spent a lifetime of education and dedication to their field of expertise, but that lifetime often fits within the space of just a few years. Those facts alone imply that the starting line for children is more likely to be staggered than straight. Children will crawl, talk, walk, and run at different rates, given very similar opportunities to practice. It would appear that certain latent abilities are greater in some than in others.
On the other hand, we have all heard stories about people who have developed abilities they didn't know they had. Einstein comes to mind. Countless anthletes have far exceeded anyone's expectations of their abilities. It seems that even ordinary people can do extraordinary things if they put their minds to it. I suspect that most of us are not prodigies, but we do have latent ability which may be less or more than the average person has. If the ability can be found, it can developed.
But, can education, passion, and dedication turn the designer equivalent of a 98lb weakling into a Charles Atlas of aesthetic excellence? I honestly don't know.
In my own life it seems experience can unlock abilities. I took two years of high school Spanish and didn't learn much at all. I could barely count, and I couldn't even carry on a simple conversation. At that time I would have thought my ability to learn languages was pretty poor.
Later I spent two years in Guatemala and became fluent in Spanish in spite of myself. I also took two semesters of German in college which I did fairly well in. I'm not conversational in German, but I know I could be if I spent enough time speaking it. My ability to learn a language is probably no greater than anyone else's, but now I know I can do something I never thought possible.
One particular semester of college I had 6 or 7 of my friends decide to take guitar lessons. It seemed like there were guitars everywhere, and I would pick them up and try in vain to make pleasant sounds. I asked one friend (who could play) to teach me a song, and he taught a really simple Bon Jovi tune. It had a total of 4 chords. He taught me the strum pattern too.
I'm sure he regretted it because I played that song at least 1000 times. I found other songs that used the same chords and played them to death too. Other chords were added as my ability increased. I also learned to vary the strum pattern. Over time my fingers became more cooperative, and I didn't have to think as hard about what I was doing. I'm still not a great guitar player, but I can play well enough to sing along to some nice tunes and have other people sing too.
What I find interesting is how mechanical and stiff my playing sounds when I'm learning something new, and how much more of myself I can put into it once I reach a certain plateau of ability. Members of my family have called my ability to play the guitar a talent. I didn't start out with any special ability, and I don't feel like I'm even good enough to play in a band, so I'm not sure what the word talent means in this sense. It seems more like an increased capacity to play after many many hours of practice. Hard work does pay off.
Art seems to have been a part of my life from my first memories. As a kid I was drawing constantly. I just loved doing it. I seemed to have more drawing ability than most kids, but then again, I was doing a lot more drawing than most kids. I have no doubt that any "talent" I might have started with was benefitted greatly with constant practice. I know I was improving over the years, but I wasn't really aware of how much improvement was possible until I got to college. I had some excellent teachers that opened my eyes to things I may never have figured out on my own. My work improved a lot in just a few short years. Hard work does pay off, and yet there are artists who are still lightyears ahead of me. Can I ever catch up to them? I don't know. Am I willing to put in the effort to find out? That is a more important question.
I don't think it would take a lifetime to teach someone to be a better designer. "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain" is a book that shows how students can drastically improve their ability to "see", which drastically improves their ability to draw. I don't see why this couldn't be done for design as well.
This is way too long, so I will summerize by saying I think we all start with varying degrees of ability, and we can all improve on the abilities we have. Someone may improve in small increments, and with the same amount of effort someone else may take massive strides. Latent ability is there, but hard work pays off no matter where someone happens to be on the continuum.
There, I feel better now. Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
I think I pretty much agree with that assessment Russ...
quote: Latent ability is there, but hard work pays off no matter where someone happens to be on the continuum.
I think latent (dormant,inborn) ability is there...and I definitely agree that practice and instruction can enhance that ability - especially and more profoundly in people that have that latent gift to begin with....if I am following you, Russ.
I drew a lot too...throughout my childhood growing up. Although I never took art courses in school...and had my first real instruction at Kendall School of Design (now, Kendall College of Art and Design)....which, while it has a great reputation....didn't really add significantly to my skills as a designer or artist in my opinion - not to say I didn't get some value from it.
I think I pretty much enhanced my skills by my own efforts and achieved more by incorporating what my eye told me was good art, composition, or technique by merely observing others art...and emulating what appeared to me as the strong points of each piece. I felt I could see what was good or effective....and see how it was achieved.
Believe it or not...a lot of inspiration came from comic books. The design and layout of each comic strip cell was an example of design and art of it's own accord that provided unspoken instruction.
I will still do that today....everywhere I go, I notice the design and creative aspects of many things....whether it's the industrial design beauty of an AR-15 or a neat little pattern or texture on a shampoo bottle at the grocery store.
But I always felt I had the gift in me from birth...and the ability to see and understand the workings of good art....what makes good art effective. I think I have grown over the years in my ability to design through observation and self-exploration.
I don't think my measure of this inborn gift is nearly as good as some, without question...but it's also not as minimal as others.
It's an interesting concept to explore....
Russ - you have a very strong talent (no pun intended) on writing and expressing your thoughts.
[ November 10, 2007, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
While some folks here do no believe in the existence of God or the possibility of a greater power intervening in the lives of us mortals, the original question was about "talent"...and we have pretty well gone around the mountain on that subject.
Most of us here are designers. We take those designs and develop them into something that is physical, although they began only as a thought. Some are simple and some are complex. In my opinion, to view the universe as an accident or a series of unexplained occurances is like saying that a Las Vegas mega-structure was once a magnetic sign. In our physical world we assume that a building, a vehicle, furniture, etc. all had a designer. I wonder why we can then accept the universe as an accident. Design demands a designer.
To those who opinions differ from mine, you certainly have that privilege and can disagree with me. Not everyone has to have the same opinion as mine, but mine can be expressed here just the same as yours and we can still get along with each other.
Several have mentioned Gary Anderson during this thread and many admire his abilities as being the ultimate which we all try to emulate. It's as if we are saying many can be good sign designers but most will never become a Gary Anderson. Now, where did Gary get or acquire that ability. Was it something that is innate or did he pull himself up by his own bootstraps...or is it a combination of both. It would be interesting to hear his evaluation.
Just one more point and I'll go coat out some MDO. I don't think there is any force that makes us act against our will. We pretty well do what we want to do. Certainly, there are influences in our lives (parents, enviornment, mentors, etc.) but we still have the free choice to make decisions for ourselves and follow whatever path we choose. Some make good choices and others fail. Those that succeed (however you define success) are the ones that find a passion for doing what they find most fulfilling.
End of sermon.
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Russ you don't get the point of this!
It swam in the 'Oceans' and then crawled on the 'Shores' and next stood on two 'Legs' and began 'Fire' and next started drawing images on 'Walls'.
Evolution is the key of building great things. So little words are needed but the fact that our 'Building Blocks' are all around us.
[ November 10, 2007, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Deveau ]
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
the oceans are great Stephen... however far you go back with your theory, you still find greatness...
...maybe evolution wasn't responsible for all great things?
...maybe it was??
...maybe talking like you know things others don't know isn't such a great thing??
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Doug
You and I have dicuss things in the past and I am going to keep this civil.
Quote... ".maybe talking like you know things others don't know isn't such a great thing?"
But how do we get ideas acrossed to each other if there is not a debate? I believe in a natural learnt/skill talent.
Todd thinks there is a 'All Mighty' given talent.
I like to say that I have never seen anyone derive a final output of anything without evolving the thought process of others first.
[ November 10, 2007, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Deveau ]
Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
Stephen, I admit I may not get "your" point, but then again, I often have a hard time understanding what your point is. I'm not trying to be rude. Sometimes the way you write is not clear to me.
I do understand that you want to debate religion versus evolution. In this forum it is my point to avoid that argument entirely.
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Alright...
Whoever first designed drywall and made it so damn hard is a talentless hack. They should have made it softer so it doesn't hurt as bad when people like me bang their heads against it!!
Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
quote:Originally posted by Russ McMullin: Stephen, I admit I may not get "your" point, but then again, I often have a hard time understanding what your point is. I'm not trying to be rude. Sometimes the way you write is not clear to me.
I do understand that you want to debate religion versus evolution. In this forum it is my point to avoid that argument entirely.
its not rude,the percentage of things he comes up with that follow any kind of logical train of thought run at less than 2% and thats being generous
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
[ November 10, 2007, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
So Gavin!
Thank you, for slagging myself because of a different belief. I guess I do not fit into the NorM.
I didn't start this post. Just posting a different Thought!
[ November 10, 2007, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Deveau ]
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
I do owe a apology to Russ.
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
When a discussion reaches a point where participants are apologizing, it's a good indication the topic is turning into a debate instead of a friendly discussion.
There is a difference between the two. One is just an exchange of opinion. A debate is more like a contest with expectations of a winner and loser. If you find yourself posting more than once or twice on a topic, one might argue that a debate is the goal rather than just offering your own opinion.
In any case, I've decided to close this discussion and try to enjoy a Saturday night babysitting our Grand Daughter. It beats jumping up every hour to babysit grown adults.
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