I hesitated for awhile about writing this, but I'm really looking for a solution before we lose some more good'uns. I've recently spoken with several people who formerly were regular posters on here and now refuse to come back. The specific reasons may differ, but it seems to boil down to a basic lack of communication somewhere down the line.
I have a fairly thin skin, so I try not to get involved in a post that's likely to get personal or mean-spirited, but sometimes the BB monster rears its ugly head and smacks us. My response to John Deaton a few months ago was probably a big part of why we don't see him anymore here, and for that, I am truly sorry. It was simply misconstrued statements that snowballed and now we've lost someone who was a very positive influence on this board.
Several years ago, Ricky Jackson got fed up with the negative comments and we lost a mentor who contributed many long and well-conceived posts. I'm really glad he came back.
Some of the others we may never see again, and it's a doggone shame. I won't name any names, but if you've been here as long as I have and read the BB regularly, you know who I'm talking about. There are so many good things and lasting friendships coming directly from this website, and so much happening in the background that is heartfelt and significant. I'm amazed at all the behind-the-scenes things I hear about and it makes me thankful to be a part of Letterville.
Steve and Barb have provided us a very special community and I know this troubles them as well - I just wish we could convince some of our brothers and sisters to return and also come up with a way to make sure EVERYONE feels welcome here.
Any suggestions??????
Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :
The only thing I can think of Sonny, is to mind our manners at all times. Don't get involved in stupid stuff. Don't start stupid stuff. Don't always try to get in the last word, just our message is enough. Don't care if we're right or wrong, just share what we do know.
Most that have left like you say have been involved in heated stuff. Everyone has the same choice in front of them, whether to get involved or not. A little self control can go a long way.
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Hate to say this ... but ... grow a thicker skin ... or ... give up reading/posting on BBs! It is now a fact of life!
It doesn't matter which BB you go to...signs, guns, flowers, cooking, etc. there are always a few bullies that have to start the crap! It makes them feel like big shots hiding behind a keyboard.
Just my 2¢ !
Posted by W. R. Pickett (Member # 3842) on :
...I see Letterville as a feeling based 'sympathy site' as much as it is about SIGNS. I enjoy reading the petty controversies (and personal attacks) that arise over the provocative, silly and stupid stuff that people write. While this is a site for SIGNS, it's the 'off color', political and religious comments that make for the most interesting reading. While I find these aspects of this place amusing, they put many others off, and certainly could discourage many knowledgable sign makers from ever participating. ...I can see why persons who are seeking actual knowledge would be turned off by people who hog the bb w. daily, ten paragraph posts, all about how wonderful (or miserable) their life is. And the the multitudes 'happy birthday', 'pray for my sick family member', love of the military, christanity, guns and republicans. And posts with loads of undue praise heaped upon photos of poorly designed, unimaginative signage. ...Like SI says, you have to grow a thick skin if you want to play here. Just like in real life, we have to tolerate alot of dumb stuff and wade through vast inanities to find the few tidbits of actual knowledge. ...Peace, love and Bobby Shermin everybody!
Posted by Jon Butterworth (Member # 227) on :
OLD SAYING: "Sticks and stones might break my bones ... but bad words never hurt me"
I have witnessed the comings and goings here, (and in "Chat") over 10 years now. Sad to say many good people let trivial things get to them. As Si says you need a thick skin.
This site is a wealth of sharing knowledge and experience. It has also brought together in "real life" fellow signwriters from all over the world at Meets. That's what counts.
When somebody starts slinging mud ... fisically we are so far apart in the "real world" it won't reach Mentally ... who cares?. You can watch an ape go ape in a cage but he can't touch you.
What do you do with spam telling you need a viagra or you need a bigger penis?
As to getting good people back ... .... I'm sure they lurk in and out. It's really up to their choice. All we can offer is the majority of people here care.
Posted by Brad Farha (Member # 931) on :
quote:Originally posted by Si Allen: Hate to say this ... but ... grow a thicker skin ... or ... give up reading/posting on BBs! It is now a fact of life!
It doesn't matter which BB you go to...signs, guns, flowers, cooking, etc. there are always a few bullies that have to start the crap! It makes them feel like big shots hiding behind a keyboard.
Just my 2¢ !
+ another 2¢ from me
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
Jon, I find that sticks and stones addage to be a lie. I've healed from all the physical wounds in life, but found that words and hurtful intentions seem to be about all that really hurt.
If our intentions are toward building what we have in common, and someone gets hurt in the process, hopefully they can inspect the intention and get past it.
Posted by Jon Butterworth (Member # 227) on :
Rick
That addage was taught to me by my mother about the schoolyard.
Are not we a schoolyard?
Posted by Robert Larkham (Member # 2913) on :
I post very seldom...used to post daily. Haven't been to a live meet in over three years. Made some great friends here and they know who they are.
Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
Sonny, I've wonder the same thing. I've only been here a short while compared to you, but there are several people who used to post regularly that I really miss. They were residents too, so running them off actually hurts the support of Letterville, but the real loss is their perspective on the questions and conversations that take place here.
One thing I try to think about occasionally when I bang out a sarcastic or scathing reply is "Would I say this to this person if he were standing in front of me?" I've deleted many comments after a second thought, and was glad later I didn't reply. When reading this forum, other peoples posts are just some words on the screen, coming from a little text name up on the left hand side. It's a lot easier to type out a bunch of harsh words, and hit 'Add Reply' and then forget about it, when you are not face to face with the poster.
I agree with Si, it's good to have a thick skin and the ability to let the negative run off without taking it personally. I also agree with Billy's assessment (which is rare, since I am pro-military-gun-religion-republican and usually wish people 'happy birthday')
SUMMARY: Think before you post: "If I was in a conversation with these six people at a meet, would I make this comment to this person, face to face..."
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
I too have been around this board for along time and have learnt to live with everyone from time to time.
I can take a big stick and beat you back! but it doesn't justify in the end.
The learning curve with the wealth of knowledge is the only reason I visit.
I have not! and never will! Ask for help as a visitor.
But I will post help 'On how to Topics' when needed and give the odd slap on the cuff to some that I know will take it with a grain of salt.
Remember that we are all artist in life and our judgements takes us down each road path....
Look Boss! The Plane! The Plane!
[ September 04, 2007, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Deveau ]
Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
I was thinking about this very topic the other day, it seems we loose a lot more than we realize. Some do retire and go on to other things as well, so that makes an impact. I too miss John Deaton and I wish that he's doing better for himself, he was a great addition to this site.
Another thing, Financial troubles, as well as other stresses, can make people do things they normally would'nt do.. so some extra patience is needed sometimes by all parties..God know's I've said and done some weird things in my life.
This is still a great Forum, hope it sticks around for a long while.
Posted by Nancie W. Phillips (Member # 3484) on :
One of the beautiful things about this community is that it's an "open" one. Unless someone really gets offensive, we are all free to come and/or go. What I find is in the ebb & flow of life, a lot come, some go, and many come back. This site is more relationship based than just technical based. That's what I really like about it. Maybe some don't. They're welcome to their opinion, and I'll respect it. I also agree with Si. Maybe another way to put it is that sometimes we hafta give some folks more "grace".
Posted by Jane Diaz (Member # 595) on :
I think that there are probably things said here that are later regretted. And sometimes I think it has to do with the fact that people can't sense when you are joking or teasing. And when it is written it is harder to tell someone's intention than it is when you are standing next to them. Some people can "jokingly" be sarcastic and it is not taken that way here. I know I have had my "feelings hurt" on several occasions (and been apologized to on several occasions too) and I HOPE I have not offended anyone, but you never know.... I really think that the golden rule, do unto others as you would have them do unto you, is key here. I don't like when people are mean or sarcastic to me, do you? This is such a great place for learning but the "drama" gets to me too some days. I usually take a break from here for a few days when that happens. But I'll admit, it depends on the issue and what mood I'm in sometimes. It IS sad that someone would feel that they had to leave this community because they were so badly hurt, though.
Posted by Patrick Wedel (Member # 5256) on :
My 2 cents......
Try not to make people feel stupid, or that they don't know something they should know. We all have to start somewhere. There are no dumb questions, just dumb answers.
Posted by Jamie Nicholson (Member # 6690) on :
I have only been on this board for alittle over a year, and love it.It is full of great people, personality's and a wealth of information. If a topic comes up and the hurtful comments start flying......I merely close the topic and read the next one. No point in reading a bunch of negative, hurtful things, Life is full enough of that crap.
"Stickers" 2 cents
Posted by Deri Russell (Member # 119) on :
I've only been here for a while. But I really enjoy the different thoughts everyone has on different topics. To me its an informative, inspirational place to be. I have never seen anyone say anything like "Geez that was a stupid question!" So I assume that the squabbles were personal remarks. Which is hard to figure out. Because we really don't know each other well enough to judge each other...... about anything. We get glimpses into each others personal lives online,and occasionally we get to meet them in person at one meet or another, but to say that person doesn't like me, or I don't like that person? Ha! We don't really have a clue what they are like or what they are thinking. Or what their mood is that day, or why. And sometimes the little emoticoms or whatever thay are called help us to decipher when someone is joking or being sarcastic or when they aren't, but we don't put one at the end of every sentence. I have been misunderstood here, and I have misunderstood other people's remarks. That is life. It happens everywhere. And considering we are all of "Artistic Temperment" I think we do pretty darn well. The more people who are on here the more information we have. Forget yesterday. Today is another day.
The internet has destroyed the lives of some of our younger folks, the chat lines, the hate mail. And we have seen suicides and murders from it. Let's try to handle this "tool of learning" better than the younger generation. It's a shame to waste the possibilities.
Posted by Dan Antonelli (Member # 86) on :
I have curtailed a lot of my participation here as well. It's not so much a question of being thick-skinned, for me at least. But I will admit that there have been times when my contributions have been met with resistance, or a lot of 'that doesn't work here' attitudes. Or that I'm simply bragging how great I am or my company is.
I have no hidden agendas here. And if I say or advocate something, its because I believe in it, and it has worked for me.
I frequently have chosen not to post a response, because no matter what I might say, it could be contrued as self serving (ie., comments on web design, because we also do web design). So it sort of became a catch 22. Do I say what's really wrong with someone's site, or will it look like I'm trying to prove how smart I am - or worse yet - that I'm actively soliciting business? Regardless, it's a no-win for me.
There's a lot of ego at play; and I'm clearly not above anyone else or better than anyone else. I have been successful, and I make a good living at what I do; and I'll make no apologies for that. But if I say I want to retire at 50 (and can afford to do so) than I'm bragging. If I post pics of my new car, or share the joy and having my company break the $1m barrier in sales, than I'm also 'rubbing it in'. I think on more than one occassion I've been accused her of being elitist. I never thought I came across that way, but when someone says that, it makes me think twice of posting a response that, no matter wha I might say, could be construed as such.
Whether that is actually true or not, I don't know. But you can sometimes get that feeling. So if that makes me thin-skinned, well so be it.
THe same scenario unfolded with Dan S, who's own success stories have been met with the usual 'that wont work for me' attitudes.
And of course, I'm not a real sign company anymore either - so I guess that has certainly made me feel my contributions are less important. But clearly, many sign companies wish to go more in the direction that I have taken my company.
Truth be told, so many family, friends and associates also told me that my business plans wouldn't work for me. Those people are defeatist, and they chose to let their own insecurities, and fear cloud their judgement.
For me, I want to be surrounded by people who say they can do anything; and refuse to make excuses. Dan S is a good example. Can you imagine Dan going to the bank and pitching them his idea on his business? How many doors you think got slammed in his face before he was met with success?
I guess after so many years of trying to say the same things, and advocate on behalf of this industry, I'm tired of the prevailing attitude that afflicts those who make excuses for their lack of success. You choose a path for yourself, and you work down that path towards your goals. No one else is responsible for your success, or lack of, but yourself.
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
Well said Dan.
Posted by Frank Magoo (Member # 3950) on :
I get along w/most in here, other than that short Texan fellow, does he ever shut up? Always w/the long drawn out replies....
That said (which btw was sarcastic humor), it's about perception I believe...if Raymond now preceives me as somone that doesn't like him, he would be right to think so, as I wasn't in person to provide the facial nuances neccessary to pull off "dry" humor, but if I made an effort to make sure he understood I was kidding (hence smiley face) , then it will come across as humor, it's original intent...so yes, it's about perception or preceived perception...
Then there are those that can't get past their own egoes and trip over them everywhere, not just here, imagine their daily routine(i know, spelling).....
What bothers me most is the need for thick skin, though in this particular jaundra, it's a neccessary evil or evel, whichever works for you, (me? evel-heheh)
Sonny, I find your character above board, to acknowledge your own fault took courage, a trait more could use and benefit from..... Posted by Susan Banasky (Member # 1164) on :
Dan A (an S) has spoken some very wise words. I choose to learn, to better myself and my business. I choose the level of business I do, and how I do it...but I love to hear of how others make it work for them.
I love the diverse 'sign world' and enjoy learning from those that have many years behind them, make tons of money, and can take time off to do other things, but I also learn from those just starting out. I watch their passions and eagerness and am delighted that the sign/business'gurus' (with or without their egos) care enough to share their hard-learned, wisdom with those willing to listen. No question is a dumb question.
My wish is that those who could truly answer my posts, would do so and don't let the few bad apples that may be 'overripe'....taint the rest of the bin.
Us little guys need the experience and knowledge and better ways to do things. I don't care if you have ego or not, I don't care if you made $2.00 or $2 million this year...I just want to learn as much as I can, and the more quality responses given to any post, the more learning there is.
Polite, truthful 'Constructive Critism' is very appreciated and just because one person's ideas or tastes are different, does not mean that both are right or wrong, it just offers more options, more learning. Take all the info and make your own choices. I love the positive stories and input from everybody. We all have waves of crisis in our lives, we all wish the best of celebrations and health to everyone here (but I don't intend to respond to every single one)....but we also have busy lives and food to put on the table.
Let's play nice and look for the good. I know many of us never wish to offend, (joke around a bit maybe) but as the 'tone' of text cannot be read into it, it can be read many ways.
I hope that those who have posted less because of hurt feelings, would return and bring the knowlege exchange back up as I am just one who appreciates your time and efforts. For those who choose to be less than kind...I simply close your post.
Keep this 'Knowledge Network' alive and thankyou to all for sharing. YOU ROCK MY WORLD.
Sonny, your posts have always inspired me....please keep them coming. Have a happy day.
Posted by Joseph Diaz (Member # 5913) on :
I don’t think there is ever anyway that we can 100% avoid hurting someone’s feelings especially on a bb. But if people could practice a few simple restraints this place would be a much more positive site to exchange ideas and yes even post OT subjects not related to signs and designs or celebrate someone’s birthday, or pray for someone’s hurt loved ones. Because the fact is those generally aren’t the only root of most of the arguments here. Just as many arguments are started in ON topic posts. The reasons, that I’ve seen, some arguments start on Letterville are:
- Someone asks for a critique, but doesn’t like the advice given. If your feelings get hurt easily don’t do that. It doesn’t matter how great the design is in your eyes, people all share different opinions and another artist might have used a different approach. I for one enjoy getting different points of view on my designs whether I agree with them or not… They are all relevant points in my mind.
On the flip side:
- Someone asks for a critique and another artist gives non-constructive criticism. By non-constructive criticism I mean that person only points out the bad and never points out the good in the design or layout. Plus the artist giving the criticism doesn’t explain how they would improve the design. This is not constructive and in some cases leads to hurt feelings. I for one don’t let things like that really get to me.
- Someone thinks they are above being criticized. This type of event happens when some one posts only to show off and is knocked off guard when someone even suggests that the artwork isn’t perfect. The moment a designer thinks that they have nothing else to learn from anyone is the moment that person stops growing as an artist. Leave your ego at the door and let people express their opinions.
On the flip side:
- Someone being criticized when they didn’t ask for criticism. An example is someone who is extremely proud of their work. The job is finished and yes they want to show off (there’s nothing wrong with that) At this point what is there to gain by ripping this persons design apart and embarrassing them in front of their peers? It’s not like you are fooling anyone into thinking that you know it all. So I would suggest keep your opinions to yourself, and if you can’t, practice some restraint and pick out only a few flaws then explain to that artist how you would fix those flaws and then follow it up with pointing out the parts that you did like. My dad calls that a compliment sandwich. Not all people need to be treated this way, but if you know that a person is overly sensitive try out the compliment sandwich… It’s goes great with a side of fries by-the-way.
- Someone who assumes that their way of doing things is the only way. This type of person usually frustrates me. They assume that the only path to happiness is the path that they have taken. There are so many different ways to approach a job and in the bigger picture there are many ways for a person to be happy. I have a brother who lives in the big city in a million dollar home, drives a luxury SUV, works in a big corner office and is as happy as can be. Then my other brother works in this industry he rents a nice house, It’ not big or anything, he has a great girlfriend and a dog, and comes to work with his family everyday where he does what he love… and he too is happy. So why do we argue about these things? If a person is happy taking their own path what’s the point in trying to convince them that they aren’t, and that they would be happy doing things your way? It’s all about point of views.
On the flip side:
- Someone tells their success stories. Their only reason for doing so is to possibly help people that are struggling in this business. Some one else gets jealous or is struggling with their business and rather then taking the advice; they take out their frustrations on the person who is successful. This type of person is usually only frustrated and because they are already in a negative mood thinks the person giving out advice is bragging.
Can you guys think of any more? Really it’s all about understanding and practicing restraint. I mean this stuff is common sense. Treat people the way you would want to be treated. And if you can’t do that at least treat people how you would if you were speaking to them face to face. This isn’t a perfect world we live in and not every one believes that it is there job to be nice to every one. But the people that act the way I’ve described are the people that I look up to and are what I believe to be the good people that we don’t want to drive off.
[ September 04, 2007, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: Joseph Diaz ]
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Sometimes I wonder what it would be like to be one of the ran-off ex posters that everyone wished would return... (& you could lurk, like witnessing your own funeral )
...but other times I feel like I am one of bad-penny posters that people wish they could run off, but I keep coming back.
I am usually a happy guy, & all my life I have been easily able to make friends, but that skill was honed under the influence, & off the clock.
Being "off the clock" for about 20 semi-unemployed years led to lots of friends... (and under lots of influences ) ...but it was the sign trade that took this party animal by the ear & sat me down at a career I could finally take seriously & try to make something of myself with.
In the process I evolved into a business man with a lot of ambition, but little to no outside life besides my family. When I found Letterville, I recognized a business asset for those rare occassions where I absolutely needed another signmakers advice... but to a far greater degree, I needed some pals to talk shop with, on break, or after hours.
...well, I've racked up many many after hours on here ...and more then a few of those ten paragraph posts Billy mentioned... but I have no doubt I've made some friends on here.
Like I said, I'm usually a happy guy, but like anyone, I experience the full range of emotions we humans are capable of experiencing. Because I have posted a lot, there have been posts that I regret.
I'd rather show my happy guy side, but I'm usually not one to go hide whenever I don't think I look my best, so I just trust that most people know I'm not the sort to pick fights or try to hurt other people. I honestly don't think that's who I am... but perhaps, on a bad day, that's how I am.
I guess bad news is the kind that gets remembered, so I think I've become bad news for some... but I hope most people notice that I have far more good things to say, even though I don't always zip my lip as fast as others.
Posted by William DeBekker (Member # 3848) on :
Thick Skin.. No way I use Oil of Olay.
As for posting, if people would just use common sense and not take everything to heart it would be a perfect world. Boring but perfect.
I know when I post most people just ignore me or think I am an Idiot as I am not an eloquent writer like Dan S or Doug A. But I can personally say if it wasn't for this board I would probably not be where we are today, for better or worse I have learned more here then I did in 4 years at ASU... Except the partying thing. Unless the Looney meet counts with Cam.
People need to lighten up take a step back and look at what your doing.. Your Making Signs/Art/Stickers/Graphics/Websites/Car Wraps (Most people in the world would kill to do what we do and get paid for it)(Well sorta sometimes)(This ain't work. This is PLAY TIME) and your getting upset cause someone says your an Idiot or that they Like Goerge W. Who Cares Our lives are grand and live it like you want. Live it to the fullest as we only get one chance to do it right.
Nough said as I am loosing track of what I rambling on about.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
well... with 8000 + posts here, i guess i can saya couple things.... 1. i have a lot more freinds here then most humans ever get in a lifetime. 2. as for thick skin, i dont have one cause iam really a sensitive sorta guy, and iam not afraid to show it from time to time. 3.YOU NEED A GREAT SENCE OF HUMOR...most dont have one.....these are the one who get their panties in wad and get all upset...IT JUST A BB, FER CHRIST SAKES.....IT AINT YOUR LIFE!!!!!! 4.content here is "choice of the moderator" .... so if HE DONT LIKE IT....TOUGH SCHIT...ITS GONE same goes for POSTER....... 5.if you dont like it...START YOUR OWN BB. i know ive posted some things SOME PEOPLE didnt see the humor in it. and some here would like to see me gone.....but then who would those ...look down on?)))))))))))) but i hold no ill will to any, just dont post to theirs and hope they give me the same respect.
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Thanks, OP. The last word was the best one...respect.
Start there and the rest is easy. Rapid
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
quote:Originally posted by old paint: ..IT JUST A BB, .....IT AINT YOUR LIFE!!!!!!
Good point, Joe. Kinda like getting upset at how a soap opera turns out. I don't watch em, but I can figure it out.
I am amazed at how seriously the off-topic stuff gets here. One thing has brought us together, one common thread....Signs & Design work. Anything we share here of a personal nature is purely optional. We can decide to chime in on a topic with potential to get personal, or avoid it all together. It's our choice. We can wish people happy birthday, or not. We can express sorrow for a dead loved one, or not. We can pray for someones sick relative, or not. It's all about choice here
So far, this thread has been very interesting. But, it has potential.......well, you know.
Oh my, did I quote OP????
Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
I think sometimes people just get sick of the drama. It is just a forum. It's not the same as if people were face to face, but the manners should be as such. Most of us are artists, and when you have that sort of personality, sensitivity and a thin skin go hand in hand. The things we create are like our children, and nobody wants someone to call their baby ugly...even if sometimes it is. I have been at meets with people who don't even own a computer, and sometimes I wish I'd never gotten one. The thing is, the mantle of Letterheads even covers people who would have been shown the door at a live meet long ago. It infers quality, craftsmanship, integrity. Some people can and do posess these assets. Others can act as if they do but are ultimately found out. Still more others do have these skills, but the personality of a prepubescent teenager. There are some people whose work I've admired for years but upon meeting them I'm not impressed with their attitude. In the end, we are all just people, not Sign Gods. We meet other signies through forums like this, and sometimes we develop real friendships with them. Therefore we do care if they have a sick relative or a birthday. If people don't want to read topics like these, don't click on them. I know I'm a huge poster on here, and I have tried lately not to talk so much. I know sometimes my critiques seem harsh, but I mean well. If there is someone who rubs you the wrong way, don't read their comments. Even if you're tempted. The more you stir sh!t, the more it stinks. If you feel the need to leave for awhile or forever, go ahead. I'm sure the porch light will be left on if you want to return. Love....Jill
Posted by Nancie W. Phillips (Member # 3484) on :
I wanna be a member of the Dan(s) Club! This world is too full of nay-sayers. I love to see folks defy the odds and succeed. It's rather encouraging. So, keep the posts coming that showcase positive attitude...
And I also agree that it took a lot of courage for Sonny to admit publicly that he was wrong...and I agree that all of us should be so humble.
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Holy Cripes, I am going for Chinese... Something with a kungpow kick!
C'mon Bicycle... I'll pick you up in the Hapless Hauler.
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
I think si and OP have made some really good points.
Another problem is, while we all recognize we have different skill levels, we seem to forget we all have different personalities too. Nobody gets blasted because they have to use a pattern instead of a direct chicken scratch layout but if somebody isn't upbeat all the time and has difficulty in the sales area....look out...the big guns come out:( Why is it OK to get all over somebody when they say "I can't sell that here" ( either due to thier market or lack of sales skills yet nobody says anything about not being able to wield a brush....lay gold...use an airbrush or whatever???????????
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
OK, I'm waiting....Your turn to buy?
Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
I'll be insulted if Bruce and Rick don't buy my lunch!
Posted by Sonny Franks (Member # 588) on :
Thanks for the insightful comments. I was especially hammered by what Dan Antonelli had to say. It's sad that a fellow Letterhead can hit his stride in this business and try to share what worked for him, only to feel lambasted. After a bad day, maybe some of us don't care what a great day Sawatsky had, or how well Antonelli's design biz is going, or whether Raymond's new ShopBot had a workout today.
But these guys have the same problems that ALL of us have, and I'm glad they've stayed around to share their philosophies and expertise. There are so many people here who are trying to help us succeed and making them feel unwelcome only hurts our own progress. The smartest advice I ever got was to find someone who has reached the level you want to achieve and do what they did. Luckily, I have many friends in Letterville who fit that description . After 36 years, I'm still trying to figure out how to make a decent buck in this biz. If I can take all the relevant material coming from this website and make some of it work for me, then I've hit the jackpot. So, selfishly, I want all the help I can get - especially at this price!
All of us regulars know when the train wrecks are about to happen on this site, so maybe if we head it off at the pass, we can keep the knowledge flowing here.
I'Z ALL GOOD, Y'ALL.........
Edited to add: Joe, when I coached softball, we called it an "Oreo"
[ September 05, 2007, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: Sonny Franks ]
Posted by Del Badry (Member # 114) on :
Ive been around here forever... but havent been posting for years.... but have been reading, the ebb and flow of the site at times is amazing....only regret in not having ability to post was missing out on ricky's trip to canada.. i digress.. lol... taking things personally is something iv been able to work out of myself....look forward to being around again...
Posted by Jon Butterworth (Member # 227) on :
Welcome back Del ... sorry I missed you in Canada!
Posted by Del Badry (Member # 114) on :
timing wasnt rite....loved your posts... we both hate that car... try and tint it.. plus now i have to get over there....
[ September 05, 2007, 11:33 PM: Message edited by: Del Badry ]
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
The ironic thing is that many of the "debates" that everyone claims to hate so much - get the most views and responses.
Many of these responses come from people who claim superiority over such nonsense, and then end up becoming some of the key players by threads end.
I find this aspect of human nature both interesting and amusing. People seem to love a train wreck. Jerry Springer made millions from the psychological draw of the bizarre.
People, being flawed, are going to occasionally misinterpret, become offended, and become passionate regarding certain topics and opinions expressed both in on-topic subjects and critiques and off-topic observations of life.
I think one problem lies in people's inability to forgive those that have offended them. Forgiveness is powerful medicine. It flushes the conscience of hatred, bitterness, envy, and all sorts of bad emotional baggage.
Leaving all whizzed off doesn't alleviate anything - it just means you are somewhere else with a little black cloud taking up space in your mind.
Forgiveness and second (and third) chances blow that smoke right out your ears and makes you feel good again.
Take Doug Allan and myself. We've had a few humdinger debates on occasion. Yet I respect him immensely for his intelligence and his ability to debate in a thought provoking way. Although we have different views on many subjects - and have had different life experiences....he's one of the people here I'd most like to meet sometime.
But again, the key here is the forgiveness factor. After some of our debates, we have continued our discussions behind the scenes via emails...and found common ground, or at least an understanding where we can see one another's point of view. Apologies for certain phrases are made and accepted and our mutual respect remains intact.
We all have bad days, and we all say stupid things on occasion out of frustration.
I think the real callousness comes from the people that won't talk through a controversial discussion logically ....but feel it necessary to jump in with a one-sided insult and then vanish.
P.S. I gotta say...I really like Joe Diaz' post. And I like Deri's insight on Artistic temperament...there's some interesting psychology at play behind that.
Posted by Ian Stewart-Koster (Member # 3500) on :
Dan, Dan and others- please post more often- we gain so much from them! I for one, do not see comments & posts from them in any egotistical or self-promotion category, but a humbleness to help others aim to where they are, and appreciate them for their insight.
Posted by Michael R. Bendel (Member # 5847) on :
Si said, "Hate to say this ... but ... grow a thicker skin ..."
You make me laugh Si: I bet you wish you could boot me now you hipocrite.
Now that's a good example. That was a JOKE. Commonly known as "tongue in cheek".
dk: I can't imagine why someone would chose to leave here.
The posts I see are sign related & sign responded. The political posts are interesting too.
I have seen very little disrespect here. I HAVE seen numerous misunderstandings.
If you are looking to be worshipped here, not gonna happen...
If you feel you've been wronged... for God's sake, join John & whomever else Sonny is referring to.
You may not get ahold of them though... I hear they took their football & went home!
Posted by Fred Weiss (Member # 3662) on :
I have to chime in as in 100% agreement with Dan Antonelli's thoughts. As the wearer of several hats: sign maker, seller of products for sign makers, and operator of a different BB, I rarely post here because I don't want to be suspected of trolling.
At my board we see exactly the same kinds of losses and for many of the same reasons. I tend to think, however, that the main reason for loss of participation is the addictiveness of an active BB. In other words, it's easy to spend too much time at a BB and then, when you notice you're neglecting your family or your business, swing in exactly the opposite direction and stop participating altogether.
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
quote:Originally posted by Fred Weiss: ...... I tend to think, however, that the main reason for loss of participation is the addictiveness of an active BB. In other words, it's easy to spend too much time at a BB and then, when you notice you're neglecting your family or your business, swing in exactly the opposite direction and stop participating altogether.
I tend to agree. Good post.
Posted by Sonny Franks (Member # 588) on :
Fred, that's an interesting point. Many of the people I was referring to jumped in here with both feet and posted to everything. Like a brand new Amway convert, a little too gung-ho. That's why I had to swear off the chat room - I wasn't getting any work done on my night shift. Maybe we should impose a posting limit on new members - or a required 12-Step BB program........
Posted by Frank Smith (Member # 146) on :
It's hard to strike a balance. This summer I've read some fascinating discussions here and had no time to participate. Letterville lost out to 3 vacations, some county fairs, family get-togethers, city-wide art gallery open-house evenings, peace & quiet in my kayak, time for my own artwork, reading, family hikes, and of course making tons of signs to pay for the new van and a new family car that runs on compressed natural gas.
No matter how good life is, I'll always have one complaint: life is too short.
Posted by Gilead Stellar (Member # 158) on :
Well it's sad to hear that some of the good "Old Timers" are gone,I hope they come back.
In the meantime: I'm Back! extremely small consolation though that may be.
I've been hanging out on conceptart.org. If you think discussions can go south around here imagine a website much like this one, but all of us being video game artists, comic book artists, illustrators or wannabees ages 12 to 25. That's conceptart. I've learned to avoid the "lounge" area altogether. Still it's an amazing website to check out if you have the time. Some of the talent is nothing short of mindblowing.
Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :
Just seems to me that good people shouldn't run off.
~nettie
Posted by Sonny Franks (Member # 588) on :
It was correctly pointed out to me that "run off" might be the wrong phrase in light of some incidents. In many cases, people left because they created their own storms of controversy. In others, illness, business, family or life just precluded time spent on this forum.
It was also correctly pointed out that things are not always what they seem........
Posted by Chris Elliott (Member # 1262) on :
good point Nettie!!! and of course, if they do run off for awhile, it's never too late to c'mon back for a fresh try.
edited to add: (since Sonny types faster than I think) Sonny, that's what I thought you meant all along.
[ September 11, 2007, 12:38 PM: Message edited by: Chris Elliott ]
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
I've had my share of mixed feelings about this board, and my participation level is directly a result of what those feelings are at any given moment.
Both Dans have a point about being resented for their success - its an unfortunate aspect of society that in any group, there's an element that is envious and resentful and looks for ways to drag people down. There's no more certain way to run off the very people who have the most to share.
Another issue I have is the nature of this virtual medium itself. The tagline of the site is "the letterhead meet that never ends." I wonder - is that a good thing? At a live meet we plan and schedule and make sacrifices to be able to attend; at the meet we re-acquaint with friends, swap stories, paint, share techniques, get fired up again... and then its OVER, and we go back to our lives, hopefully carrying some inspiration with us, looking forward to going again. So, what if it didn't end, we didn't have to go home... it would become part and parcel with our lives. We'd see a lot more of each other, and for some of us, discover things that we don't agree on. Instead of being a relatively brief, overwhelmingly positive encounter with other sign folks, it becomes more like a family - and NOBODY gets along with ALL of their relatives, not to mention some of the houseguests that show up uninvited.
What I'm trying to say is it could be good for us, individually, to leave from time to time. I know it is good for me to do that; to give myself some space and regain a perspective, so that when I do choose to read or contribute, it is in a way that's fresh and positive.
Posted by Ricky Jackson (Member # 5082) on :
I agree with Si that you have to have thick skin. If you post on here, you need to be aware of the *potential* for things getting nasty, no matter how good your intentions. Things typed are without inflection or expression and can be taken ambiguously. We all need to temper our posts and replys with humility, wisdom, and restraint. I say that from experience too. I don't know many people who have taken more of a beating than I took over my attempted move to Canada (aka: Canadian gun smuggling trip). I even got another hate mail about three months ago. I read it a few times, thought about how to reply, wrote two different letters, then deleted them and decided not to respond. Like Dusty said "If you're gonna be stupid, you gotta be tough". Was I stupid for taking a handgun into Canada without knowing the laws? You bet your bippy! Was I actually smuggling guns? Not on your life and it was only one gun. It was an extremely hurtful event not to get to move to Alaska and volunteering that I had a handgun cost me about $5,000. I still love Canada and my *dear* Canadian friends and I sincerely mean that.
There are always small minded people who justify their own failures by saying "You can't get those kinda prices in my town" or "You can't sell that kinda work in my town". Going out once or twice and trying to sell that gold leaf job or quoting $90 sq. ft. for a sandblasted job and getting shot down is not failure; the only failure is giving up. Yeah I'm mildly envious (with a smile) of Dan S. getting to make these incredible projects all the time but he had the drive and paid the price to build that kind of business. People didn't just bust his door down with that sort of work; he had to develop it. If someone wants you to do a job you don't like doing - just say no; if you do it you'll probably get more of it. Sorry for the rabbit chasing.
Dan A., I hate to hear that you hold back because of your reasons but I totally understand. That still doesn't lessen the fact that you are greatly admired on here (yep, I bought your books) for not only your knowledge, creativity, talents and skills but your business savvy too. If anybody gives you any grief on here we'll have OP "take care of em". BTW, Jake thinks you're really cute. Posted by Frank Magoo (Member # 3950) on :
So Ricky, what exactly would it take then to "run" you off??? (damn smuggler) Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
The RCMP, but they don't have jurisdiction in Georgia.
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
I thought we had an extradition treaty with Canada?
[ September 13, 2007, 01:26 AM: Message edited by: Ray Rheaume ]
Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
We do, but they don't want him.
Posted by Ricky Jackson (Member # 5082) on :
They know I still have more guns! Eh?
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
I hope none of us missed the pearls of wisdom dispensed by our very own Cam Bortz.
That was a great prospective, I am sure it was very personal & heartfelt.
I feel the same way sometimes, and disappear for a day or two. It's amazing how much work you can get done.
Posted by Dusty Campbell (Member # 4601) on :
It's easy to get pulled in a different direction. I haven't read or posted anything here for a month or so. Mostly I've been pondering how to move from a one man shop into one with employees with the least amount of growing pains.
I don't know if I missed something hitting the fan, but I've noticed in the couple years I've been here that summer seems to bring higher levels of tension.
When I was reading every post, I'd just tune out the negative posts. Lalalala I can't hear you.
I'm not one of the ones refusing to come back, I just have alot going on at the moment.
I'm still glad to know y'all and look forward to meeting more.
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Mentally ... who cares?. You can watch an ape go ape in a cage but he can't touch you.![[Rolling On The Floor]](graemlins/rolf.gif)
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.... I'm sure they lurk in and out. It's really up to their choice. All we can offer is the majority of people here care.
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