This subject will probably never go away, but here's my exchange with a lady who asked for quotes on banners for a local event:
HER RESPONSE AFTER I SENT A QUOTE: Thanks Sonny - I am still checking into this and trying to see if we can order banners or not. We are currently looking for a sponsor to offset this cost - and don't know if we will find one. I appreciate your help.
MY RESPONSE: Beverly, I would like to help out by being a sponsor, but my experience has been that EVERY time I do that, my name gets passed around as the go-to guy for free signs. If people would call me when they need signs for their business and will pay full price, I wouldn't mind. But invariably, they go elsewhere until they need it free or cheap. After 35 years of donating my services to Scout groups, churches, LBA, sports teams, etc., I finally realized that people seem to have no qualms about exhausting my good intentions. I hope you understand and I apologize for the rant.
HER RESPONSE: I completely understand your position - please don't think I was asking for you to do them for free - I was not. I am trying to find a corporate sponsor that will be willing to pay a sign maker. I have received several quotes, and do have a significantly low bid, which I may have to go with due to other expenses rising on this event. I hope you will come out and join us for Music on Main this year, and I will keep you in mind for future bidding.
MY RESPONSE Thanks for your understanding, and I certainly realize that budget constraints require that you go with the lowest bidder. I provided signs for the Lilburn Christmas Parade for several years (free) and then, when I told them I had to start charging for them, they found someone cheaper. When they called me again the following year, they said the "cheap guy" was now out of business. I've been fighting this vicious cycle of lowballers for many years.
For some reason, people get in the sign business thinking they'll get customers by offering ridiculously low prices and then find that they can't survive, but since they've already established their value, they can't increase prices to a realistic level. To be honest, I did the same thing many years ago and learned the hard way that it doesn't work, so I decided to concentrate my efforts on providing quality work and good service. Once again, I apologize for the rant, but I just want you to know where I'm coming from and I hope you'll give me a call when the newest "cheap guy" goes out of business. Thanks.
[ August 12, 2007, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: Sonny Franks ]
Posted by bruce ward (Member # 1289) on :
at some point in a signmakers life we think, "sponsoring is agood thing, it gets our name out there and will increases sale"
NO IT DOESNT
I donated $1200.00 worth of signs to a new humane shelter here, less than 1 year later they had all trucks redone and a brand new sign out front, I was not even offered the chance to bid.
donated $400.00 to local dragstrip to get name on start line....sign has been up for 4 years. I have gotten nothing. im not going to mention any more stories we all have them.
Im way over done sponsoring and donating. Its not worth it. it waste my time and its gets you nothing in return. It would be best to let these people move right on along
Posted by Brad Farha (Member # 931) on :
I have a policy to never donate anything unless it is understood that in no way can the recipient let anyone know I was the donor.
Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
Exactly.... I've said it here before, but it's what I always tell the race-car drivers when they ask if I'll knock off X amount, if they let me put my name on the car...
"I'd sooner knock off X amount if you'll let me leave my name OFF the car.... what do you think I want, a bunch more race-car drivers wanting cheap lettering?"
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
I learned long ago to NOT donate work of any kind. When approached about donating a banner or a sign, I would offer to do the work for my regular price and then make a donation of $25 to their cause.
As far as the racers go, at one time my work was 75% race cars, so I was always approached for sponsorships. My response was " ( insert the name of famous racer here ) pays for his work, he's known nationally and he wins, why should I sponsor you?"
Like Sonny said, doing work for free only leads to requests for more free work...I'd rather go fishing, at least I can eat Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Here's the way I look at this.
There's nothing wrong with donating.... as long as you only donate to causes that you truly believe in. Donating to a cause just to be a part of something bigger isn't acting in alignment with your heart and thus you will NEVER benefit from it. You will only feel like you've been used and abused, and unlikely to do it again because it didn't help your bottom line, which goes against the purpose of donations anyway.
So, once you pick the causes you really have a connection with and decide not to donate to anything else, you'll probably make enough from everyone else paying full price that you can make full donations to the others.
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
Mike good points. ITs all about expecations.
Yeas ago I was the chairman for the martial art events at the AAU JR Olympics in the superdome. I can tell you first hand that some of those event managers make a very hefty sum of cash. The more they save the more they are worth to the event. And the more they can get to manage. I know of one event manager who was paid $50 grand and didn't so a thing untiul the day he showed up. Every thing else was doen by donators and volunteers.
Many of those events are led by committees. They meet with the intention of pulling off these events with lots of community support. They get bids then someone suggest they call around and look for the first one to be an innocent donator. That is they suggest that the giver wil get LOTS of exposure adn this translates into LOTS of work. PHOEY!! IT dotn work like that. There is absolutely no connection between the event and the donator other than a goodie given. It's nothing personal. Its just a fact of doing events.
Years ago I was a chamber member. I was given the ipmression that the chamber was also a type of co-op too. That is chamber members support other members and shop the home town too.
Well of course I donated a load of stuff to a chamber event. When it came to doing a paid part of the job they called another non-member in another town.
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
I've donated work for D.A.R.E. programs with the local police departments over the years. Some have hired me since to do their department cruisers.
Two months ago, my town PD chief asked for a quote on the new cruiser. Reflective gold and black, same layout as they have had for years. We have one of the lowest crime rates in the US and they do an outstanding job. Many of our officers have become supportive friends since we moved here and I felt it would be right to come down a bit to support the town, so I priced it at $250 installed.
A couple of weeks later, the chief called to let me know that I was underbid and, by edict of the town bylaws, he had to go with lowest price. When I asked him the number, he said it was $100.
Don't know if the same company has been doing the last few cruisers, but I certainly hope they don't use the same shrinking black vinyl that is on 3 of our town's cars to date.
The company awarded the bid is predominately a printer and delves into signage on occasion. It remains to be seen whether or not the work will hold up, but I take solace in knowing that if it does go wrong, the guys downtown have already stated where it'll go after...
...here.
I'd much rather have a rep for better quality than the lowest price. In the long run, it pays better.
That holds true with race cars, too. The guys who spend the time and money building better cars come here and expect a bill. They also don't barter down the price, but often ask for more expensive things to impress their sponsors or win car shows. Over the years, the advantages have been fewer "beaters", repeat customers and some freedom to design what I feel will work best instead of copying business card designs onto hoods....all at a profit. The guys looking for sponsorship almost never call anymore, and the few that do get a resounding "no".
There are a dozen "newbies" out there locally doing cars for free every year, many of them former drivers who have gotten plotters, but most are just here for a year or two. When they go belly up, there's always another one right behind making the same mistake.
Rapid
Posted by Nancie W. Phillips (Member # 3484) on :
The way I see it: The "Walmart mentality" has infected everyone's business.
Posted by Monte Jumper (Member # 1106) on :
All too familiar...I finally got out of that loop by telling everyone we have a charity we donate too ...then make sure we do...they all say they understand then they either deal with us or someone else ...and I really don't care which it is.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Good thread! Sonny - I think you did a great job in explaining why it's NOT to anyone's benefit to source the cheapest guy on the block (or in an alley).
You've smartly educated this woman - who sounds like an understanding person, really - and hopefully that will figure into some future business when they aren't dealing with low budget events and would prefer to deal with you - the professional.
How come these charity events always seem to be running out on money when it's time to deal with the sign guy?
Maybe the sign guy should be first on the list to call instead of the caterer.
I doubt they would take bids on the food, beer, and bands. That does kinda show you where the sign maker is on the food chain - unfortunately.
Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
The only charity that I really contribute to anymore is a local Meals on Wheels golf outing. I always made the tee signs just for materials. This year they added a woman to their committee who really threw a monkey wrench into the works. I kept getting my info on hand-written notes that conflicted with each other etc. and lots of time-consuming phone calls over what used to be a simple one-day job.
This year I charged them, not full price, but signifigantly more. And they were happy to pay me. But you really do need to limit your charities, and not spread the word so to speak, or you will have everyone knocking on your door for freebies and no "buying" customers.
I agree that signs are usually the last item on the list. People don't seem to realize the value of a good sign. Love.....Jill
Posted by Debb Bates (Member # 4940) on :
Hello Sonny! I to have had my share of doing freebies and do you know how many people have taken the time afterwards to write me a thank-you letter in the past 5 years ? Zippo!Notta !! I used to be thrilled to receive a thank-you note but now adays people don't seem to do that anymore.When I first started my business in 1987, I to would have people ask for my help and I would go out of my way no matter how many jobs I had to get out the door that week, just to help them.Alot of people out there have really forgotten how to be appreciative of our services.Getting off subject Sonny , go look at the barber shop sign on Maritime Round-Up 2.Looks great eh!!
Posted by Ricky Jackson (Member # 5082) on :
Don't forget this one LAW of the universe: "No good turn goes unpunished".
Mike and Curtis made some outstanding points. If you're going to donate something, do it without expecting something in return. We take it personally so many times when we don't get a job that we should have gotten because ___________. It's just business. Every year I go thru the same thing with the lowballers and within about 3-4 months half a dozen of them have gone out of business. The bad news is that they sold their equipment to some other moron that thinks with the Wal-Mart mentality too, so next year I have to put him out of business too, all the while losing money across the board. We're in such a technologically transitional business and I don't see that changing; it's a fact that we must embrace and make GOOD business decisions.
The good news? *Creativity* is our stock-in-trade. If anybody should know how to assess problems and come up with a local solution, it should be us. Lowballers are just one of those small, petty, sweaty things that you shouldn't worry about.
Posted by Mark Matyjakowski (Member # 294) on :
Dang Ray, you got lucky the other guy jumped in at 100 so you don't have to be the lowballer.
Everybody who prices less than me (for whatever reason) is a lowballer ... anyone higher is a scam artist. (ripped from George Carlin's slow drivers are idiots and fast drivers are maniacs bit)
Everything I touch with a brush is given to charity (or swapped) ... but when and where I want.
Posted by Paul Bierce (Member # 5412) on :
A freelance client of mine recently had a large toy company contact him asking him to do some design work. The catch was they wanted him to work on spec, promising, "If we like one of your designs, we'll pay you for it, and you'll get to become one of our vendors".
I told him he was nuts if he agreed to work for free. He heard what I was saying, but was all eager beaver to work for an "industry biggie" so he was actually considering it. I kept telling him not to do it, and when his wife lent her voice to my protests, he decided it wasn't such a good idea.
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
I agree with Paul in the matter of "Here you go!" Please show us all the designs we can Ripe Off! or Weep in front of you, so you will just hand it over.
Everyday is a PayDay!
Posted by Michael R. Bendel (Member # 5847) on :
I'll say it again... It's better to be slow & poor, than busy & poor! Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
Ditto's Jon . . .
There are particular groups I do work for at cost, and several organizations I WISH I COULD donate more too . . . (an' I WILL someday when I'm mo' able . . .)
But then, there are those who are always comin' around for a hand-out, and how 'bout when they are trying to bluff ya and they say something like . . .
"Well, 'such-&-such' shop is willing to donate this item but we rather you did it . . ."
I so love that 'deer-in'the-head-lights' expression they get when I reply:
"Are they really!? Gosh how generous of THEM. I would just go with them because I really can't donate at this time . . . but do call again when the promo puts the committee is IN funds."
*wave bye-bye*
By the way, I, with utmost sincerity and concern for their need, often direct these folks needing banners to the local leading-cola company who's logo uses only HALF of the available lettering space (howbeit with zero regard for copy amount, letterstyle, size, and spacing, oh-yeh, any custom logos/colours impossible) but they WILL do banners for absolute FREE.
Man . . . beggars cain't be choozers. C'mon. They're FREE.
Speaking of those wantin' something for nothing, like the frequent crack-heads/winos/bums who oft ask for 'donations' (when they are not actually TAKING them, such as my aluminum ladder, etc) When they ask for money I instantly reply, "Gee, I was gonna ask YOU the same thing . . . you're broke TOO huh??" Posted by Patrick Whatley (Member # 2008) on :
best advice I was ever given...
DON'T GIVE AWAY YOUR TALENT.
You wanna help Boy Scouts then show up and help little old ladies across the street, you wanna help the Red Cross volunteer a couple of hours at a blood drive. Do anything but make what you do into a "free".
Posted by Deb Fowler (Member # 1039) on :
Well, I do want to thank all of you for donating advice to us, as many of us appreciate it here! (at least here you're appreciated by me:)).
Posted by James Kelly (Member # 189) on :
Lowballers... now that's a great name. We don't use that phrase over on this side of the Atlantic but we should as they are everywhere. If I could convey Sonny's post in a simple sign for our reception it would be great.
Like everyone, we get customers wanting the cheapest price possible. When someone comes into our shop stating that they wants the cheapest sign possible I often tell them not to get a sign at all, that way it would be the cheapest. When they reply that it wouldn't get them any business I say "Exactly!". It makes them think on the value of a good sign.
Others come in saying that if you can do it for the same price as Lowball Signs (I love that word) down the road they would rather give me the job. When I ask them why, they always reply that we do a better job. A better job takes more time and better materials so we need to charge more.
We don't try to compete on price with the lowballers as price is ALL they have to compete with.
Posted by Pete Payne (Member # 344) on :
we donate, possibly too much too often, but when we do signs for charities i explain up front that if they can provide a tax receipt i will give them a cheque and invoice for the same amount as the signs real value when i deliver, I get a writeoff, they get a free sign, but everyone in the group from the treasurer on down sees the valueof the product and usually will then look after it and maybe use it again instead of throwing it away. As for sohroom signs, Doug Downey had the best one i've seen "QUALITY, SERVICE PRICE...YOU CAN PICK ANY TWO"
Posted by Nevman (Member # 332) on :
I've been doing that too Pete.
"I'll send you a bill for the signs...you pay me and I will write you a donation check in the same amount."
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