We recently did these signs for a new coffee shop. The guy didn't ever get the permit and now that it's time to open he has a problem.
The idiots that run the city won't let anyone have red in their signs. I have no idea why, but they won't. They said these signs have too much red.......they aren't red!!!
I worked my but off on these signs with the gradient fade in the paint (maroon to orange). The pictures don't do it justice. Much nicer in person. I did not design the logo, just duplicated it.
We have been trying to get a nice sign in downtown for years so we could build more business in that area. Most of the signs are vinyl on MDO.
Now, they said he has to have it painted two solid colors. So much for my good portfolio piece!!!
Can anyone think of anyway to convince these historic idiots of allowing it. I'll charge him accordingly to repaint it but I don't want to. It's nice the way it is.
I just can't see how a vinyl MDO sign that is subpar can be any better than this sign that they say is red. UUUUGGGGHHHHHH...
OK, enough rant. I just can't win in this whacked out area.
[ July 05, 2007, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: Amy Brown ]
Posted by Brad Farha (Member # 931) on :
I don't think you can change their minds. They apparently have something against red, and maroon to them is just a dark red. But that's why they insist on preapproval for colors in a historic district.
Posted by John Arnott (Member # 215) on :
Sounds more like the Soviet Union than America. I'll bet that if McDonald's wanted to put a little snack bar type restaurant downtown there, they would get their red on the sign for sure. I think you should let all of us know this guys e-mail and overload his mail with questions why.
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
Now, that's just sad. I guess you could get some "expert" to explain to them that this color isn't red.
Since red is one of the primary colors, it is a small part of just about any other color, other than black and white (which really aren't colors). Tell that to the town folks and see what they say.
It just proves that you don't have to have brains to run a city.
By the way...it's a beautiful sign. You still have this photo for your portfolio.
Is there something in the ordinance that says that all signs have to be two colors and no more? Most national chain stores would not make it under that criteria.
If I remember correctly the sign ordinance in Jackson Hole says that no signs can have a white background. Whoever thought up these things probably thought it was a good idea at the time.
One of the problems is that most sign ordinances are produced by people who have no idea about anything visual. They don't want junk, but cannot come up with a definition of junk or what isn't junk.
I feel your pain, Amy. We all face the same type folks wherever we live.
Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :
That sign is gorgeous just as it is.
Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :
That sign is incredible. Boy Amy, you have to do something to change their minds. No red? What could possibly be the reasoning behind that law? These people need some direction.
I'd call the United States Sign Council to see if color might fall under content, which is protected by the constitution. The United States Sign Council might help you even if you aren't a member. If that law is unconstitutional, and you can prove it to them, I'd put up the sign and see if they would bother to fight it knowing they would lose a law suit.
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
The sign is one fabulous piece AS IT IS. I looked and looked but diddn't see any red save for my reaction to this 'authority type figure' in charge.
Is it the copper or the purple they object to??? If its just the purple you may be able to substitute a different color (at least temporarily.)
I'd advise your client to put the sign away until he gets his occupancy permit and then once the inspector is out of sight put it back up in a hurry. If the city challenges it there would be GREAT opportunity to have a public battle with plenty of press. Free publicity for the coffee shop. I'm sure the coffee shop customers would happily sign a petition and it would be the talk of the town... good for everyone except this dorky official.
-grampa dan
[ July 05, 2007, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: Dan Sawatzky ]
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
First, I gotta say I absolutely love that sign & expect to see it in SOTM. Beautiful job!!
...secondly:
quote:Originally posted by -grampa dan: ...put it back up... If the city challenges it there would be GREAT opportunity to have a public battle with plenty of press. Free publicity for the coffee shop. I'm sure the coffee shop customers would happily sign a petition and it would be the talk of the town... good for everyone except this dorky official.
now that is a brilliant idea!
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
WOW! First class job Amy! I don't see red but I would see red.
Maybe I would take Dan's advice.
Posted by Bill Lynch (Member # 3815) on :
Unless it is a true historic district (in which the property owners vote it and it's rules into existence) there is little chance those rules would survive a court battle. Sign ordinances have to be content( and color) neutral. Problem is the time ( and money) to fight is more than most small businesses can afford. I alos like Dan's plan.
Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
That is one gorgeous sign. I like Dan's idea, too.
A while back, I ran into one of those deals where the city ordinance totally conflicted with aesthetics. I provided renditions to the committee of some of the ways the sign could have been built and told them if I'd done that, we wouldn't be in the meeting. They approved our sign.
Sometimes those restrictions do get enforced on national chains. A few years ago when driving through Sedona, Arizona, I noticed McDonald's golden arches were teal.
Posted by Donald Miner (Member # 6472) on :
This is what happens when ignorant, idiot politicians get to decide what is or isn't good for the whole. I have seen similar regulations that were eventually changed when someone had the gumption to challenge them. I wholeheartedly agree with Dan. I for one think someone must be color blind, if they see any red in your excellant sign. I say, give them what for and let the chips fall where they may... Good Luck, Don
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Amy, just be glad you aren't doing sign work in Cary, NC. You'd be amazed at some of the bureaucratic BS in that town when it comes to signage.
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Posted by Jerry VanHorn (Member # 4704) on :
We have to deal with review boards all the time. Somebody that redecorated their bathroom 3 years ago all of the sudden thinks they are a designer. Now they have the authority to tell us how to do our jobs because they have a buddy on city council who appointed them to the review board.
Do you think I am off base??
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
No Jerry I don't think you are off base.
If you comb through every last detail of the sign codes in my town and go strictly by the book, you will see that all signs are completely banned. Of course there are signs all over the place here so obviously either nobody actually knows the codes or they're not enforced at all.
Posted by Chuck Peterson (Member # 70) on :
Amy, that is a very nice sign. I used to do some work in Rancho Santa Fe, just outside San Diego. All signs have to be green and white. Even corporate logos on banks, etc have to change to green and white. Its a very upscale area with nice architecture and landscaping and lots of green and white signs, some of them very poorly designed but they are green & white so they're OK. They would never listen to me. Its a battle I just chose not to fight. I hope someone does.
Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :
Wow, that is nice! I'm sorry I don't have a solution for you but I'd love to know more details on the sign. Is it routered? How did you achieve the texture technique? Very nice!
Posted by Ian Stewart-Koster (Member # 3500) on :
Beautiful sign, Amy. Can't you convince them it's light tan & brown?
Posted by bruce ward (Member # 1289) on :
I have a great way to approach it. Tell them to specify the PMS color they do not approve of. IF they pick out a specific PMS color make sure you pick out a diffrent one since PMS colors are so close. Dont take s*** off these losers hanging onto the past. This is why I dont run anything thru the hysterical society. Its nothing but BS politics and time wasting committees.
Make them pick that PMS coclor and then stick it to them. the signs are awesome and they should be damn glad such quality is availbale to them
Posted by Amy Brown (Member # 1963) on :
Thanks for all the replies. My customer is the one fighting with them. Sad thing is he has had a very popular cafe in town now for over 20 years and they still are busting his chops. I don't know what's going to happen.
Donna,
The signs were sent out to my router guy who did the textured background. He routed 4 signs, two smaller and two larger. The larger signs are glued together with wood boards going across to make a two sided hanging sign. The two smaller are on the sidewalk board. I actually tried to talk him out out the ones on the sidewalk sign as I figured they would get broken easily.
Sprayed and hand painted with RustScat Acrylic Latex Enamels (my favorite paint). The pinky, purply blend was trial and error, again with the RustScat paint.
Doug,
I did enter this in the SOTM but ole David Harding had to make something that blew it away!!! HE HE.
OK, I need to get to work. Thanks again. I'll let you know what comes of this.
[ July 06, 2007, 09:28 AM: Message edited by: Amy Brown ]
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
Boy, that is a really nice sign!!!
I'm afraid I don't have a solution for you, but I could just see this on one of those special interest segments on a local TV news program........"Sign has inspectors seeing red! The Coffe Bistro in downtown Lake Helen was recently refused a permit for a sign the inspectors say is red. This is Joe Soandso and I'm standing next to the sign in question sign, looking all over for the red they are talking about and haven't found it yet. Can any of you folks out there see it?" They eat this sort of thing up.
Posted by Mike South (Member # 4523) on :
I hope your customer fights....Go to the city council meeting or whatever it is. Be a little arogant and set that sign in front of them. Demand to explain the red. Have a sample of RED, hold it next to the sign. Remind them of the 2 generations of business and tax dollars they have paid.
Tell em your using it...or else lawyers get involved.
Historical signs never had color...come on When was red invented anyway?
Very NICE Sign.
Posted by J.G. Kurtzman (Member # 1736) on :
Amy; If your client has been unpopular with the city for 20 years in a previous business I can honestly say that he should not have started the new signs without first getting a permit, and I say this as a commissioner on the Norwalk Ct. Historical Commission. I can remember similar situations where those in controll seem to have had personal issues against those using improper procedures.Truthfully I don't think the color on the sign has anything to do with this one. My suggestion is that he might take this to the zoning board of appeals for restitution.
John Kurtzman john@kurtzmansigns.com www.kurtzmansigns.com Posted by Chris Shuster (Member # 7307) on :
I feel your pain. I recently did a very nice design for a local farmers market to go on as a painted mural on an existing historic building. My design would cover up an old faded non-readable exisitng painted mural on the building. The state was willing to pay the city to make it happen. The city wanted a "sign" but not on the building "as it would detract from a historic building". Hence the city has no money to pay for the "sign" they want and the state won't fund anything but the mural on the building.
Posted by Sam Staffan (Member # 4552) on :
Amy, just ask for the city sign ordinance. It is either going to be written in the way they want or not, bottom line. Then you will know who is in the right. Beautiful work.
Posted by Brad Farha (Member # 931) on :
I can't believe all of the advice to fight the city over this. Apparently a lot of you have never dealt with code enforcement. They are not going to change their position so some business owner can have a little sign with the colors they desire. Especially since they tell you to get it approved before having it made. Even the big chains are subject to conforming to code wherever they set up for business. But this is the customer's problem, not Amy's. Get paid again to change it.
Posted by Dawud Shaheed (Member # 5719) on :
quote:Originally posted by Glenn Taylor: Amy, just be glad you aren't doing sign work in Cary, NC. You'd be amazed at some of the bureaucratic BS in that town when it comes to signage.
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Co- signed...I stay AWAY from cary and I live right next to it.
I don't know what kind of people make these rules up , but around here, some of the KFC's are all blue. Does it make people feel safer or more important to live in these types of communities?
I don't get it either... THe sign nazis have made a few of my customers take down their window splashes also. What a bunch of idiots.
Posted by Michael R. Bendel (Member # 5847) on :
I work constantly in our Historical district here. It seems the goal is to weed out the crap signs. This is definately not the case! What a weird demand. You need to find the origination of that decision to omit red. There may be a simple reason like they didn't want red letters on a red brick building?... who knows? Look into it.
Paint a 2'x4' board fire red & set it next to yours at the meeting.
Beautiful signs! This type of crap really burns my a#@!
PS.. you may want to make an absolutely HORRIBLE & CHEAP sign that fits their criteria (break ALL the design rules you ever knew!) & present that along with your beautiful, professional sign.
Posted by Michael R. Bendel (Member # 5847) on :
Present this to those simple minded control freaks!
! That's brown, not red by the way.
LOVELY isn't it?
Posted by Paul Bierce (Member # 5412) on :
The words of wisdom, "Choose your battles wisely" comes to mind with regards to this whole affair.
Will taking on city hall benefit your business?
Posted by W. R. Pickett (Member # 3842) on :
...be careful with what you show kooks like these, if they see Michaels design, they will most likely INSIST on IT!
Posted by Amy Brown (Member # 1963) on :
--UPDATE-- --UPDATE--
It turns out the contractor that pulled the permits turned in a color copy of the original sketch which looked more red than it should have.
After seeing the sign in person they said nothing was wrong with it and let him put it up. They said the only thing is it should have been made from wood rather than HDU. There are HDU signs all through there!!
So, it's a done deal.
[ July 10, 2007, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: Amy Brown ]
Posted by Deri Russell (Member # 119) on :
YYYYAAAAYYYYYY!!!!!!! Chalk one up for our side! Beautiful work Amy. Congratulations on the install. And you didn't even have to jeprodize your business/city relationship to do it. Win win. Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
Posted by Pete Payne (Member # 344) on :
just a note for the future, i've shown the atkinson and henderson books to hysterical society folks just to wake 'em up about the wild colours actually used for signs back then, they confuse building colours with sign colours, i've actually been told to make the signs with the same 3 colours as the building so the signs 'blend in', why bother with a sign at all? My favourite speech to them is to explain the difference between contrast and conflict and that you can have one without the other. Without contrast you'll love a historic district to death with boredom. Most towns would rather have open stores than boarded up windows and no jobs/taxes, but it's a battle sometimes. CONGRATULATIONS!
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
~~~Aaaaaaaa'meeeeeee~~~whatch'u gonna dooo~~~~~~
Amy, I certainly can identify with your dilemma since we have a 'Hysterical' society too and they are not only VERY picky but disunified as well since for some reason some businesses get away with assinine stuff while others are made to 'walk the chalk'.
I can honestly say that this particular sign would pass here since as you said it is NOT red, nor a 'loud' colour, but more of a 'burnt orange. Our particluar group here evidently believes 'loud' colours did not exist in those days, and thus everything must be some muted-dusty shade of 'age'.
You did a great job and this IS a GREAT looking sign and had I done it I would be almost willing to take it to court just to make the point.
By and large, I've never been completely convinced the historic committees ANY where can really prove what colours were OR were'nt used in the 1800's. We have NO colour pics, no actual colour samples that ar NEW or original . . . What has decades of fading and non-climate controlled ineteriors really done to the colour?? There's no computer data to refer to. Who's memory was consulted for these things??
From ancient art we can see broad use of many vibrant colours from around the world. (Aside from such religious extremists as Amish for example) are we to beleive that the early settlers were the original colour police banning the use of any vibrant colours in or on homes and businesses in the early days of our American history?? Was Betsy Ross an early revolutionist with her daring red stripes??
*sigh* I could certainly add more . . .
Signed, NOT sorry for the rant . . .
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[ July 13, 2007, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: Sheila Ferrell ]
Posted by Pete Payne (Member # 344) on :
p.s. I was once told there was no historical precedent for gold leaf and that it looks too brassy, I asked, in my most diplomatic tone, HAVE YOU EVER SEEN PICTURES OF THE FREAKIN PYRAMIDS? they've been around a little longer than the main drag of Bayfield, and they have gold leaf in 'em
Posted by Len Mort (Member # 7030) on :
Originally posted by -grampa dan: ...put it back up... If the city challenges it there would be GREAT opportunity to have a public battle with plenty of press. Free publicity for the coffee shop. I'm sure the coffee shop customers would happily sign a petition and it would be the talk of the town... good for everyone except this dorky official.
Your sign is absolutely great!
Sign professionals should get involved in re-writing sign regulations in their communities, I highly recommend it!
Most regs. were complied by those who know absolutely nothing about signs and are opposed to everything that applies to them, residents, uninformed individuals and people from histerical groups that want to turn their community into a poster community for the national planning associations.
Revamping regulations to be fair to all, the municipality, community, residents and the most important, the business community, who by the way brings in many tax dollars to support your community Should be of the highest importance.
The United States Sign Council is a great association to belong to for professional sign people. I have been a member for several years, their information and help was beneficial in re-writing our local sign by-laws. I chaired our sign by-law task force, a committee of five brought forth new regulation to protect everyone including the business community.
The USSC will in fact work with you to fight bad and overly restrictive by laws!
I agree with Grampa Dan, Bring out the sign after occupancy permit is issued, use this as a test case. Contact the USSC.
! That's brown, not red by the way.![[Applause]](graemlins/applause.gif)