This is topic Pricing by the hour - NOT! in forum Letterhead/Pinstriper Talk at The Letterville BullBoard.


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Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
 
We don't price by the hour and material costs nor by square foot in our shop. While those methods are sometimes used as a checkpoint, they don't make much sense to me.

When I first got my router and started making signs from HDU I wasn't very fast nor efficient. It was all new territory. We are still learning daily and getting faster all the time. If I had been pricing by time and materials (with a markup) my signs would have been pretty expensive at the start - comparitively. As we got better and figured things out my price would have in fact dropped significantly as I got more efficient and the work better. It doesn't make sense. The opposite should be true.

Pricing by the square foot is also almost impossible for our signs. Everything we do is dimensional, all is custom, and the work involved varies greatly from piece to piece even if the signs are roughly the same size. On one job we would do well and on the next same size sign we might be choking.

Anyone who comes to us has a pretty good idea of the type of work we do and most set us loose to be creative. We generally work by one of two ways... one is regulated by our customer's budget. If they give me say... $5000 to work with then I design something to fit that budget. Its based on value. I do up the design, they sign off on it and we make the sign.

The other approach is somewhat the same... we have a meeting to discuss the client's needs, then I go back to my drawing table and work up an outrageous design... If the customer likes the idea we discuss what it is going to take (as far as money) to pull it off. The final budget is set after the design is done.

Because our signs are so unusual in most cases my clients expect a fairly good sized price tag... it goes with the territory... but in return they get signs that draw a lot of attention and work well for them. They get what they pay for.

I did up a small sign system late last fall for a customer in the city. They had budgeted $900 for a new sign and a sign guy had taken a 50% deposit and then dissappeared. They then saw my work and contacted me about a sign. We didn't discuss budget at the initial meeting except fleetingly, they simply said to go wild. My signs came in at $7000. When I made the presentation they took one look and said GO! When I delievered the signs they were blown away! I got a call a few weeks ago from her thanking me once again for their new signs... for their business was up by 25% because of them. I provided value and based my price on that rather than the time and materials I had used to make them. They could see the value and it has been proven over the last months.

I believe we should strive to work in a standard that is as high as possible, well above the 'normal' or typical sign we see on a daily basis. If we can do this and establish a reputation for it we will separate ourselves from the competition we face daily. We will also put ourselves in a position of being able to price based on value instead of simply having to be the cheapest to get the job. Its a place I like to be!

-grampa dan
 

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Posted by Joe Crumley (Member # 2307) on :
 
What did you say?

Since you work and style is so unique, perhaps you can do free art to help the client establish their budget. You've apparently done very well at it. Lets all start doing this. It's going to be fun.

I can't wait to get back ot work Monday, we'll do away all those hourly charges, and forget the overhead completely. Were going for the outrageous.
 

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Posted by Mike Normington (Member # 7520) on :
 
What was the point of this post again? God bless America! I hope you know a good elbow doctor cuz yours is going to get dislocated patting yourself on the back like that.

I will say this, though - you do some cool work. I checked out your website and your stuff does indeed look outrageous.

[ May 06, 2007, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: Mike Normington ]
 

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Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
 
Sounds like my post was expressed very poorly on my part. While I am extremely proud of the work we do in our shop, pointing that out was not the intent of the post... not at all.

I hear lots of discussion here on the bb about intense competition in various areas... all the time. I hear it locally too on occasion. I hear plenty of complaints of low prices too. I also see how many price themselves based only on their time and materials... or discussions on square foot prices for various types of dimensional work... mostly too low in my experience.

While I sometimes do design work on spec when the situation calls for it, most often I charge a good dollar for it which is paid for before any production starts on a project. Ideas ARE worth a lot of money, sometimes more than the finished sign. Unless I am designing to a specified budget I find it very difficult to price an idea until it is drawn out. Explaining our ideas to a client is virtually IMPOSSIBLE without a design which is most often done as a full blown rendering. This concept art makes the sale in most cases and justifies the money we are asking for - both for the design and for the finished product.

The point of this post like many of my posts is to encourage others to try a radically different way of doing things... different than the norm. Why stay in the same rut if its not working??? I speak from hands-on experience.

Most sign shops undervalue their work, and charge too little. The sad fact though is that if someone doesn't like their price they can go down the street and get a similar sign for less in many cases. The point of my post is not to tell folks to simply charge more for the work they are currently doing for that might be hard to get away with. I would encourage those who have a desire to to improve their skills, learn new things and incorporate these things into your signs. Differentiate YOUR work from the norm and you can charge more... based on value and quality. Build it and they WILL come!

Its a fact that most people sell themselves short... way short. And when I hear of others struggling I feel the need to share what I've learned and been successful at.

We are building it here and they are coming to Yarrow...

-grampa dan

[ May 06, 2007, 03:52 PM: Message edited by: Dan Sawatzky ]
 

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Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
 
Wait a second. Dan, are you trying to say there is an "arrow" in the imagination corporation logo?
 

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Posted by goddinfla (Member # 1502) on :
 
Completely understood what you were saying Dan. I guess if the best you can come up with is Custom Graphics it could go over your head.
 

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Posted by Joe Crumley (Member # 2307) on :
 
Thanks for the re-post Dan. You had me worried.
 

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Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
 
I think that Dan ios using my system of pricing, but using too many words.

Mine is :

"The highest price that you can say without laughing! And if they don't wince, add 'plus install' "


 

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Posted by Mike Normington (Member # 7520) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by goddinfla:
Completely understood what you were saying Dan. I guess if the best you can come up with is Custom Graphics it could go over your head.

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Ooh nice shot. Very weak, but nice. Custom graphics says what I do perfectly. It doesn't need to be cute like - what is yours? Oh, it's nothing. Well, I guess if it says what you do then it's perfect. BTW - " GODDinfla" ??? Get real.

Nothing went over my head. I read the post and it sounded like a grand self-congratulations. That's basically what it was. If you can't see that then maybe your head was the one being overflown.

[ May 06, 2007, 07:05 PM: Message edited by: Mike Normington ]
 

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Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
 
I have always been convinced that Steve pays Dan mega bucks to post his "Feel good" posts. But knowing Steve, he's too cheap to do that!!!

I make a point of reading all of Dan's posts...Have never met him..But he always has an upbeat swing on things. Makes me feel good.

It beats reading the "poor me" posts that make me want to ask.."Maybe look at what you are doing wrong?"

I am by no means in the same league as Dan, either creatively or profit wise, but I like to think that his attitude has helped me in some way.

I may be wrong, but I believe that Dan pursues both creativity and profit with the same zealousness.

Looking forward to your next post Dan, from profitable Granton Ontario.
 

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Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
 
Hey Mike

The internet really sucks as a method of communicating sometimes. Sometimes even in real life those who don't know me take offense at what I try to say. Here on the BB its even worse I guess.

I'm passionate about what I do and do it with a vengeance. I love to share that passion and what I have learned. Sometimes when I express my thoughts badly it comes off as pompous.

Through the years so many folks have shared with me what they knew, as artists, business people, and as friends. I try my best to do the same.

When I am talking with someone in person our conversation is by mutual agreement most often. We can read each other's body language, maintain eye contact and instantly clear up any missunderstandings in real time. Its so much easier in person.

Here on the internet conversations are unsolicited, expecially the first posts in a thread. In this case I expressed an opinion and statement based on my personal experience in making signs. You replied that I had posted "a grand self-congratulations".

Then the post went downhill from there in a hurry as Dennis came to my defense. You replied and it could get real messy from here in a flash if we let it. I hope not.

Now you may think me a little proud and full of myself. You certainly wouldn't be alone. And that's OK. You may even be right.

Its my hope we can someday meet eye to eye, sit down and have a spirited discussion about the things we love and are passionate about. We may just agree on a few things, maybe not. I would suspect we at the very least would gain some respect for each other. If not we could then make a better informed decision about each other's character.

-grampa dan

[ May 06, 2007, 07:56 PM: Message edited by: Dan Sawatzky ]
 

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Posted by Lee Kembel (Member # 7577) on :
 
Thanks for your posts Dan, I make a point of reading them and find them all inspirational.
 

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Posted by E. Balch (Member # 3545) on :
 
Keep posting Dan, I really enjoy reading them.

I think these posts should be collected and reprinted as the basis for a motivational course on how to make a living with your art.

When I grow up (retire) I want to be like Dan. He followed his dream and is trying to show others that they can do the same.

Keep up the good work!
ernie
 

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Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
 

quote:

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We don't price by the hour and material costs nor by square foot in our shop. While those methods are sometimes used as a checkpoint, they don't make much sense to me.

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Am I ever getting a laugh out of this one!

Just pulling number out of you head is a real dream or is it?

You just might want to look at your next door neighbours Cow and ask 'JACK'
How do we trade for 3 beans!

Please be real about....
Materials/Labour Time/ Travel Time/ Overhead/Insurance/Profit Margines/.Etc!

Man my guts are bursting!

[ May 06, 2007, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Deveau ]
 

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Posted by Mark Tucker (Member # 6461) on :
 
God I love these boards!

You're right, Dan. The internet can truly suck as a place to communicate. Even phone calls are better 'cause a tone of voice can say a lot more than words. I have been misunderstood myself more than once, not just in here but on other boards and with e-mails as well, but I take it with a grain of salt. It just happens and it can happen to anyone. I try to never get into a pizzin' match in Cyber Space. It's a little like competing in the Special Olympics, IMO.

You do have me "thinking outside the box" in one regard, grampa; I want to go nation-wide, as in shipping signs across the country. Some (many) sign makers in eBay are already doing it. I'm not into the outrageous stuff like you, but more the basic CNC stuff like, well, you know what I do.

That being said, and with all due respect, you do have a way of coming across in here sometimes as "Y'all ain't doing it right! Look how I do it!" I don't think you mean to come across like that, and I do enjoy and often reply to your post (sometimes tongue-in-cheek), but I'm sure you are aware that most of us are just fine with how we "do it". For me personally and with 2.5D, a price per sq. ft. works out very nicely in most instances, thank you.

Again, I love your work, man!
 

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Posted by Mike Normington (Member # 7520) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Dan Sawatzky:
Hey Mike

The internet really sucks as a method of communicating sometimes.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Stephen Deveau:
[QUOTE]Please be real about....
Materials/Labour Time/ Travel Time/ Overhead/Insurance/Profit Margines/.Etc!

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From reading Dan's posts in the past, I never got the feeling that he is unaware of the costs associated with running his shop. On the contrary, he knows those numbers, but he also knows the value of the work. He doesn't limit his pricing to just covering the costs of doing business. He is willing to go much higher, if he feels the work is worth much more.
 

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Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
 
Thanks Russ... THAT is what I was trying to say but obviously didn't.

-grampa dan
 

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Posted by Dave Draper (Member # 102) on :
 
Dan,

I've enjoyed your posts, also. Its sort of like you are writing your book, or memiors, on line.

If you ever do write a book, and I think you should, I won't have to read it because you have covered most of your life here already, but I would buy a copy!

Your perspective on things has merit and value. I take what I can use out of your brain, and leave the rest for that Texan guy to joke about!

Thank you
 

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Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
 
I am still laughing!

Say I am the competion down the road.

Your price is for example $10,000 bucks

But I can prove with all the break downs of cost it will only be $5,000
Talk about putting your own foot in your mouth?

I have never just gone to a Garage and said "Fix It!"
I would like to know the Parts and Labour of the job.
You will also never walk into a Grocery Store and pick up an item without looking at the price first.

Like asking your insurance compamy "I need insurance!"
Well this is the break down on what we offer!

Now I am bursting at the seams!

Dan I am not saying your work isn't outstanding.
It is Great!
But over 35 years in business most customers like to see the breakdown of their project.
Knowing how it was spent.

Not by pulling dollars from your hat, but providing real facts


[ May 06, 2007, 11:16 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Deveau ]
 

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Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
 
Stephen, you are comparing items that are similar, like cans of Campbell's Soup. Those things are commodities that vary little, and can be found anywhere. What about paintings from a famous artist? Those things are more than the cost of materials plus labor. The actual cost of a canvas and paint is pretty low, but the price in the gallery can be thousands and thousands of times more. If there is only one source for something, and it's something worth having, the price can be high. Would someone come into an art gallery and start griping about the cost of paint and canvas?
 

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Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
 
Well, you laugh all the way to the bank with your $5000 and Dan will laugh all the way to the bank with his $10,000 and you can both be winners, Stephen. Nothing wrong with that picture.
That's one of the things Dan has been saying....place yourself where there is no competition....offer a unique product.
Whatever you may think of Dan's ideas and attitude...he is proof his way works and he tries to help and encourage others to think that way. I'm not sure I understand why anyone takes offense at that, but the fact that there is a large contingent that appreciate and look foward to his posts tells me it is all in the way you want to read them.
 

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Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
 
Ooops, I must have thought that was worth saying twice.

[ May 06, 2007, 11:21 PM: Message edited by: Kelly Thorson ]
 

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Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
 
Russ

Please tell myself that you insure your customer the best of materials that can be used in the Design or Image..
But you like to walk around the corner and find it for a lesser price.
Now it doesn't last but you convienced your customer it was all and good.
As a consumer in life I like to see the break down of if my house was made from
MUD or BRICKS!!!

[ May 06, 2007, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Deveau ]
 

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Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
 
Have we forgot the header of this posting?
PRICING BY THE HOUR-NOT.....

Seems to me that we all have an hourly figure in mind to conform to a project and with a pad and paper.
We work our labour and material prices.

And to present this in front of our customer gives them satifaction of knowing were their dollar is being applied.
 

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Posted by Dusty Campbell (Member # 4601) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Stephen Deveau:
You will also never walk into a Grocery Store and pick up an item without looking at the price first.

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quote:

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Ain't nothing special about sign folk. Nothing special at all.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mark Tucker:
if he can command any price he thinks of without actually sitting down and thinking about it, (materials, labor cost, time, etc.), and make a lot of money and sell lot's of jobs, GREAT!

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quote:

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Most folks in here are paint artist, muralist, pin strippers, or run vinyl and digital printing shops, etc. Am I wrong? If not, tell me how they (we), are supposed to follow Dan? Build what, exactly?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dan Sawatzky:
We don't price by the hour and material costs nor by square foot in our shop. While those methods are sometimes used as a checkpoint, they don't make much sense to me.
-grampa dan

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To me, THAT'S where he says it, Russ!

Now hold on here, this is a great thread and a good debate.

I was educated in the sign business by a strict boss that built his business from scratch and who was a stickler for every little detail! The man was a tyrant by any definition of the word, but a smart and successful businessman nonetheless. He was ruthless about pinching pennies until Ol' Abe SCREAMED, as well as arrogant, abrasive, demanding and EXACTING! He was a miserable SOB and I hated him at that time and for all those years, but I learned a lot from Bill. It was an 9,000 sq. ft. shop and office complex with an average of maybe 25 employees. In all those years I worked there as a designer, I can say for a fact that not one job went through without Bill's involvement and thumb print during pricing. Everything had to be accounted for before, during and even after fabrication and installation, no matter how big or small. If anything was missed, God help us! And while he had absolutely NO talents as a sign man himself as far as design and such, he retired a multi-millionaire 15 years ago at the age of 55. Raises Arabian horses on his ranch in south Florida and travels to exotic far-off places frequently. Sweet.

Bill got filthy rich in the sign business but he was nothing special other than being what he was,...a smart and competitive businessman. He wasn't doing anything the competition wasn't doing: Lit cans, plastic faces, channel letters, neon, vinyl, pole signs, installs, crane lifts, etc.

I'll be 55 in a few weeks and I'm nowhere NEAR accomplishing what Bill did and the way he did it, and I honestly can't say that I wouldn't like to.

Can you?
 

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Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :
 
Mark, you're interpretation is not what Dan even said.

Dan doesn't USE those guidelines to compute his final price. But that doesn't mean he isn't accounting for them.

edit: better way to say the above

[ May 07, 2007, 03:47 AM: Message edited by: Donna in BC ]
 

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Posted by Jon Butterworth (Member # 227) on :
 
The BOTTOM LINE is what it costs in time, materials, overhead to produce a sign and provide a reasonable profit, livable income.

Every dollar above this "Bottom Line" is pure profit in your pocket. Every cent below it and you will start to struggle to make it up on the next one.

How you price a job using the bottom line depends on your market. If you are producing "competitive" signage ... yes you need to compute accurate costs. But when you can offer more in quality, uniqueness and service, the market "value" raises in a steep curve.

It boils down to experience. I can tell without figuring out detailed time, materials etc basicly what a job is worth to ME and the MARKET. That's my "Base Line". I won't go below it.

This is what Dan is saying.

I figured out long ago how much time and money I was losing doing "competative" quotes I never got or lost profit doing.

Just my 2c worth ... make that $200 ... my time is worth a lot more nowdays!



 

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Posted by Mark Tucker (Member # 6461) on :
 
Donna, honey, I don't have any beef with Dan (or anyone else in here for that matter), at all. But we all arrive at the same thing, one way or another, or we'd ALL be out of business, no?

Picture a big circle. In the center of that circle is a tiny and sometimes elusive dot called "success". That crazy dot can be interpreted many different ways. There are 360 degrees (points) of entry around the circle that lead to that dot in the middle. Pick one and go for it. I'll be the LAST one to tell you that the point of entry you picked was wrong, because although you may hit the dot, it may mean different things to you than it does to me. Kopesh?
 

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Posted by Mark Tucker (Member # 6461) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Jon Butterworth:
The BOTTOM LINE is what it costs in time, materials, overhead to produce a sign and provide a reasonable profit, livable income.

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And what's wrong with that?
 

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Posted by Jon Butterworth (Member # 227) on :
 
Mark, for a start I object to you refering to Donna as "Honey".

She is not your wife and in my language any else of that word in reference to a lady is demeaning.

Don't talk down to a very talented and self sufficient woman.

Your anaolgy of success leaves a lot to the imagination.

As for Dan's Posts ... I think they are constructive. Yes, we have the syndrome here in OZ of "cutting down tall poppies" ... successful people.


But Dan is SHARING his experiences. Most are good because he is successful. We can learn from that and strive to be as good because he tells us how he got there.

The biggest turning point in my life was to stop putting a dollar/cent value on things and started being me, doing what I like, loving what I do, and sharing that freedom.

I call THAT success!
 

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Posted by Mark Tucker (Member # 6461) on :
 
Well Jon, didn't mean to ruffle your feathers, but where I'm from, the term "honey" is a compliment and nothing else. If a lady is nice to me, I may say, "Thank you, sweetie.", or "Thanks, honey". That's just "Southern Talk", and is meant in no way to be disrespectful. It's a natural way of speaking around these parts, and I won't apologize for it.

My analogy of success is mine alone. I'll leave yours to you. If you tell me that mine should be the same as yours, I might beg to differ, honey,...ooops, I mean, sir. In any case, I happen to LIKE your definition of success. It may not be the same as mine, but I can like and RESPECT it nonetheless.

I have not insulted anyone, especially Dan. If I have, show me where, would you? I may have questioned and challenged, but insulted? Where?

What you're missing, Jon, is that Dan enjoys a good debate and I'm trying to give him one and not be a "nod head".
 

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Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
 
So when is somebody gonna realize that what's really being discussed here is "PERCEIVED VALUE"?

Just wondering...
Rapid
 

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Posted by Mark Tucker (Member # 6461) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ray Rheaume:
So when is somebody gonna realize that what's really being discussed here is "PERCEIVED VALUE"?

Just wondering...
Rapid

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Good question, Rapid.

I "perceive" the 2' x 4' 2.5D sign that's being cut in the shop as I type this to be worth $7,000.00, but my customer don't "perceive" it that way!
 

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Posted by Bob Gilliland (Member # 28) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Mark Tucker:
I "perceive" the 2' x 4' 2.5D sign that's being cut in the shop as I type this to be worth $7,000.00, but my customer don't "perceive" it that way!

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Aspire to work with, and only accept, those clients and commissions that do; work less, make more.

I would much rather work on one $100.00 dollar job (what I read Dan as saying much of the time) then one hundred $1.00 dollar jobs (what I read your approach to be).


It’s all in the ride. Some like Chevettes, some like Corvette’s, and some prefer to use Gulfstream G5. Everybody may eventually arrive at the same point, but the energy and resources expounded to get there varies greatly. The G5 will get you there quick but at what expense? The Chevette will get there as well, but at what expense? In my opinion there is no free lunch in this world; either pay now or pay later but we will pay one way or another at some point (being it money, time, etc.).
 

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Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
 
Dan,
As usual, thank you for another of your inspiring posts. Please keep them coming because I very much enjoy reading them.

To Mike, Mark and the others who don't get it, did you find the arrow yet?

Seriously though, Dan is a big boy and he can defend himself. If you choose not to agree with his comments, that’s fine too. However, if you don’t have anything positive or constructive to contribute, please do the right thing and keep your comments to yourself.

From what I read, Dan is offering words of wisdom that comes from many years of experience. You may think he's patting himself on the back, but, to us that "get it", he's offering sound business advice. And, believe it or not, he is in a competitive environment, just like the rest of us. If you don't believe me, just google "Themed Environments" to see what he's up against.

From what's he's been saying in all his posts, he has chosen to grow and market his business using a different path or approach, one that is not based on traditional methods, “itemized pricing” or “time or materials”. His business offers turn-key advertising and promotional solutions, solutions that will practically guarantee an increase in revenue for his clients.

If you take Dan’s approach to marketing and apply it to your business, I think you’ll notice some changes. If you told your client that you can provide a 15% - 25% increase in sales, do you think they would listen? I know I would, and it doesn’t matter what you’re selling.

Naturally, the next question would be what would you willing to pay for these services? Even a small business, only earning $100,000 a year, can see a $25,000 increase in revenue in one year. So, would it be safe to assume that this client would be willing to spend $10,000 to get $25,000? A business person that “gets it” wouldn’t hesitate if they were properly presented with such an opportunity.

So, what do you do next? Well, that’s up to you. You can continue running your business the way you always have. But, be prepared to get the same results you always have. Or, you can start to think outside the box and start providing unique advertising and promotional solutions to your clients.

Before you say “we can’t do that here” or “we can’t get those prices here”, just take a look around you and look at all the money being spend on "advertising". The money is out there; you just have to figure out the solution to pick it up

Havin’ fun,

Checkers
 

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Posted by Paul Bierce (Member # 5412) on :
 
The sad fact is that in the design business it's practically gotten to the point where most people are doing design "by the pound".

I personally find Dan's posts to be very inspiring and get a lot out of them. Rather than being resentful for the success he's acheived, I'd rather be honest with myself and examine where my thinking and expectations have limited my success.
 

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Posted by Mark Tucker (Member # 6461) on :
 
Where did I say I was resentful and where did I say I wasn't honest with myself?

Man, grampa dan, you wouldn't BELIEVE a couple of the sick hate e-mails I've received from my comments in this thread! Truly sick! All from Canada, BTW! Threatening, ugly, vicious, all of that stuff from the usual "Internet Tough Guys". Sad! Truly sad! Of course, they wouldn't say who they were. Typical cowards.

What should the records show, Dan? That you should never be second guessed, questioned or challenged? That there should never be another opinion, thought or "way of looking at things" after yours? That your word is golden and never to be looked upon as anything other than the Holy truth?

You know I don't feel or think that way, and I know you don't either. Please calm your Canadian neighbors down before they come down here and kill me!
 

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Posted by Joseph Diaz (Member # 5913) on :
 
I see where Dan is coming form and I always enjoy hearing… err reading what he has to say. Out of the goodness of his heart and on his free time he comes on here and shares his stories and experiences with us. From reading what Dan has to say I only think he is trying to help inspire those of us on here that complain about how we aren’t getting the dollar we deserve, not to brag about his success. When I read something like this it gets the gears in my head turning. I believe that is what he is trying to do. He is successful and is getting paid well to do what he loves. I don’t know about you, but that is where I want to be.

I also hear what Mark is saying I think in some areas of the country this especially holds true. Customers like to see how their money is being used. I don’t think a lot people understand the value of their own business image. And it’s our job to do that. I think a lot of our competition out there fails to educate the general public how valuable what we do truly is, therefore we find ourselves in a pricing war with the guy down the street. I think that is where Dan’s point comes in.

>> Rather than trying to compete with other sign shops on price, compete with them on value. << This is the approach our shop is trying to take.

I believe this all partially related to the type of sign as well. On smaller jobs I don’t think it’s worth it for our business to try to educate a customer how valuable signs and designs should be. We would be wasting too much time for a job that we might not get. We simply pull open our Estimate software, type in the figures and out comes the price. I also believe that some customers like to see this type of system in place. They don’t want to see us pull a figure out of our heads, whether the figure is fair or correct. And even though we think, eat and drink signs, to the average customer a sign is no different then any other product they can pick up at a retail store. I wish it weren’t that way but I believe that we as the sign industry have let it get to that point.

But this is completely different for the larger product that our business produces. We take our time and all of us, designers, workers and owners get together and come up with a quote for that project. This approach probably won’t work for most of you. But for us it works great, Ben and myself are learning how to better price a project and we are all giving our input on how much money and time we are going to spend to finish the job. It won’t always be like this but it does help us become more involved in the whole process and in return we can charge what we believe we are worth. The customer isn’t just paying for our time and material and overhead they are paying for our knowledge and experience. I think that is what Dan was trying to say.

That being said, I don’t think Dan is going to convince Mark how to run his business any more than Mark can convince Dan. They both seem to be perfectly happy doing things the way that they are and that’s the important part.

[ May 07, 2007, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: Joseph Diaz ]
 

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Posted by Deri Russell (Member # 119) on :
 
Mark honey, perhaps you didn't stop long enough to hear what Bushie was trying to tell you. Endearments to people you don't even know ranks right up there with calling names. Particularly if they are followed by a condescending paragraph with a drawn "picture". So I too am pointing out to you that Donna deserves far more respect than you gave her. In smaller words. Do you understand sweetie pie? When you are on here you are not in Georgia where you profess the women accept that a man is just talking Southern talk.

Now as far as

quote:

---

What you're missing, Jon, is that Dan enjoys a good debate and I'm trying to give him one and not be a "nod head".

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quote:

---

I'll be 55 in a few weeks and I'm nowhere NEAR accomplishing what Bill did and the way he did it, and I honestly can't say that I wouldn't like to.

---

Being the self professed bottom feeder that you say you are you WILL be working and fishing for a long time to come, instead of retiring. And when someone comes on the board with great advice as to how to get out of that rut of working by making good money, why do you consistantly argue that he shouldn't? Because although YOU don't seem to be getting the larger picture, that Russ, Dusty, Ray, Bob and Checkers have all pointed out the larger picture still remains. PERCEIVED VALUE. (Perceived means what everyone thinks its worth, ok honey?)
And our work has more value because the plumbers, painters and brick layers can't do it. They don't have the imagination. But if you want to provide them with your services for $1 a square foot you run with that. And then go fishing. Because you're going to need that for supper.
 

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Posted by Mark Tucker (Member # 6461) on :
 
Finally, a well thought-out and reasonable reply! Thank you, Joseph!
 

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Posted by Joseph Diaz (Member # 5913) on :
 
After I posted I noticed Marks post before mine, Mark, I can’t say I feel sorry for you. Dan seems like such a nice guy and from what my parents have said after they met him he truly is, AND… when you start to notice all these people get on this post to defend Dan whether they think he’s wrong or right… ANNNND that fact that Dan never loses his cool and always stays positive; there is no wonder why you might be getting flamed. I’m not totally convinced you aren’t enjoying it. People do love drama… am I right? That being said I totally see where you are coming from I just think it’s your tone. It’s hard to portray emotion on a forum such as this.
 

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Posted by Paul Bierce (Member # 5412) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mark Tucker:
Where did I say I was resentful and where did I say I wasn't honest with myself?

---

Sorry for any misunderstanding. I was actually refering to MY OWN impulse to become resentful and be dishonest with myself when it comes to other people's success.
 

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Posted by Mark Tucker (Member # 6461) on :
 
Deri, honey, calm down. Donna has my complete respect, as do you! But when I'm in here, I am who I am, and that's all I can be. I don't knock anyone else for who they are, but I do reserve the right to disagree, question, and forward my own opinion, wrong or not. No?

Plumbers, painters and brick layers can't make a good sign, but can you plumb a house, paint it, or lay its' foundation first? Can you build the kitchen cabinets? Can you perform open heart surgery, operate an M-1 A-1 Abrams tank, design a 70 story office building, or coordinate a meeting of thousands of people from around the world in a convention hall? It's all work and it all takes skill. That's my only point with that. What we do as sign makers and sign writers is important indeed, but no more so than what everyone else does to make the world go 'round. No?

Chill out, sweetie pie!
 

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Posted by Jane Diaz (Member # 595) on :
 
And I totally agree with Deri! NOTHING gets my dander up faster than having some guy I barely know call me "sweetie, honey or baby"!! I don't care if it IS the way that Southerners talk or what excuse you have....MOST women don't like it. PERIOD!
It's degrading and I will usually take offense...and if you're a customer, you're in for a price increase!!
 

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Posted by Mark Tucker (Member # 6461) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joseph Diaz:
After I posted I noticed Marks post before mine, Mark, I can’t say I feel sorry for you.

---

You needn't feel sorry for me, Joseph. And yes, you are correct, sir. I am actually enjoying it!

Thank you.
 

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Posted by Mark Tucker (Member # 6461) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jane Diaz:
And I totally agree with Deri! NOTHING gets my dander up faster than having some guy I barely know call me "sweetie, honey or baby"!! I don't care if it IS the way that Southerners talk or what excuse you have....MOST women don't like it. PERIOD!
It's degrading and I will usually take offense...and if you're a customer, you're in for a price increase!!

---

It's no "excuse", Jane. It's just the way it is 'round here! Sorry!

Women in my neighborhood expect it and get right upset if they don't hear it. It don't mean nothin' but I can tell I'll NEVER convince you of that!
 

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Posted by Deri Russell (Member # 119) on :
 
Mark, my widdle Lamby chops doodle noodle, I'm not getting back down to the name calling anymore.

I suppose the brick layers, plumbers and painters in your area all charge less because you just can't get a good buck for quality work there, no? Or is that just the sign business that doesn't get a good buck for quality work in your area?
 

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Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
 
I do love a good debate, but when comments turn personal the points we are trying to make quickly get forgotten.

I suspect Mark knows he can pull my chain in a hurry. Arguing for the sake of arguing isn't really a debate and that is what seems to be happening here a little I suspect.

We use a lot of non-traditional methods in my business - both in fabrication and in the way I charge things out. Its worked well for us and we've enjoyed a good deal of success. I've chosen to share some of that here along with stories of the happenings in my life. Its long been my hope that through my ramblings some folks might be inspired to try some of what has worked for me. The other stuff, well I hope it makes a few folks smile... perhaps even chuckle from time to time.

I understand my seemingly always positive outlook riles a few folks. I also understand my ways and methods of doing business don't make sense to some folks or simply won't work for other people. That's OK for its MY WAY and everyone needs to march to the drum of their own choosing.

Marching to my drum (with Phoebe banging) in Yarrow...

-grampa dan
 

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Posted by Mark Tucker (Member # 6461) on :
 
Deri, sugar doodle, who said that we don't all get good money down here? Did I say that? Where? I charge a low rate compared to some, but I have high volume. It's all CNC work and nothing else, and the way I have it set up, it's easy enough. It's all good. Dan may sell one job a month for whatever amount, and I may sell 10 to make the same money. But believe me, it's the same amount of work.

Brick layers, painters, carpenters and plumbers all make good money down here, unless maybe if they're illegal immigrants. Y'all got any of them in Canada?
 

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Posted by Mark Tucker (Member # 6461) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dan Sawatzky:
I do love a good debate, but when comments turn personal the points we are trying to make quickly get forgotten.

I suspect Mark knows he can pull my chain in a hurry. Arguing for the sake of arguing isn't really a debate and that is what seems to be happening here a little I suspect.
-grampa dan

---

quote:

---

It's no "excuse", Jane. It's just the way it is 'round here! Sorry!

Women in my neighborhood expect it and get right upset if they don't hear it. It don't mean nothin' but I can tell I'll NEVER convince you of that!

---

This was the daily meditation I received today, shortly after reading your post....thought it was relevant...
"May 7, 2007
Feeling Our Words
Words Have Weight
Words carry energy and this gives language its power and its potential to heal or hurt. Most of us can remember a time that someone sent a word our way, and it stuck with us. It may have been the first time we received a truly accurate compliment, or the time a friend or sibling called us a name, but either way it stuck. This experience reminds us that what we say has weight and power and that being conscious means being aware of how we use words.

The more conscious we become, the more we deepen our relationship to the words we use so that we speak from a place of actually feeling what we are saying. We begin to recognize that words are not abstract, disconnected entities used only to convey meaning; they are powerful transmitters of feeling. For the next few days, you might want to practice noticing how the words you say and hear affect your body and your emotional state. Notice how the different communication styles of the people in your life make you feel. Also, watch closely to see how your own words come out and what affect they have on the people around you.

You may notice that when we speak quickly, without thinking, or rush to get our ideas across, our words don't carry the same power as when we speak slowly and confidently, allowing those receiving our words time and space to take them in. When we carefully listen to others before we speak, our words have more integrity, and when we take time to center ourselves before speaking, we truly begin to harness the power of speech. Then our words can be intelligent messengers of healing and light, transmitting deep and positive feelings to those who receive them."

[ May 07, 2007, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: Jane Diaz ]
 

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Posted by Mark Tucker (Member # 6461) on :
 
I'll think about that, sugar.
 

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Posted by Deri Russell (Member # 119) on :
 
Thank you Dan and Jane. You are right. I will do my best to grow up.





Mark


Ok now I'll do my best to grow up.
 

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Posted by Joseph Diaz (Member # 5913) on :
 
Mark, I would seriously consider knocking that off. I'm all for trying to stay positive and seeing your point of view as a relevant one, but I don’t see your point of view when it comes to degrading other people including my Mother, whether you are joking or not and especially after she asked you not to. Please stop and let’s stick to the main subject
 

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Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
 
Well, since this has turned into a free-for-all.... hehe..

Mark, you have to remember that some folks here live above the Mason-Dixon line and have their cords wound a LOT tighter than us southern folk... I made a couple stops in town this morning and was called sweetie, darlin' and honey by women I've never even seen before, and didn't even think about it more than a few seconds. So ladies, down here, I get called those terms a lot more than I actually use them for women...

In other parts of the world, those are fighting words apparently. I myself will be more careful as well.

Edited to add: This isn't to say I agree with you on your debate with Dan though... I understand what Dan is saying. My grandfather has done woodworking for many years and gets several thousand dollars for a dining room table. I could build one too, using the same materials and amount of time... and get about $800-900 for it if figured by TIME/MATERIALS method..

But when he has a real demand for his quality of workmanship, and people know he'll deliver a more-than-satisfactory product, they line up for his work... he has turned away LOTS of people asking for them. Now why in the WORLD would it make sense for him to even consider his materials and time, and try to price off that?? Like Dan, he knows exactly what those factors are, but they have absolutely nothing to do with his price. It's not even 'PERCEIVED value'... it is the 'TRUE value' way of pricing.

((I apologize if the word 'ladies' is inappropriate in some part of the world))

[ May 07, 2007, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: Jon Jantz ]
 

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Posted by Mark Tucker (Member # 6461) on :
 
Joseph, chill out dude! I'm not out to degrade or demean anyone! I like to think that I have no enemies in this world, but me thinks I may be making some rather quickly in here without intending to!

I hear ya, Jon. I never thought about that, it never entered my mind, I swear! *Whew*!!!!

Ummm,...I do sincerely apologize to anyone whos feelings I may have hurt in this thread. Please forgive my ignorant ways. Thank you.
 

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Posted by Joseph Diaz (Member # 5913) on :
 
I see what your saying Jon, It doesn’t bother every one up north and I don’t want you to think that every one that lives up north has a rod up there buts and bent to the left. But I have learned that if you say something that is perceived as hurtful by the recipient you simply say sorry and move on don’t sit there and continue to push buttons. (I’ve also learned don’t P(*s off my mom. But that’s another story ) Be who you want to be and say what you want to say but keep in mind that the things you say do have consequence. Mark said something that obviously bothers my Mom and Deri which in turn bothers me… ( I mean its my Mom, plus I got to hear about it all day ) Marks consequence is that now some people don’t like him, and now he is going to get flamed from here on out, but I think mark likes a good fight so he will probably be fine with that. Not trying to preach just letting some people know where I stand. It’s not a regional thing it’s just me.

Mark it’s no big deal, don’t sweat it. You would have to do more to push my buttons like making fun of Corel Draw or something haha . Besides, I kind of had to, it’s my Mom. As long as you can simply say sorry your cool in my book.

P.S. I’ll probably regret saying this later , but, it wasn’t probably the best idea for my mom to get on here after you post and post here “daily meditation” she should have just let it go. It was only going to make things worst in my opinion. But that’s my mom and that’s why I love her. hahaha

[ May 07, 2007, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: Joseph Diaz ]
 

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Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :
 
Heck, you can call me sweetie, honey and sugar all you want. But you better not ever call me "maam".

~nettie

[ May 07, 2007, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: Janette Balogh ]
 

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Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
 
Anybody for Chinese?
 

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Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 
Mark...
I'm way to busy (turning down those Benji's) to read all the F'n up of this thread that you caused... but I will say I think you can be a real jerk & I would prefer if you started your own "ordinary jerk" threads instead of trashin' other threads.

If you are Soooooo afraid that Dan is some kind of pied piper telling you to follow him....

quit following him around spewing your malcontent loser attitude so loud that it threatens to drown out what most of us check in on his threads to find!
 

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Posted by Mark Tucker (Member # 6461) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Janette Balogh:
Heck, you can call me sweetie, honey and sugar all you want.
~nettie

---

Do you really mean that, sweetie pie?

(Oh, damn, there I go again! )
 

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Posted by Mark Tucker (Member # 6461) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug Allan:
Mark...
I'm way to busy (turning down those Benji's) to read all the F'n up of this thread that you caused... but I will say I think you can be a real jerk & I would prefer if you started your own "ordinary jerk" threads instead of trashin' other threads.

If you are Soooooo afraid that Dan is some kind of pied piper telling you to follow him....

quit following him around spewing your malcontent loser attitude so loud that it threatens to drown out what most of us check in on his threads to find!

---

Amazing that you read the whole thread just to say that, Doug, but I'll post whatever I dang well please in here an not be nearly as insultive and disruptive as you are, thank you.

Folks, let the records show that I have never intentionally attacked anyone in here and never will. My Momma raised me better than that. I do, however, reserve the rights to my own thoughts and as long as I observe a proper code of conduct, I can post them here. Show me where I've called anyone a bad name other than "sugar" or "sweetie", if indeed that's a bad name.

Dan post about how he runs his business. I'm not the only one questioning his methods (read the thread), but I'm the only one that really catches hell for something that really means nothing! Dan is gonna do what he does, I'm gonna do what I do, as we all are. Chill out, Douglas!
 

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Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 
I gues I wasn't clear.. I DIDN'T READ THE WHOLE THREAD! (however, I skimmmed enough to see the unrivaled level of repetitive disruptiveness you have risen to)

...and "jerk" may be an insulting term to you... but it's just hawaiian for a square pegheaded fool forlornly stuck among round out-of-the-box thinkers
 

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Posted by Mark Tucker (Member # 6461) on :
 
Ladies and gentlemen, let the records show that although this has been a spirited thread that has taken many turns, nothing at all really got ugly or personal until Mr. Allan jumped in with his ugly and personal attacks on me.

You one of them "Internet Tough Guys", Doug?
 

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Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :
 
Yes Mark, I really do mean that.

I think you are a nice guy, who isn't shy about sharing his point of view, and is entitled to it. I don't think you've been insulting either.

I think what happens on here is what's called the "last word" syndrome. I think that happens when people feel their view is not being heard, understood, and validated.

Sometimes I feel as though I'll say something on here and it lands on "deaf ears", just because someone doesn't acknowledge it.

I've come to realize that many people really do "hear" us even when they don't respond. Also, that not everyone will hear the same thing, or in the same way it's intended. Some will hear only what they wanna hear. But mostly, I've learned that you just can't take things personally.

"am I seeing things as they are, ... or as I am?"
That's one of my fav quotes, and here's another one. "look for the glimmer of truth in every opposing opinion".

Some people will get what you are saying, and other's won't. It's a wash.

As for the honey, sugar, sweetie stuff. I don't take offense at all. You can only best determine if it's meant sincerely when its said in person.

For me, whether it's intended sincerely or as a sarcastic put down, I don't give it much energy either way.

Still, a word of advise. If you know it offends someone ... then it may be respectful of them to refrain.

~nettie
 

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Posted by Paul Bierce (Member # 5412) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by David Harding:
Anybody for Chinese?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Janette Balogh:
Yes Mark, I really do mean that.

~nettie

---

 

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Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
 
This is probably about a good a place as any to ask y'all about a new invention I'm working on.

An Automatic Peanut-Butter & Jelly Sandwich Maker. It will have a vacuum table to hold the bread down and an optional automatic jar changer so you can select different flavors of jelly without stopping operation.

I'm still not sure about the peanut butter and jelly spreading mechanism, whether I should have a mechanical spreading device that would smear the PB&J on the bread, or design a multi-nozzle device that would squirt an even coverage on the bread.

I'm thinking of branding it MultiJam, but have also thought that PeanutBot might work too. I'm naming it the "Capt'n's Peanut Butter and Jelly (or Jam) Automatic Sandwich Maker" which seems a little cumbersome but descriptive.

Anyway, when I have it made, I'm gonna invite everyone in Letterville over for PB&J sandwiches... it's gonna be a blast!!!
 

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Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
 
Jon,

The multi-nozzle device might not work on normal crunchy. You'll have to use the new Eco-Crunch and then overlam with another piece of bread.
 

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Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
 
Jon,

Have you seen the new movie "Meet The Robinsons" yet?

The kid invents a peanut butter and jelly dispensing unit which uses a dual component nozzle application system, and has an optional bread toasting attachment.


 

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Posted by Henry Barker (Member # 174) on :
 
I have read most of this thread

I admire Dans' work and read alot of his posts and aspire to reach better levels myself....feel sometimes too that I undervalue myself. Its not easy to get "percieved value" right.

I can see where people can get riled about Dan's posts and the "hey look at me factor or whatever", but I believe his heart is in trying to get those of us that want to, up a notch or two and are, for the most part great encouragement so keep them coming, I look for them first when I have time to log on.

As for Mark I have read lots of his posts, and just see somebody that does things a different way, questions, and discusses, and that too is of interest, there are many more Mark's out there than there are Dan's.

I thought this place was for discussion and learning from all aspects, sharing opinions, we've all got them and we're spread out over the world where cultures and terminolgy differ.

I see nothing offensive in Mark's terms of endearment, poeple back home in the UK in shops and all over, who you've never met call you, sweetie, dear, honey, petal etc etc.

Doug over the years, I've seen you very quick to jump in and give people a hard time, where does this thread warrant you giving Mark abuse, and nothing more about what's being discussed.

I guess after visiting here for over 10 years, its when things go sour that it feels less appealing to log in, you don't see the levels of venom and hate that some people attract in realife meets so why here, have people nothing better to do with their time, or are there own lifes so pathetic, that that's all that remains.

Keep the great pics and posts coming Dan, and keep the discussions going, and lets all learn from each other, it might just make the world a better place.
 

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Posted by Mark Tucker (Member # 6461) on :
 
Great post, Henry. Thank you again. Don't leave us here in Letterville.

10 years? Wow!

[ May 07, 2007, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: Mark Tucker ]
 

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Posted by Mark Tucker (Member # 6461) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jon Jantz:
Anyway, when I have it made, I'm gonna invite everyone in Letterville over for PB&J sandwiches... it's gonna be a blast!!! [/QB]

---

I'm THERE, dude!
 

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Posted by Brian Oliver (Member # 2019) on :
 
Sometimes I simply can't understand what goes on within the pages of this BB.

This thread started with Gramps trying to raise the level of professionalism and profitability of anyone who chose to listen to him with an open mind. A worthy point, no doubt about it. Then Mark says "Whoa there, cowboy, your philosophy is not universally implimentable" (At least that is how I read it up to that point.) Then the house fell in on Mark. What a shame that some people had to divert the intent of the thread and turn it into a truly ugly vehicle for personal attacks.

If I may, I would like to return this thread to its original intent. Dan, congratulations on finding an approach that works so successfully for you. Getting more than simply what is needed to meet one's needs for a continuing business is a goal that I cannot see anyone reasonably arguing against. However, there is one small but important piece of this whole philosophy that I haven't seen addressed. Maybe I'm just not smart enough to suss this out, but how, exactly, does one determine with any sort of quantifiable precision what the sign is worth? Isn't the worth of a sign (or anything else for that matter) determined ultimately by the marketplace? For instance, let's say you're attempting to sell a house for , say, $250,000, but can't get any offers even though you believe it's worth every penny, then the house isn't truly worth that amount. So you start lowering the price until someone finally agrees that the house is worth the asking price. That, then, is what the house is really worth. OK, that example is surely not a graduate level scenario. But my point is how in the world do you price your signwork at "what it is worth" without going through this process? One can put a price on a sign and be convinced that the price reflects the true value of the sign, but how does one convince the customer that what one is asking is the "worth" of the sign?
Another way of looking at this is: why is a canvas with a few pennies worth of paint smeared on it valued at millions of dollars simply because Picasso smeared the paint and signed his name? (This is a rhetorical question. I'm not asking for a lesson in art history.)

I'm afraid that my point isn't being clearly stated, so I'll try to boil it down to the bear bones of my confusion. Dan says our signs should be priced according to their "worth" and "value". I'm sorry but these terms are essentially meaningless without context. And the context is the market. By all means get every last dime you can squeeze out of the customer, but you'd better have a good idea as to exactly where that last dime is, or else you be explaining to some HR person at your job interview that you weren't successful as a sign business owner because you and the market disagreed as to the "value" and "worth" of your signs.
 

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Posted by Rene Giroux (Member # 4980) on :
 
3 pages guys..... start a new post !
 

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Posted by Mark Tucker (Member # 6461) on :
 
It's cool, Brian! Thank you (and others). I lived, and will live to post another day. I appreciate your interest, but you're not likely to get any answers in this thread from the other camp. Go to bed!
 

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Posted by goddinfla (Member # 1502) on :
 

quote:

---

Ooh nice shot. Very weak, but nice. Custom graphics says what I do perfectly. It doesn't need to be cute like - what is yours? Oh, it's nothing. Well, I guess if it says what you do then it's perfect. BTW - " GODDinfla" ??? Get real.

Nothing went over my head. I read the post and it sounded like a grand self-congratulations. That's basically what it was. If you can't see that then maybe your head was the one being overflown.

---

Sorry if I offended. It's just that there are at least 5 Custom Graphics around here, all at flea markets churning out pi$$ing Calvins. Since you just joined last month maybe you didn't understand that Dan wasn't bragging, just offering his own slant on pricing. I also must apologize if my boardanme offends you. It's part of my name and where I live. Next time I'll consult you and maybe you can think up a "Custom" boardname for me. Nothing went over my head, but I can imagine with all the things going over yours if you were two inches taller you'd have a big bruise on your forehead.

Have a nice day.
 

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Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
 
Time out, kiddies (and if the term kiddies offends you, read on no further).

To the best of my knowledge, I'm the only person here who has ever been the recipient of Mark's hospitality. Are we the best of buddies? Maybe not, but I have no reason at all to believe that Mark's use of "pet names" was intended to be meant as demeaning or offensive. He's quite honestly tried to apologize and been met with Psuedo-similar pet names with the bite of sarcasm...from those same people he has apologized to.

Meanwhile, while the pots continue to call the kettle black, Dan's intitial post gets buried under a heap of name calling, we go off on the differences in etiquette from Canada to Georgia and 3 people I have shaken hands with are getting all nasty at each other.

I have read Dan's original post. Although his methods are successful in his market, it is not necessarily going to work for all the markets we have and we are not all at the same skill levels. That is beyond disagreement...it is simple a truism.
I appreciate that Dan's passion for his work is readily apparent in his posts. He has worked hard, made his niche work and done well. Although I have never met him, I certainly wouldn't mind doing so.
But moreso, I would like to meet him for something else he has taught me about this board and how I post on it.

I have done some griping in the past, and have had plenty more I could have done. Dan's best lesson to me has been to keep it upbeat, have some confidence and leave the dirty laundy in the hamper...not drag it out for all to see on this board.

There have been some sharp barbs thrown around on this post. Some have been from people I would never have expected to hear from in that regard.

Last I checked, they were all better than that. I hope they still are.

This board wasn't created to determine winners and losers. It was created for us to share, improve each other's lives and maybe talk about sign stuff once in a while.

...and we CAN agree to disagree.
Rapid

[ May 07, 2007, 10:59 PM: Message edited by: Ray Rheaume ]
 

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Posted by Ian Stewart-Koster (Member # 3500) on :
 
Dan's daily positive and enterprising posts here are like an early morning caffiene fix to us out here- we look forward to them with eagerness, and enjoy the guts and philosophy in what he says.

It's an axiom though that some things said can be misinterpreted from time to time, on the 'net, and we all suffer from those bumps in the road.

The highway ahead looks a bit smoother from here... onward march!
 

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Posted by Tony Lucero (Member # 1470) on :
 
Outstanding post Brian! Mark you got convictions and common sense..that isn't too commonplace nowadays. Most of us live in the real world and we can't readily or easily relate to those lofty and seemingly unattainable levels of marketing our products and services. I get it that you admire Dan as many of us do, nothing you've said has indicated otherwise. Thanks for expressing a well articulated opposing (alternative)point of view. I think its cool when a female customer or associate calls me Honey...I automatically feel more comfortable with them. I don't respond in kind...because it's not natural to me (people (adults) can usually discern tone,intent,and phonyness. I'm dissappointed in Doug and Deri's posts on this thread, both are almost always calm and thouthtful in their comments and I have agreed with them on many many issues as well as gained from their knowledge. I remember when many on the site stated they were struggling to crack the $100K gross sale mark...now they feel OK to slam a guy who is making nice bucks and charging modest prices (mostly to other sign companies). Would any of you feel comfortable in asking for someone like Dan for a wholesale quote that you could offer a product to one of your customers and mark it up for a profit? We need all levels of participation on this board and we also need an opportunity to debate many differing viewpoints.
 

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Posted by Graham Parsons (Member # 1129) on :
 
Well said, Rapid. After all, if there was one business model that was supreme and worked for everyone - every business would be doing it.

I've never met either Dan or Mark but like them both - for what they each bring to the table.
 

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Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
 
Honey's Dah'lins and gentlemen..

WElll now, bein' from down that a way .

Honey, Dah'lin and other terms of endearment are all part of the local Southern customs and used by both men and women (usually more women to men). All you have to do is watch just one movie themed in the South and you will see it. Every one gets one of them terms of endearment all the time. If you don't get one you either dead or an @ssh@t.
Its the very same as when a northerner comes south and "hey guy" to a male or says "yous' guys". Usually no offense is taken.
So those who don't like it are usually ill informed or just misunderstand. Please unpucker the panties.
 

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Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
 
These conversations would go much smoother if we concentrated on the subject being discussed rather than the person speaking. Sometimes I wonder how much a person's photo has to do with initial impressions, but that's another discussion.

Letterville is about People that call themselves Letterheads. A Letterhead never strives to be average. We've made a personal decision to push the envelope and go the extra mile. Our goal is to learn the best of our past, and explore the best of today's new technologies as Brothers and Sisters.

Dan is a great example of a positive thinker. There are many successful, happy people out there that believe that our thoughts and words can actually have an effect on our dreams and aspirations in this life. Could it really be just that simple?

I was introduced to this concept in the early 80s. Up until that time, I got all my advice on life from drinking buddies and people in my own economic and social level. Well meaning people that loved me, had convinced me that dreams were for children and fools. In a nutshell, I was average.

Most people seem to feel pretty comfy around average people. Whenever my group ran into anyone with a better lifestyle, a really nice house and/or happier than us we would find a reason to bring them back to our level. "His family helps them out" or "He's a crook!" are two that come to mind.

A series of events, one being a burning desire to work for myself, resulted in a discovery of books like The Magic Of Thinking Big, Psyco Cybernetics, Think And Grow Rich; just to name a few, fell into my hands. Where had this stuff been all my life?

What really stood out to me were these words. If there is something you desire to become or have, find the people that are already doing whatever that is and do exactly what they are doing!

At about the same period, I quit drinking. I wanted my own sign business, but I also wanted to be above average in my work. A bunch of people called Letterheads had been gathering at small meets. Their signs were far and above anything I had ever saw! They were doing what I wanted bad! In 1983, we maxed out our credit card and attended our first meet.

Did it work? That's a hard one to answer. I did not live happily ever after. Some bad things, like 4 heart attacks happened. When you are going through hard times, there are days you want to just strangle the positive thinkers. It's so easy to backslide and allow old habits and thought patterns to poison your thinking.

Overall, I'd have to say the process has worked well. Some say it was luck, but I used the "it's possible" attitude to create this website. Whether you love or hate it, nobody can argue that it's had an impact on all those who follow it.

Two years ago, some dumbass Doctors and other "dreamkillers" amost had me convinced that I only had a few years left. Barb and I sat down and did the 3 wishes thing. I even wrote them out on paper.

The first was to see a Daughter dying in hospital recover from her 20 year heroin and coke addiction.

The second was a longtime desire to visit New Zealand and Australia.

The third is more personal. I love to play guitar, but my insecurities have always made me avoid playing in front of people. In the time I have left, I want to see just how much I can improve and to play more in public.

When you have a dream, and begin to allow yourself permission to really believe in that dream, it is my experience that something magic often happens.

My Daughter in Vancouver never returned to the streets. Instead she went into Rehab. She says she was sick and tired of being sick and tired. Last August, Barb and I flew to Vancouver. I was the proud Dad that presented her with her 2 year cake at Narcotics Anonymous.

A Month later we were back in the air on our way to Letterhead Meets in New Zealand and Australia. Thanks to Letterheads and this website, we only had to spend 3 days out of 65 in motels. Not much average about that!

I'm still no Eric Clapton, but I am improving on guitar. It's not luck. It takes daily practise, an investment in online lessons and hanging out with those who play the way I want to.

This post has a heap of "I"s in it. It's something I try to avoid in posts, but this is a very personal conversation about me with all of you, my Letterhead friends.

I want to dare all of you to stop trying to be average. You deserve better! Put your petty differences aside, find a dream, search for a mentor that is doing it and get to work.

Give yourselves a hand!
 

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Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 
I guess some folks here feel that my comments are out of line. I'm not sure how many here had noticed that this thread was hijacked into oblivion long before I arrived, but I guess that's irrelevant.

I may have a history that has included blunt outspoken remarks in the past, as was noted above. I've also been known for "calm and thoughtful replies" in the past. In this case, I felt I needed to voice my opinion to Mark about his behavior in this thread, & personally I don't feel that my comments are out of line. I will concede that they didn't need to further disrupt this trainwreck of a thread, & could maybe have found a better venue.

For Henry, or others that may not have been around as much the last few months, I will mention that Mark's tendency to show up on Dan's threads & intentionally stir up controversy has been repeated several times recently & I for one, have found it to be uncalled for.

I love a meaningful debate as much as the next guy... & without a doubt, I have taken that fact past the point of interest for many others here... so I am not without guilt in this matter. I have been scolded or rebuked at times & would like to think I have been open to criticism & learned from it.

From a quick click on Marks post count, one can see he has racked up 24 posts on this thread. Look at a select few of Dan's other topics to find another dozen or two of Marks replies & among them there has been a recurring theme. The defensiveness of his own "ordinary" work... the challenging of Dan's rights to call his work "signs" the accusations & misrepresentations that Dan's remarks seem to be calling everyone else "simpletons"

I've seen Mark's inflammatory & antagonistic badgering going on for weeks. I've even received unsolicited calls from thousands of miles away to rant about the unpleasantness of this.

I give Mark credit for the legitimacy of his views & for his right to express them, but I think as a new participant in a widely attended, long standing public forum... his "mark" can be left as profusely as he wishes on his own threads... but IMHO, his 24 posts here are a good example of an unreasonable level of distraction! (from a guy who calls me "disruptive" )

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mark Tucker:
You needn't feel sorry for me, Joseph. And yes, you are correct, sir. I am actually enjoying it!

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Mark Tucker:

Doug, but I'll post whatever I dang well please in here an not be nearly as insultive and disruptive as you are, thank you.

---

Mark, I guess you believe that. Personally I do not believe that to be the case by any stretch.

You can hide all you want behind the Dixie Defense... but out of your 350 posts before this thread... I ain't seen any honey, suger, or sweetie pies flying around. I've seen more then a bit of your own personal vinegar & whine though... & when a few others besides myself seemed to have had just about enough... out comes what most of us perceived to be an intentionally insulting tone.

To throw another half-dozen sweetbombs around real quick to everyone who specifically identified that as insulting to them... That's inexcusable! Almost as insulting is the claim that it was harmless & typical Mark-speak

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ray Rheaume:

There have been some sharp barbs thrown around on this post. Some have been from people I would never have expected to hear from in that regard.

Last I checked, they were all better than that. I hope they still are.

---

Ray, sad to say... I doubt I'm one who you didn't expect barbs from... but I'll assume I'm at least one of the one's who's usually better than that, and will try to usually be
 

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Posted by William Holohan (Member # 2514) on :
 
Mark,
It would seem that you really enjoy being the opposition...even if you cannot really believe what you are saying.
Now in my youth, I worked one summer in the outdoor amusement business as a "Guess Your Weight And Age." hustler. I learned a lot. Although I can't guess your weight from here, and you already gave away your age...I'll try something a little different.
I'll bet you wear a size 46 jacket and a size 3 hat.
Just a little Yankee humor Mark. Get it. No disrespect intended you understand...

[ May 08, 2007, 05:57 AM: Message edited by: William Holohan ]
 

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Posted by Deri Russell (Member # 119) on :
 
As I said yesterday, I will try to grow up. Around here terms of endearment are just that. Unless they are being used in a sarcastic manner. Because Mark and Donna are not near and dear to each other, I felt it was sarcasm. And I was not the only one who felt that way.
When something or someone offends me I lash out. I am a defender of my family, my morals, my friends and the people I respect. (Not that they need it. They can defend themselves.) But I still am someone who is family, friend or a person that respects them. So I do. Then its done, and I move on. I find it the easiest way to keep peace within myself. To say what I think, get it out there, and be done with it. That way I don't brood about it, because I don't think thats healthy. I don't generally hold grudges. I try to get the person I am having a "tiff" with to understand my point of view and I do my utmost to try to understand theirs. If the person I lash out at continues, and I can't understand what their point is I avoid them. I have only lashed out once before at someone on here. And I got responses from people wondering why I lashed. They did not see my point. But to me it was important. Yesterday I felt that way as well. Today I could care less. I made my point.
Mark and I emailed, just in case anybody thinks it will be an ongoing thing, no, it's done.
 

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Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
 
feelin the love in letterville! i haven't been on much but this was glaring so i had to skim it.
kinda feels like deja-vu(sp?)or maybe the record skipped...the record skipped...the record skipped.

hey everyone...have a great day!
 

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Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
 
I rarely price by the hour, except for removing old vinyl!

It doesn't work for my little niche market either.
~Kumbaya~
Pass me a brownie, Karyn darlin'!
Love....Jill
 

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Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
 
I've been following this post from the start. This morning I sat down and read it again in it's entirety from the beginning. Mark seems to singled out as the "trouble maker" here, the one who has turned this into a trainwreck.
I found the re-read this morning to be very eye opening indeed. I would suggest to some of you to just start from the beginning, read every post and you'll see the man was only offering a different point of view. The post was getting ugly long before his "Honey" comment, which being an Yankee living in the South I can take both ways.
Mark seems to have a different way of doing things that really irritates some folks on here. Hey, if it works for him that's fine with me. I can't say I can relate to his way, but then I don't relate to Dan's way either. It is, however, refreshing in my opinion to get another slant on things. Dan gives his advice and views a lot and he has a whole horde of followers, yet NOBODY offers up anything else. Here come Mark, with a different point of view and he gets roasted like a liberal at a Rush Limbaugh show

[ May 08, 2007, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: George Perkins ]
 

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Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
 
Woohoo - - - - - 100
 

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Posted by Bill Lynch (Member # 3815) on :
 
Just had to make it an even 100
 

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Posted by Bill Lynch (Member # 3815) on :
 
dang, George beat us both Jon

[ May 08, 2007, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: Bill Lynch ]
 

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Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
 
DOH, Bill.... we were sniped by George.
 

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Posted by Brian Oliver (Member # 2019) on :
 
Well, let's try this again.

In my previous post, I intended to steer this thread back to its original theme, yet most of the replies posted after mine were more concerned with making nice, personal histories and jokey, irrelevant observations.

So....if I may restate my question (because I am very much interested in the answer). How does one ascertain the "perceived value" or "worth" of a particular sign? Or more to the point, how does one convince the customer that the sign is "worth" the asking price? Is this accomplished through clever sales techniques? Comparative marketing? Does one simply declare to the customer that the sign is worth "x" amount of dollars because one occupies (no, dominates) a particular niche in the market, as Dan apparently does, and therefore through sheer force of reputation command this type of pricing?

If anyone has some advice in this vein, I sure would like to hear it.

And let's keep this thread on track, shall we?
 

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Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
 
Brian, I am interested in the answer as well. Why not post it on a fresh thread so people don't have to wade through all the chaos to discuss it?
 

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Posted by Bill Lynch (Member # 3815) on :
 
Well, I don't know about Dan's world, but perceived value has always been part of the sign business.
A 4'x8' site sign never commanded the same price
as a 4'x8' store front sign, though both were very similar in cost to produce. Why? Because the customer "values" the sign on his store more than the developer values the sign in front of his construction site. Then the same two guys would blow twice that lettering their boat.
 

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Posted by Joseph Diaz (Member # 5913) on :
 
I’ll take a crack at answering your question, Brian. I know I’m young and my opinion won’t count to some, but I feel I’ve logged many hours and learned a lot about the industry in my short time here on this earth. I can thank all the helpful letterheads I’ve met in person at meets while growing up who took the time to take interest in me, teach me something, and encourage me to keep going. I can also thank my parents who have taught me about every thing I know about this art. In saying that I believe that we can’t prove to our customers how much a sign is worth as a “product” unless we deal with only material cost, time, and overhead… but it is possible to show our value as craftsman and artists. I see our business as selling ourselves and our services long before just a product. How much do you think you are worth? The abilities that we have learned over the years separate us from our competition. The guy down the road may not be able to paint, or sand blast, or carve, that doesn’t mean he or she doesn’t belong in the business but it does mean that if we can offer more, and more unique services, we should be able to charge accordingly.

We pride our selves in longevity of our signs, we use better materials and we use them correctly because we know what happens when you don’t, we’ve been there done that. It’s about experience and quality
Our abilities as designers also should be a factor, following simple design rules like no red lettering with a black drop shadow on a white sign. You would be surprised how many people still don’t know this.
Or in Dan’s case especially the abilities to think outside the box, be creative and unique.

I 100% agree with what Dan has to say. A possible way to run a sign business is to be thinking more than just how much per hour and per square foot. Not to take away form what Mark has said, I also see where he is coming from. I used to work for a sign company that was run that way. As an employee I find I can take more away from each project and I have a better since of pride in what I’m doing when I take the approach Dan is recommending. I go home happy, and I’m excited to go to work the next day. This could possibly be why Dan seems to always be in a great mood.

Also because Mark was man enough to say sorry, I would be a hypocrite if I didn’t say sorry myself. I apologize if I had any part in steering this post into a negative direction.

[ May 08, 2007, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: Joseph Diaz ]
 

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Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 
What I believe in the perceived value concept is that my prices fall between two extremes.

My acceptable range is a smaller subset within the wider gamut between losing money or shamelessly gouging a client.

I think there is some truth to Si's humorous claim to quote "as high of a price as he can say with a straight face" ...I thought it was just a joke, but within reason I think it is an experiment to test the market & prevent us from the ever present risk that our fears become our own biggest obstacle to financial success. Once I heard Nettie talking about logo design (now that's pure perceived value)and saying to just practice letting larger numbers roll off the tongue, I realized Si wasn't kidding. Obviously we don't want to laugh & we can't speak a price like a shy question... but if we beleive our work has a higher value this year then last year... that genuine belief, along with a little practice, commands the higher price.

Of course we don't get our price every time, but I think we have to lose a few in this process of "testing the market"

I mentioned a range. The high end of my range is what I just noted above. The low range works like this.

When I'm really busy & not that intrigued by a project, I might aim for the high end of my range... but if I am a little more hopeful to get a job, while still wanting to be well paid for everything I do... I arrive at my first price... then I picture myself losing the job to the guy down the street. I ask myself if I knew he got the job for X number of dollars... would I be wishing I had bid that price.

I know it sounds simplistic, but if I was about to bid $2500 & I picture myself being ****ed that I hadn't bid $2000 if I learned the other guy got it for that... then I might back down a little closer to that.
 

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Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
 

quote:

---

I realized Si wasn't kidding.

---

His words are sage advice.
I quoted a pair of replacment pans and just about bust out laughing when I said it. After all it was only about 1,000 more than I first thought. Si's words flashed into my minds eye when I presented the quote. Even though Si himself said "That's a pretty big slice of that ham".

The customer said Ok. Of course I added Plus install will be more. Another Ok!. It doesn't take many of those to reinforce those words I can tell ya. After that I got less work BUT, I made so much more it made up the difference.
 

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Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
 
I am still rolling on the floor!

What part of this business makes it so special?

Every child from the day one has been handed a pencil and piece of paper.
Or even a stick to draw in the sand with!
Oh! Son/Daughter you have so much Talent!

That is human nature to use our imaginations....
I am amoung others that would like to say "POOF!" there is the magic price,.

Sorry todays commerce doesn't work that way!

The more you sit down and fill in the blanks for the consumer and the reason of its cost, the more he will trust you on you judgement.

Nobody said you can't charge $1000.00 an hour but you better beware that they will ask why.

Labour/Time/Overhead/Materials and all the hidden cost factors.

Documents are an insurance to the case of costs.

And as far as great artist......
Their pieces only make money once they are Dead!
Thats now call collectables!
 

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Posted by Ricky Jackson (Member # 5082) on :
 
Boy what a friggin' trainwreck!! I don't see the big deal and why such a big mess was made over a non-existant problem. Dan made his point and someone else had a different view; what's so different about that from any other post on here? As some of you know about me I'm not afraid of a good fight so I'm going to give my 2 pesos.

Bushie, I think you offended about every southern guy and girl on here with your inflamatory remarks to Mark and I think you owe him an appology. But I'm not the Letterville Police Department so I can't enforce that. Like Jon, I get called "sugar", "honey", "baby", "darlin" and so on by ladies every single day, some of whom I've never even met. It's a fact down here in the south; you ain't gotta like it; it is what it is. You're not even in America for crying out loud.

It really grinds on me to find that some of the Canadians wrote hate mail to Mark for expressing his opinions. I held you guys in higher regard that to do that crap. I got plenty of ribbing and some hateful remarks when I "smuggled guns" in Canada, an honest and costly mistake on my part but I took it on the chin. Do some of you think Dan is a god or someone you have to prop up? Lets not make this a nationalistic issue. We all know Dan is awesome and we admire him for what he does but we have David Butler, Gary Anderson, Mike Jackson and a few hundred other folk that are just as talented. I remember a sign being at the door at the early meets "Leave your ego at the door".

I see Dan's point. I see Mark's point. I thought they were all good until Dennis and Mike decided to get up a hockey game. I think Mike Pipes made an absolutely brilliant post and I liked Mark's analogy about the circle; anybody that sees anything demeaning in that is seeing what they want to see, not what's there.

You Canucks just remember (1) I'm more famous in Canada than any of you (I have my picture in over 4,000 post offices there). (2) I have a baby seal that I'm going to club if you don't stop this ****ing contest.
 

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Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
 
OK...Ricky has spoken. Let's all go to bed.
 

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Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
 
Ricky, now you have let the secret out!

I was getting $25.00 per print of you at all the Post Offices....

Now I can only charge a
'Nickel/Ninety Five'..
"ONE WHOLE Canadian Loonie!"

Man! did you ever kill my business.
But then again!.. at 4000 prints I think I will do all right!
LOL...

I am going Sealing this weekend.
Excellent food on the table!
 

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Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
 
Perceived value.
I'll take a general crack at this one since I coined the term earlier.

For the most part, it's based on the customer's perception, not ours, and has a few benchmarks.

Speed.
How much is it worth to get it quickly. This isn't just limited to signage, but applies to vehicle lettering as well. Whether a store is about to open or a truck driver would like to not tie up his vehicle, being able to hit the deadline has value to many.
Being able to produce quickly isn't limited to just vinyl, either.
Experienced pinstripers who are both fast and precise make get top dollar for their work. Someone who can do fast scripts and knock out a few trucks a day can make just as much as the guy laying vinyl on the same trucks when you break it down to materials. A few ounces of paint can do what a couple of rolls of vinyl will in the right hands.

Overall image.
What customers see as artistic (cartoons, murals, airbrush work, hand painting, gold leaf, hand carving, etc) have a bit of an advantage. The perception is already there. It should require less effort to get the prices when the customer already has some idea that what they are looking for is not traditionally cheap.
Similarly, a good layout, regardless of materials used, can be seen as valuable when producing signage. A coroplast sign with an attractive layout done with clipart can earn as much as an MDO sign with simple block lettering. The perception then shifts to how much appeal it will have and how effective it will be.

There are certain limitations.
Digging a post hole isn't seen as very valuable, but installations still have a price. Removing vinyl will never be held in the same esteem as doing realistic flames on a Harley.

Just a few thoughts...
Rapid
 

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Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brian Oliver:



How does one ascertain the "perceived value" or "worth" of a particular sign? Or more to the point, how does one convince the customer that the sign is "worth" the asking price? Is this accomplished through clever sales techniques? Comparative marketing? Does one simply declare to the customer that the sign is worth "x" amount of dollars because one occupies (no, dominates) a particular niche in the market, as Dan apparently does, and therefore through sheer force of reputation command this type of pricing?

---

My answer in a word.....Credibility. I've always believed that the more credible you are in the eyes of your customer, the more you can charge.

Take Mike Lavallee for example. What do you want to bet people are willing to pay more for his work today than they were for that exact same thing 10 years ago?

How about Dan Antonelli? Look at where he was back in 1995 and look where he is today. Why is his business able to grow in such a competitive field with such a high failure rate?

Two years ago, I sold a 6'x2.5' carved/gold-leaf hdu sign for $3200. Four weeks ago, I sold a near identical sign for $7500. Why? There was nothing special about it. There are plenty of other shops in the area who could have done the same job just as well.

The only thing I can think of is "credibility".

.
 

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Posted by Mark Tucker (Member # 6461) on :
 
My last post in this particular thread, regardless.

Mr. Allan, sir, if you think you're going to dictate to me how I can post, what I can post about, how often I can post and in who's threads I can post in, you are sadly mistaken. And the fact that you have 7,000+ post and I only have (God help me!) 350 or so makes what difference exactly? You seem to have an obsession about post counts, and I can't help but find that rather laughable. And let's not forget the facts: There was no ugliness as far as childish name-calling until you started up. I see your attacks on me as a reflection on yourself as much as anything else.

You claim I hijacked this thread. Show me where, would you? In any case, and speaking of hijacking, you admittedly hijacked my thread here, but I didn't climb down your throat about it, did, I? I was a gentleman about it, was I not???

Let the records show that I consider no one (not even Doug and a few others), in here as my "enemy", despite what you may think about me. This is a message board and a place to share ideas, thoughts and opinions, discuss and even argue (in a civil manner), as well as (hopefully), have a little fun. Since we are all different as human beings, our ideas, thoughts and opinions will differ, naturally, and thank goodness for that! If we all felt and thought exactly the same, what a boring world this would be, no?

Peace out, y'all...
 

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Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
 
After weeding out what this post was about I've decided to say that if I charged by the hour and not by the minute I'd be dead broke I give a price, execute the job and go on my way.

Thats all I have to say.
 

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Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
 
Amen Reverend
 

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Posted by Neil D. Butler (Member # 661) on :
 
WOW! A trainwreck indeed. Ricky you crack me up and I agree with everything you said. Here in Newfoundland we answer everything with "Yes my Love" or "No my Love". Honestly we do, well at least a lot of us do,men and women, it's just who we are. I have to be careful when I'm down in the states or there happens to be a Black person I'm dealing with, because another phrase we use '"All the Time" is "Yes Bye!" or "No Bye" and imagine how that;s coming across a Black Person.

Dan's post's are inspiring, but at times they drive me nuts, he just seems so happy all the time, and I get jealous, lol. this is meant in a good way Dan. Because I read everyone of them and I try to take what I can from them for my situation, no I don't have a multicam, but I try to be the best at what I do with what I have. Instead of buying that CNC, I did purchase a wide format to compliment my Edge, so that in itself is reaching a little further, maybe a router is in the works soon, I know I may be '"Born Again" with it.
I was'nt born with a silver spooon in my mouth, neither was my wife.. we have never recieved any help from anyone, and it's been a struggle, believe you me.

Thought I'd just add my thoughts to this thread, and as a Canadian I would never send hate mail, there's nothing to hate.

Edited, after reading my post I noticed my "Tag Line" "Keep Positive"... there is absolutely nothing wrong with Keeping Positive.. at times I know it's difficult, but the one thing about Dan's posts that we can all agree on is that there's never anything negative about them is there? Imagine if all his posts were about negative things, I wonder how we would react to them, some would give him Encouragemant and after a while some would tell him to put a lid on it. lol So keep posting Dan, hope to meet you someday and wishing that some of you will rub off on me.

"Yes Bye!"

[ May 09, 2007, 06:29 AM: Message edited by: Neil D. Butler ]
 

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Posted by Brian Oliver (Member # 2019) on :
 
Glenn,

I believe you're right...at least partially. I suspect the answer exists in more than one part. I think that if Gramps were to put his mind to it, he'd come up with a number of factors. It's great to get your, and other's, take on this.

BTW, congratulations on getting that price for the sign.
 

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Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brian Oliver:
Glenn,

I believe you're right...at least partially. I suspect the answer exists in more than one part. I think that if Gramps were to put his mind to it, he'd come up with a number of factors.

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I agree to all of that wholeheartedly.

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Posted by Ricky Jackson (Member # 5082) on :
 
Can't we all just get abong?


 

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Posted by Kelsey Dum (Member # 6101) on :
 
mmmmmmmmm.....twinkies! ahhhhhhhhhh, you are wise in your Yodaish ways!
 

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Posted by Dusty Campbell (Member # 4601) on :
 
Reminds me of that Cheech and Chong where it turns people into lizards.
 

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Posted by Jackson Smart (Member # 187) on :
 
This has definatly been a real hoot.

....and now grasshopper, here is the parable of the fish. You see, once in the far far past, there were fish that lived in the stream. At birth they were told to hang on fiercly to the rocks on the bottom. Never let go, for if you do you will be dashed to death on the rocks further down the stream. So every fish was content to hold onto the rocks....life was good. They were afraid so they would dutifully tell their offspring to follow the rules made up by thier elders. One day, a little fish decided to see what would happen if he did let go. So he let go and immidiatly was swept down stream. He was tumbled against the rocks until he started to move his fins and tail. Look! he said, I can move around freely! they were wrong to tell us the hold tight! So he swam back up stream and told the others to just let go...you will not be dashed against the rocks after all. you can swim just like me. They were so afraid to follow this one, so they held on tight, never experiencing the joy of swimming in the current.
I tell this story to you grasshopper, to let you see that never trying something new and daring to let go of your safety rock will keep you safe but not let you swim. We all need to swim.

I tell this story because many years ago I sat with Dan in his studio in Chemainus, B.C. and looked around at what he had accomplished and said " hey, I can do this" Since that time I have tried to accomplish my goals, made many mistakes along the way, but I am now very comfortable in my life and business.

Even if you think you know how to run your business, there is always someone out there that dares to think outside the box. Listen to them, use thier methods and then accomplish what you desire for yourself. You are responsible for you.

Remember always....Sucess is the nature of your journey!


Jackson
 

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Posted by Ricky Jackson (Member # 5082) on :
 
Dan did you do the incredible murals in Chemainus?
 

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Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
 
I did four of the murals in Chemainus... with one more (maybe two) planned this summer.

-grampa dan
 

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Posted by Ricky Jackson (Member # 5082) on :
 
If you could smuggle me into the country I'd be glad to clean your brushes for you. ...go get you coffee. ...nanaimo bars.
 

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Posted by jake snow (Member # 5889) on :
 
Wow! Didn't get a chance to read the post. What are we talking about?
 

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Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
 
Pretty much anything you want, Jake. It's been hijacked about 30 times.
 

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Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
 
this thread goes to 11
 

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Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 
Well, it's one louder, isn't it?
It's not ten.

You see, most blokes, you know, will be at ten.

You're on ten here, all the way up...
...Where can you go from there? Where?

Nowhere! Exactly.

What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?

Eleven. Exactly. One louder.
 

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Posted by goddinfla (Member # 1502) on :
 
This post needs.....MORE COWBELL
 

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Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
 
Yeah, but why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number and make that a little louder?
 

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Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 
but Jon...
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quote:

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Originally posted by Russ McMullin:
this thread goes to 11

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Posted by Ron Gibbs (Member # 3882) on :
 
Dan I agree with you 100% and Mr Butterworth your analogy is Right On.!I know where Dan is coming from and couldn't have related my thoughts any better.Good Thread!Everyone works differently but when you are "Specialized" in a certain field you can change many of the perimeters to work better for you.
Ron.

[ May 11, 2007, 01:12 AM: Message edited by: Ron Gibbs ]
 

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Posted by Mark Tucker (Member # 6461) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by jake snow:
Wow! Didn't get a chance to read the post. What are we talking about?

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AND


 

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Posted by Paul Bierce (Member # 5412) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Russ McMullin:
this thread goes to 11

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Haha, Nigel's one of my friends on Myspace!

"No, no one can touch it! Don't even look at it"
 

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