This is topic used grain frame in forum Letterhead/Pinstriper Talk at The Letterville BullBoard.


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Posted by James Chrimes (Member # 5864) on :
 
Does anyone have a used grain frame thet they would like to sell?
Thanks Jim
 

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Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :
 
Jim, I would make one yourself. All you need is the patience to drill a bunch of holes in the steel frame. You could make a rectangle out of steel tube if you weld or even bolt some angle iron together into a rectangle.

I saw some signs blasted with a home made frame that resulted in more realistic grain than my real Grain Frame. I'm going to restring my Grain Frame myself for the more realistic look.
 

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Posted by David Schulz (Member # 6931) on :
 
Could someone post some pics of how the real ones are constructed? I would like to build one, but I'm not sure the best way to tighten the wires. Also, what size/type wire would you use? I've heard that smaller wires vibrate under the gun.
 

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Posted by Joe Crumley (Member # 2307) on :
 
James,

I've made several of these and the're a pain to make and it takes time. That said, you can get better results with the home built. You can achieve so many different wood affects. From driftwood to tight vertical grain.

I like using all sorts of wire. Even bailing wire, or barbwire mixed amoung the lighter guage. They must be mounted on a metal frame. The larger frames, lets say 6' wide loose tension. That's because when you combine differnet diameters of wire some loosen up faster. I've never found a way to keep them all taught. It's not too much a problem. You just have to adjust the speed you travel with your blast nozel. Move slower.

I like the commercial Grain Frame and sometimes lay it over my home made unit. It breaks up the monotony.

I'm now working with a CNC and reduce the background down prior to using the frame. This makes the blasting process very fast.

I'm not very fond of wood grained done with the router. I'ts ok for some folk though. The truth is I like the real thing best.

I'm not encouraging sandblasting. Aside from the danger of breathing the dust, there is the pure durdgery of the process. Still, I'll keep at it.

I have a 10' SB booth that allows me to do the job without the mess. I couldn't do the job the old way. It's just too hard.
 

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Posted by James Chrimes (Member # 5864) on :
 
Thanks for all the help.
 

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Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 
nice drawing Todd.
 

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Posted by Michael R. Bendel (Member # 5847) on :
 
Yes I do. Email me if you're interested. The wire is spent of course.
 

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Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
 
I don't want to start a big battle here, but something about this bothers me. If that's an exact copy of a real Grain Frame we may be wandering into the copyright infringment area.

Anyone who has ever had their original design, font, clipart, or other idea knows the pain of seeing others reap a benefit from their ideas and hardwork. Isn't that what we are doing here?

Yes, I realize that doing something better, faster or cheaper is the American way. All of us are interested in saving a dollar, yet we get upset when others make their own signs.

I've never seen a real GrainFrame so I may not know what I'm talking about here. Todd's design may bear no resemblence to the Original. On the other hand, if it does, I would hope he does the right thing and remove it.
 

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Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
 
Somedays you really gotta wonder who your friends are.

After making the post above, I headed off to see what the original Grain Frame looked like. I wrote a letter and returned here to discover a helpful Resident had read my remarks and decided to post a photo of the real Grain Frame.

How nice.

It's our policy to never edit a post, so I deleted the whole thing. Please don't repost another. You guys that love to be rebels and fight should really look into that new Fight Channel.
 

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Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
 
Steve

As being a member of the Inventory Society.
There is nothing wrong with Todds post.

A workable unit for your own use is not copyright infringement.

Start marketing the unit for sale, will have concenquence.
Also it is not a copyright product but an Industrial design product.

You can do a industrial design for the telephone as to how it will look.
But never have the patent for the phone itself.
 

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Posted by Felix Marcano (Member # 1833) on :
 
Mine is pretty much like Todd's. If I were to make another I'd try welding 1/8" & see what happens. Wait doesn't someone have that already? Dave Correll?
 

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Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
 
Steve -

The grain frame I built was largely, but not fully, based on the Grain Fraim.....

When I first thought about buying a Grain Fraim, I researched their brochure, etc and discovered there was (at least at that time) no copyright symbols, nor any indication of patents pending....which I thought was odd at the time.

My dad and I made our own version based upon the basic principle of theirs....although we did change a few things, which to us seemed a bit simpler. So, it is a modified version of what they created.

Is that ethical? Maybe not...I am not completely sure....but I do tend to agree with Stephen's assessment.

This could easily be a topic of huge debate...

The fact is, I built this for my own use - NOT for sale. If I did sell them, I think it would be legal...however, I wouldn't think I would be interested in that.

You only have to change a design a small percentage from another's for it to be legal anyway.

I guess I would ask you these questions:

1. What kind of car do you drive? If it's not a Ford, do you feel bad driving another brand that was inspired from Henry Ford's original idea of a motorcar? Same basic product - different name?

2. How about all the designs for Application Tape contraptions posted on this site? Do they infringe upon the Weber system?

3. Have you ever, really ever...burned someone else's music cd?

4. Even seeing someone else's lettering style, and painting it without asking them could be suspect...

5. It seems premature to cry foul without knowing for certain where the inventor of the Grain Fraim even got his original idea. Who knows? Is it possible he saw someone else's engineered solution and then improved upon it and marketed it? Was it even his original idea? I don't know the answers to that - I'm just posing the questions.

Frankly, I've used mine about 4 times in eleven years....it works alright, but it's kind of a pain in the butt.....I much prefer a routered HDU sign....but I don't think I'll be trying to build my own Multi-Cam anytime soon.

My drawing is no different than if someone just looked at a photo online or their literature and decided to design their own...if you want me to remove it, I will - no problem. Let me know.

[ April 30, 2007, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]
 

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Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
 
I used stainless steel MIG welding wire for both of mine. One is 2x4 and the other is about 3'x8'.The principle behind using stainless steel was on the notion that particles of steel which might become trapped in the HDU, migh rust through later. Not sure that would really happen but, the MIG wire is extremely durable.
The 2x4 unit has done tons of signs and the wire shows no signs of wearing out during my lifetime.

Looks great Todd.
 

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Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
 
I want to attempt to say what's really on my mind without tossing more fuel on the fire. When I make a post here in Letterville, I speak to you all like we are face to face at a live Letterhead Meet.

Letterville is not just another website about signs. It's a Community of People with real names and faces that have been getting together for almost 30 years.

I never knew Henry Ford so it's no problem for me to drive another make. On the other hand I do know a local Chrysler dealer. Back in 1994, we were going through some tough times.

We drove a Chevy minivan at the time. I was in hospital after my second heart attack, when the engine blew up on Barb. She called everyone, but it was Terry the Chrysler guy that towed the van, put in a new engine and told us to take as long as we needed to repay him. It took 5 years! Guess what? I don't care what he sells. Thats where we get our cars.

So what's the point?

We have a group of people in our Community called Merchants. Their advertising dollars help keep us keep this place going. Our live meets are better because of their participation.

To be honest, there was a time in my signshop days when I might have had a chip on my shoulder towards Suppliers. When the going gets tough, it's easy to blame everyone but yourself. I had a bad attitude towards Suppliers.

Over the years, we have come to know many of our Merchants personally. There are some that are here for far more than just selling products. They participate on this Forum, attend our meets and really care. They are real people like Terry the Chrysler guy.

That's why I can't help wince everytime I see one of these money saving tips. I felt the same when I read the Gemini post. It's hard to sit back and watch friends, no matter who or what they do, be denied income or treated badly.

I doubt if any of this will make much difference. These sort of issues only really hit home when someone underbids YOU, shops YOUR sign design around, or borrows YOUR idea. Then it's a different story.

And yes Todd. I too am a cheap bastard. This week we are trying to save on expensive toilet paper by using those plastic grocery bags you get for free. We're slippin and sliddin but saving money.
 

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Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
 

quote:

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This week we are trying to save on expensive toilet paper by using those plastic grocery bags you get for free. We're slippin and sliddin but saving money.

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I don't know about Canada, but in the US, they always ask if we want Paper or Plastic in the checkout lane. Paper would probably be a better choice.

I understand your point Steve...and respect your stance on this. I don't think it's as much being a "cheap bastard" as you put it, as it is a mix of "I can do that..." I'd be lying if I didn't say the thought of saving money while making it wasn't part of the motivation....the same as it is for the guy that wants to make his own application tape dispenser....but I think the "I think I can make this" definately has something to do with it.

In any case, like Stephen stated...there's rarely going to be a monopoly on any idea that can legally hold water if someone else decides to enter the game.

That's why there's 20 competing brands of toilet paper on the shelf at the grocery store to choose from. They all do the same thing.

But you definately have a point worth considering...
 

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Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
 
Let myself be clear on this issue..

You can persue a new design of an existing patent of any form.

BUT!
It has to pass with the patent holder first!
They have first legal rights to the copyright.

Say I invented the Pencil.....

And I said the only colour on the cover is Yellow.
Nothing but!!!!!

I will and can sue your sorry 'Azz' if you deside to change it.

It is still a industrial design and you need permission to work with it or on it!

Now on the other hand if you like to modify a home grown project for yourself then.........
"HELP YOURSELF!"

Ideas are always generated on this forum.
Isn't that what we do best?
 

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Posted by Michael R. Bendel (Member # 5847) on :
 
Without "Grainframes" creative original design, I don't think anyone would have a similar concept. So yes, it is copied.

It's very similar to another company taking your design & changing a letter. I know that would P** me off.

I have bought 3 "Grainframes" & think the cost is legit.

We all have made our own "copies" of useful products, but I'm with Steve here... Probably shouldn't promote or post your alternative home made design here.
 

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Posted by Clinton Cooper (Member # 6802) on :
 
Just a quick note people, This post mentions the grain frame so many times, this bullboard now rates as the top search for grain frames on google...
 

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Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
 

quote:

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Without "Grainframes" creative original design, I don't think anyone would have a similar concept. So yes, it is copied.

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I disagree....do you really think that's true?!

Sandblasting stencils in all likelyhood were used far earlier than the invention of the grain frame.

And I wouldn't be surprised at all if some sign guy, somewhere had been using his own home-made version of that similar idea before it was ever marketed....wouldn't surprise me one bit.

I'd be more concerned if you have been bandying about pictures of application tape dispensers which would be the same thing, really as this Grain Frame debate.....in light of the fact that WeberMade is ACTUALLY a merchant here.

And by the way, I own a WeberMade dispenser.


How about this....?


[ May 02, 2007, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]
 

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Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
 
I guess I just old fashioned. When I first saw the drawing, I went and looked at the real deal. In my opinion, this is an exact copy. For a number of reasons, that really bothered me.

We're a Community so I immediately wrote a letter to my friend Todd explaining why I was concerned and asking him to remove it.

I don't like messing with your posts. It's extra tough when it's someone who is a friend. Ask Si. He knows.

Most, like Si, will give me an earful via phone or email, but they respect us enough to do what we request. I'm a bit of a rebel myself. I don't always like doing what I am asked, but when I'm in someone elses place, I follow their rules.

I was a bit shocked when I discovered the drawing still here 24 hours after writing the letter. Instead of an email back, there are 2 additional posts, both arguing with me in our own Forum.

Hosting a meet, as well as running a business, is not all fun. Our first duty is to do everything we can to ensure everyone is having a good time. We're here to learn as much as possible from each other, and do out own special part to encourage new users to get out to their first live Letterhead meet.

Behind the scenes, the host is also responsible to raise the money necessary to cover the costs involved in keeping this online meet going. A smart business guy might go out and get himself a couple of big sponsors to pick up the cost. Sounds simple enough, but he who pays makes the rules. Residents and Merchants help pay for all this, but 2 old former sign shop owners, and fanatical Letterheads run the place.

So there you have it. Behind this website are 2 real people just trying to have a good time with other real Letterheads and make a living in the process. I've been offered opportunities to represent various suppliers, but I see that as a conflict of interest. This is all we do to put food on the table.

One final note. Much of the contraversy over this post took place at 5am my time 2 days ago. Doug Allen and I had a conversation via IM concerning a photo of a real Grain Frame he had posted, and I chose to delete. As a result, he decided he no longer wants to play here. We hate to see him go, but it was his choice.

Todd. Will you please honor my request, without all the drama of a public debate, and remove that drawing?

[ May 02, 2007, 12:59 PM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
 

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Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
 
You can remove my post if you want, Steve.
 

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Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :
 
A few facts.

Grain Fraim googled puts Letterville in the third spot.

Todds picture is not an exact replica of a real Grain Fraim. The real deal does not wrap wire round and round. It goes around a groove at one end, then the wire goes through a hole at the other end and the two wire ends are twisted. So every 2 wires in the fraim are a seperate wire from the rest. A machine does this to give each set of wires identicle tension.

The originator of the Grain Fraim went through 14 prototypes before settling on the current model. The inventor is a very cool guy who recently sold his sign shop and opend a 3D sign school in Wisconsin. He knows a ton about HDU, is a very good designer and fabricator.

He knew that a hand strung frame can produce more realistic looking grain, but to be cost effective for production, a machine had to be able to string the wires, so there was a trade off.

I asked Mike (the inventor) about people making their own. He didn't seem like he was losing any sleep over it. He put it to me this way. By the time you figure in material cost, all the time to find the materials, your time to build it, AND lost income from making a fraim instead of a sign, the cost is probably higher to make your own. Maybe not if you're set up for welding, but for the rest of us, definatly.

I am not sorry for a minute that I bought one. I dropped it once and stretched some of the wires so now I need it restrung. I'll probably try doint it myself to see if I can get the look I want, but my original GF is well built and will last through my career.
 

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Posted by Ricky Jackson (Member # 5082) on :
 
I have a couple of super products that I invented. We've been using them for over 10 years and they've saved us hundreds of man hours. I know how sign people think "I can do that" and that's the reason I haven't marketed it. They are simple things and easy to duplicate but I'm not giving them away. I even made one and packaged it up and shipped it to one of my buds here but he's never even installed it; he would lose 3.5" off the length of his table. I had even bought the materials for the other work aid and was in the process of making him some but since he hasn't installed the first thing I think I'll have to pass. I guess I'm just whining. I volunteered to make it and send it to him and he didn't ask for it so I guess it was a bad call on my part.

That reminds me... I drove by another sign shop at lunchtime and saw one of my logo designs being put on a vehicle. That's gonna cost him.
 

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Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 
I received an email inquiry related to this thread.
I decided to make my reply public. It is quite similar to Dave Sherby's observations, along with my inclusion of a letterville ethics comment on top of manufacturing ethics.
This was the inquiry:

quote:

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Your ethical take on copying/making your own grain frame

some insinuate that it is unethical for anyone to build their own grain frame for their own use - not for sale and post the pics on the website....

I can sort of see their side on this.... but I'm not sure I fully agree it's unethical to engineer and build your own for your own use.

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quote:

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As for your question, I have responses to 2 different points of ethics.

1.) Regarding posting a diagram
I think it is perfectly fine to do that. I also think if Steve wants it removed voluntarily, the ethical thing is for that person to remove it.

2.) Building one for your own use is fine IMO. Not always the most business-savvy solution, but sometimes it would make more sense then others from a business standpoint... and like most things in life & business... there is more to it then the numbers, so even if you use it once a year & spent time making it that could have been spent making a sign worth twice the price of the original... (this is a hypothetical point here) ...it would still make sense for a DIY'r (like myself) if it didn't really interfere with business in the big picture.

In other words, to do everything yourself would not be the best business decision... but like a survivalist or a homesteader... for some folks that is what makes them happy. I think we all find our own balance. As far as ethics, I think making it AND sharing the plans are both absolutely fine.

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On a side note, I'm extremely disheartened at Steve's comments with my name in them.
You are purposefully misrepresenting our communications, leaving out relevant facts & projecting your own assumptions, or wishes onto me.
I'm curious how you arrived at this deduction that "I don't want to play there anymore" ?
simply from the fact that I ended our IM swapping with one that just said "bye" and then proceeded to change my "occupation" in my profile to "troublemaker" and then logged out?

You have the nerve to call out others for Drama?? Posting what you posted about me is your own love for drama Steve! You always talk about human nature & the desire to slow down to gawk at train wrecks. I have been impressed with your mayoring skills on many many occasions, & have told you many times about my respect and appreciation for you, as recently as our IM's 2 days ago. But... compliments aside... you too are human & todays bit of drama bait is working I guess, because her I am again... I suppose you only halfheartedly wanted me gone when you insulted me the other night & now tell everyone "I've left" !

What utter bullscat brother! I'm ashamed of you Steve. You just couldn't leave me the hell out of your drama desires on this thread.? Whatever the hell made it wrong to post a GF pic on here after you wondered out loud they looked like is fine by me. Treating me like it was an intentional rebellious act makes no sense to me whatsoever. I guess I'm just too blind to see why that was a problem, but I was fine to leave it where you left it... deleted. But you wanted some more drama mileage I guess huh Steve.
 

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Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
 
Todd, I'm reporting you to PETA for impaling that bird....
 

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Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
 
I like the old wire framed mattress frames myself.
The ones with lots of bouce on them!
 

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Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
 
Steve - no problem...in fact I did try and remove the picture but I got a pop up that told me the time I had to edit the picture had expired??!!

I will delete it from my Photobucket where it is linked and hopefully that will "fry" that bird.

I still feel I did nothing wrong, neither in posting the pic or making it myself.

Dave Sherby is correct that my design does differ just as he describes it. Along with a few other elements that I had to do differently because of my lack of automation. And again, yes - It was the only one ever made - and I use it for myself.

I'll quit the "drama" over this.... but I still wonder why this is such a hot button topic anyway - especially when we have a real-life Merchant here (WeberMade) that sells a product that people post home-made designs of on a fairly regular basis. Seems like that would draw more of your ire than this.

I personally don't think that's wrong either... but just wondering why it gets a pass if this post bothered you, Steve?

Also - just wanted clarify that I never received a "letter" from you Steve. I'm assuming you must have meant your post listed above?

Thanks all, I really meant no harm.... Have a great day everyone....be successful in all you do.

[ May 02, 2007, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]
 

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Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
 
P.S. Jon - yeah, that bird does look to have a "sore one" doesn't he? LOL.
 

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Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
 
I have a difficult time trying to put my thoughts into words at times. Doug's reply made me realize something was being lost in our communication. I've called him and we'll continue to talk.

Here's another way to look at this thing.

I am a fulltime webmaster these days. My sign maker occupation ended back in 1994, but I like to think I can still design and build a sign as good as 90% of you guys and gals. What if I decided to save a few bucks, or make a few extra bucks, by offering YOUR customers a better price?

Imagine this scenereo. I contact people that have a sign business in YOUR town. We already know that many shops are willing to work for nothing, so it should not be hard to locate someone who will build my designs at a very cheap price. My Dad might even want to help me. It would be a great Father/Son project.

Yes, I'm aware it may cost YOU some income, but who cares? Look at all the same "facts" Doug, Stephen, and Todd have talked about in their posts. There's nothing illegal about this idea. We could sure use the extra income on the side. A little something for the extras in life.

The idea is great except for one thing. I would be taking money from some of your pockets. My Letterhead days would also be over. I wonder what the posts would read like if someone screwed with your income, and advertised the fact in places YOUR customers hangout?

Stop worrying. I don't have the energy or the desire these days. Letterville makes it's income from by selling inexpensive ads to a volume of Merchants. It's not enough that we are required to do special favors for anyone, but it almost pays the bills.

John Webber is a personal friend. He also makes signs. I haven't made a bigdeal of this stuff in the past, but you can bet I think of him everytime I see one of our cost saving, cheapass, inventions. I am amazed, but very grateful when he renews every year.

Just today I got a copy of an e-mail. It says that most of us in Letterville are fools and don't know the first thing about our business. Several company reps are scared silly to post here out of fear. We know our users go thru all sorts of OneShot, yet the reps are advised not to post here. What a lose for all of us!

I'm always getting accussed of twisting words. Sometimes I get called a lier. I've been compared to Jim Jones, Hitler and even George Bush. And that's just from Residents.

Here's the facts. We are available to each and everyone of you 24/7/365 days a year. You do not stop being our users when we close the door at 6pm. When I do lose my cool and make a post like this, I do so knowing the facts. I have every e-mail going back to 1995. If I need to dig up an old post, Doug will help.

Sorry Doug. I just couldn't resist. BTW...I did our whole exchange the other night with a grin on my face. If I insulted you, it wasn't intended as such. What did I say? Wait! Let's discuss it on the phone.

I don't want anyone to leave Letterville. Everyonce an a while, I still get hatemail from a former friend I had to ban. We still feel bad about that and wish him all the best, but you cannot enjoy yourself when a guest is stirring everyone or trying to start a fight with everyone.

Did I manage to put my foot in my mouth again? Bet I get at least 2 nasty letters from former fans.

Almost forgot Dave. Mike, the inventor, did e-mail me and he wasn't happy. I wrote him back but haven't had a response yet.

[ May 02, 2007, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
 

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Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
 
Steve - I understand your point...I'm not sure it's apples-and-apples.

My blasting frame is different from Thee Grain Fraim. Pretty similar, but not a complete dupe.

So, if a customer told me and ten other sign guys he's looking for a sign with certain defined characteristics - we're all going to have some similarities. Does that mean I get pi$$ed off and cry foul and complain about losing the sale ? No.

The fact is, is that Mr. Grain Fraim didn't lose a sale to me because I built my own or because I showed anyone else how I constructed my blasting frame. Because, I wouldn't have bought one from him anyway...and I doubt anyone else would have that was interested in putting the time and effort into building their own.

At the time I built mine, I had a lot of time on my hands.... and blasting signs was never going to be a huge part of what I did. I've blasted exactly 4 signs since making that contraption about nine years ago. Exactly one of them was a paying job...the others were for friends.

quote:

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I wonder what the posts would read like if someone screwed with your income, and advertised the fact in places YOUR customers hangout?

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quote:

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The bottom "hold down" is cool. Do you have trouble with it sticking too quickly near the holder on 7-8' lengths?

I can see you measuring & cutting the mop to pieces when someone walks in. Funny.

We all have done it & BTW, you will buy a new mop before you replace that handle.

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quote:

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Without "Grainframes" creative original design, I don't think anyone would have a similar concept. So yes, it is copied.

It's very similar to another company taking your design & changing a letter. I know that would P** me off.

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