I'm a newbie at doing vinyl graphics. I've talked my neighbor into letting me get my feet wet doing a few of his trucks with a new logo and nicer graphics for $100/truck. IMHO we both win cuz his trucks look better and I get paid to learn. So far I have done 3 trucks.
Here's why I'm posting:
My first truck didn't go as smooothly as I would have liked. Getting the old graphics off was very time consuming and getting the old adhesive off was mind boggling. It took me I think 3 hours to clean ONE truck. Today I removed TWO trucks' worth of lettering in just over an hour. What made the difference? One thing was a tiny bit of experience. Getting the letters off was a lot easier. The main thing, however, was Rapid Remover. I read about it on this forum and thought "yeah, right!" I saw the video on the net and thought "yeah, right!" I just bought some and used it and couldn't wait to get home and post this. Let my voice join the chorus singing the praises of this outstanding product. I forgot what the guy's name is that sells it, but I hope he sees this post. That stuff is money in a bottle. I mean, jeez, the adhesive almost FELL off the trucks!
Thanks.
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Another believer!!! Roger will be happy.
I never leave the shop without Rapid Remover and Rapid Tac.
Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :
Add Rapid Prep and Rapid Tac 2 to the mix as well and you have a complete set. I carry a gallon each in my truck of all of the products at all times.
Posted by Mike Normington (Member # 7520) on :
Here's a question: What's the difference between Rapid Tac and Tac 2? The guy at my supply shop didn't really know. I see him using tac 2 on the videos but really I need to know why there are 2 formulas?
BTW, when the guy at the shop tried to sell me rapid tac the first time I thought "application fluid? Yeah, right!" all I need is soap and water. Well, wrong again! Really I'm sounding like an ad, aren't I? Fact is I'm just blown away.
Posted by goddinfla (Member # 1502) on :
Be careful with that stuff. OP spilled some on his lap and is now Known as Old Lady Paint. Ray Rheaume disappeared completely.
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Thanks Mike, I like it when people "get it", my products work as well or better then I say (if you follow instructions).
The diff. between R.T. and R.T.II; Rapid Tac was designed for "premium cast" 20 years ago,though it will work on other films, just not as well as TacII.
Rapid TacII was designed for EVERYTHING else, its more agressive so it will work better in the cold and especially good for glass apps. Don't use R.T.II on premium cast on a hot day !
And remember to CLEAN only with either R.T. or R.T.II !
Thanks again Mike! Roger Bailey
Posted by Ken Holden (Member # 5653) on :
I like Roger's remover also. Mike, did you use a heat gun?
Ken
Posted by Ian Stewart-Koster (Member # 3500) on :
I'm glad the RR worked so well, but $100 a truck...even for the experience...is not good for anyone, let alone the sign business.
I'd suggest doing it for a decent amount of money, or free, but not an inbetween amount.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
I agree with Ian.
$100, is too cheap. Your neighbor has a business, and now that he is used to getting his trucks done for $100 - he's not going to want to pay the $300+ it's really worth - even after you no longer consider yourself a "newbie."
I'd practice on your own stuff, and charge what this business demands on others.
I too like the Rapid Remover. I personally see no use for the other stuff - but that's personal preference. Soap and water works for me on the rare occassion I even need a wet method....but it's a good product for those that like it ready-made.
Posted by Santo (Member # 411) on :
Ian and Todd, you guys must be the new Karknacs, with no details at all about the job, both came up with the same answer.
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Gotta agree with Santo. The trucks could have entailed 3" tall lettering, 15" long. If you can get $300 for that, let's all bow down to the Sign Gods. Posted by Nevman (Member # 332) on :
"a new logo and nicer graphics"
It took me I think 3 hours to clean ONE truck
I dunno - to me that's a lot of work for a hundred bux.
What's a Karknacs?
Posted by John Lennig (Member # 2455) on :
Johnny Carson...the Great Carnac sp?
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Ok...where's my tazer....easy boys.
quote:a new logo and nicer graphics for $100/truck
I assume that developing a new logo and applying "nicer" graphics means more than 1/4" white vinyl lettering.
That seems descriptive enough for me. Just trying to support good wages for the industry. Have a good one.
[ April 16, 2007, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Ah yer right, been a couple days since reading the details in the first post and forgot about them.
*Edit*
PS, I like Rapid Remover too... just don't let it get in your eyes! Somehow I had one of the red plastic stoppers shoot down inside a new bottle while trying to pop it out and ended up getting a whole face full of Remover. Eyes blinded and the rest of my face pretty much numb. LOL. Repeatedly dunking my head into fresh water to flush it all out worked fine though.
[ April 16, 2007, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: Mike Pipes ]
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
Case in point about the prices deal.
I just quoted a walldog job. 20 feet up. Entails covering the old lettering with background paint to match the building color. Then place new 6 ft x 22 ft graphic and lettering.
Was told I was three times higher than the last quote. WTF? The other dude quted in the middle three figures? and has to work on a ladder? Come to find out the other dude is a newbie who worked the last 2 years as a vinyl jocky learning the "industry" and is holding the same thoughts about getting PAID TO LEARN.
The customer just about laughed me out of the building. The other newbie has just ruined the income and market for how many other experienced and fully qualified brushmen. He set a bench mark so low that others now hate his guts.
Posted by Santo (Member # 411) on :
There is no doubt that this is the #1 problem presented by novice competition. I'm sure that you would much rather see an established sign vendor become competion, rather than a newbie who will just repeat the last cycle of price destabalization. As far as I'm concerned, every plotter should come with a warning label, that states Warning This could be hazardous to your health. Don't work for less than you are worth.
Now the truth is you hijacked the post, and you diminished the feedback to a reputable and generous merchant.
[ April 16, 2007, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: Santo ]
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
quote:Now the truth is you hijacked the post, and you diminished the feedback to a reputable and generous merchant.
In regards to the "hijacking": if by "you" you mean me....I must respectfully disagree.
I supported his conclusion of the merits of Rapid Remover....and as a "newbie" wanted to make him aware that giving away his craft for nothing to a neighbor's business as a learning experience, might not be the best way to start a business. Much the same advice you just gave.
We've all seen tons of posts cautioning against leaving money on the table as well as the devaluation of the sign trade because of cheap pricing.
The sad truth is, his neighbor was happy with the new graphics Mike created - 3 trucks and $300 later could probably have been 3 trucks and $900+ later.
No offense Mike - I'm happy to hear that you're figuring out these things and apparantly doing work that is viewed as superior to what the guy had done before.
My only point is that even as a newbie, you should learn to charge the going rate. It's more money in your pocket and it helps support the sign trade as a valuable vocation for those in it now and those that come after you.
Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
Mike,
Rattlesnake venom is no fun in the eyes, either. Maybe I should have used Rapid Remover to get it out. It couldn't have hurt any less! Long story.
Speaking of hijacking posts...
P.S. OK, kinda, sorta back on some of the subject at hand.
Welcome to Letterville, Mike. I don't know what the lettering on these trucks entailed so I am speaking in generalities.
If, as a newbie, it takes you three times as long to do something as a veteran, and you are going to stay at it until it looks like a veteran did the job, there's no need to reduce your price. You are still giving the customer the same value.
Maybe the veteran makes $45 per hour doing it. Wouldn't you rather learn at fifteen dollars an hour than five? If you cut your prices too much, you won't survive in the business long enough to become the veteran.
Edited 'cause some of us veterans can't proofread too well. Must be the rattlesnake venom.
[ April 16, 2007, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: David Harding ]
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
David, believe me and Mike, R.R. in the eyes is no fun, it burns (like most things that shouldn't be in the eyes) but flushes out well with water.
Wear eye protection with any product containing chemicals (even spraying water in the eyes can produce a level of discomfort) be carefull.
Roger
Posted by Randy Campbell (Member # 2675) on :
Roger I too used r&r as well as application fluid and was extreemly happy.
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Thank you Randy, I like makeing people happy !
Now if you have yet to watch them, pick up some tips about the products and how to BEST use them.
Roger
Posted by Mike Normington (Member # 7520) on :
Sorry it took me so long to try and reply to the various posts on this thread. That said, here goes...
Oh, and one more thing, the products smell good too. I like that. Anyway...
I do realize that I am selling the service cheaply and I kinda knew a few replies would come up about it ruining the market. I agree but I did it anyway. The last guy he had do his trucks did it for $40. I'm taking his word for this because I know him a long time. If you saw the work, you would probably believe him too. It pretty much sucked. So I really had to talk him up to $100 which I didn't feel comfortable doing (I know, MY problem) but I did it and because I did that and he's my friend I did an extra fine job for him. I really wish I could post pics on here to illustrate but I can't and I don't have a server to put them on. Like I said I did the the second two trucks in half the time it took me to do the first one. That was awesome for me.
I forgot what else I was going to reply to so I'm going to post this and begin again on another post if I need to.
Thanks for all the great replies. This board is pretty cool!
Posted by Mike Normington (Member # 7520) on :
Ok here's some specifics about what the job looks like:
About 13" high by about 24" wide
Two colors white or black and whatever color I think goes good with his truck. They are all different colors.
I also remove the old graphics which I am also getting really good at. In reply to one post asking about a heat gun, I use one to help get a corner up and just pull the rest of it off. It seems easier that way so far and most of the adhesive comes off too. Then rapid remover - man I love that stuff!
For the record I told him don't tell people he refers me to what I charged him. I just want to show it off. We'll see how well that works out.
And Roger - what is "Cast Vinyl".
And I got some Tac II to try out even though the TAC worked fine for me.
I think that's it.
Thanks again.
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Mike, "cast premium film" is 2to3 mils thick (very thin) has less memory then calandered or other films, usually has a higher quality adhesive with good initial bond even wet with Rapid Tac 1, use Rapid TacII with all other films, and especially in cold (down to the 20's) even on glass you will clean with it, spray it wet, lay and squeegee, pull wet trans tape in just 90 seconds !
Roger
Posted by Mike Normington (Member # 7520) on :
Thanks, Roger!
Posted by Mike O'Neill (Member # 470) on :
quote: The last guy he had do his trucks did it for $40.
Run away Jonsey .... run away....
Even in a cheap ... northern canadian market ... the job as described would be $225 (min) per truck, plus (min) $100 artwork, plus removal at $55 per hour (hourly rate only, never quoted)
... First rule of being in business is staying in business...
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
quote:... First rule of being in business is staying in business...
I like that Mike....kinda says it all.
Posted by Mike Normington (Member # 7520) on :
I mostly do airbrushing. I just got a vinyl cutter to cut out stencils for different things. So...
I deleted the tirade on people hounding me about charging too little (one person in particular - you know who you are). That said, I'll charge what I want. If you don't like it, just wait a while and I'll be out of business. Then you won't have to worry about it, will you? GREAT! I feel better.
[ April 19, 2007, 09:55 PM: Message edited by: Mike Normington ]
Posted by Jason Davie (Member # 2172) on :
These are the attitudes that ruin the business...
Posted by Mike Normington (Member # 7520) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Davie: These are the attitudes that ruin the business...
I just don't feel that I should sit back and be bullied by forum veterans. Do you feel the business is being ruined? That's a shame.
Actually, could you elaborate on what you meant when you said that? It's a rather vague statement - like something a politician would say.
[ April 19, 2007, 10:03 PM: Message edited by: Mike Normington ]
Posted by Joe Sciury (Member # 4653) on :
Ok Mike, I'll play. You didn't charge enough. Really though, your second mistake, after your first mistake (not charging enough) was telling the veteran bullies what you charged....LOL
BTW.....your third mistake: You didn't buy a Mac. Posted by Jason Davie (Member # 2172) on :
Lets take tha value of our work right to the bottom
10 dollar truck doors at my place tomorrow get 'um while there hot!!
Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
Mike, Joe hit it on the head. Whenever you mention your prices here, double them at least.... you may have been a little low, but not necessarily criminally underpriced...
I charge as much as I possibly can... and on things like basic truck or van lettering there is NO WAY I can charge as much as these guys say they get here around the Pensacola area... There are 61 sign shops listed in the Pensacola phone book and I bet there are 30 of them that would do it for 1/2 to 3/4 what these guys say they get.
If they have their logo done, and are already getting it from another shop around here, I NEVER get the work when they call me for a quote. I'm always too high, and like I said, I don't charge what most say they get here...
I do quite a bit of truck and van lettering, but it is for a collection of customers I've been serving for 4-10 years. Most of these don't ask prices. I do get new vehicle lettering customers from referrals from these people, but that's about it...
So price your work so you can get a few jobs and get your feet wet. Doing a few trucks for a $100 a truck while you are drumming up some work is not going to kill anyone or put the sign shops out of business. Especially if it is multiple trucks for the same company where you can do several at a time. The low prices around here are not from NEWBIES ruining the market. It's from lots of shops competing for the same work.
One thing to remember is to add in for things like logo design, logo recreation, vinyl removal, installation, and other time-consuming things so that you don't end up spending a bunch of time for nothing... and that will make the resulting price look a little better.
And hey, Welcome to Letterville.
(((Thanks a lot Mike, now the veterans are gunna line me up for the noose along with ya...)))
[ April 19, 2007, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: Jon Jantz ]
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
If there's one lesson I have learned from paying attention to the way many businesses operate, whether it's the local sign shops, or the other sign shops also in my niche jetski market (and let me tell you it's a seriously tight niche) or just any other business in my own town, it's that the highest priced businesses have absolutely NO SHORTAGE of work whatsoever. They're always slammed and turning work away or booking it months ahead of schedule.
How can this be when there are so many other businesses out there charging less?
Well, they focus on themselves, improving their product, improving their service and offering what the other places can not. Most of the time around here, it comes down to the level of service. We live in a society of horrid service and flakey people where just showing up, or answering/returning a phone call or email is the deciding factor of whether or not you get the job! That's easy pickin's.
Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
Hiya Mike N and welcome aboard. Don't take the other comments personally, these vetrans speak from experience, when they made same mistakes you'll probably make. Mike P brings up a valid point about serving yourself first. If you don't, you won't be around long enough to build a good reputation and take care of your clients. To get you on the path of proper pricing, I would suggest investing in one or more of the pricing guides available from Signcraft.com and Profit Watch, which is a free download from Estimate Software. Finally, another way to look at the value of vehicle graphics or signage is to consider it advertising and compare the cost to other methods of advertising. When you look at the cost of truck lettering at even $1,000, it's still a bargain and more effective than just about any other form of advertising available.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
When you are still at the learning stage, customers should not be expected to pay pro prices. When the time comes to go fulltime, it's essential you go thru the following.
The real answer here needs to be based on your hourly rate. Do you know what that actually is? Have you done the math?
Each of us have different needs, but we all have to generate a certain amount of income to pay the bills. What do you need to make after taxes in order to run your home and provide for your dependents? Here in Canada, that figure is easily over $50,000 for an average Family.
Add up what it takes to run your life and use this figure as a starting point! Beware, if you are honest, you might be in for a shock.
Now add up all your shop expenses. Don't forget to include insurance, office supplies and misc, things. Allow for expenses that are not fixed such as fuel costs.
Now add in a profit. As a small business owner, your goal is to generate a profit in addition to your take home pay. I'm not certain what that profit should be. I'm sure others who are following the above can offer suggestions.
The goal is to arrive at a figure representing what you need to make a year in order to reach your goals. Fall short of this figure and you will need to look elsewhere for the income. Can you say remortgage? I said it way too many times.
Now figure out how many hours you can honestly work in order to generate this income. Time spent on the phone, making sales calls, or doing the numerous other tasks required are going to eat up 20-30% of your time. You can easily work 60-80 hours a week to have 40 billable hours. Sound familiar?
When and if you finally take the time to honestly calculate your hourly rate, you are going to discover it may well be as high as $100 an hour. Pretty scarey eh? What a wake up call!
You may have other options. Your spouse might be Teacher, Nurse, or have a nice Government job that provides and extra 60-80 grand a year plus benefits. That's going to take some of the pressure off. Additional income from other sources will take some of pressure off, but most of us are going to have to depend on what our business generates.
This is a long post, but this is the post I want to write everytime I see one of us asking if we are charging enough. The real truth is that what others charge is irrelevent. Your price has to be based on all the above. The figures don't lie!
There are some good articles on the SignCraft website. I'll be back with some links.
SignCraft has pdf. docs available that cover many of their feature articles over the years. Read them online or download. It's your choice.
This link takes you to the Past Features page. Look under pricing.
quote:Originally posted by Joe Sciury: Ok Mike, I'll play. You didn't charge enough. Really though, your second mistake, after your first mistake (not charging enough) was telling the veteran bullies what you charged....LOL
BTW.....your third mistake: You didn't buy a Mac.
On the second mistake I agree, third one - no way! First one not a mistake. I had nothing before this to show people portfoliowise and now I do. Like I said, it was a win/win as far as I am concerned.
Todd mentioned that I should practice on something I forgot how he put it but basically pi$$ in the wind instead of making money to do it. I prefer at least breaking even to learn and I did better than that.
[ April 20, 2007, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: Mike Normington ]
Posted by Mike Normington (Member # 7520) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jason Davie: Lets take tha value of our work right to the bottom
10 dollar truck doors at my place tomorrow get 'um while there hot!!
Another unhelpful, unintelligent bit of sarcasm from the forum sniper. Nice work, Jason! Keep 'em coming!
Posted by Mike Normington (Member # 7520) on :
There were several helpful and rather insightful replies in this thread to my original post and I would like to thank those of you who posted them. This is the best forum I have found for bouncing around ideas about this sort of thing. I have learned a lot here.
I found out how to get pics on here! here's a pic of the design I made for the guy. Thanks Todd.
[ April 20, 2007, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: Mike Normington ]
Posted by Jason Davie (Member # 2172) on :
Mike I'm not trying to be unintelligent or sarcastic..All I'm saying is if we give away our work then it is expected of us and our work is not worth anything...
your lettering looks good..
I would have dropped all the dotcrap to the bottom of the door but that doesnt make it right thats just what i would have done..and carriers needs a little more contrast with the GD looks good though
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Great work Mike, and don't pay any attention to the "sign policy, method, price police" they exist on every site, and know exactally how everyone should run they're biz. Amazing how they get any work done ??/food for thought.
Roger
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
Welcome to Letterville Mike. On the occasions I see fit to cut back on profit a little in order to try a new technique, pad my portfolio or upsell a job, I make sure that I make it clear to the client that this is what is happening. I was told once to charge the full amount and discount it on the invoice and I always do that now. This does a couple of things, first it makes the customer aware of the value of the work and it also serves as a reference down the road to what I felt the value of the job was at the time. Don't get too upset with the veterans for their reactions. The same lessons have to be learned by almost every person that starts out in the trade. Read Steve's post over a couple of times there is some essential information in it. When you stop and think about it in our trade we probably have to learn way more than a plumber or an electrician, our expenses are higher, we require more equipment and more real estate and our learning curve in ongoing. So why shouldn't we be making what they do? It's hard to explain to a client why someone else is willing to do the job for so much less. Ultimately we should be making a decent living doing what we do. That being said, I have to agree with the sentiment that it is the cut throat competition that knocks the bottom out of the market not the newbies. I don't think there is anything wrong at all with discounting something if you are in the learning stages. Your work may not be as polished as a veterans and it will buy you a little leeway for imperfection. Just don't allow it to become a habit and make sure you raise your prices as your experience grows. But like I said, make sure the actual invoice reflects the value of the job.
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