Hi all, I have a potential customer who is wanting a design from me. This is the first time I have been asked to come up with a logo and I'm not doing it for free, even though I will be doing the signs. I have a few questions on this ...
1. Do you charge by hour or by design? I'm thinking of charging by hour with a minimum of 2 hour charge. 2. After a design is agreed on and paid for, does the client have sole rights to that design? 3. I want to draw up a contract and am looking for suggestions or opinions on wording.
Thnx,
Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
The rights to the design are yours until you give any or all of them to the client. Once our clients pay for a logo design, we release all right to them. Some designers would rather give limited rights. I think if you plan to hold back any rights, you need to communicate the hows and whys up front, in the first part of negotations - before the logo is started.
We tell our customers that logos start at about $300 and go up from there. Designing logos by the hour is of no benefit to the designer in my opinion. The faster you get, the less you get paid. I would rather negotiate a flat fee that both parties are comfortable with. If you do the logo in an hour, so much the better for you. The customer still gets a great product at a price they agreed to pay.
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
A logo should have worth beyond just how long it took to design. Don Antonelli is much better qualified to speak on this than me, but I'll give my opinion (so, what's different about that?)
Your logo will be a positive image for your client. If done properly, it will make him more money than it makes you. It will be a constant salesman for his product or service.
With that in mind, your charges should reflect the potential income he will receive from your abilities and not just an hourly wage. As Russ said, as you get better and faster it would be foolish to keep charging less.
We have a set price for logo design, which is a sliding rate determined by how complex the job may be and how much research I will have to do...and also what type of business it is and how the logo will be used. That's a complex way of saying I just pull a figure out of the air, but one that will give me plenty of time to work on the project.
The client is told that he will get two concept ideas for that amount and a second layout combining the best of both original ideas or a completely new idea if they don't like either of the orginal. After that any changes, additions, tweaking and/or nit-picking will have an additional charge of $100 an hour. It is amazing how satisfied the custome will become if they know that their "just a thought" is going to cost them more money.
The client receives a CD with the design in several different type files in both color and gray scale. Up receipt of final payment, the design is theirs to do with whatever they wish.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
This is how NOT to charge for a design/logo. From one of my competitor's website......
quote:The best logos we produce come from your ideas. You may want to search the internet for an image or concept you would like to use; you can even use a combination of different concepts and images. Do you want all capital letters, letters in an arc, block or cursive fonts, one color or several colors? How about an outline around the text or a shadowed effect? Give XXXXXXXX your ideas, and we will make a proof based on the ideas that you provide and our creativeness. Logos generally cost less than $100 to design, and if you don't like what we do, you pay nothing! While some graphic artists charge hundreds or even thousands for a logo concept, XXXXXXXX can create a fantastic, effective logo for your business for a great price. Call or email your ideas to XXXXXX XXXXXXX, our graphic artist, and she can get started on a new logo for your business.
The names were changed to protect a very nice knucklehead who admits to lurking here on occasion.
.
Posted by jake snow (Member # 5889) on :
Glenn, your buddy might be a "very nice knucklehead", but he is also screwing himself and anybody in the biz in your area.
At those prices, I'm not thinking "XXXXXXXX can create a fantastic, effective logo..." at all
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
Glenn's friend is not designing anything - he (or she) is simply putting together what the client chooses. The customer is the designer..."do you want scrolls with that?"
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
1. Charge by what the logo is worth, not the amount of time it took you to design it. The better and faster you get, the more the project is worth but charging by time means you get paid less. In the same respect, if you "charge $100 per hour" and it takes you 60 hours to come up with something for a small local business, no way are they going to pay you $6,000 for it.
2. They only get the rights that you grant them, and remember if you give them ALL the rights that means YOU CANNOT place that work in your portfolio!
If you want to give the client free range yet still be able to use the work in your own portfolio (good idea) the wording will be something like this:
Unlimited non-exclusive use by "Your Company" in all print and electronic media formats, worldwide, for the term of Copyright. Then assign your price to those terms.
Unlimited means as many uses as they wish. Non-exclusive means you get to use the work in your portfolio, and possibly even use the same artwork for some other company, although that's unlikely in a smaller market. "Your Company" is obviously your client. "in all print and electronic media formats" - pretty much what it says there, any printed item, internet use, redistribution of the electronic logo to other service providers (including other sign shops), etc. Worldwide means if they expand into any other country they can use it there too, however you can restrict this use to a specific location, say just the US, then you could recycle the logo for other clients in other countries.
You can also restrict their use to the typical uses a small business needs - business cards, t-shirts, signs, yellow pages, whatever they need. You can also place a time limit on their use if you wish.
Limitations on their license are just a bargaining tool for you to use to get an agreeable price. You can ask the client what their needs are. If they don't plan on running an ad in a national/international magazine, or they don't need TV commercials or can coolies or any other odd use you can think of, you can remove those uses from the contract in order to negotiate a price that's fair for everyone, with the understanding if they need to expand the license at any time, they can with minimal additional expense.
Posted by John Arnott (Member # 215) on :
BJ, Don't make this harder than necessary. Tell your customer xxx$ for the logo. (About 3 hours of your time) Then give them a color print, a black & white simple version, and put both on a disk. As you get better at it, the designs get better and charge more. When they loose the disk, charge another hour of time to burn another. This is very common. You don't have to put it in a contract! Make it simple and take the money! Never show a client a drawing without your terms in fine the print. Something to show the judge! Most all of your customers will want that for their logo.So always do good designs! It works almost all the time.
Posted by BJ Carter (Member # 4679) on :
Thankyou guys for the help.The responses definetly has given me food for thought.
Posted by Dave Draper (Member # 102) on :
We are finding it better that after the customer asks for a design to be made, we ask for a deposit up front. You could ask for the entire amount and set a cap on the price for design work up to a certain level.
You should have some samples of very simple to more complex designs each with project price printed on them.
If they say no, then you just saved yourself a lot of grief.
We find if we don't get the money up front, they may not even come back in, even after you call them and tell them it ready. "Can you e-mail me that file so I can look at it?"
Just FYI
[ April 12, 2007, 07:26 PM: Message edited by: Dave Draper ]
Posted by Chris OBrien (Member # 5409) on :
quote: At those prices, I'm not thinking "XXXXXXXX can create a fantastic, effective logo..." at all
Jake got it absolutely right- I think that by doing logos cheap or free, you are hurting both the client and yourself. Their image will not be as professional and appealing if you are banging it out for free, as opposed to giving it the proper design time if you were to be getting paid for it. Also, if you just throw some quick layout together, no one is going to say "Hey WOW, that logo / truck lettering / sign looks GREAT, where did you get it done?" I can't count the number of times my design process has been hampered by the fact that the company I work at doesn't charge for design time. There's always that pressure to "get it done quick" as opposed to "get it done right"
Posted by Dan Antonelli (Member # 86) on :
Here's a link to our logo contract, for small business with under $1m in sales. You should get something similar, signed before any work is executed.
Mike, note it specifies rights to display the logo in our portfolio.
We also get 2/3rds up front. Keeps them with more skin in the game.
We are raising rates soon, also. Someone once told me if you are too busy, you are not charging enough. We currently have 15 logos in development, last month alone.
Do not penalize yourself for working faster. Any one logo never takes one hour, two hour or ten hours. Each logo has taken me 15 years, and one hour, two hour or ten hours.
And remember, logo design is not a commodity like a sign is.
Posted by BJ Carter (Member # 4679) on :
Thnx again everyone, this is the feedback I was looking for. The responses gives me more confidence and I feel more educated. I want to charge for designing because I feel it will give me a more professional image, also I can't stand the thought that someone else would be using my hard work for nonthing.
[ April 12, 2007, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: BJ Carter ]
Posted by Tim (Member # 1699) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan Antonelli: Do not penalize yourself for working faster. Any one logo never takes one hour, two hour or ten hours. Each logo has taken me 15 years, and one hour, two hour or ten hours.
Perfect! You are the man Dan! You may also replace the word "sign" with "logo" in this phrase. This is exactly what I've thought about the signs I produce, and this phrase conveys what I've wanted to say to the odd client that may have balked at a price based on how little time it may have taken me to produce it.
Very wise words!
Posted by Gerald Lauze' (Member # 6443) on :
Dan,
How mny people balk at that agreement contract? How many read it completely?
Don't get me wrong ..I think it's brilliant
Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
I think as long as the agreement is handed to them in the beginning, they are more likely to respond positively. If they balk, at least you both know it's over without spending any wasted time.
Posted by Dan Antonelli (Member # 86) on :
Gerald-
THe agreement is for their protection as well as ours, as it specifies deliverables. It also 'professionalizes' our service. I've never had one client refuse to sign it, actually. It is introduced roughly around the time we take a deposit, but we tell them upfront (or email them the link) with this info. We do more and more work from web-based leads, so this is sometimes more efficient.
I have no idea if they read it completely. By hitting 'submit', that's all that really matters for me (and my attorney).
Out of 300+ logos, we've be burned about 3 times, roughly. So thats a 1% failure rate. ANd by burned, I mean, the design was stolen, or never finished and we werent able to collect the balance. I can live with that.
Posted by Joe Sciury (Member # 4653) on :
Whenever getting any type of contract/service agreement that is exactly what I tell the customer "The agreement is for their protection as well as ours".
They are normally very receptive, when explained in this way. BJ you've received some great advise, be sure to apply it!
Posted by Jean Shimp (Member # 198) on :
I attended an AIGA seminar (American Institute of Graphic Artists) and one of the speakers was a very talented graphic designer. His logo designs were awesome! When asked how much time he averages in coming up with a logo design his answer was 60 hours!
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