quoted a new subdivision sign bout 3 months ago. leeters were 24", 1/2" thick satin black. very classy and "fit" the wall they were going on.
Rode by 2 days ago and see this giant ass lettering appox 30" or better tall and 1/4" thick. im not knocking who did it but it looked cheap and tacky. depth of a letter makes all the difference at eye level. I rode on, mumbling to myself
1 week ago I did a 2 sided .080 aluminum sign that the customer was to install themselves. it was the typical, "art looks good , do it" and then when you deliver it turns to "well I did not know it was going to look like that, what can you do to fix it?" my answer to this question was simple. Give me back the sign and Ill give you back the check and we will be done with this. You could have heard a pin drop.
i get so sick of this city and its cheapass unsatisfied mentality. and its showing all over the place around here.
crappy materials used for permanent signs
someone lettering things and touching all 4 sides of the substrate
printing companies giving crap away at low dpi
people wrapping stuff and the wraps are falling off after 2 years
is it just here or is there cheap crap going on everywhere.
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Bruce,
It just isn't around you. I put the blame for the downturn in the level of skills in the Craft to the advent of rampant computer use.
Computers have allowed a whole new class of untalented and unqualified schmucks access to a trade that they have absolutely NO business being in.
There is a mentality that is permeating the Craft as well that has people with little or no experience acting like they have all the answers and that the true veterans of the Sign Wars don't know what we are talking about and that the reason we choose certain materials is just to make a couple of extra bucks.
I have seen coroplast used as lit sign faces, calendared vinyl used on vehicles, flat faces instead of pan faces, etc. Rookie misstakes being perpetuated by an endless source of rookies and wannabes that just don't care.
I have seen more people, in the last ten years or so, steal drawings, cheat customers by cutting corners, and generally act in illegal, unethical and immoral ways that would make the Devil himself cringe.... or maybe not.
Hey, what do I know? I am just one of those poor businessman sign guys who used to own a shop for 20 plus years who had to go get a job. Dang. Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Bruce,
It's world wide, get used to it, rise above it or get out. I do hope your attitude with your customers is different than you share here. If not you're doing more hurt on your business than any cheap materials are.
Your overall tone in 98% of all your posts is negative, and believe it or not people pick up on that more than you know.
There still are good jobs and people who care about quality out there, if not in your area then maybe it's time to make some changes.
I do hope you take stock of what I wrote and see if there might be some legitimacy to what I am saying here.
[ December 08, 2006, 08:25 AM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
It's pretty much everywhere.
Cause and effect. 15 or 20 years ago, painting jobs were easier to find and market. The technology of vinyl signage was still growing and many customers were unsure about it's longevity. Over the years, as vinyl sign making equipment has both improved and come down in cost, more people have gotten into this line of work and the price wars ensued. Customers have come to perceive vinyl as "cheaper" as a result. To further add to the situation, shops who do good design work with vinyl and charged accordingly struggled against those who had little or no design backround, but could sell a job on low price alone.
Shops looking for a way to cut their prices to win those wars do it three ways... Cut the time on design. Cut the cost of materials. Cut the profit margin. Do all three of these and it forces you to produce low quality products at a faster rate to be profitable.
With so many shops low balling each other down and so many customers looking to spend as little as possible, signs like you described are the result. Some shops still are able to sell a hand lettered or multicolored vinyl job with a good design, but there's still a ton out there who are knocking them out on low cost alone and seldom try to upsell a job. They have the "modern sign shop formula" and aren't going to change it anytime soon.
Rapid
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
It's kind of the same way around here but there are some who still realize the value of good work.
I think the problem is three-fold.
Yes, you have the customers that just want it as cheap as they can get it, settling for stock fonts just typed out and produced and no consideration given to design at all. They don't seem to realize their cheapskate choices also make their businesses look cheap and customers are put off by that look which affects their bottom line too. Anyone that's paid any attention over the last year can see that Target and even Wal Mart of all places is now trying to improve their images with better design in their ads and their own little private label designer housewares and decorations so they can draw a higher class of customer in to spend more money. Target even has their designers in their commercials urging people to choose better design. Target and Wally World commercials now look identical to Old Navy ads.
Of course you have the talentless signmakers putting that garbage out, but those folks have been around since the beginning of signs, period. Nothing new has happened to change that. Technology has only increased the cost of entry, paint is still $3 a can and brushes are dirt cheap.
Now you combine those two - you have cheapskate customers, you have talentless signwannabes - together they're generating this proliferation of plain, boring, ugly signs throughout a community. Combine that with the fact that 99% of the populus has NO IMAGINATION WHATSOEVER and you've got a whole bunch of lemmings who think that boring, typed out fonts and no design are their only options for a sign because that's all they see around them. Since they have no immagination themselves they can not fathom there's even another option - unless it's put right under their noses.
I deal with this all the time. Customers come to me with ideas that are obviously just plain jane stuff and a lot of times I'll pitch something back at them that's really cool yet just as easy if not easier than what they thought they wanted, and they're like "Oh, wow! I didn't even know that was possible! I'd much rather have that!"
You hit their emotions, convince them you're the only game in town where they can get what you can offer, make it cool but still easy enough for you to produce without much extra work so the cost is still reasonable and you got the sale. People are so unimaginative these days it's pathetically easy to impress them.
Posted by Ricky Jackson (Member # 5082) on :
Don't EVEN blame this on technology!! About 15 years ago there was a guy snapping signs in my town that was eating my lunch on prices; I looked like Jessie James (not the mc builder) compared to him. The layouts were nice but they were all casual; the lettering was pretty tight too and had plenty of nice colors. The guy would just not go away either. Finally, after several months, he moved on. Another few months later and I found out his "secret". The lettering enamel had been thinned with gasoline! Yeah, it flowed like a dream from the brush but it broke down in the Georgia sun like a snowman in July. In two years there wasn't a single sign still up that he had done. There are still signs up that I hand lettered over 15 years ago!
Bruce I feel your pain bud; we have whores here too but they come and they go. Every year there are at least 3-4 new "sign companies" in the phone book here and every year we fight the same "we can get it cheaper from Jim Bob's Signs" comments. The only trouble is that Jim Bob always winds up going out of business after a few months. I just had a realtor lady come in a few minutes ago; she brought a price sheet she had printed from the internet. I just told her right up front "We don't compete with internet companies". I'm not crazy about realtors in the first place so I didn't really care if I got her business or not - unless it was on my terms. I wrote up the order after selling her on the benefits of doing business locally.
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
Its funny how I don't run into this problem.
The regular sign market IS trained to think in a Walmart way, to shop by price before quality. But I won't shop that way or do business that way. Its a frame of mind and I believe there still are lots of folks who are in my camp.
Customers who seek me out and come up my drive aren't coming to me for a bargain. They want what I sell. They understand what I produce isn't commonplace or inexpensive. To get to me they have driven past countless other sign shops which produce less expensive signs.
While I admit I have yet to meet a customer with a truly unlimited budget, most I talk to are willing to spend what it takes to get the job done and done my way.... for that's what they came to me for.
The 'secret' to our success is to produce something which no one else does... a niche market. If we were producing ordinary flat vinyl signs we would have to compete in that crowded market place... the last thing I want to do.
We are where we choose to be.
-grampa dan
Posted by Jill Marie Welsh (Member # 1912) on :
I do blame our slow market on cowboys/girls with plotters. It's hard to put on a happy positive face when you know that the prospective customer you talk to today will probably buy their sign from some numbnuts who bought their sign career thru eBay. But I still try to act professionally and hope they can't smell my desparation.
It's sad when 90% of the public goes for cheap over quality. I am trying not to worry so much. Signs are still trickling in, and I still don't have to go back to the hardware store.
Just saw another shop open up on the other main highway here, but I know the guy and he's not a licky-sticky. I'd rather compete with him on a fair playing field than with some of the other "sign makers" around here. There are now 8 shops within a 5-mile radius of me. Go another 4 miles and add 5 more.
I know lots of people on here say to build up your niche, to offer something nobody else can, but that only goes so far. I try to offer good design and good materials, as well as hand-painting. I do try to suggest better ideas to the client but am not opposed to giving them exactly what they want at MY price and cheerfully giving them their stuff in a timely manner.
Just keep plugging away, even if you secretly want to run your lowball competitors over with a steamroller and stick your client's nephew art to their forehead with a nailgun.
Love....Sweet Little Jill
Posted by Mark Stokes (Member # 5351) on :
agree with you jill, you just got keep plugging away. Sure you can create niche markets as Dan has but to get to that niche market you still have to live and if a customer wants to spend so much no matter how kick-ass your layout is what do you do.
Posted by Dave Draper (Member # 102) on :
I had another take on this subject. The views I see expressed above are normal from a certain viewpoint. (like depression)
However, this crappy work output should give someone who does really nice work a feeling of comfort. Someone who has their head on straight would see this trend and focus his business on ONLY upscale work....then sell the @#$% out of it!
Beautiful signwork will sell, and there is a market for it...but it won't come to those who don't "sell" it.
Look at the problem (and you have ) now create your niche creating what they can't, or wont. Rethink everything you do, and rebuild your reputation.
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
We've circled this mountain several times and the same stories keep being told.
Some are about hard times and the slow economy. Others are about niche markets and how good business is going.
This week I've talked to several sign folks on the phone. (Bob Gilliland says that is the reason I never get anything done...and he's probably right). Everyone I talked to was upbeat and had more work than they can handle. Some were building new buildings or in the planning stages. Each was confident about the future and either had just purchased or were about to purchase some new equipment or stock up on some new materials. Just by listening I heard excitement about some new things going on in their area and some new materials they were trying out.
Ironically, these people were in all parts of the country - some in large metropolitan areas, but most were in small towns that were not much more than wide places in the road. Some were old timers like me, but most were young guys that were eagerly paying their dues. None were asking for anything but a chance to compete in the market with the skills they had. And none ever said a negative word about the other sign folks in their area.
What does all this mean? I have no idea.
But since I am one of the older guys on this forum and have been doing this just about as long as anybody but Bill Ridell, I have a few observations.
What is being discussed here is not because of technology, vinyl, or global warming. I was hearing this same discussion when I hung around sign shops as a kid, and then again when I was in college, and again during the times I worked for someone else. It's the same old story with new characters. I really don't think all that much has changed over the last 50 years of observations...other than the tools we use.
People are still people and they will still act like people. No generation has a copyright on jerks. Because of today's technology things happen a little faster than in previous decades and we are bombarded with more information than before (most of which has absolutely no meaning) but the only difference between today's client and those of previous years is that they drive different cars and wear different clothes...and probably live in a much larger home, which they cannot afford.
Crap is certainly being produced today and people accept it as normal, but crap was being produced by the old man that I watched lettering a pickup when I was nine and his business was booming.
If you are doing the very best you can do and you have learned all that you can learn and people are still going to Joe Wino...well, I guess you just need to get into another line of work.
But if you are still learning and the best job you've ever done is still out in the future, don't worry...there will always be someone who wants what you have. No everyone. But I don't want to do all the signs in town...just the good ones.
If all this sounds like a sugar coated gumdrop made up by Pollyanna, well I guess that would be me. It has been my story for almost 50 years and will probably be my story until I go home. It has not made me rich by any stretch of the imigination (at least money wise), but it has been a marvelous ride.
Somewhere along the line we have to determine what our goal is.
Is it to make a lot of money? That's possible in this business (or any other) but you can't have very thin skin. And maybe you have to care a lot more about yourself than you do other people. Maybe not.
Is it to make everyone like you? Hey, you're going to have a rough life no matter what business you're in...and I'll let you in on a little secret - not everyone is ever going to like you.
Is is to create something that fills you up and makes others look at you strangely? Hey, join the ranks of artists and artisians around the world who look at a blank canvas, page, stage, or signboard (or anything just sitting there) and can't wait to turn it into something that is in their head and heart than no one has seen before.
Are the jerks getting to you? Yep, they are out there. But they are in the next town or state or country...just like they are in your town. And ten or twenty years from now they will still be there - probably in abundance.
Maybe our goal should be not to be one of them.
Posted by Jill Marie Welsh (Member # 1912) on :
Oh, I like that, Raymond. Thanks! Reminds me of something my dad or father-in-law would have said, and maybe I needed to hear it! Love....Jill
Posted by Eric Houser (Member # 4461) on :
The market will eventually reward those who do better work.
I think MOST customers still care what their stuff looks like, even though most don't know alot about layout.
I used to let it bother me that others were doing crappy work or not charging enough, but they won't last long doing that stuff anyway.
Just my 2 cents.
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
That lil guy from Texas just about nailed it!
Life is a bitch, then you die! BUT! that doesn't mean you can't have a great ride along the way!
If business is slow...don't sit thete ctying in your beer! Get off your butt and go knocking on doors! Give the customer a nice design and on quality materials. Those satisfied custom,ers become your best advertisement! NOTHING beats repeat and/or referall jobs. They know your quality and approximate price, no hard selling and negotiating!
Hey! If a big ugly a-hole like me has been so busy for 40 years that at times I had to give away jobs to my friends because I was overbooked ... why can't you do the same?
Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
As a follow up to Raymond's comments, I'll share an experience which shows that sometimes the people who initially think they need the cheapest option can be worked out of that mindset.
The other day, someone called, shopping for the lowest price on magnetic signs. When I asked what he wanted on it, I got the usual: “Oh, a few words and a phone number. What does that cost?” I’m usually losing interest at that point but I stayed on the phone with him. I inquired what kind of work he did and found out he painted custom murals and wallscapes. A whole series of light bulbs popped up in my mind. I told him he needed to put an example of his work on his vehicle as part of his sign. “But, won’t that cost a lot more?” I responded that if the sign cost him money, it wasn’t doing its job, the sign should make him money. A conversation ensued about the image we could help him project and he began to raise his sights.
He emailed me an example of his work and a photo of his vehicle. I showed him a layout with his mural superimposed over panels with the name of his business and the phone number. He was very excited about the possibilities of what he could get. He said that he might have to sell a grandkid or two but he was going to do it.
I got the job at several times what he thought his budget was when he first called. It won’t be magnetic signs, either.
Posted by Dan Antonelli (Member # 86) on :
This will sound simplistic, but as soon as I stopped selling signs as a commodity, and began selling advertising as a service, we started to get much more design work, and much more money for our work.
It is very interesting, but attitude does say a lot about how people perceive your value. I am fortunate in the number of leads we get per week (usually about 20) via our web site. I throw out numbers for what we get for our work, but we're much too busy to really worry whether or not you can afford it.
It's not something that happened overnight, but I can say constantly (and I do mean, constantly) pushing ourselves to be better and better each day has gotten us to a place where so few of our 'competitors' are. Thus, you do gain the advantage of naming your price. And if they can't find it, well they can try to go elsewhere - but in the end, they will get what they pay for.
This year, we experienced 72% growth with the addition of only 1.5 staff members. And thats with my people working 9-5 unlike most sweatshop ad agencies. Yes, I put in my hours - but what we did is just raise our prices, and produce the same quantity of work. Quality is up, prices are up. There's no accidents about what we're experiencing.
And one other thing I might add -- this company has never been as strong as it is now had I not had the guts to hire people who we're better at certain areas than I were. Too many people let their ego make their employment decisions. I can say unequivocally that hiring the best only makes your company better. And as a result of our growth - everyone was rewarded this year with a 401k plan (with 4.5% company match), in addition to a very generous holiday bonus, and the usual paid vacations, etc.
As was stated above, produce something no one else can, and you can name your price.
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Yes, I agree that some of us are successful and have gravitated away from the letters by the pound business model. However, there are far, far too many that haven't and embrace this philosophy and run with it.
I also agree that there was always a subpar painter in town and that they did their best to undermine the market. However, today offers the untalented and unskilled access to this trade by sheer availability of equipment alone.
Bootleg software, fonts, stolen designs, unethical business practices, and such seem to be the norm today rather than the exception.
All one has to is go over SignWeb and other signie type sites to see the crap that goes on there. Gimme this font, gimme that font, who has what... "If it is free, it is for me" seems to be the creedo of far too many people.
Technology is mostly responsible for allowing this to happen. I am not saying it is all bad. Technology is a very cool thing. Look at the stuff Dan Sawatawhovitshkiovich cranks out on his router. He could do that stuff by hand but technology allows him to be doing something else like playing with his kid's kid... What a good grampa!
I will stand by my opinion that this trade is being over-run by a bunch of untalented and unskilled schmucks and the sign buying world is far too willing to accept the poop they produce. Pity.
and I don't think Ray is a pollyanna. I just don't agree with him 100%.
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
I think Ray is more of a Pippi Longstocking, myself. Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Raymond... At 50 years old and 35 years into the business.... You words are so true!
Posted by Bill Dirkes (Member # 1000) on :
Raymond, Can I be Pollyanna Jr.? I'm glad I kept reading just to get to that little nugget. And that's not a short joke, you're a giant in my eyes and your attitude has to be a big part of what brung ya. Edited to add BTW, 4 new shops within 10 miles of me in 2 yrs. I got more work than I can handle, at my price. That's Validation.
[ December 09, 2006, 06:30 AM: Message edited by: Bill Dirkes ]
Posted by bruce ward (Member # 1289) on :
bob, Im sorry you dislike my negative attitude. some people run around happy all the time I do not! I have been in sign business for 20 years. Ive painted billboards, done layouts, airbrushed, handlettered, and painted a few cars. I love this business. I love what the business has done for me and what it has given me. This post is about cutomers making crappy decisions not about you being a therapist for me and offering ways for me to "pep" up my life!
I do not reflect a negative attitude toward the customers, I am blunt with them. I offer them the top job at the price range they want. I do the layouts on the digital camera. I give them a couple of options......and still they go with crap.
Jill said it all, about its hard to talk with someone when deep down you know they aint going to use you.(in so many words) And Im sure here have always been cheapass sign dudes but with all the rampant software it increases every year.
and bruce? coroplast used in backlit signs, please tell me that aint true. Thats the cheapest of the cheap
Posted by mark zilliox (Member # 3873) on :
this is the best post for "crosstalk" and sharing i've ever read here. Si-give it to us straight, no need to sugar coat it ! ( i like honesty ! )
BruceW., like the one fellow, almost 50,been in business since a helper in sign shop,1974. couldn't BELIEVE there was a career in painting signs, then. dollar fifty an hour to start-loved going to work !!!! The same scenario is mostly true for this region. However, it amazes me that most "decent" sign folks/business/entrepeneurz , like most here in this vocation, DON'T HAVE A WEB SITE. This is a Tool to compete in the marketplace. Now, we preetty good for Southern Md., but there is some real talent on this BB-as you know. ( if it was Sign by Lunchtime, i.e. JoeWino's Sign& Design etc. ) would this site make it ?
Posted by mark zilliox (Member # 3873) on :
part 2-9 i hit a key or something for premature submission ?)
wait.....i'll get the 2nd cup of SignPainters iV-coffee ! As you know most "new" customers pick up the phone and request quote ,info,etc. And most of you with time in grade & service KNOW a un-educated consumer when you hear one. To compete and hopefully persuade the caller, we wrap up the chat with ..."check out our website & when you feel comfortable with our work, give us a call back".We even let some know we NOT GOING TO BE THE CHEAPEST PRICE-but, rather, their best value-for their advertising dollars. Our site acts like an online porfolio-mostly, since callers & potential clients have internet @ their disposal,they can get familiar with us and hopefully our location-via contact-link-map for their sign-consultation & deposit ! yeahhh. we notice the local competition have no websites OR it's sharp on technology or home page but NO CONTENT- they compete on price mostly not quality,we find.smoke & mirrors. Websites are part of the marketing mix ,even for signshops, like the phone ads or other print media, they are a MIX-in our opinion ( i did use the GI Bill to get a redneck marketing cert. ! honest-straight A's-heck nooo ). The website designers sell themselves just like we sell ourselves. Currently we are having our site redone for the 4th time in 8 years, even wallslopping redneck's have to walk the walk ! Joe Diaz is putting together a site which looks, in it's early stages, like a TOOL that will help us capture & compete in the marketplace,here.Sign folks i think overlook their marketing "presence" also.
Mr. Chapman, and the Super-Canadian granpa type, are real mentors here-god bless you sign veterans for sharing with us all.-even rookiez like me !
There have been other topic's from resident's regarding frustration & throwing in the towel. Sometimes i've also had my doubt's. Pastor Vic said to me one time about this issue....."God dresses you up as a sign person, but that's not who you are ".
finally, who's pippy longsocks?
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
quote: sign buying world is far too willing to accept the poop they produce
Nope. The sign buying world gets what they think they want. Actually The sign selling world is making it all too easy for the poopers to poop on the playing field. The completly independant, do it my way, anti authority feelings with no regulations or governing body leaves the field wide open to specualtors, poopers and dabblers.
Even flower arrangers have some regulation in some states. In Louisiana they have to arrange several peices using their own tools and supplies and flowers for a certification board. Why, to show they have at least the ability to design according to some established guidlines.
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
I'm pretty much in 100% agreement with what Bruce Bowers is saying here. You can not compare the slew of people in the business churning out low dollar crap with the few hacks that were doing the same thing back in the days of painted signs. The numbers are just too different. I dealt with a number of hacks in the trade twenty years ago. I lost a number of jobs to them but they didn't have anywhere near the affect that the computer driven people have had. For one thing, the hacks , as bad as they were, had to invest time in learning what they did. The computer folks are up and running in a day.
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Curtis,
You and I have had discussions of this very issue. I have long felt that no matter what professional vocation you choose as a money making endeavor, you must prove to someone that you know what you are doing and possess the basic skills and knowledge to get the job done correctly.
Even in my job, I see customers (passed on from the salesman) that accept lesser quality because of lower price. It was the same way in New York. I am sure it is the same way everywhere.
We do sell more jobs because of the better level of design my employers now bring to the table. I am not claiming that there isn't people in the general sign buying public that don't appreciate good design and quality. That was never my point.
However, the bottom line is a determining factor to many buyers. We are never going to change that. That is why I have been trying to push a three tier pricing policy onto the sales staff so that our clients have options instead of "here's the price... take it or leave it".
I have never regretted my choice of the career path I took. Thirty three plus years in the Craft has taken me to places I would have never been, met people I never would have met (even that Texan Pollyannian type dude... ), and allowed my to do what I have wanted to do and even some things I didn't... LOL!
As much as I am one to embrace new technology and advancements, it still remains that I have seen changes in the Craft that were not for the betterment of the trade as a whole.
As over run as I feel this trade is with unskilled and untalented schmucks and wannabe's, I am glad that I am not an autobody man, landscaper, or a remodeler. Every layoff and factory closing brings a whole new wave of them.
Posted by Anne McDonald (Member # 6842) on :
I've been quietly reading all that's said here and I agree with a lot of it and hey cowboy stuff happens in NZ too. One of the biggest things I've discovered is "NEVER, NEVER BAD MOUTH ANOTHER BUSINESS". It doesn't matter if their work is seriously rubbish and you cringe every time you see it. Bad mouthing their business makes you and yours look bad. We started in business 12 years ago and our biggest competitor s*#t on us in 17 different ways and phrases. The result....a whole heap of people coming to us saying "Thought we'd try you guys out as you seem to be upsetting the other blokes quite a lot!" Today, that firm is still bad mouthing us but from a different angle. We are now the largest shop offering vehicle graphics & pinstriping in our area and they are sending customers to us for work that they cannot do. I had one of their guys a number of years ago screaming obscenities at me because we were stealing "his" work from "his" customer. Unfortunately for him the customer in question overheard what he said to me, calmly walked outside, turned to the fella and said "that's the last time I shall ever do business with your company, now apologise to the lady and f&*k off". He was a very quiet, well spoken chap who sold seriously expensive cars. I had done very little work for him but from that day forward I did all of his work until he closed his car lot due to ill health. We've had a big learning curve lately with all of the new technology available to us and we've made some mistakes and done some jobs that we've thought later could have been done a different way and better. At the end of the day our customer base continues to grow and all of our new custom comes via word of mouth. Niche markets are fantastic and I'm exploring a couple of options in that direction. In this fast paced, ever changing world it seems that the most important thing is to keep your eyes open and move with the times not against them. If someone says a sign is too expensive, ask them "compared to what?". All of our work is worth the price charged. If someone wants a better price, offer them a higher one Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
It would be interesting to send undercover customers to the shops of Raymond, Jill, and Bruce W. and record the outcomes. In each case the customer would have instructions to come in with suggestions that would likely result in a less-than-appealing sign.
Bruce and Jill tend to report more negative experiences than the average BB poster, so I wonder if specific reasons could be found for that. Is there something Raymond does differently that gives customers a better experience? How well does he handle suggestions from the customer? Does he have a better way of steering them toward something more aesthetically pleasing? Do these three individuals have any change in attitude or body language when presented with bad ideas from the customer? Do they treat the customer differently from that point? Does the tone of the conversation change when pricing is introduced? How does each one handle that topic? Does the appearance of their shops make any difference? How does the customer feel about the overall experience? Would they come back if they needed another sign?
I would be really curious to see hidden video of those exchanges. Maybe nothing special would be revealed, but the contrary could also be true. It's hard to believe their communities have significantly higher concentrations of jerks, idiots, and aesthetically challenged individuals than the rest of the country. In previous posts Bruce and Jill have given their perceived reasons for the problems they face. Would an outside perspective see a different set of factors? It's possible they are doing things unconciously that affect the experience they have with customers.
It wasn't my intention to offend anyone with this post. I really am curious about how different people handle their customers and what we could all learn from it - good and bad.
Posted by Jill Marie Welsh (Member # 1912) on :
I'm not a bit offended, Russ, and I feel that you have an interesting point.
I know Bruce, and if you'd talk to Dana, she'd tell you that we are a lot alike. We like the same comfort foods and come from similar backgrounds.
We are also both REALLY sensitive types. We are both proud of our talent and abhor the idea of some folks just falling into the sign business that we've known for so many years.
I know I have terrible business skills. I think with my emotions all the time. If some teenager comes in wanting a windshield sticker, I'll give him a good deal and he'll pay cash and tell his pals. I have no problem with that (altho I'd NEVER do a Calvin sticker!) Likewise the little old lady type. I see my Mom in them and am kinder to them. (My sweet little old golf course lady passed away last week and I am so upset)
I get defensive when know-it-all type men come thru my door. Some seem ready to argue before I can even open my mouth. I charge these guys extra. Same for the uber-yuppie real estate lady who uses words like "signage" and "substrate".
Don't get me wrong. I try to be friendly and upbeat, and I really do listen to what the client is trying to say. After awhile, you kind of develop a "radar" about who will listen to your suggestions and who wants all-caps Old English.
I think I have three big problems with my business: 1-I work from my home, even tho it is a commercial property on a main highway. My son has "junk" up by the garage and this makes the house look shabby. It is also hard for me to get the kids to mow the grass or rake leaves etc. I have been known to wait on clients in my PJs too.
2-I am a woman. Many male customers do not take me seriously.
3- I absolutely HATE quoting prices. I loathe asking for money or a deposit. I hate the "haggling" feeling I get. Working at the hardware store was good for me because it gave me the attitude "This is our policy, we request half down and half upon completion". Usually at this point I have a hard time making eye contact with the client. I hate this about myself!
Years ago, when I first started out, I had a great upbeat attitude. I was in love with the Letterheads and I wanted every sign to be a masterpiece. Problem is, many people didn't care. So now I feel the client out. If they seem receptive to a good idea I get all excited and I can't wait to start on their project.
I still act pleased when I have to reproduce nephew art. I try to be kind, saying, "what is there about this design that you really like?" and try to build from there. But if the client is rigid, I just shut up and make their sign.
I always say thank you and I do try to be professional. I have a tiny little office and it has some cool Letterhead panels in it that always attract attention. Not all of my clients are jerks.
Sorry if I come across as negative but I can't help it sometimes. I wonder how many of the really positive people on this site are sole providers, or do they have a partner with a "real" job to fall back on? It's hard to see the light at the end of the tunnel sometimes when one is being steamrolled by debt.
And Russ, if you could see where I live, there really are a lot of rednecks and freeloaders in this area.
Love....Jill
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
I like what Anne said about talking about your competition. She seems pretty insightful for a young thing.
Yes there are a lot of uneducated people entering the sign business. I wonder why? Is it because equipment is so cheap? I don't think so. Most people wouldn't have a clue as to what a plotter is let alone what it costs. Could it be that they have an underlying desire to be creative?
I entered this business because there was a demand for it. I was being approached because I was reputed to be "artistic". I didn't have a clue as to what I was doing. I don't have the training and for 10 years I was the undermining, uneducated, backstabbing, sign whore.....NOT! but thats what others like I was are being called.
You can't stop new people coming into the business, they have as much right as you or I until some legislation comes into effect where they are required to meet a certain standard in order to have signs in public places. I don't see that happening.
I like to think I am past that status now. What got me there? Mainly Letterheads, trade people patiently working with me to educate me, building my confidence.
Sometimes I think we tend to forget what this place is all about. We all started at the beginning and life is such a fast turnover now that who has time to sit down with an apprentice and patiently teach them the tricks of the trade? You would be very fortunate indeed to land yourself in one of those rare positions.
If you want to survive do three things.... educate your customer, educate your competition and educate yourself.
Posted by jake snow (Member # 5889) on :
I just couldn't help but chime in. This post is too much fun!
I've met Jill at Dixie and I've talked to Mr. Bowers on the phone. Both are great folks. I agree with alot of what has been said on this post. good and bad. But to single out folks for speaking how they feel is...well.. crap, can't think of the word. Ever body in this biz, and I am only talking about this biz, has there own tolerance, if you will, for the customer. Some have been doing it long enough that they know what the customer is, and some "think" they know. I'm still in the "think" i know zone even though I have been in this sign crap for all my life. We can learn from the "elders" if we listen. But then there are some that have a attitude that "f*(&%^" em if they don't like it. I unfortunately have that way of thinking thanks to my dear ol dad who started our company a LoOOOng time ago. Sometimes it bites you in the ass and sometimes it don't. But if thats who you are than you get to deal with it. I can put on a game face with the best of them, but at the right point of crap, my game face goes away.
I personally think that if you are so worried about what your competition is doing your gonna lose site of "your" goals. Worry about you and yours is my thinking.
Jilly, my wife does work. Hard if I might say so. And she does bring home a check every month. And its a big help. But if I did not do what I do we would have big problems real quick. To the point of losing our place. Your doing the best for family, right? Well then you should be proud of that. But the problems you have with customers here and there you might have to work on if it botheres you that much.
Everyone has to agree that even doing crappy vinyl signs for a *&^%$ is better than digging a ditch.
Alot of the problem (as I see it) is pride. You make a sign or design a sign and it's your baby. Even if it's ugly you still gotta give it love right? 75% of the stuff I turn out of this shop I think is crap. Because I'm never satisfied after the fact of my designs (or Their design). But when ya get to go to the bank and make a deposit, boy that does feel good, don't it?
I can't count how many jobs I have qouted and lost to some other shop that can do it cheaper. Oh well, can't win them all. If it gets to the point were I am starving and can't make a living, I might consider digging those ditchs. I'm not above it.
We all bitch about the crappy jobs we get and the good ones we lose. But if you get to the point that your that miserable, ya might wanna get a shovel and try that for a while. Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
Just as a clarification, In my proposed experiment I was referring to Bruce Ward, not Bruce Bowers.
[ December 09, 2006, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: Russ McMullin ]
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
There's another factor in this mix we are tending to overlook a little. Sign makers aren't the same as they used to be.
In painting days, even if they were not the best in town, customers recognized that slinging paint was in itself a skill. Many found it amazing to see a hand lettering design appear from the end of a brush. They still do, so that recognition of skill and quality is still inherently there in the customer base.
We also recognized it in each other. Style was often the basis of the customer's choice of who did a job. Jim was the solid hand letterer with a flair for bold graphics, Pete was the way to go for straight forward traditional lettering, Mark was the guy doing bouncy, fun scripts and I was known for bold, bright colors and airbrushing tricks. We all the the same kinds of work...signs, vehicles, motorcycles, etc...so forget the niche theory. We all got versatile out of need and served multiple markets, but each with a different approach and hand crafted flair. There was another guy named Jim who came along with a vinyl cutter one day who was the first around here to offer vinyl graphics. He filled a need here as well and we all admired that he was bringing a new approach to signs in town. To this day, I can't remember ANY OF US badmouthing each other. We could always find something good, improved or unique in each other's work. There was a mutual respect that we each had our customers and had earned them by our own merits and styles. Many of us went head to head at race car shows and they became something of a benchmark every year seeing how each of us had progressed, how things we going and we shared some honest, constructive criticisms. We are all still friends to this day. Although not aware of the term itself, we were all Letterheads.
It's not that way anymore by a long shot. The technology aside, there's a different kind of sign shop in the world today.
The proliferation of people who start shops as a way to make a quick buck continues. A very, very few branch out past a few basic layouts, and as a result, take on a somewhat cut throat attitude. They're not looking to make a career of this, just as much as possible as fast as they can. Modern day snappers. Once they burn out their low end market and grow stale on limited skills, they depart leaving a real mess behind...crappy looking signs. Unlike the snappers, they now leave their equipment sold to the next guy with even less skill.
It's a mentality that seems to have taken hold... "The competition is the enemy and to hell with respect. I want his and I'll undercut him to get it...now! I don't have to earn my stripes...I can cut them and wear them day one."
If you honestly think that the broad marketing of new technology hasn't had an adverse effect, think of it this way...
There have always been what I call the real weapons of this trade. Solid design skills, some artistic backround, personal flair and the determination to continually try to improve those skills are by far the most powerful. Striping with a sword, carving your way around a tricky letter, attacking with a dagger, quietly making a statement with a quill or lighting a fire with an airbrush are the results of wielding those weapons with a target in mind...the end result. In the last several years, that weaponry has grown to include computers, plotters, wide format printers, routers...powerful weapons they are in the right hands. Many brandish them well.
But there's no ten day waiting period to buy a plotter...and the whole world is left looking at unappealing drive-byes done on storefronts, cars, vans and entrances by those who don't even know how to aim, much less hit the mark....unless they take it in mind to actually try to do it right.
Those seem fewer and further between these days... Rapid
[ December 09, 2006, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: Ray Rheaume ]
Posted by Jill Marie Welsh (Member # 1912) on :
Just for the record the only time I bitch about my competitors is right here. If we can't come here for the occasional whine, what good is this place? You can't talk about signs to anybody but fellow sign people. Nobody else gives a flying fart. I have had customers come here saying my competitors were talking smack on me (mainly that my prices are too high) but I have yet to stoop to that low. And I have been many things in my life but never a sign whore. And I don't recall saying that about anyone here. I always tried to do the right thing. I do try to just keep on keeping on, but it is hard NOT to worry about my clients going elsewhere to people who are clueless as to design. There is also my mean little alter ego that loves looking at these alleged "signs" I've quoted on that have gone elsewhere...I pretty much feel that the idiots who bought them got their just desserts. Jake any time you need help with that ditch let me know Buddy! Love....Jill
Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
I was just told by someone that my comments above sounded smug and offensive. It certainly wasn't my intention to come across that way. If I have given the impression that my life is a bed of roses, or that I have all the answers, I apologize. I am, however, very interested in what makes one business work where another one fails.
A previous business failure has me working for someone else rather than running my own operation. Someday that will change, but I want to be wiser the next time I make a go of it. I think I know most of the reasons for the failure, and if I'm honest with myself, it was entirely my fault. I didn't do it intentionally, but it was still my own actions in cases, and lack of action in others that killed the business. I don't blame my customers or the market. It was me.
That is why I am interested in knowing more about the people who have a positive outlook on this business. How do they do it? I want to know so I can do it too.
It's certainly the right of those having trouble to voice their frustration. It's also my right wonder about solutions.
Posted by Anne McDonald (Member # 6842) on :
Wow, thankyou Kelly for calling me a young thing! I guess my basic philosophy is to treat people the way that I would like to be treated. I can moan about my competitors and customers but at the end of the day I figure it this way. If I quote for a sign and some one undercuts me, I ain't gonna match that price cos I quite like to have some profit in my work! We've had guys take custom away from us with prices that were literally non-profit! Funnily enough six months later our customers are back looking sheepish and wondering why they ever bothered with the moron that offered them such a great deal!
It's happened a lot! I just smile and thank them every time. I've only lost my cool with a couple of customers (I have chewed my tongue bloody wanting to with others) not being sexist or anything but they were both men who started out by treating me like an idiot then thought they'd get cute, chat me up, then get offensive when I politely declined their advances. Jill I am hearing your "Men don't take me seriously cos I'm a woman".
I've been in the industry as a "Sticky" for 17 years. I've recently picked up a brush which I love. I hope to still be in the industry for another 30 years! Every day is a new and interesting learning experience and morons, idiots and truely wonderful people will continue to cross my path!
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Hey Russ,
I'm a firm believer that failed businesses are only caused by the people running them.
Markets may come and go but it's up to business owners to adapt to change, and that includes seeking completely different industries if needed, before the bottom drops out!
When you think about the skill set of sign people, you have people who can paint, perform carpentry, mason work, fabrication/welding, sculpting, do design work on computers and the list goes on and on. With computers and the internet, you have the ability to reach customers you never thought possible and show them your work, and the ability to work from just about anywhere. There is absolutely NO reason people with these kinds of skills should have to go hungry. Even if they can't make it with a sign shop because of the market, those skills can be put to use in other industries.
I'm included in that as well. I have marketable skills out the wazoo but the problem is I'm too hung up on developing the skills and not marketing them as well as I should. If I put the same effort into marketing as what I put into my fitness (my main priority in life right now) I'd be busy as a one-armed wallpaper hanger.
Then again, I've also been playing with the idea of getting certified in fitness training and nutrition, and taking business a completely different direction!
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Just today, I was talking to a friend who I was installing truck lettering for. He is a classical pianist... but also a high end plumbing professional. (yeah... unusual combination)
I was mentioning to him that it is surprising when I discover someone having difficulty with math, fractions & reading a tape measure. I knew he must depend on measuring & basic math skills in his line of work also. And I knew from previous discussions that employing others to help him was a relatively new part of his business, as it is with me.
The relevance to this topic that I see, is based on my belief that we all are blessed with a few "natural talents" ...things we do well with no effort. For me, math has always been one of those things. Social "skills" & by extension, also selling skills seem to be another natural talent.
On the math thing I still am surprised when I see someone struggle with math. If it were not happening in front of me, I would take for granted that working with basic number & basic measurements is an easy task, & is easy for everyone.
As far as the curiosity Russ mentioned regarding the differences one might see watching Ray Chapman's customer service style compared to any number of others who may handle the same mystery shopper differently, I think there is a lot to that.
I have watched myself get better & better at that process over the years & I can truely thank Letterville & many of my friends here for part of the inspiration behind that improvement.
But while I think I have found & nurtured a talent in that process... I don't know how easily that could be taught. For me, I think the most valuable part of whatever helps me be successful at the sales counter, is a natural talent I was given & not only didn't work for... but don't completely recognize or understand... I just seem to be able to make things go the way I want them to go a majority of the time. (Letterville has just helped me aim higher)
Anyway, my point is that Ray (& others)can encourage everyone to aim higher... & to be optimistic... but there are finer points to his "technique" that are not as easily taught... and that he may not even fully appreciate, or know how to put in words.
I don't feel that I have half the artistic talent of many people I look up to here, but I do have a good business sense. For several years now, since I first started admitting to myself I was willing to hire help to allow my business to grow... I always said that designing was the last thing I would ever pay for help with, because that is what I enjoy the most.
Just this past week I had the revelation that I DO want to hire a talented design person (from the sign industry) because I am now very busy growing my business... & that is a design project of sorts, it is very rewarding from a creative standpoint as well as financially rewarding. I have enough jobs now, that I could delegate 90% of the design work & still do enough design myself to continue to develop & improve that skill.
Posted by bruce ward (Member # 1289) on :
russs Im not offended either, thats your perception.
im not arrogant, im not mean, i am firm and experienced.
When a customer approaches me I ask address and how they heard about me. I go out take pics of site and discyuss possible sigange that would fit their needs and /or budget.
I come back and in a couple of days I have 2-3 layouts and a full color brochure, koozies and magnetic business cards.
If they have any further questions call me. If they get other quotes and mine seems very high call me and well see if we are comparing apples to apples(this actually works sometimes and I can intervene some sorry ass quotes and crappy materials) I also stay on top of them a call bout every week or so. It seems very easy for a customer to "lose" you and yourstuff. No Im not negative to them. I dont bad mouth other sign companies either to the customer. I vent on here.
I will say I may be blunt on some occasions as in the customer saying "Quicky Signs will do the same thing as you for 1/2 the price" my reply to this is "Tell them to get started!" I have had them approach me with "Quicky Signs will be doing the signs for less and would you email over the layout?" I reply NO! If they can do better price they can do their own layout....thats may be uncalled for at that point the war is over.
This statement is demeaning to me. I dont sell cars or office equipment.
Posted by Jill Marie Welsh (Member # 1912) on :
Math? That was my worst subject...even had to have a tutor for fractions in 7th grade who might as well have been speaking Chinese to me for as much as I absorbed. Thank God I don't have to punch X-Y coordinates into my 4E or I would happily slash my wrists.
Spelling, thankfully, is usually one of my better talents. Art was my best subject.
And I was born shy, have been fighting with it since my teen years, and am almost over it. I was talking with a female Head the other day and we both do this...The deposit is paid, sketch approved, the sign is finished. But then we get scared to call the client to tell them their sign is ready! We are afraid that they will bitch about something they've signed off on, or try to nickle-and-dime us after the fact. It's only happened to me a few times in 21 years, but there is always that underlying fear of rejection.
And maybe men don't take me seriously because of the PJs. I am really not a feminist, but I do loathe the "little lady" type guys if you know what I mean.
And sorry for getting my Bruces mixed up. The original Bruce who posted this always seems to be on the same page as me. I like his saltiness. He's not a candy-coater. To answer his original question? Yup...it's here too.
• lettering running to the edges • over-use of casual alphabets/Brush Script • really awful color schemes • peeling cheap vynull • crappy wraps • faded digital prints • horrendous layouts • improperly used VectorArt clippies • too many typestyles on one sign • the over-use of distortion • too many special effects making the sign illegible
I actually LOVE it when I drive by a place and see a decent sign. (usually made by my mentor, who is fed up too)
Most of the big developments with the fancy signs get them out-of-state. Most of them are pretty nice too, except for the plethora of University Roman. I get excited when I see a LHF on a sign. IF it's used right!
Love....Jill
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
It is soo interesting!
Knowing where and when you can use effects to create a 'Design or Sign'!
Most customers think the old version of.... "The Bigger,the Better, for thier bucks!"
And all of you have stated that their buck is short...... in pocket!
How do you approach the client or "Slap Happy" on you own face to help with thier dreams of what they like to see?
We all are fitting shoes for someone... and they are not comfortable until it fits!
I think thats called "Budget!... Get It!"
[ December 10, 2006, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: Stephen Deveau ]
Posted by Jill Marie Welsh (Member # 1912) on :
PS ..."educate your competition" How will this help my business to survive, pray tell? I need some clarification, please. This one really makes no sense to me! The most I have ever done to educate a competitor is to call and warn them about a rip-off artist client. Seemed like the "moral" thing to do. Or do you mean to show them how much better your work looks than theirs? I think they already know that, but they don't care. If they did care, they would worry about design and charging a good price. And I don't think that every person who dives into the sign biz does it to scratch a creative itch. Many are hobbyists, and there are others who are too cheap to pay a reputable sign company to letter their vehicle. Still others see it as a "get rich" scheme...hahaha. My project for the day, after I finish outlining 2 signs for tomorrow, is to drive around town and take a few pix of my competitors' signs to post here. I also drew up a new layout for someone who price-shopped me in the summer and made their own sign, which looks like an abortion on a stick. I think I'll cold-call them tomorrow with the sketch. Love....Jill
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
Educating the competition is what others did for me. They taught me to value what I do, to have pride in my work, to use the correct substrates for applications, to work with quality materials. They taught me layout skills and use of colour right from not using all upper case script to not putting black drop shadows on red. Most important and beneficial to them they taught me not to undercharge and undermine the market.
Although I am not direct competition to you, you were one of those that helped me a great deal Jill. Thank you.
I'm trying to repay that by doing the same for others, helping out others that are new to the business. I have a pretty good relationship with some sign shops in my area, others I haven't crossed paths with yet. Those that are new I help as much with pricing as I can and I always give them the "undercharging hurts the sign business as a whole." I also explain the need for quality substrates if they are serious about being around for a while. I'm not a saint or self righteous, it is in my best interest to do this and I pay my dues and pass on what was so freely given to me. Isn't that what Letterheads is about?
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
quote:My project for the day, after I finish outlining 2 signs for tomorrow, is to drive around town and take a few pix of my competitors' signs to post here.
In Chemainus where we used to live, my good friend opened up an ice cream parlor next door to our business. Janis & I helped him staerrt it up. The signs were great, we redid the building, the interior was world class... everything perfect. He did a fabulous business too.... sold thousands of ice cream cones. While he sold ice cream, he did it in a way like no other. Even though he sold a common brand of ice cream he presented it in a way that made it look (and most said TASTE special too) it was really just common ice cream. Folks routinely drove a hundred miles or more for an ice cream cone from this special place.
Before long others in town saw his success and decided to go into the ice cream business. How hard could it be? Two or three ice cream stores started in town within a couple of blocks. They were quicky - sticky outfits... no class, bad signs, no uniforms, no interior decor...
My friend freaked out over the competition and instead of thinking of ways to improve his business and make it even more special he obsessed over what the fellows down the road were doing and what they WERE NOT doing. It consumed him over the next months.
Instead of staying in his store being nice to his customers and encouraging his staff to do the same he spent his time spying on his competition. His business wasn't affected by the other stores opening initially, but when he stopped minding his store it quickly lost much of its specialness and personality.
A year later he couldn't handle it anymore and sold the once thriving business to another. He blamed the quicky sticky ice cream outfits in town for his demise.
I placed the blame elsewhere. Had my friend concentrated on his own business he would have had nothing to fear. He marketed and sold something that no one else could compete with. When he started thinking about ordinary ice cream he lost focus on the special product he sold.
My friend is now back working for the phone company once more... a job he was very anxious to leave when he started the ice cream business.
In our tiny town of Yarrow (population 1100) there are FOUR sign shops. Chilliwack has TWENTY SEVEN sign shops listed in the yellow pages.... I KNOW there are many more shops in town than that.
NONE of that matters to me. I only concern myself with what goes on inside my shop. How can I improve the things I do. How can I make my product even more special and different from everyone else.
Each project we install will draw people who want something different to us.... for none of my competition can do what I do. If they choose to copy what I do that's OK for by the time they learn what they want I will be MILES futher down the road of learning.
Going back to the first quoted paragraph above...
I've often wondered about the lack of success Jill experiences. She is one of the MOST talented designers and painters I know. I know it to be true for I've seen her in action at meets. She has a wonderful color sense and awesome brush skills. Some how we just have to figure out a way to market this ability and rachet it up to the next level in the market place.
I would encourage Jill (and others reading) to instead use the time to do something positive and long term for herself. Do something which takes you towards the long term goals in YOUR business. Use the time to learn a skill or develop a product which makes you DIFFERENT from your competitors.
Without knowing your business and seeing how you operate I do not know specific answers nor can I make specific suggestions. I do know what works for us however and suspect that solutions for anyone who is struggling are not that different.
If something is not working for a long time you have to make some changes. What the competition is doing is not important... what YOU do is.
-grampa dan
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Jill, maybe you could use the time to whip your son into action cleaning up the first impression of your home/office...
& while he's doing that, you could be designing some additional signage for that first impression... as well as some landscaping or subtle exterior decorative embellishments to add further asthetic improvements to your clients first impression...
...offer to pay your son for the landscaping etc, while explaining that the money isn't coming out of thin air... it is being manifested through your intentions when you are proactive about presenting your already professional company one small notch higher then last week.
Ever watch that house-flipping show "curb appeal"? You could probably put a weekend of sweat into simply rearranging clutter and as little as $200 into some accents, or repairs.
I'll bet you will see results in your own self image. I'll also bet that an actual increase in paying customers, or the prices they pay will follow.
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike Pipes:
I'm a firm believer that failed businesses are only caused by the people running them.
This IS interesting!
Mike: Business failure is most generally caused by failed owners....BUT, I know a person who is currently going down the perverbial tubes because of many events she had NO control over. For example: she had two clients file bankruptsy within a short time. That plus other things started her on a downward spiral that has yet to conclude.
Will she survive? Don't know, remains to be seen. Was it her fault? NO. I don't know. But, her story is repeated countless times every year in the USA.
Maybe you have some secret that several thousand failed business owners need to hear. Instead of becoming a nutritionist, perhaps you should be sharing your glowing success in a New York Times best seller. I just think it's wrong to blanketly blame business owners for every failure.
Please don't take this wrong Mike, but your comment seems a bit insensitive. Unless I am misreading you. If so, I apologize.
I am really enjoying this thread, and I feel I will personally benefit from reading the posts.
Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
Rick, I'm curious to know why the bankruptcy of two clients would put her out of business. Do they owe her money?
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Rick, I think Mike makes a valid point, & yet I also agree that it is a bit of a blanket statement. I would usually consider any blanket statement to be a quick easy way to imply a generality... and not a belief on the part of any intelligent writer that there is ever a generalization that fits for EVERY incident.
Even with your friends as an exception, it may still be a valid consideration that they could have been better prepared for unexpected bad luck.
I was advised a few years ago to secure some lines of credit for unexpected financial need. I now have the means to get $75K tomorrow if I need it. No application required... that parts done already... no cost to me today, as the balance is zero... but the available funds are available immediately, for ANY purpose, as there is no further involvement by the bank... the money already has my name on it.
And along the lines of Russ' comment... maybe they over-extended credit if just 2 clients default on payments could ruin their business. That is just a guess of course... I realize that a business selling higher dollar items, with a lower profit margin could create a lot of risk even with a 50% balance owed... & I imagine some business' can not operate without levels of finalcial risk beyond what I would accept... but even that "fact" (if it is one) would make such a risky business unwise to those who can not afford the risk.
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
Yes Russ, they owed her several thousand. She did everything right: (50% down, etc)
I have known medical issues to pull good business people out of the race too. Does that make them a failure?
[ December 10, 2006, 10:08 PM: Message edited by: Rick Beisiegel ]
Posted by Michael R. Bendel (Member # 5847) on :
Technology does have a factor in this.
Kinkos & others now offer banners.
"Simple" 1 time banners were a part of our business. I don't care to compete with their - "we'll sell a million for a couple percent over cost" mentality.
The new technology has definitely affected the knock-out stuff.
Hey... we'll make money, but putting up with the "shoppers" armed with the fleet store prices, looking for 1 or 2 word, 1 time use banners & such, is a pain & I miss the "butter".
Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
I think you are concentrating on exceptions rather than rules Rick. Just because there are exceptions doesn't mean generalizations can't be made.
In my case I could have blamed the market. There was a serious downturn in the illustration market just about the time I got started as a full time illustrator. Stock illustration was becoming popular with art directors and new commission were harder to come by. None of that was my fault. I was producing better work all the time, but had a hard time staying busy. Lots of illustrators got squeezed out of the market at that time. I'm pretty sure none of them meant to fail.
But, not all of them failed. There were some who handled those bad times. They were the more flexible ones. They did whatever it took to succeed. They took part times jobs, did portraits on the side, and found ways of getting their work into art galleries. They even submitted their work to stock agencies so they could resell rights to work they had already done. I'm ashamed to say I did none of these things. Yes, the market did stink, but there was work there, and I was unwilling to adapt at that time.
Someone shared a quote a months ago that really hits home with me: "Life is full of obstacle illusions". All too often I set obstacles before myself that are mostly imaginary. They do have some basis in fact, but not entirely. Who is at fault when I run into a tree because I refuse to get out of its way?
So often I get discouraged with my lack of progress and I start to blame my circumstances, and then I see someone else in the same circumstances, doing what I want to do!
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Rick,
It's just the way I think.
I don't allow myself to play the blame game because in my mind that's just giving your power away to someone else. I just can not accept that for myself.
In the situation of the person you mentioned I tend to look at it like I DID have control over it. If you allow your business to make a majority of its income from one or two customers, even if it's just a temporary timeframe during the project itself, you're running a very risk proposition. That sounds like a case of putting all the effort into two very well-paying yet very risky jobs and not making sure there's a backup plan with other smaller jobs that have more immediate payoff to keep cashflow moving. I know the situation well because I've done the same and learned my lesson the hard way, but in my case it was taking on ongoing projects in a completely different field (engineering) which took away from the time I could invest into building my own business. Either way it doesn't matter because my little small-time business is still going and growing while that billion dollar engineering firm was bankrupted a couple years ago.
And to think had I not left them to move to Arizona in the first place, I still would have had to start from scratch with another job or my own business. I got a 5 year jumpstart on them. Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
Mike Pipes & Russ:
You guys make valid arguments. I can't stand the "victim" syndrome either.
I too am experiencing a downturn with my own circumstances. Others around me tell me "you can't help it, Michigan has the highest unemployment rate in the USA". Yes, even worse than Alaska. But, I too am attempting to reshape or redirect my attention to be in survival mode.
It gets discouraging when you work your hiney off on a quote, (photo shoots, committee meetings, etc), only to lose a $8000 job for a $50 difference,(not a sealed bid process) I charged and recieved a design fee, but, as you know when they are willing to pay for design, you often put in more than you are compensated for.
Sorry Bruce, I didn't mean to hijack your post
[ December 11, 2006, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: Rick Beisiegel ]
Posted by Jill Marie Welsh (Member # 1912) on :
Two years ago I lost my main client, a glass plant, due to a flood. They folded owing me $600, which is a LOT of money to me.
I never really bounced back from that, and last year was my worst ever. As you know, I was forced to get a real job or lose everything.
This year has been better for me. The foreman of the glass plant that closed has moved to a new glass plant. I get about $300 a month in signs from them (60 day net...ugh) but that pays my truck payment. Last month I paid off my house!
I still have a hand-to-mouth existance, always have. I wish it could be better. Maybe someday it will.
I don't want to educate my competitors tho. Let them keep on making crappy signs. Nobody educated me whan I was starting out. And I'm not dissing the Letterhead spirit here either. I'm talking local. I have tried to tell my competitors about the Letterheads but they look at me like I have a third eye. So I just have an online fellowship. That's good enough for me.
I might try the curb appeal thing come spring. We are in the midst of a forced public sewage installation here, and everything is torn up everywhere. It's just too cold out right now anyway!
Love....Jill
Posted by Brad Farha (Member # 931) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bruce Bowers: Bruce,
It just isn't around you. I put the blame for the downturn in the level of skills in the Craft to the advent of rampant computer use.
Computers have allowed a whole new class of untalented and unqualified schmucks access to a trade that they have absolutely NO business being in.
+1
Posted by Tim Whitcher (Member # 685) on :
Yep. Just had a so called competitor get a lettering job away from me (Patrol car). Their bid was $200.00 less, and to add insult to injury, they stole my design. I rarely do vehicles anymore.
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
I have to echo Grampa Dan's comments here. We have no control over the decisions and business practices of our competitors. We DO, however, have complete control of our OWN business practices, and those are what control our destinies - not what other people do.
An example: I live in coastal Connecticut. I'm surrounded by marinas, boatbuilders, boat owners galore - yet I letter perhaps a half-dozen boats a year. Why so few? Because the vast majority of boat owners purchase vinyl lettering from other shops, or online, for less than what I will charge; because marinas have purchased their own plotters, etc. to service their customers in-house.
There are two ways I could respond to that. I could try to gain a greater market share by lowering my prices; by being "competitive" with all the semi-skilled vinyl jockeys; by constantly fretting over what so-and-so charges. None of the energy spent on this would do a damn thing for my sanity or my bottom line; I'd just be doing more work for less money, all while knowing that somebody would STILL be charging less.
OR... I could consciously decide to change my focus. I still offer boat lettering, but my boats are ONLY hand-lettered and hand-designed on site, according to what looks right on the boat. Customers get a very limited say in this process; by which I mean they don't pick from a list of fonts, etc. Not that this matters, because the people who come to me look to ME as the professional who will make their boat lettering look like it should. They also come to me knowing that I'm going to charge three or four times as much as they'd pay for "vynull to go" and at least double what most shops will charge to come out and install vinyl.
I have no interest in the boat owners who shop for the lowest price, or can't be bothered to know the difference. Most of my boat customers own older classic boats, and they have a different mindset about how things look and how they should be done. They tend to have a greater respect for the skill and professionalism I offer, and they place a value on that.
Now, obviously I don't make a living on six boats a year, but can you see where I'm going here? By applying the same basic attitude to the rest of my business, I end up doing less work for more money, plus, the majority of my customers are FAR more pleasant and respectful than those who approach a sign shop with the goal of getting the lowest price on the most basic kind of work.
And while I'm at it... I have been thinking about what Jill says about her work, her customers, and her situation. Then I think of another female letterhead (she'd be embarrassed if I used her name; some of you will figure it out, BTW she does not post here) who has built up a terrific business entirely with vehicles; she is booked months in advance, owns and keeps her shop in great condition, charges a premium and earns a very good living. She's not necessarily more talented or smarter than Jill, but she's obviously better at something , no? This isn't trying to pick on Jill or tell her how to live or how to do business, but it is a fair observation, and one that can be considered.
Posted by Jill Marie Welsh (Member # 1912) on :
But Cam! I'm no Karen Sousa! (she is my idol, by the way, always has been since I met her at my first meet in 1994) She has more talent in her little gloved pinkie than I do in my whole body.
My daughter told me today that someone at her boyfriend's workplace asked him about me, saying I seemed "tempermental" when approached for a sign. Perhaps I am. But not anymore. Like I said earlier, I will give the customer what they want till they choke on it! With a smile on my face. (the man who said I was tempermental probably wanted me to letter his truck doors for $50)
Love....Jill
Posted by Mark Stokes (Member # 5351) on :
what is right what is wrong Everyones situation is different, some people may have assetts paid for no kids to look out for less debt and can bid higher for jobs and not worry if they get it or not. Others who may need certain jobs to keep going pay loans off etc, so they match competitors prices to keep going and maybe that job can turn into better things down the track. Then there are other vinyl guys who do work really cheap and crap but you do not match there prices.
I agree you should look out for your own business, If your worried about what your competitors are doing you have lost.
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
No, Jill, you aren't. But her sucess isn't all about talent or any other intangible or mysterious ability.
When I began in this business I looked at SignCraft and other sources, saw people doing the kind of stuff I wanted to do, and emulated them. I don't just mean in their designs or techniques, but how did they present themselves? How did they deal with obnoxious would-be clients? What was their attitude about pricing? About deposits and getting paid? About attracting the top five percent customers and doing showpiece projects?
How did I learn those things? I asked! And when something they said sounded wrong or just inconceivable, I didn't insist what they were doing "wouldn't work in my area" or "my customers don't want anything nice" or "I ca'nt do that" - I asked for explanations, for examples, for advice in specific situations.
And something else. Not once did I hear ANY of those people I looked up to complain about their competition, or their cheap customers, or the economy, or any of the other lame excuses that are the bane of this trade. What I learned was that success was about hard work and patience, about taking every opportunity to learn something new, about setting policies regarding deposits and final payment, about showing potential customers your best work, and then doing something better.
I'll bet you $100 right now that Karen Sousa doesn't have anybody bad-mouthing her because she won't letter a truck for $50. No one would ever look at her work, or her shop, or her customers, and ever think of asking her. Anyone who did, and complained about it, would be laughed right out of the truck stop. And Karen works for a tough crowd not known for being bashful, or especially respectful of women. So maybe, Jill, what you might need to ask yourself, is why after all these years does someone think YOU would letter a truck for $50?
Again, I'm not trying to pick on Jill in particular. But her experiences are way too common to the trade to not start asking hard questions about who we are and what we are doing wrong. And maybe - just maybe - quit the endless bellyaching, and start listening to people like Karen Sousa or Grampa Dan who obviously do something right. Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
What Cam is saying is not always easy to do, but it is the right thing to do.
My Dad used to say (and now I am prone to say it to sons and grandchildren), "If it were easy everyone would be doing it".
And it does not come overnight. It is an established tradition that you set one day after another.
Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jill Marie Welsh: My daughter told me today that someone at her boyfriend's workplace asked him about me, saying I seemed "tempermental" when approached for a sign. Perhaps I am. But not anymore. Like I said earlier, I will give the customer what they want till they choke on it! With a smile on my face. (the man who said I was tempermental probably wanted me to letter his truck doors for $50)
This is exactly the kind of information I had been wondering about. The fact that it was recent and unsolicited makes it worth considering. Why did the man volunteer that information, and why did he feel that way? It's easy to dismiss it and assume he was the worst kind of customer, but what if he wasn't? Are you sending a vibe you aren't aware of? If people think you are difficult to work with, it could more than price that is driving them to seek other options. I'm not saying it is, but it could be.
Posted by Frank Magoo (Member # 3950) on :
"If their in your head, their winning."
Posted by Jill Marie Welsh (Member # 1912) on :
...I think it is the man who I had quoted a price of $175 each for 5 sets of truck doors. (I usually charge $195) His landscape company is right near my daughter's BFs workplace. When he called me to say that he was getting his doors done for $50 a truck, and expected me to match it, I laughed and said there was no way I could do that and feed my kids. I remember my initial meeting with this guy, I was excited about his colors and all, as I love a red truck as a substrate. He ended up getting dark metallic gold with a weird green outline that you can't even see on the trucks. I remember seeing him at the grocery store and telling him how bad they looked! hahahaha I guess I am tempermental. But he agreed. Too late tho, his money had been spent.
I think the problem is not really with competition....it's the customers. What was good old BOB BURNS' tagline? "The customer is your enemy...act like it!" It's hard not to. And I think some here confuse my seeming negativity with reality. But then it goes back to the competitor who bought a plotter knowing nothing of design, and the client who liked their lowball prices. There is a sign shop in a town close by, where the guy charges $750 for two truck doors, edge printed. But he is rather surly.
I remember reading an article about Karen years ago, where she said that she never put her phone number on her own vehicle. I found that to be quite impressive. My own sign had no phone number on it for a few years, through a few re-dos (I repaint my own sign about every 2 years) I did get more calls after adding it, but it was the old "How much for magnetics" ones. I prefer talking to the customer in person so I can show them my portfolio, etc.
I wish they trusted my skills as they obviously do Cam's and Karen's. Sometimes I get to show them, other times not. I am glad that I finally do have a website as an online portfolio, like Mark Z suggests. Even if it's not as great as Joe Diaz's work! It is still a tool until I can afford better.
So far this week I have shown two of the makeover sketches to to establishments. The resale shop lady was interested, come spring. It's really a funky little antique shop. When I see resale I think old clothes. She could have a thriving business if clients knew what neat stuff she's selling, and I told her that. She had a store in Mars and she remembers my meet...so we'll see. The bakery guy was totally unaccepting. The Steel Magnolias lady is apparently never around.
My dad's quote to me was "if you're going to do something, do it right, or don't do it at all" I have always tried to emulate that. The last thing he ever told me was "Stick with signs. Some day you'll make $50K a year" (that was a lot to us) I keep sticking to them, hoping he was right. This is my 21st year in signs.
Love....Jill
Posted by Arthur Vanson (Member # 2855) on :
Jill is a lovely bright, little sparkler, if she's struggling I can't believe it has anything to do with negativity. Thankfully she's a realist and recognizes there isn't always a magic answer. But it won't stop her fighting.
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
"My own sign had no phone number on it for a few years, through a few re-dos (I repaint my own sign about every 2 years) I did get more calls after adding it, but it was the old "How much for magnetics" ones."
Jill -now you know why Karen (and many others) do not put their phone numbers on vehicles.
I'm not sure what a "realist" is in relation to this discussion. In the past I had always thought that a realist was someone who saw things as they actually were. With that definition in mind, I see Dan, Cam, and others as realist.
There is no way in the world that I would ever hurt Jill's feelings (or anyone else for that matter) but it just seems impractical to blame others for some lack of progress in our own lives. You may not care for Dr. Phil, but he does have one saying that I find very practical-when someone keeps doing the wrong thing over and over he asks "How is that working for you?".
For my birthday a great friend of mine gave me a book - "Everyday Greatness" by Stephen Covey. Actually, it is a collection of positive quotes and stories that have appeared in Reader's Digest and Covey wrote the introduction and some comments on each chapter. It has tremendous examples of how ordinary people overcame huge obstacles to achieve goals.
"I think the problem is not really with competition....it's the customers."
"There is a sign shop in a town close by, where the guy charges $750 for two truck doors, edge printed. But he is rather surly."
Jill - if it is the customer's fault, how does the surly guy get away with charging so much more? Your designs are very good and you seem to have that sparkling personality that Arthur mentioned, so go get'em girl. By the way, I totally disagree with Bob Burns - customers are my best friends...they feed me.
I doubt that this thread or any of the others that have gone before will change the minds of a lot of people, but we cannot continue to blame others for the condition in which we find ourselves.
I've heard that folks being trained by the FBI for spotting counterfeit paper money are never shown a fake bill. They study the real thing until they know it backwards and forewards and then the fake is easily spotted. An application here seems that we should take the successful folks we know and study them instead of concentrating on the negative.
End of sermon. More MDO to coat out.
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Not to take odds, Raymond, but I'm just enough of a realist to recognize that running a business often requires more than a positive attitude.
If you enjoy the work in and of itself and have developed a solid customer base, keeping upbeat is easy when the cash flow is steady. The real test of your character is usually when the wallet gets thinned down.
My market here is very similar to Jill's...rural, not a lot of big money and more than it's fair share of people looking at price before quality. Despite the small market locally, there are 8 people producing signage here....far more than fit the need. Many do it as a source of "extra income" and for a lot less than I do. Not an uncommon situation these days for a lot of small towns.
It's been said..."I don't want to do all the signs in town, just the good ones." Realistically, that may not be an effective approach as far as a business aspect is concerned. If the good ones are few and far between, you're gonna have a lot of free time on your hands, and that's not gonna pay the bills. You can make money on average looking signage as long as it's profitable. Sure, it may be a drag to do, but you're not gonna starve for having done it.
I strove for years to keep the customers happy thinking that it was all it took to run a business. I also felt that the busier I was, the more I was money making.
Reality... In the last 3 weeks, I've turned down 5 jobs because the work wasn't profitable. That doesn't mean I'm not an upbeat person or not optimistic, but realistic. When there's very little or no money to be made...why do it? For some, that can be a tough line to tow. We all have different personalities and circumstances and are going to handle them differently. What may be considered a "slow season" for some could mean closing the doors to others.
Maybe it should be changed to... "I don't want to be the most popular sign maker in town...just the most profitable." Rapid
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
It's been said..."I don't want to do all the signs in town, just the good ones."
I'm the one that said that Ray. And I don't think we are at odds with each other here.
I think you are confusing "good" with high priced. I do a lot of signs and I think that they are all "good", but a lot of them are very simple...maybe even plain...but still good.
You've turned down five signs - so how should that make you negative? We all have to make a decision on what is profitable and what is not.
"keeping upbeat is easy when the cash flow is steady. The real test of your character is usually when the wallet gets thinned down."
Yep, I'll agree. "If it were easy everyone would be doing it." I've been through a bankruptcy and my bank balance this morning is $78.12. Is that an excuse for me to blame everyone else and turn out junk?
Sure, running a business is more than a positive attitude...but try to run one without it and see where it gets you.
While I was writing this the phone rang and a customer ordered four 4' x 8' signs that I can finish before Monday, and he's sending me a check in advance. The bank account just went up.
I still hold to my statement that reality is what is happening at the moment and you can either see it as positive or negative.
Does anyone remember the "Gary Anderson Theory"?
Posted by Jill Marie Welsh (Member # 1912) on :
Nope....please refresh us! I'm curious, and it probably bears repeating. Love....Jill ($13 in savings, $6 in personal, and -$1 in the sign account with $450 due in eventually) You know what? Lots of times the expensive surly guy's customers come to me! Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
I just re-read the article this week... and I'm a believer! I live in Yarrow - population 1100 with four signmakers in town. NO PROBLEM.
SignCraft has it archived on their website... well worth the time to read!
[ December 14, 2006, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: Dan Sawatzky ]
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
The Gary Anderson Theory was a SignCraft article by Mike Jackson that appeared some time ago. I was thinking that he had posted about it here, but my search found only this thread by Grandpa Dan. (the following is that post by Sawatzky)
Most of us are familiar with Mike Jackson's Signcraft article in which he so eloquently articulated the 'Gary Anderson" theory. I have read it many times and agree with it whole heartedly.
But there are still some folks who insist that it wouldn't work in their town, or that they live in a rural setting with no real town about them.
Wanting to stay in a particular area for personal reasons IS reasonable. And I understand it too. But if you are in a depressed or rural type area you have to get real creative in how you approach business. If you don't, its going to mean you earn little more than a subsistence living.
But there are a few things you have to do to make it in this type market. First off, 'normal', run of the mill work won't get you far. ANd chances are you will have some yokel down the street who will offer to do it for less than what is reasonable.
You have to think bigger... and better.
Why just do business within a 'reasonable driving distance'? Especially if the area you are in has a limited market for the high end work. If I were to do that I would leave a tremendous amount of money on the table.
Back when I had a 'normal' sign shop we offered ONLY design and sandblasted and dimensional signs. Quite simply, I turned down the plain old flat painted boards even though we did have a fair amount of call for them. I sent the folks who insisted on this style work down the road to my competition. I didn't WANT to do them and even more importantly didn't want to be known for that type work.
We did a good sign business too. And our work became known far and wide. I got requests from up to a thousand miles away for logo design and signage. And to my knowlege I never had to compete for the work either. It wasn't about price.
I also specialized in historical murals. I traveled many, many thousands of miles for that work and did over a 100 murals to date. This work also wasn't about price.
During this time we lived in Chemainus, Brtish Columbia, population 3,500. When we moved there it wasn't much of a town but we with the help of others there we created a tourist attraction which ultimately had over 400,000 visitors each year. Build it and they will come. We did it on a shoestring budget too. It was about hard work and sweat, not government handouts and grants or big business.
Since then we've moved to a much smaller town (Yarrow - population 1,100) and business continues to thrive. We've only done three jobs (design only)locally in the last four years with the exception of our own projects (Giggle Ridge and our own shop/studio). The primary purpose of our own projects (aside from the giggles they give us) is to be a showcase for our work... no sane client would ever go to these extremes. But I can't expect to sell this type work unless I show I personally believe in this type quality. I put my money where my mouth is.
It works beyond my wildest expectations and I have a ton of fun in the process. Best of all I get to live the dream.
If I wanted to do more 'normal' type sign work (and I do give it serious thought from time to time) I'd change my business considerably from what it is now. I'd still do outrageous work - only on a much smaller scale. Monumental signage is something I'd tackle. I'd go after the fancy gold and glass work. Very high end dimensional carved signage would be another type work I'd give a go. And dimensional plasma cut and welded sculptural signage would definitely be on the menu. Plus a few other things I haven't yet though of... none of it 'ordinary'.
I'd certainly be available for these types of work on a local basis, but I wouldn't limit myself to that market. It's much too small. I think it wouldn't take long to become known all over for the type of work I'd want.
I suspect my market area would actually grow considerably from what it is now. After all, you can ship smaller (than I do now) works of art and signage just about anywhere. With the benefit of a top knotch website and modern technology there's no limit of what might be accomplished.
And I still would turn down flat signage. There's lots of folks EVERYWHERE who do that type work.
I think you can live just about anywhere and do well if you tackle it right. It's about doing absolutely top knotch work, and nothing less.
Build it and they will come. And you will get to charge top dollar for it too.
Mike's article stated (in brief) that Gary Anderson was doing top notch jobs in a very small area and that it's possible that he could go anywhere and establish the same type of work. This was in reply to so many that say "You can't sell that type work here".
Jackson also sited several other folks that were doing the same thing in a very small or low income area. He even used me as an example.
Jill...if the surly guy's customers are coming to you then you should be getting the same thing that he does...right?
[ December 14, 2006, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: Raymond Chapman ]
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
Thanks for picking up this post Raymond... It saves me re-typing...
Its not often I get to quote myself but here goes...
quote:Wanting to stay in a particular area for personal reasons IS reasonable. And I understand it too. But if you are in a depressed or rural type area you have to get real creative in how you approach business. If you don't, its going to mean you earn little more than a subsistence living.
But there are a few things you have to do to make it in this type market. First off, 'normal', run of the mill work won't get you far. ANd chances are you will have some yokel down the street who will offer to do it for less than what is reasonable.
You have to think bigger... and better.
Why just do business within a 'reasonable driving distance'? Especially if the area you are in has a limited market for the high end work. If I were to do that I would leave a tremendous amount of money on the table.
Its been a while since I wrote the above but I still believe it. We still do only the very top high end work in our shop... nothing else. Word IS spreading in our local market and far beyond. I currently have quotes out for wonderful projects in the Carribean, Eastern Canada, the Midwest US, and Texas (look out Raymond!) as well as locally. All the projects are high dollar and top shelf.
I don't for a minute believe that what I do can't be done by many of the other folks here and everywhere. Luckily these same folks don't believe that. And that's all that keeps me in my lonely (but FUN and profitable) market.
IT WORKS!
-grampa dan
Posted by Jill Marie Welsh (Member # 1912) on :
OK here's one for you all.... I am out getting the mail, no biggie. Suddenly a horn honks, nearly giving me a heart attack. I turn around and it is my original "client from Hell", who nearly causes a wreck pulling up alongside my driveway on a busy 4-lane highway. "Hey Jill!" he hollers. "We're looking for a place, do you know where it is?" "Where?" I ask, trying to be helpful. He then rattles off the name of my newest competition "XX Signs". I tell him directions, which he can't understand so I have to repeat over the drone of traffic. Off he drives without so much as a thank you. My daughter says I shouldn't have told him the correct location. But this is a guy who won't pay more that $25 for anything, whom I "fired" two years ago. Who also got some foundation to paint "MAIL POUCH" on his barn for free this past summer. Spread the wealth I say! Love....Jill
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
I didn't know you lived on a busy 4 lane highway.... sounds like an awesome location and opportunity!
-grampa dan
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
And so....?
This sounds like a smart mouthed question, I know. But what was the purpose of the story?
It appears as if you are giving evidence of why you can't do first class work in your area (and get paid for it)...because of jerks like you described.
Does his actions determine your worth? Do you change your attitude because he has such a poor one? Sure, it's upsetting, but why allow him to control the way you think?
In another post you cited how someone had been appreciative of what you had done. Two opposing attitudes. Which one would you rather pattern yourself after?
Jerks are not going to leave this earth. They are here to stay. But I don't have to let them get inside my head and turn me around.
I'm convinced that we all have self fulfilling prophecies. We will become the way we think. If it's negative, that's the way we will see the world and everything in it. Just the opposite is also true.
I'm not picking on you Jill...you just were standing in the right place for me to make a point.
[ December 14, 2006, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: Raymond Chapman ]
Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
Actually, Ray, this guy also pestered me (and everyone else) in my hardware store. He'd come in with the sale ad and make sure he was charged correctly for each item. We all hated to see him. He even said "Oh I thought you were so busy with signs? Why are you working here?" And I replied that our economy had slowed down and I needed to feed my family.
I always would have a set retort I planned to say to him if he ever showed up on my property, as I couldn't really bawl him out at the hardware store. But yesterday I was so shocked that I just told him the other guy's location. My mom told me I should have said "Get the hell out of my yard" to him, which was what I'd planned to say!
He's a jerk. Nuff said. I think I just posted the story to illustrate the mentality here, and why it's damn hard for me to be a happy-clappy. Plus it felt so insulting to me.
But yes, I'd rather focus on my "good" clients (I have a couple) thank God! OK I'll stop whining now. Got any cheese? I could go for some Gouda. Or Co-Jack. And some Triscuits. And a beer!
Love....Jill
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
I heard beer... did someone mention beer?
Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
Iron City dontchaknow Brooce. But no 3-Bean salad for you! St. Cloud would have to change its name to Stink Cloud! Love....Jill
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
IC in da metal cans dere... Oooooooooooooofffdah!
No 3 bean salad?!?!?1 I will settle fer some chipped ham and some lebanon baloney sandwiches... with yellow sharp american cheese... on Town Talk bread.
![[Rolling On The Floor]](graemlins/rolf.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[I Don t Know]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
), and allowed my to do what I have wanted to do and even some things I didn't... LOL!![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[Bash]](graemlins/bash.gif)
I charged and recieved a design fee, but, as you know when they are willing to pay for design, you often put in more than you are compensated for. 