Okay, here's where I get to show my ignorance. There's always been someone else around to worry about the finer details of installation.
This is a job I'll probably be starting in a couple of weeks. I won't be installing it at the site; however, I do need to mount the sign to the bracket, or at least have it ready to mount with hardware.
The sign will be made, most likely, out of 3/4" painted pvc (such as sintra), and it's 30" in diameter, mounted to a 36" scroll bracket. It was originally going to be a rectangle, which would have been easier because it could mount directly to the brackets on the scroll. Now, however, it's a circle so it will be hanging. I don't know if I should use chains to hang it with (see thin red boxes), my concern is wind and if the pvc will be heavy enough to withstand it. Also, I don't know if eye hooks of some sort will hold up drilled into the top of the sign or if I should mount it from the face with bolts or perhaps there is another type of fastener I could use?
There are many of these types of brackets used downtown here. A lot of those tend to be under awnings though and this one is exposed. I may go take a look and see how they are installed, but in the meantime any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks! Posted by Bill Lynch (Member # 3815) on :
I would use two standard sign hanger brackets (the u shaped ones) bolted to the sign then use a steel strap between the sign hangers and the bracket.These can be bolted to the hangers at the sign and s hooked to rings on the scroll bracket. I don't like chain for these, too much chance to whip around in the wind. Also I would never use screw eyes, too much chance for them to pull out.
Posted by Ken Henry (Member # 598) on :
Hi Tracey. Under no circumstances should you consider using an eye bolt/screw to fasten your sign to the bracket. The swinging in the wind will almost always work the eye bolt loose and when that happens, you'd best hope that no one is under it.
What I'd recommend using are stainless steel sign hangers, which allow bolting completely through the sign, and providing a hole through which the sign can be fastened using a quick link.
Here's the hardware device you need, and it's available from a Letterhead Merchant;
While there, it might be a good idea to familiarize yourself with some of the other hardware items they have that are "sign specific", and are less prone to failure.
Hope this information helps.
Posted by ScooterX (Member # 2023) on :
I'm gonna go out on a limb here, and disagree with people who probably know more than i do.
1. This sign weighs next to nothing. It's what, 5 pounds? The hardware is gonna weigh almost as much as the panel. 2. You're in Ventura, where the weather is relatively mild (no snow, sleet, blizzards, and hurricanes only every 25 years), so the only issues are wind, minimal rain and UV.
My biggest concern is that since the sign is light, it will be more prone to swinging (flapping) around in heavy wind. (note: I switched to using MDO, which is heavier, for this sort of sign. The heavier panels seem to flap less.)
Those metal sign brackets are AWESOME ... on a larger sign. on a 30" circle, they'll look clumsy and overkill. I'd use a 3.5" long screw eye, drill the hole, squeeze in some Liquid Nails or other construction adhesive, and hang it with chain. Keep the chain as short as you can.
For the flapping issue, I'd also do one other thing... Add a third screw eye to the building side of the sign, and attach a short horizonal chain to the face of the building. That will keep the sign panel from swinging around too much.
If you can't do that, and if the panel is close enough to bump into the building, then put a 3" long piece of something to cushion the edge. Sandblast mask, VHB tape, or a rubber "button" like the ones you put under furniture to protect the floor.
I've hung a fair number of similar sized signs in San Francisco, and haven't had a problem yet. (oldest one is going on 7 years). My guess is that the business will move, change, die, or get a new logo long before the hardware fails.
Bring two pairs of plyers when you go to install it, so you can remove any extra links of chain, if you need to.
Posted by Steve Purcell (Member # 1140) on :
I would use a 5/16" or 3/8" x 4" stainless eye screw in a properly sized pilot hole. I'd also suggest stainless s-links, which will minimize the wear by friction. There's no way these will back out.
A fancier method would be to form strap hangers from 1/8 x 3/4 cold rolled steel, but that would require a little welding.
Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :
Basic Liquid nails is not an exterior product, but I believe they do make an exterior version.
Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
Hiya Tracie, If you want easy and durable, I'd follow Bill & Ken's suggestion and use the sign hanger. It's what I would do. Using "I" hooks mounted into the sign with epoxy would be an alternative which would be cost effective too. But I would be cautious if the sign weighed more than a few lbs. To do it right, you need to drill a hole that flairs out into the sign so the plug won't wiggle out over time. Here's a pic... Also, if you use epoxy, be sure to paint it. It can discolor and fail over time.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
Posted by William DeBekker (Member # 3848) on :
Tracie, I might be speaking out of turn here. But I would first check with your local City Planning,Engineer/Code enforcment(I don't know your permitting procedures there but I would think CA would deffently have something) and ask them what is required for that type of sign. I know here it is very strict for something going over a pedestrian walkway. (Windloads Exposure rating ETC.) IF I had to do that here we would have to form a metal ring that the sign would set into and the metal would be attached to the bracket via chain and closed link Connectors. Our Sign Code reads that no Combustable materals may be used as a structual support over or on areas that pedestrians may walk.. (Complicated way of saying no Wood/Plastic/Foam etc can be used as self supporting)
Posted by ScooterX (Member # 2023) on :
hey guys, this sign only weighs 5 pounds. You'd really use a steel strap on a 5 pound plastic sign panel?
(30" diameter circle, is just under 5 square feet; and 3/4" Sintra or Celtec is about 1 lb/sq ft.)
Posted by William DeBekker (Member # 3848) on :
Scooter, Thats why I was saying Check with your local Codes. Here I would have no Choice. I have to or they would not allow or issue a permit for the sign to be hung in the business district. (Plus PVC up here would not be used. To much expansion and contraction for our area where we can litterally have a 70 to 90 degree temp Change in 6 hours) Just Happen on Monday. Was 78 during the day and a front
Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
Hiya Scoot, Did you ever carry a sign in the wind? Even though it may hang and swing freely, a good gust of wind can really put some stress on it. If it doesn't break in the first windstorm, over time, that stress will cause the connection to fail.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
Posted by Dave Draper (Member # 102) on :
Hi Tracie,
My first red flag on a hanging PVC (Sintra) is that the sign can/will crack around the mounting holes.
Just to be safe, makes sure there is enough metal on both sides of the sign where the bolt goes through to keep the above from happening. Posted by Bill Lynch (Member # 3815) on :
Yep, I try to never use chain on these installs. Chains can let it wobble inthe wind, with straps it just swings back and forth. Use steel because aluminum will wear away. I also never try to use a "check chain". If it's a swinging sign, let it swing, otherwise make it a fixed install. I wouldn't use PVC, probably .5" signply for a little more stength and weight, but it should be OK as long as it's not fastened too close to the edge.
Posted by Jerry VanHorn (Member # 4704) on :
If you have someone who can weld for you try this. We would use 1/8" flat metal and form to the shape of the sign. Weld wrought iron to it and make your loops or hinge point for the mount to the wall bracket. I would steer away from chains as they will let your sign whip in the wind causing major problems. Having just two hinge points will make the sign more stable. Drill and screw formed metal to your sign. I would try to use 3" stainless screws.
Posted by Tracie Johnson (Member # 6117) on :
Thanks for all the suggestions. You guys gave me a lot to chew on.
Originally the sign was going to be MDO and rectangle, but now this lady's landlord also wants a directory in a nice panel shape mounted to the exterior wall on the building and I thought I could have the pvc shape cut with nice beveled edges for that. Also, I have a guy here with a router bed that will cut a full sheet of any substrate, in any design, whatever will fit, for $75.00. I figured I could get the circle, a couple of suite signs and the directory all out of the same piece. That's why I decided on pvc for the circle. Also, I found 3/4" was less than I thought, so I can do 3/4" pvc. I was thinking that painted correctly, it should last as long as the mdo, but maybe I'm barking up the wrong substrate.
If I do mount to the face though, I thought I'd glue washers to both sides of the pvc where I insert the bolts and prime and paint them to match the sign. I still need to drive downtown and see how some of those are mounted.
Jerry, I really like that idea, it definitely looks stable, but I've already given an estimate, and I don't think it's in her budget. She's moving her business, and already has an existing clientele, her signs are just so they can find her, so she's probably not willing to spend to much more on the sign. I will keep that in mind next time I price one of these. I'm sure I can find someone who's able to do it.
Posted by Jerry VanHorn (Member # 4704) on :
Something else we do when routing quicky PVC signs is laminate them with HP Vinyl. Then rout through the vinyl color to expose the white of the board. The same idea as PolyCarve material. You can also paint with a vinyl ink or FUSION paint by Krylon then carve. Blow off the dust and hang.
Posted by Brad Gebert (Member # 7610) on :
Maybe a little late for this post, but useful information just the same.
In our new Bracket Hardware offering at SignBracketStore.com Hooks and Lattice now sells BLACK Coated 10 & 12 Gauge Stainless Steel jack chain along with Stainless Steel Lag Eye Bolts, Lag Hook Bolts and S-Hooks. http://www.hooksandlattice.com/banner-sign-bracket-hardware.html
We will continue to expand our stainless steel and metal sign hanging hardware offering as we find, develop and/or manufacture useful products to help the sign industry hang signs.
Please let me know what products you might need to better hang signs.
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
Hi Brad, Something we see here is chains that have the links welded together to make them rigid. I don't know if it is something that is just done here or all over, but it seems to be fairly popular, as you can have the look of a freely swinging sign but it won't move when those prairie winds work up speed. Even very heavy freely hanging signs are a bad idea here.
Posted by Darcy Baker (Member # 8262) on :
for heavier applications, King architectural decorative balusters make a nice alternative to chain but requires welding.
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There's always been someone else around to worry about the finer details of installation.
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