Yep, that is the question. Say, a sign-maker(painter, vinyl jockey, striper, airbrush artist, etc.) has a shop near you, maybe an hour or two away, are you friendly to them? Would you be friendly if they walked in your door to see you?
Another question, what is a Letterhead? Does the definiton include the fact that we help each other out, share knowledge, & continue our trade through others who carry it on after we are gone?
I also want to thank ANYone who was kind enough to take the time to help me, or accept my phone calls, & anyone who has responded to my emails. Thanks to you all! THAT is a Letterhead to me!
[ August 16, 2006, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: Bobbie Rochow ]
Posted by Stefanie Fox (Member # 6523) on :
Yes, of course I am friendly to all sign folks, nearby or not. I try to be friendly to every person I meet.
Posted by bruce ward (Member # 1289) on :
I like pat whatley, and a larger sign company that does alot of work with me. and I know the other guys but we dont be hanging out or nothing.
Pat taught me flexisign and plottering and stuff. i really owe him. Ill get him 6 pack or something
Posted by Jill Marie Welsh (Member # 1912) on :
Well, there is this signgal from Jamestown who stopped in one day. She even called first to give me a heads-up. We had a nice little visit. When I first got divorced I drove around to all the local shops, seeing if they needed employees. Nearly everyone I met was great, except for one guy who was a real diva.
When I found out about the Letterheads I went to a few more shops...nobody cared. One guy who owned a print shop looked at me like I had a third eye or something.
When I started hosting meets, I invited the locals to stop by. Only one, Signs by Rick, did. I still send them all Christmas cards. Sometimes I'll call Rick if I need a piece of vinyl. He'll stop in sometimes to tell me a dirty Nun joke.
Last year at the Jamboree I was thrilled when Emlenton's Doug Elder stopped by! His signs are stellar examples of hand-painting.
But for the most part, people around here don't see me as a Letterhead....just a competitor. I do see a few folks at the Pioneer show every year, and they are nice to me.
love....jill
Posted by Dave Draper (Member # 102) on :
Well,
If the guy/shop is nice. Trouble is some shops are not nice back, in fact they are pretty rude.
If they have been "badmouthing" they probably feel pretty awkward when you want to be chummy!
Some shop translate "the competition" as "the enemy" for some reason.
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Yep...Friendly with all the local shops here. If I need some vinyl in a hurry and the suppliers don't have any, I can always call them, and vice versa.
I use one particular shop for backlit sign installs, since they have a crane and bucket truck.
Hell, I'm even friends with that Ken Henry guy!!! Posted by Jon Butterworth (Member # 227) on :
The dozen or so shops in Toowoomba (pop: 100,000) seem to all get along reall well with each other.
We often help each other out. If you run out of, or need something you know will take a while to get freighted up from Brisbane, it's not hard to find one who will sell or even lend you some to get you by in a hurry. I've even provided customer's logos to a "competitor" when I was not in a position to do the job myself.
In fact the other day I was across town doing a vinyl instal on a tanker and "Murphy's Law" struck. Just finishing, I realised I had lost the "dot" off one of the "i"s. Of course I had forgotten to bring the scrap vinyl pack we carry in the van for such emergencies. It was a 30 minute round trip back to my shop to get a 1/2" square of white vinyl!
Just around the corner from where I was working was a "vinyl jockey" I hadn't spoken to in years. Not only did he gladly give me a scrap of vinyl but even offered to cut it for me!
"Do unto others" ... it always comes back at you one day.
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
Yes Life's too short Money and competition isn't #1 in my life.
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
Donna owns the closest shop to me... about a block away... and we are good friends. The Gidneys own a shop in town and we are good friends too.
I drop in to some of the other shops in town occasionally although they have never returned the favor.
Donna and the Gidneys were at the Picnic and both helped out too which was very much appreciated.
Any Letterhead is welcome in my shop... no secrets here. I'll help them out any way I can. I'm proud to call them friend.
-grampa dan
Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
I get along well with all the shops around here. We constantly send each other work and bail each other out of jams.
The local FastSIGNS franchisee and I are on very good terms. We did a major monument sign project together and both made good money on the job. Much of the time, I was dealing directly with his customer but he knows I won't go behind his back and take him away.
Posted by Jane Diaz (Member # 595) on :
It depends... We try to be nice to everyone, but there are limits! We have one guy who only calls us when he wants something (like the vinyl he forgot to order). A couple places are users...people that say, "What's in it for me?" "Buy this from me." "Help me, so I can do this but forget it if YOU need something!" "Me, Me, Me". Doesn't take long to figure them out. We had to take one guy to court to get paid! But pretty much every sign guy in the area has been stung by him. We have a new guy, just opened up about three blocks away, who does sound & security systems with a vinyl cutter in the back room. He's been in a couple times and it is REAL obvious he is price shopping. "How much if you were to do this?" Never orders anything. I'm sure he is just telling people "Those Diazes will charge___, but I will do it for ___." That's O.K. He can be as cheap as he wants...I will send "cheap" people to him! He can have 'em! But honestly the majority of the sign people around here are wonderful! We have a young guy about 10 miles away who we really enjoy spending time with...fair, honest and a hard worker. He started by learning hand lettering first and he now has a plotter. We have several large shops in the area who do the big, highway illuminated stuff. We refer jobs to other shops that do things we don't do all the time. We refuse to underbid other shops and have had a few customers try to bring in others' sketches. We refuse to even look at them. We will bid, but not copy or even look at other sign shops' bids.
So there you go. I think you get what you give! We might lose some work by trying to be good guys, but oh well! I just don't see what is accomplished by being mean and not helping people who try to be friendly and ethical towards us. But again, I may forgive, but I seldom forget!
[ August 16, 2006, 05:57 PM: Message edited by: Jane Diaz ]
Posted by Amy Brown (Member # 1963) on :
We seem to all get along for the most part. I've watched many of the jerk owners fold up. Guess it pays to be nice. I get a lot of referral business for sandblasted dimensional work from local shops who don't do this type of thing. In return, I send them people for things we don't really do here. I even had a competitor cut me some vinyl once when my plotter broke and then I took them some rolls of vinyl that I never used.
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Friendly?
Heck, one of my "competitors" (husband and wife team) invited me to go on a cruise with a bunch of their family and friends!
I buy a lot of my vinyl from them, they're a Neschen distributor. I call 'em up a couple times a week when I need material and joke "Hey I have some lunch money for you guys today!"
There's another local shop, another husband and wife team that are actually registered on this very bullboard but don't post much, that I'm on friendly terms with. We don't hang out and all that but they've helped me out and they're welcome to call me if they ever need anything.
Another guy used to be one of my customers. He owned a car/truck customizing shop and added vinyl equipment but he's since dropped the customizing because the market here for that is non-existant. He kept the vinyl equipment though. I don't see him often but we're friendly. I've helped him out with design and installs and he's helped me with truck projects in the past.
The other couple shops I used to be on good terms but they've both changed hands several times over and now they're both owned by total DINKS. I mean, I go in to either of them and introduce myself then want to spend money with them for services I don't do, and get treated like I have a boob growing out of my forehead.
Man, if they treat their other customers like they treated me it's a wonder they can stay in business.... or maybe the fact they change hands so often is a good indicator they can't.
Posted by Ron Costa (Member # 3366) on :
Used to be friendly to all the local sign people.....til Rapid got into the Bubba Burgers!
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
Nearby as in the same county, no we're not friendly. But Mark & Al are in adjoining counties, Jill & Gary are both 2 counties away & they're all invited to stop in any time. Mark's cut stuff for me before, met up with Al for dinner, Jill knows I'm a phone call away & I've popped in Gary's when I was up there ancestring.
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
yeah we are all friendly here too. heck one of my best friends works for the competition...its never been a problem.
Posted by Mark Matyjakowski (Member # 294) on :
Bobbie, I can't picture you not being friendly to anybody. If they don't return it, it's thier loss.
Posted by Duncan Wilkie (Member # 132) on :
Well, there's probably a couple hundred sign shops within an hour, so I don't know a fraction of them. The ones I've delt with have been good for the most part. We very seldom compete with any of them. We are pretty specialized and have an excellent client base and reputation in the community. We actually do contract work for quite a few sign businesses and sell our standoff line to many more. I'm willing to help out if someone phones me for advice about signs. We also provide students enrolled in the local Sign Art Program with a position when they are completing the work experience portion of the program. As well, I am on the Sign Arts Program Advisory Committee where I work with others in the Sign industry in adapting the curriculum to todays methods. We are also members of the Alberta Sign Association. I really enjoy interaction with local sign industry people.
Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
...as well as loco sign industry people.
Posted by Tracie Johnson (Member # 6117) on :
And that's all of us, right David?
Posted by Murray MacDonald (Member # 3558) on :
A buddy down the road has a vinyl shop, and we've been helping each other out for several years. When we had our meet this summer, he was in there like a dirty shirt, and got really turned on to all the possibilities... now he's painting, ordered up a bunch of carving tools, designed a new logo and has a whole new perspective on the business. I see a great deal more collaboration in our future and I welcome it. Oh yeah, he's also become a resident! Letterheads rock! MUR
Posted by Pat Welter (Member # 785) on :
When I first started in the business 18-19 years ago, I contacted many of the sign shops within the area...They were all standoffish. I even had threatening calls form a few ( quite hurtfull), but then I discovered letterheads & was quite unsure about going to a meet because of what happened in the past, but in 1998 Larry Whan of Banff Signs held a meet and through phone conversations with him ,We finally went...The best thing I'd ever done to advance my business and discover others with the same passion. Met several great people now good friend at that meet, fellow Saskatchewanite Suelynn Sedor, Bill Riedel, Grampa Dan, and many more... We've been to many meets since, and have held a few of our own in which we have invited the shops who handed out the verbal abuse, but they have never shown up...All I can say is, thier lose.
Posted by Bobbie Rochow (Member # 3341) on :
I had to leave, then came back to read all of these. This is great!
Jilly, I will have to come & bug you again sometime, you were so gracious & sweet!
And thank you very much, Mark, I truly needed to hear that. Coming from you, it just feels so good! I have so much respect for you.
There is a young fella that posts on here now & then, & he is only about 30-40 minutes away, & he is one good guy, Ryan Ursta. He has welcomed me to stop in, & I never have taken the time to. I think I may have to do that real soon here!
One guy across the lake from me, maybe 10 minutes away, used to be nasty to me because when I first started I was underbidding him, & I HONESTLY did not mean to! I began to ask prices for this & that & put mine up there with the other guys, so I would not do that. Believe me, I WANTED to ask more, but didn't know what things went for at the time! Saw him at the supplier one day & he was still nasty, asking me if I was still giving my work away. I tried to tell him no, I had learned, but he didn't want to hear it. It hurt. I had liked him.
Posted by Patrick Whatley (Member # 2008) on :
I'm about to get a lot friendlier with them. They'll all be so happy when I send them all the copies of all the bootleg programs I can find. I'm sure they'll all talk about what a great guy I am right up until I turn them in for the reward money. Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
I used to be friendly with Ron 'til he brought up the Bubba Burgers...
Most of the other sign shops around here are on good terms. We have a statewide sign association and I've met nearly every member, many who are great folks and very giving.
What is a Letterhead... Anyone with a passion for making signs. I've met a lot of sign makers who have never heard of Letterheads, but they sure fit the bill. They love their work, are willing to share and pass on their knowledge and craft.
Rapid
Posted by Bobbie Rochow (Member # 3341) on :
Ah, but Ray, the real question is...are they still a Letterhead if they are selfish with their knowledge & will not share & help others to learn? Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
I love everyone and will help anyone as well, just don't lie, cheat or steal from me. I've visited many sign people and stripers throughout my travels and have always been an honest guy with all of them. Still some just don't get it. Had a conversation 2 days ago with a retired street rod builder and striper person from San Jose who retired here, speaking with him was rediculous and boring as his first words after my introduction was ' why did you really call me, it went downhill from there real fast. Most others welcome me, I've visited Rick Sacks, the Purcells and many more and we just had a grand ol'time.
Posted by captain ken (Member # 742) on :
I am not only 'friendly' with as many as a dozen shops in the area, I am also 'friends' with a few. in the next town over there are 3 shops i talk to regularly, we call each other to borrow supplies or a few feet of vinyl and talk shop. It seems I am some what of a go-to-guy for some of them, I also do some sub-contracting for them, doing airbrush and gold leaf work. I sub out the print work and electrical stuff to them. Hosting / co-hosting Mass Mayhem has helped develop relationships with other "Letterheads" who may live down in RI or up in NH but still are some of the best friends you could want. People like the Peaches, the Z's Karyn, Caroline, Rapid, Gary Cole, Jerome, Fearon, Burris and a few others, have made it to Mass Mayhem every time, a strong relationship develops over those 6+ years, you look forward to seeing them again, you can't wait to show them some new technique and see what the hell the peaches are coming up with next (they are always so innovative). To me thats what Letterheads is, its not only sharing tips and shop talk, but a special friendship that, through the craft, forms a bond like a family. its a bit difficult to explain any of you that have seen me and Jay Zee together might think we are brothers, and I look to his dad Mike almost like my dad. Karyn is kinda like the weird cousin up north!
[ August 17, 2006, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: captain ken ]
Posted by Ian Stewart-Koster (Member # 3500) on :
ditto to Bushie's statement. I can & do call up any of half a dozen signies for a lead on some bit of installation equipment or something I'm after, or I send a bit of work their way at times when I can't fit it in our timetable.
Posted by Dawud Shaheed (Member # 5719) on :
There's a sign guy named Ken one city over that I keep dodging, but other than that I like all the local sign people. (just kidding, Ken) I plan on coming up to see you tomorrow. Thanks for the reminder. I do a lot of wall painting stuff so I like to get in with the quicky sticky shops around town so they call me when something like that comes walking in their door and they don't know what to do. There's plenty of business to go around , so I don't see why anyone would be nasty with a fellow sign guy or gal unless they deserved it for some other reason, ya dig?
Posted by Judy Pate (Member # 237) on :
I get along with most of the local shops. Christy of Christy's Signs and I have ordered MDO and other materials together. A couple of other shops do installations for me. I order digital prints from a couple of other shops but there are a couple of shops I avoid. As for a letterhead just stopping by...I've had Dave Grundy and Shirl, RT and Darren,Steve & Barb, and Shelia come for a visit. But as for locals..only Christy visits me regularly.
Posted by Kimmy Fitzgerald (Member # 5109) on :
Dawud,
Please feel free to stop by........just remember we are not responsible for what you do after you leave.
We look forward to meeting you!
Kimmy and Captain Ken
Posted by Kimmy Fitzgerald (Member # 5109) on :
LYNN, LYNN city of sin...never come out the way you came in.....................
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
In a small community that generates enough work for one shop to stay busy, sometimes it gets difficult when folks open a new shop and have very little committment. They'll leave after the summer busy time and move elsewhere after lowballing some jobs from my long time customers. Makes it embarassing for the customer to come back and for me if they do also.
I also have found customers embarassed when they come in and find me chatting with my visiting competitor that they left to come to me for.
I chat with the competition when we meet in the lumber yard, but stay out of their shope and don't invite them to mine other than for social events and Letterhead meets.
Even when I go several towns away and go into a sign shop far away enough to not be a competitior and see them doing work for someone near me, I find that difficult. I need to ponder why didn't they come to me? and if I see them in public and the opportunity arrises should I ask them why? There are emotions that underly the business stuff that are real that initiate self evaluation, healthy sometimes, destructive at others.
So in answer to your querry, I'm friendly from what seems a healthy distance.
Posted by Ricky Jackson (Member # 5082) on :
As a policy, I don't fraternize with other sign people here; it's just not good business. I tried it about 20 years ago; I invited some newbies to my shop where Al Grand did a gold leaf demo. I loaned them books and did demos and answered questions they had. One of them that had a shop in the town next to us took out a big ad in MY phone book and stabbed me in the back at every opportunity. I even caught them price shopping me!!!
If you can trust your competitors and even work together sometimes that's a good thing. I tried but it just doesn't work for me here.
[ August 17, 2006, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: Ricky Jackson ]
Posted by Bobbie Rochow (Member # 3341) on :
That is so awful Ricky to have to put up with that. I can understand where you are coming from.
Rick, I understand what you are saying, too. It DOES hurt to see my competitor get a customer who was always mine. But you know what helps me? I keep insisting to myself that if I was to have the job, the Lord would have given it to me. Oh yes, I still get the initial stab in the gut, but I remind myself until I get it in my head & my heart. Sometimes this takes alot of repeating too!
Joey, you can drive out to Jamestown PA & teach me some pointers any day!!!!!!! I will welcome you with open arms & fists full of brushes! Lol!
Posted by William DeBekker (Member # 3848) on :
There are about 7 shops within a 5 mile radius of us and One Shop "Colorado Sign Systems" we get along great with. He actually does all my installs now and I do all his vinyl and many of his designs. A couple of shops we are friendly competitors but like Rick we just keep a friendly distance.
Then there are other shops that I just don't care to talk to or deal with at all.
Now with shops that are out of town I get along with great and we actually call and just biatch about each other (In a friendly way) and ask each other about what's happening in each others neck of the woods.
I will invite all the locals shops out of courtesy once we move and get ready to have a Letterhead/Routerhead/Goldhead Meet in a year or so.
Posted by Roy Frisby (Member # 736) on :
This post reminds me of a story I once heard about a poor Rattlesnake that was so cold. He was just about dead from the cold when alongs comes a mother opossum. The snake talks the opossum into letting him warm up in her pouch. She's hesitant but finally gives in to the snake's pleas for help. After the snake gets nice and warm inside the opossum's pouch he bites the opossum. The opossum crys out and asks why he bit her after she had shown him kindness. The rattlesnake replied, "Yes, you were kind to me, but you still knew that I was a snake."
Posted by Doug Bernhardt (Member # 1568) on :
I admit to some reservations about info sharing with local sign companies....As a rule we have all been friends (at least the ones I know) etc but in the last few years I see a few of them who want to kick my but...and I can't blame them. I do sort of have a lock on all the local pubs etc and technology has changed the market. A few weeks ago my sign installer brought me a foto of a pub in town I once did a sign for(another location)...the new one was my work exactly...all the flourishes etc..just not mine. It did seem a bit static as the job didn't suit the space but hell, there it was. In a way I get peeved about that sort of unoriginality but I don't really blame the other shop...It's my fault that I wasn't able to satisfy the client enuf that he chose another business.
Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
I had one nearby sign shop that the dude was friendly to my face... needing to borrow a roll of pre-mask or vinyl all the time.
But when he'd see my helper at the Sign Supply house, he's say in front of all the folks there: "Oh you work for Nappy Signs.." Every now and then he'd vary his humor with "Crappy Signs."
Well, I told my helper not to worry about it, we'd rent the Billboard that towered over his store and plaster our logo on it, and see how he liked that.. Unfortunately he went out of business before the billboard became available.
I feel bad for him... hahahahahahahahahaha.
Posted by Dawud Shaheed (Member # 5719) on :
how does a sign business go out of business?
that amazes me. I stay in business every day with no storefront, not one yellow page ad, nothing, and I'm as busy as I could be just off word of mouth.
huh, sound like tgot waht was coming to him, Jon.
BTW, I went by Captain Ken's shop today and got the full letterhead rundown from a genuinely nice guy. I got to look at a wallfull of excellent panel Jams and other gift panels on his wall. I couldn't stay long though, my wife installed lojack on my worktruck and I can't stay in one place too long or she'll find me and ask me to fix something.
I get along with the neighbors pretty good as long as he doesn't whip out his mahlstick.
Posted by Tim (Member # 1699) on :
I get along great with the others around these parts. I like to visit when I'm nearby their shop and have time to shoot the sh*t. Any of them are just a welcome here at mine, and if there's something they need and I've got some, no problem, I might need to do the same someday.
I hear alot of folks here talking about competition. I choose to think differently about that. I don't have any competition here, just people that happen to do the same thing I do for a living.
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
There's a guy in town that does digital printing and I enjoy his company and respect that part of his work. I send out my prints to be done by a shop a hundred miles away though. I would not want my customer to hear that someone saw the work being done in the competitors shop, and I would not trust the competitor with my files. If he needed something I'd lend it to him, most likely.
Another shop called and wanted to buy enough mag to do two signs he sold. I stock the stuff and he doesn't. It's not like he ran short in the midst of a rush job and would cut me a return piece when his roll came in, he just doesn't have the investment. I said no, I'm not a supplier.
Posted by Dawud Shaheed (Member # 5719) on :
you could've charged him enough to make your money and made a friend who might help you out when you need it.
oh, well
everybody's policy is different
Posted by Bill Wood (Member # 6543) on :
I have a situation that none of you have.This man owns a sign company here and I introduced him to my X wife They now have been married for 3 years. I'm always available to help him do a job when he gets in a bind and he always gives me the same courtesy.Since he married my X wife...I can't call him my competitor any more...I refer him as my HUSBAND-N-LAW This is not humor it's fact.
Posted by Denis de Leon (Member # 5844) on :
I try to be friendly with all the shops that I can. Unfortunately, the favor is not always returned. Some simply want to be left alone.
I've even tried to do business with a few but since they've given me retail pricing I take it that they're telling me to take my business elswhere - and I do.
I don't worry about other shops stealing my customers. If that would happen then I never really had a customer - a shopper maybe - but not a customer.
Life's too short. If they won't be friendly then I'll go my own way.
Posted by Jill Marie Welsh (Member # 1912) on :
I had a friendly, very tall guy who is good at applying reflective stripes drive 40 minutes here from Kittanning PA to help me letter a firetruck last Saturday. He worked tirelessly, would not accept payment, and saved my butt! Now that is a friend. love....jill
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
One of my "competitors" is an old school sign painter and does jam up good work too. He has sent me work several times, I've been to his shop, he's been to mine.
I just cut some vinyl for another competitor to get her out of a jam when her computer went on the blink. She was happy, that made me happy.
I've done design work and cut vinyl for another competitor and he stops by the shop once in awhile to say hi. Another competitor(no longer here) tried to tell me that this guy couldn't be trusted yada yada....But he's always been nice to me. So, I try to make "judgements" on my own and not just "he said she said".
I've cut vinyl and done design work for another competitor and we've also colaborated on jobs. He's come to my shop many times and I've been to his.
We've shared materials with another competitor, as well, and they were very grateful for the help. It's just better all the way around to try to be friends. It's much more fun.
Posted by Craig Sjoquist (Member # 4684) on :
well sure hope so, wave at all sign shop trucks etc, stop in say howdy when near, offer any help if needed and even learning how to ask for help ...just this past wkend pro signs n graphics came over & showed me something simple of how to, wow great guy thx if ya read this ....anyway learned long time ago that sharing allows you also to grow...anyway....THANK YOU & ENJOY LIFE
Posted by John Deaton (Member # 925) on :
Ive got around 15 people here now who use vinyl cutters. Not one of them is a sign shop. They are either printers or screenprinters that do it on the side. One of them is a window tinter that does signs also. He is constantly calling wanting to "borrow" some vinyl, coroplast, wire stands, etc. I finally cut him off last week, telling him that I keep this stuff in stock for myself, not him. The others, I know them ,but dont really have a relationship with them. Not one of them is serious about doing signs, they only bought a cutter to "make a fortune" on signs. I do have good relationships with the serious shops in the area, Russ Mills of Artcraft who is 35 miles south of me, and Mike Barnes of Signwerks who is 35 miles north of RUss. They are both full time sign people like me and do the same kind of work I do. If they were right in my town, the relationships would be the same, because they do good work, and take care of their businesses and are professionals. Id give them anything they need. Posted by Deb Fowler (Member # 1039) on :
Jay Allen's shop helped me out in a big way today:) all I needed was a little yellow vinyl and some plexi cut. He saved me a buttload of trouble getting it done. Hey Jay, I just wanted to thank you onboard for not letting me sink. So, I got to visit Kathy, Joe and Casey (the beautiful golden doggie) and was entertained too.) thanks a heap, neighbor.
Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :
Who has time to visit?!? I'm busy camping, or working.
Honestly, I think differently when I need an item. I can get it delivered overnight for $9 via bus. I don't call sign shops near me for supplies because they're located as far as the bus depot anyway.
Not to say I'm not friendly with the locals. I love to razz Dan about not washing his black truck from time to time and all that. Someone has to do it. Posted by Bobbie Rochow (Member # 3341) on :
When I first started out, I helped a nearby sign guy over the winter, then in Spring I went back on my own. He told me if I ever needed anything to call or come over, so I did. But you know, I began to nickle-dime him for vinyl. Even tho I paid him for it, it was a bother to him. One day I showed up & he charged me retail price for the 1 to 2 yards of vinyl, & I got the hint.
Actually, he did me a favor, because I learned not to lean on others all the time.
I don't see him often, but when I do, I don't feel the friendship I once did. It makes me feel bad. I like him, & he was my friend. I am only 20 minutes away from his shop, but there is lots of work for both of us, no need to be in competition with each other.
No matter what, I will try to keep on being his friend to him, even tho he obviously isn't the same toward me.
I had originally started this post because there have also been a few Letterheads I have e mailed that refuse to answer me. I do not know them, for them to have a grudge against me or anything. I found myself feeling horrible one day about it, worrying, just feeling bad. The rest of you make up for the few who are like this. Thank you again!!!
Posted by Jill Marie Welsh (Member # 1912) on :
Bobbie, apparently those Letterheads have forgotten to leave their egos at the door! I used to try to be like Little Mary Sunshine here in Letterville, just because I was so darn happy to be amongst my fellow sign makers. I'd get notes saying not to IM or sign stuff "love...jill" because so and so's wife or GF became offended by it. No longer do I sent group gropes (that's what I call'em) I only IM those I actually know, or those that seem "OK" to IM. It's understandable that a local shop might snub you, but to be given the cold shoulder from fellow brothers/sisters of the brush is just plain rude. love....jill
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
Hey Bobbie, If I've ever failed to email you back, it was an oversight on my part. SOmetimes I just get preoccupied with something and just plain forget. If I have, I apologize. You are definitely my friend! Posted by Bobbie Rochow (Member # 3341) on :
No, wayne & Jill, you both have been so good to know! Thank you!
And after being "snubbed" by a few, I had emailed a guy about an hour away from me & did not get a reply from him. I felt bad about it, then started this post, after all these "no replies".
Here, ten minutes after I had posted my last post, he called me, not even reading this thread!!!! He is a super-busy guy, & a VERY nice guy! I told him to jump on & read this thread about "our neighbors"!
I am anxious to meet him sometime, too. I am still glad I posted this thread, tho. I think it is an important subject. Thanks to all of you who shared your opinions.
Posted by Al Checca (Member # 2216) on :
I read this today and was thinking about this all afternoon. What would my comments be. Well I think Jane and many others say it right. I am always friendly and will help anyone how but “how friendly” I may be will be different. Our area here we also have 6 or so sign shops in a few mile area. One less than a mile down the road I would do anything at all for, If he needed me to help apply all night long then buckle up I’m there, no question asked and he would do the same. We are both vinyl Jockeys but to different deals completely what he does and we do. Other shops we help each other out with prints or corplast stuff like that. There are a few here in town I sure wouldn’t go out of my way to help because they are just sneaky plain and simple.
Then as Kissy said I also got lucky over the years to meet up with wonderful friends here at Letterville. I can recall making a call a few years back on a Sunday after reading a post here about a “Letterhead meet” on Rt. 8 Butler PA. Yep one of Jill’s first meets… I snuck up there that Sunday met some awesome folks, felt so out of place with all the talent I saw, and now you can’t keep me away from a “Meet”
Posted by Al Checca (Member # 2216) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jill Marie Welsh: I had a friendly, very tall guy who is good at applying reflective stripes drive 40 minutes here from Kittanning PA to help me letter a firetruck last Saturday. He worked tirelessly, would not accept payment, and saved my butt! Now that is a friend. love....jill
Bet he didn't need a ladder either..... Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
Bobbie, if I've ever ignored one of your emails, I apologize, it wasn't intentional. I think sometimes too, people's spam filters are throwing legitimate email away. I have a woman in town that I've been emailing for 2 weeks, NO answer, but I get her "mass emails". I've even replied to them so either her spam filters are out of whack, she can't figure out how to receive, just send email or she's just being rude. Posted by Kent Smith (Member # 251) on :
I am always friendly with all shops and find the response to be mostly positive. Maybe it is me but if you start with a positive attitude it is infectious. Here is something I wrote about 10 years ago, somewhat updated but the sentiment is still solid.
WHAT IS A LETTERHEAD? Kent Smith
I was stuck by the comment recently that the Letterheads are an elitist group who are only interested in pursuing the most complex and challenging aspects of the sign craft. For those in the know, that comment could not be further from the truth however it brings up the challenge to reiterate from where the Letterheads come.
As we prepare to enter the 31st year of the Letterheads movement we must remember that the original 7 were apprentices getting together to learn. While it is true that the antique crafts were what had been lacking in their schooling and old timers were usually unwilling to share accurate information, merely leaning gold leaf techniques or wood japanning is not the limit of interest. Maintaining the history of our trade, learning and developing new techniques and furthering the art of sign making are the primary goals.
In an international survey held a few years ago it became obvious that many individuals (most of whom are "Letterheads") wanted an answer to the question: WHAT or WHO IS A LETTERHEAD. Many have said they would like to join, if possible and wanted an application or the address of the main office of the organization. Too many of the survey respondents and recent inquiries as well referred to Letterheads as "THEM". Letterheads is a "WE" association. No one is "on the outside". Everyone contributes as they can, no matter their level of skill or knowledge.
A LETTERHEAD is a person related in some way to the creation of signs (whether sign-artist, supplier, spouse, descendent, best friend or parent) who wholeheartedly supports the exchange of information, the growth of the craft and the rediscovery of the arts of sign-making. (I avoid the word sign painting because so many other techniques are available for our use and no limitations should be put on our craft or the exchange of ideas). IDEALLY, a LETTERHEAD would take time from his own workday to instruct his competition. Few are truly that pure but we continue to strive to perfection.
Succinctly, we are an association of like-minded soles, almost 6000 strong as one of our mailing lists indicates, although no complete list will ever exist.
As determined by the survey and expressed by many of the most vocal Letterheads, there will be no formal organization of Letterheads, no dues, no officers, no sanctions. Meetings and their agendas are solely at the discretion of the host. Meeting dates are determined only by the "first to announce" principle. Some are limited in size due to topic or space and some are open to all. Our newsletters are the trade magazines and fax machines (and this and other BB's). Each individual who proclaims himself a Letterhead has a responsibility to improve the craft of signmaking. Strive for your own unattainable goals, help others when you can AND if you want a membership plaque for your wall, MAKE IT YOURSELF!
[ August 24, 2006, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: Kent Smith ]
Posted by Bobbie Rochow (Member # 3341) on :
Kent, that is what I wanted to read! Very good article, & thanks for posting it!
Posted by Brad Farha (Member # 931) on :
I'm friendly to them if I happen to run into them somewhere or if they call needing something, but I don't exactly socialize with them. I do send them customers that want jobs done that I know they do which I don't want to do.
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
Sharing information might be different than sharing inventory.
Posted by Jon Jantz (Member # 6137) on :
I'm friendly to their face, but if I see them putting up a job I bid on, I go around at night and pull some of the vinyl letters half off. Then the next day, I go by the customer and say.. Hmmm.. I see you got a sign from so and so... they are having a real problem getting their vinyl to stick lately.... good luck.
I usually only do this about 3 times per sign though, don't want any of them to get suspicious.
Posted by Dusty Campbell (Member # 4601) on :
Hopefully you're joking. Even though those kind of thoughts occasionally go through my head, I'd rather not suffer the bad karma.
I was outbid by someone the other day, and I simply told the lady that I hoped the other company knew what they were doing, and if they didn't meet her expectations to give me a call.
There is no way for a third of the price she'll get the same quality. Funny how often people come back to spend good money after bad.
A favorite quote of mine: "It's unwise to pay too much, but it's unwise to pay too little. When you pay too much you lose a little money, that is all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing you bought it to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot. It can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it's well to add something for the risk you run. And if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better." -John Ruskin
Edited to add: As far as being friendly to other signmakers near me, I try to be friendly, but if they're not, I'm not. I'm not a sign supply, but will do favors if I can, but if they're not reciprocated, then I'm not helping them out anymore. Not that I'm unforgiving, or keeping a detailed account of favors, but you can tell when someone turns on you.
[ August 27, 2006, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: Dusty Campbell ]
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
"ARE YOU FRIENDLY TO NEARBY SIGNMAKERS?"
Yes . . . and far-away ones too . . . . .
Posted by Bobbie Rochow (Member # 3341) on :
Sheila,,,.... where ARE you??????
Posted by Blake Koehn (Member # 5984) on :
So thats why those letters kept falling of that sign in downtown Canoe!!
I'LL REMEMBER THAT BRO-IN-LAW!!! Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
I'm In Alabama . . . you know that . . .
Posted by Joanna Barnett (Member # 6544) on :
Yeah for sure friends with all the sign shops i know or meet,.. I had a gentlement that came in about aweek ago from a sign shop about an hour and half away from here and we chated for a while then the next day he called to ask if he could use my computer and software for a couple hours to finish a project up that had to be done... and for sure i would let him but in the end he didnt need my shop but still you never know when you may need them and what u can learn from someone thats in the same biz!
Posted by Kent Smith (Member # 251) on :
Rick et al
We share supplies with everyone in town. We are two days away from delivery or a long frustrating trip to Denver so it pays for all of us. Yes there have been a few that take advantage but even those have returned the favor over the years. I have found that maintaining this positive friendly relationship pays off in positive feelings for our industry as a whole as seen from the viewpoint of the public. I also believe it makes the less scrupulous think twice before they speak ill of others in the trade. I have been saved more than once by the one I would least expect. We are obviously the shop everyone is friendly with but I hope for perfection.
Posted by Karen Wunch (Member # 3577) on :
I love other sign companies. We share installs and digital large format prints. We also work closely with screen- and tee-shirt printers that all share. At any given moment our bookkeeping is in a state of flux. "I owe this to this sign guy, but she owes me, less the job last week" Ad Nauseum! But it works for all of us. I think we're all related. ;0)
I've never been 'priced' by a competitor out-for-blood, that I know. If I feel like I'm being priced, of course!, I would share some screw-ball pricing--some so low and some so high they'd just run away, foaming at the mouth ... Just because I could.
Like 'Desiderata' says: "There will always be greater and lesser persons than yourself." {Shades of the '70's...I'm telling on myself.}
And, ultimately, there will ALWAYS be Greater and Lesser...Customers. Some fit us and some don't; and the misfits-for-us will always find another sign company that 'fits' them: Usually within their bad design ideas or their rock-bottom budget concept.
I particularly dislike the 'ultimate home manufatured signs' concept. It's the 'I build channel letters in the living room for half-price'; not UL-rated, but steal-a-sticker and it's okay. They don't carry insurance, nor are they available days, much less years, after the install...but all the customer remembers is, "Damned! They were cheap!" And when the store burns down, there's no recourse...and ALL sign companies look bad.
Rapid told me about his experience with local informal 'Sign Association' where each did their own thing, and the other companies referred jobs to the 'best' co for the job. We don't do that in Georgia...to my knowledge. We, each, 'do it all' and secretly sub-out what we can't do in-house. Like Rapid said, and I believe, what you share with others is out pure money out of your pocket.
A2Z needs to rely more on its internal abilities, or walk away, for maximum profit. That I'll always believe.
Sharing knowledge, fonts, clip art, customer's art files...sure. I'll do it. Money isn't everything...
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