I notice most of the time when I order my vinyl a roll or two always comes drop shipped. On my last order I just had to ask why? My supplier told me I was one of the few that ordered Cast material especially 50yd rolls. So I asked 3 Local Suppliers " In general what do most shops order Cast or Calendered? " all three said Calendered. Made me feel kinda warm and fuzzy knowing I can look a customer in the eye and honestly say they got the best. Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Yeah but did they get the best material, or the one best suited for the job requirements?
Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
Hiya Blake, Mike has a valid point. But, I know that a lot of shops are cutting corners and not informing the client that they are, sometimes, using inferior products. In the past you could tell the difference between cast and calendared material. However, it is getting more difficult every day. I've seen intermediate vinyl used on lighted sign faces and over rivets on vehicles. HP vinyl on banners or coroplast, imho, is a waste of money unless you're matching a color that is only available in HP material.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
you can tell all the people they are getting the best vinyl....BUT....most getting short term signage COULD GIVE A ***** LESS!!!! you buyin 50 yrd rolls of HP...ONLY MAKES YOURE SUPPLIER HAPPY!!! just fer grins....24x50 hp...$228.00 roll of intermediate.........$ 88.00 differance of ...............$140.00 now dont get me wrong....some jobs i only do with HP....BUT THOSE I CHARGE ACCORDINGLY FOR... and order only whats needed. all other SHORT TERM, NEED IT NOW signage GET IMTERMEDIATE!!!! puttin HP vinly on BANNER/CORO sign is A WASTER OF MONEY.....and again i say most who buy short term signs AINT LOOKIN FOR 8 YEARS OF USE!!!!! it youre money.....and seems kile you got a lot of it.....hehehehe
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Yep. Most of the shops here do most of their vehicle graphics with calendared around here.
I've got one nut (competitor) who did a vehicle wrap with calendared and the print was laminated. His latest creations are less than 6 months old and are not only delaminating, but the are peeling up all over the vehicles. .
(I gotta do a better job of proofreading.)
[ June 12, 2006, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
I am starting to use more and more intermediate these days..
Used to use HP for almost everything except coroplast.
Now I use intermediate for Construction project signs (Sign will be a wheelbarrow ramp in a couple of years)
Still use HP for highway trucks and contractor trucks (thinking about switching to intermediate on the contractor pick-ups though..they get beat up and only last 3 or 4 years anyway)
The way I am starting to look at it...A brand new pick-up or car is only warranteed for 3 years..why should the lettering be warranteed any longer?
Highway tractors...different matter.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
This seems like a real change in attitude.....
Just a few years ago I remember being involved in a discussion that "home brew" verses RT *wasn't worth it* because ... as the argument went...if you broke it down, RT was only costing you small X amount of dollars per use. Don't look at the jug price - look at the price per use, per job the argument went.
Even though my home brew has been 100% successful for the past 20+ years as an application solution.
But now it seems people are willing to skimp on the quality of their product, hedging their bets and hoping that calendared jobs will outlast cast jobs.
Short term stuff I can understand....vehicles, especially construction vehicles that take a lot of abuse, washings, sit constantly out in the elements, etc doesn't seem *worth the small upcharge for material* per job.
Manufacturers keep pushing up the longevity of their products. I think a lot of that is unsubstantiated one-upmanship. I don't see cast and calendared lasting much longer respectively than it did 15 years ago.
Personally, I'd be afraid to use calendared on most vehicle jobs unless I knew for a fact that they were only going to keep the vehicle for 2-3 years max.
I still see massive fading in certain calendared colors in no-time.....shrinkage and edge chipping is still a medium term issue.
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Todd...If the "change in attitude" refers to me..yep
I still stock 5 times as much cast as I do calendered, but I am finding that calendered is just fine for a lot of jobs I used to do in cast.
Highway tractors and boats are all done in cast. Still doing all contractor's pick-ups in cast too. Just considering if they, the contractor pick-ups need it.
I have a fleet of 53 foot van trailers that were done with calendered vinyl 7 years ago..I get to look at them every week..up close and personal..every one I see is still fine and some of the trailers are now "retired" to "storage facility" status. That particular fleet job would have meant a difference of about $20,000 less in my pocket if done with cast vinyl.
Bottom line is..I will still be using cast vinyl..but evaluating each new job as to whether it requires it.
As far as RT is concerned..I still pay the "big bux" to Roger...it works for me... Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Makes sense as you explain it Dave. I agree that each job must be evaluated...and frankly....some customers sincerely don't really care that they might get a better look for a longer duration if it means they have to pay more.
So you can even make a decision based upon the customer's attitude towards quality - however, I'd rather give them cast and feel better about it.
I'll have to agree to disagree on the app fluid though...my secret potion has given me perfect results for years on end. I've saved several k on app fluid myself.
But I ain't talkin....my secret brews ingredients are a tightly held secret...just like the special coating on KFC chicken.. Posted by Judy Pate (Member # 237) on :
I have always used mostly cast. I special order intermediate when I have large order for small indoor banners or other temporary signs. I feel better giving my customer a job done in quality HP vinyl. Black, cardinal red, king(sapphire)blue,(vivid) traffic blue,and white get ordered in 24" x 50 yard rolls. Make sense to me to keep this much on hand. Judy
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
Cast only. I buy calendared, when they have it on sale, for making patterns for cutting out fancy sign shapes and what not. I cut my pattern, stick it on the HDU, cut it out, and throw the vinyl away.
It's faster than making a pounce pattern...for me anyway.
Posted by Louie Pascuzzi (Member # 1373) on :
We use cast Orocal 751 & 851 on 90% of our jobs. If I use 60 ft. of cast on a 4'x 8'sign (letters and outlines or shades) It still only cost about 45.00 for the cast vinyl at .75 ft. It's not worth risking the longevity of a job for 25.00 savings. On a truck job the total vinyl used is even less.
No, we don't have to guarantee our truck lettering for 5 years but when that calendered vinyl shrinks the customer is not coming back. On the other hand we have had customers come in with trucks lettered by another shop with calendered vinyl with 1/8" glue outlines and we point out the differences in the materials and how we only use the best materials available and we tell them that if that glue line ever happens with our job we will fix it, no questions asked. That is a great selling point. We letter 250 - 300 trucks a year and most of those are repeat customers and referrals. So we must be doing something right.
Posted by Tim Whitcher (Member # 685) on :
Cast for everything except short term signage (coroplast, jobsite signs). I offer a five year warranty on all of my permanent signage, and stand behind it. Also, I've only used one brand of vinyl for the last 13 years (except for reflective).
Posted by Dave Draper (Member # 102) on :
Mostly calandered here. Oracal 651. But it depends on what the customer asks for, and I do ask them.
I used Avery cast black vinyl on a box truck, not even 6 months old and I have to go back a fix it once a month.
The second box truck (identical to the first) used Oracal 651 (calandered) black...don't have to fix that one at all!
Here is the rub, we are going to get a Versacam 54 inch. Im told the prints might last up to 3 years with out lamination. No one has given me a straight answer on how long they will last with lamination.
But if the prints make it a short 3 years only, the only advantage to using cast or even control tack on a vehicle wrap is that the bubbles wont show up as bad using control tack. But as far as the print lasting...it isn't going to. So why use cast? For the rivits? The majority of semi trucks I see have a big pucker around every rivit.
The newest way to letter the big rigs is to attach a frame and place a full color printed banner down the entire truck. When the add is old or the banner rips, they pop out the old banner and insert the new one. No vinyl to clean off, no glue residue to mess with. At a few bux a sq ft, its chump change to them.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
"now dont get me wrong....some jobs i only do with HP....BUT THOSE I CHARGE ACCORDINGLY FOR... and order only whats needed." i stock all colors of intermediate in 24x50 rolls(SHINERITE luv it)i do a lot of coro baseball/football field signs, waste of money like i said before puttin HP on coro(life expectance of coro is less then a year in the sun)i do a lot of OLDER USED TRUCKS(not pretty ones)why would i use HP? truck aint gona last more the 3 years(tree service). BANNERS, not HP, now my board signs, on alumicore/MDO/CENTRA all get HP...and its explained to the buyer the differance in quality.. AND PRICE if they want it in INTERMEDIATE they know it aint gona last more then 2-3 years..THEY ARE TOLD THIS UP FRONT...if they choose to go with intermediate....and iam with dave on this....MO MONEY IN MY POCKET....thats why iam in this business....BUT iam smart enough to KNOW WHICH PRODUCTS TO USE....so i make money......
Posted by Blake Wright (Member # 6584) on :
O.P. before you slap me with a speedo I guess I should say that most of my work is not temporary. And that’s why I stock HP films. If a customer can't afford HP I will then offer a cheaper film and order 10yds or so. And for a large order of temporary signs I'll order what I need. All I’m saying is the sales people are telling me most local shops are not using HP. Now does that mean they are mostly doing temporary signs or do they skimp out? Or I could have just been lied to? Anyway as for me the bulk of my work is not temporary so I stock HP.
[ June 13, 2006, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: Blake Wright ]
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
i do new vehicles and some board signs all with HP...for longevity. if youre doing all long term sinage..then yea stock HP....but...most of my work is opposite of you.. so my bulk is INTERMEDIATE.. i also have a mobile shop....windows and winshild banners dont require HP.....
Posted by Jack Ambler (Member # 3255) on :
Not knowing any different when I started my shop, I ordered HP cast film and I have continued to use it for the majority of my jobs ever since. My supplier tells me that most shops use calendered films but when I look at the fading and shrinkage on vehicles stuck with calendered, I take an extra measure of pride in the work I have done with HP film. My shop truck graphics were applied with HP film and after 4 years they looked just as good as they did on day one. My customers and prospective customers are made aware that I use HP film and most are willing to pay a little more for something they know will last.
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