I made a sign today 12"x 72"on high impact styren. they wanted it completely covered with one color and the letters cut out,... how to do it without nasty bubbles,creases ...???
[ May 21, 2006, 03:37 AM: Message edited by: Joanna Barnett ]
Posted by Tim (Member # 1699) on :
This sounds like a job for Rapid Roger and his magical elixer "Rapid-tac" please stay tuned for more info!
Rapid-tac application fluid will make easy work of this for you Joanna.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
If it is not backlit, you may find it easier to get the background color on without cutting the lettering out. This would just allow you to concentrate on getting the large bubble-free application technique mastered first, without worrying about precise positioning. It's not that tricky, but untill you are comfortable with it, I would suggest having a piece of vinyl masked & then cut (through the mask, vinyl & release liner) to a size about 1" extra in length & 1" extra in height (or an extra 1/2" at all 4 sides)
Then I would lay it on the styrene so it is approximately centered with excess material at all 4 sides & I would tape a center hinge 36" from one end going across the 12" span of the material, taping the graphic down to the table. Then I would flip one half the vinyl over on to the other half, then starting at one end, I would remove the release liner exposing the adhesive for about 3' untill I got to the tape hinge. Here, I would cut off that half of the liner. Now, make sure the half that still has the liner is still positioned exactly right (maybe an extra bit of tape at the far corners would ensure that) & start squeegeeing right at the center with firm overlapping strokes. If you are new to this, this may be easiest with a wet application, but is also not that difficult to apply dry at 12' x 72". As you work it across to the far end, just remember to apply firm squeegee pressure & overlap your strokes. If you have a good straight undamaged squeegee, & a dust free piece of styrene, you should ba able to lay down a perfect background color. After the first half is done, remove the hinge, flip up the second half & repeat the steps going in the other direction.
If your letters were cut out, now you would be done... but positioning the thing exactly straight & centered is a little bit more work... just cutting some white letters & applying them in a second step may be a few dollars of extra material, but the additional labor is minimal & if you have any apprehension about getting it done right in one step, this is a way to make life easier sometimes. (if it is not a backlit sign & if you have the color that is needed.) I think styrene is usually white, so I thought this may be a helpful suggestion.
[ May 21, 2006, 05:24 AM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
I would do it the way Doug describes. If you're not familiar with this type of application, a few pictures might help.
I would start out by cuttin the styrene to exact size. Then I would take the graphic and trim flush to the bottom corners. The bottom corners on the graphic would align to the bottom corners on the styrene. If the graphic were slightly larger or slightly smaller than the styrene, I would make the alignment on both sides equal.
With the graphic and the styrene aligned, I would tape to the table at the bottom corners. Then I would apply a tape hinge right down the middle.
I would unfasten the tape at one of the corners, and pull the graphic back. I'm missing a step in the pictures. It's actually easiest to fold the graphic back onto itself, and then pull the release liner back to the original position, which would result in G.
It's easy to start a small tear in the release liner near the tape. Then that section of release liner can be torn free, revealing the styrene.
I would then swing the graphic back almost to it's original position, elevating it with just enough tension to keep it from tacking before I can squeegee it. Too much tension influences the way it lays down, and usually ends up with the vinyl slightly crooked. I let gravity do most of the work as I squeegee up and down from the tape hinge to the end of the graphic. I change squeegee stroke direction at the very end of the graphic to keep from getting wrinkles at the end.
I never wet app this type of thing, and I rarely have a problem with alignment.
[ May 21, 2006, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: Russ McMullin ]
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Nice job Russ!
The few thoughts I had on the "finer points" of what could go wrong seemed too hard to describe... but now I can add to what Russ has made so clear.
The first vulnerability to error I would warn against is having problems right in the center. I always cut the release liner. Russ tears it. I'm sure that works for him, but I'd warn that when you cut a straight line, you go back to complete the second side & the liner should be easily accessible to begin removing at the center, but if the tear line is at all irregular like the exaggerated zigzag shown above, you can see how the liner could be slightly stuck in there.
The other concern I would have is that the back & even the "inside" of the liner, if it delaminates when torn, is not waxy, so if you get any non-waxy paper... even just minute stray fibers at the edge... this could be enough to result in a paper fragment stuck under the vinyl right smack in the center of your perfectly applied vinyl. (ask me how I know?)
The last point I would add to this is that if you were to do a wet application, I would avoid allowing any application fluid to contact that first bit of space by the cut liner... because water could increase the liklihood of a paper fragment disintegrating enough to get stuck on your vinyl even with a cleanly cut liner.
As for my concerns of alignment, I think the careful attention to the tension applied to the unstuck piece in progress is where this is dealt with. If you are applying that tension slightly towards yourself, &/or if you are squeegeeing with slightly more emphasis on the strokes towards yourself.. on a longer application, like the 36" in half of your sign above... you have a possibility of the vinyl stretching enough to start out in line, but gradually go off track leaving a line of copy that is not straight.
Also, remember that if the vinyl is the same size or larger then the substrate... then the tape hinge does not hold it to the styrene... only to the table, & even the only at the spots that are quite a distance apart, so you need to be sure nothing moves out of alignment as you work.
Posted by Joanna Barnett (Member # 6544) on :
Wow thank you i have been doing it wrong this whole time! that helps alot!! no one ever taught me so i just went with the way i thought was best! and yes its a back lite sign!! but that helps thank you!!
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
you're welcome!
...let us know how it works out on your next attempt.
Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
You're right about tearing the paper Doug. It does take practice to tear the release liner without a fuzzy edge. If I get a bad edge I fix it before continuing.
The alignment is also a concern, especially if the substrate is light. There is a way to attach the substrate to the table, and still run the vinyl flush to the corners. It involves taking two pieces of tape, and sticking them together with a healthy offset. The tape stays under the substrate, rather than on top:
I can't remember where I saw this first, but it works great.
Posted by Dusty Campbell (Member # 4601) on :
I agree with Doug when it comes to tearing. If it's a line of text, I fold the line so the crease is between the letters, and tear, but if there is no place to tear and avoid the tear being on vinyl, I take an Exacto and cut the release liner.
Make sure you use alot of pressure and keep the squeege at about 70-80 degrees. This gives the most efficient down-pressure. No offense intended at all, but most girls I've been around when they start don't put enough pressure(a couple guys too, but mostly girls). I think guys put their body mass into it. That being said one of the best vinyl people I know is a very petite girl, so don't think you can't do it.
There are different brands of squeege which I find better for different tasks. For laying vinyl, I prefer 3M gold squeeges, but for putting down app tape, I prefer the white ones that Avery gives you with a roll.
You can also hinge on the top, bottom, sides and horizontally depending on what will work best.
Posted by Rosemary (Member # 1926) on :
Why is it that nobody had mentioned the very base way to mount copy straight?? Put a 1/2" wide, 2" long piece of making tape on the left and right sides of the premasked applique with 1" on the premask and the other 1" sticking off the premask out to the sides. Measure the baseline or letterning or graphic to the edges for being straight, press the masking tape down onto the substrate on both sides left and right, tear through the masking tape on both sides leaving 1/2 of each on the substrate. Turn the applique face down, remove the carrier, turn it face up and then the person on each side matches the masking tape pieces back up again. The squeegee guy tacks his end down that the other person keeps tight tension on the applique and slightly off the surface keeping his pieces of masking tape even. Lat and I do this with ALL appliques and even the 24" x 15 foot ones. When we lay the 48" x 12' (or longer) digital prints there are 4 of us holding, but we always use the same method. We NEVER mount wet at all and we never hinge. I always thought everyone knew this stuff, no?
me Posted by Joanna Barnett (Member # 6544) on :
I can't believe the amount of knowledge i have learnt in the last week,... i forsure have alot to learn,.. cuz if i'm doing this wrong what else am i doing wrong!?!?! Thank you all again!
Posted by Dusty Campbell (Member # 4601) on :
Rosemary, I think we've been aiming at a one person application. Do you have a helper Joanna? It sure does help once things get big.
Seriously, use the search function. When I found this place, I searched more than I read the current posts. It will save you a world of frustration learning from others. Though I find the lessons only really sink in once I've screwed it up for myself.
I found pricing to be the hardest thing once I started my own business.
Posted by Joanna Barnett (Member # 6544) on :
the odd time i call in help my parents are about 25 mins away so if i know they are comin to town i try to work around them for help but not allways so i have to learn to doit by myself!!
pricing is still the biggest problem i have!
Posted by Rosemary (Member # 1926) on :
Oh! Alone shouldn't make much difference as long as you can reach left and right at the same time, no? You just gently wiggle it left and right drawing it up from the bottom till the tape matches. Seat the right side and hold the left side up while you squeegee. I wish I could make a video thigie for here on this. I'm pretty good at working alone.
me Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Joanna..Russ presented a visual of the ideal way for one person to do what you need to do.
Doug and Dusty added some extra information that is right on.
Tim mentioned Rapid Tac and he mentioned a great product that would assist until you are comfortable with dry application.
Rosemary's method might have merit too but I won't know till I see a video or a "Russ style" visual of what she means.
I am getting very scared these days..Russ McMullin is inside my head..I know he is!!!!!! (He uses all the ideas that I thought only I used...The guy is an idea thief!!! )
Worse yet..he spends the time to work up visual displays of "our" thinking!!!! Posted by Jack Ambler (Member # 3255) on :
Doug/Russ: Thanks for the great info! When I use the hinge method to lay down large graphics, I always seem to get bubbles along the line of the hinge. Am I squeeging (sp??) too close to the hinge?
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Jack..I had that prob too..I started squeeging an inch or so away from the hinge and then after doing the first side and starting the next side I could snap up the first inch or so and re-apply.
edited to rephrase..I now just lightly squeegie the first inch or so. That way I can easily snap up the "hinge area" and redo it to get rid of the bubbles.
[ May 21, 2006, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: Dave Grundy ]
Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
I use a variation of Rosemary's method with good results. It works best with lots of copy rather than large areas of vinyl. Instead of removing the tape on the corner when the graphic gets pulled back, I tear it in half using the edge of the squeegee as a blade. When the release liner is torn away, I tack the graphic back into place using the tape to align it. Since the graphic is then flat on the substrate, you have to be a lot more careful with pre-tack, but I can usually get it sqeegeed down with few if any bubbles. It's really fast.
Sorry to scare you Dave. I was told this mind reading equipment I bought was undetectable. I'll have to call tech support. Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Wet application, so much simpler.
Roger
Posted by Dusty Campbell (Member # 4601) on :
Joanna, If you do a wet application, make sure you use plenty of whatever fluid or you'll end up with lots of bubbles. A light mist won't do.
Rapid tac is good stuff. And Roger will send you samples to try if you ask nice and maybe a hat too.
Posted by Randy W. Robarge (Member # 2022) on :
I do most applications with a center hinge method just as shown above.
I've found, however, that I don't necessarily use a squeegee when applying. I find my thumbs seem to work the vinyl better? Does anyone else use their thumbs with good results?
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
Sorry Roger
I disagree. I have been applying vinyl since 1978, and I have nothing but trouble with wet application. I have used the wet method on a surface that faces the sun, but, all in all, dry is the only way to go, (for me). But, it's not for everybody.
Wet might help a newbie, but I learned with the dry/hinge method. Since gaining experience, I have been able to install 32' Edge printed/seamed panels - dry - with very little problem.
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Check my website Rick, you will probably find something you have been doing wrong .
Using Rapid Tac or TacII is not like using soap&water, its much different, you CLEAN with the application fluid (very important) and nothing else, when you understand this and a couple other tips you will be able to apply vinyl wet with perfect alignment and no bubbles and it will bond in 90 seconds( infact you will just about need a razor to get it off in just 10 minutes). People who have problems with Rapid Tac or TacII applications need to read the Q & A at my site "tech tips".
Wet applying films can and do save a multitude of time, during and after the the fact.
Roger
Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
Randy is all thumbs--just as long as it's thumbs up! I often get things started with my thumb and then switch to a squeegee.
Joanna, email Roger Bailey with your mailing address and he will send you samples of his product line in very handy spray bottles. You might not get it in time to help with this job, but you will find his products very useful in the future.
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Thank you David, and yes, I will send free samples of all 5 products.
Most large scale vinyl applications are very time consuming done dry, and very subject to problems/mistakes, folks who have learned the proper wet procedures with Rapid Products have eliminated not only the "big time factor" but have discovered that the 2 application fluids are like haveing insurence in a bottle !
They eliminate mistakes (stretched or torn vinyl, wrinkles, bubbles) and eleminate the need for a 2nd set of hands.
Roger
Posted by Rosemary (Member # 1926) on :
I'm sure your stuff works but we don't get wrinkles, tears, bubbles or anything like that and we lay huge digital graphics on lighted faces and trucks and whatever. We never work wet. I'm sure your stuff makes it easier for the guys who can't do it like we do, but its not necessary if you know how to do it right, no?
me Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
quote:Originally posted by roger bailey: Check my website Rick, you will probably find something you have been doing wrong.
Roger
I am a firm believer in using your products. A gallon of application fluid will last for years because I simply don't use it.
That being said, your comments shown above are somewhat belittling. I have been applying vinyl longer than some here have been alive. Is there room for improvment? Yes, but just because someone does it a different way dosen't make it "wrong" I am sure you didn't mean to sound arrogant, but you did. I am sure much research went into your website, but it dosen't change my method. My way works too.
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
The "wet vs. dry" debate has been going on as long as the paint vs. vinyl debate, I think.
To most of us that have been applying vinyl for a while, Joanna's situation might seem like a no-brainer application. But I remember when I started out, a hunk of vinyl that was 6 feet long was HUGE. Just premasking it was a challenge, and actually applying it was gonna be insurmountable. But we all got past that.
Nowadays many, if not most can handle 4 foot wide material without batting an eyelash. (unless it is outdoors and windy)
I prefer dry applications myself, but when required or when I am nervous I still use Rapid Tac. It does the job it is supposed to do. It is like Mastercard..I don't leave home without it
I would like to think that my prefered method of installation is the best and fastest, but the truth is, if you gave the identical 3 layer logo to 5 different guys, who all had the same experience level, and told them to assemble and install??
There would probablly be 5 different approaches and 5 different application techniques and the end result would be that all 5 accomplished the task in about the same time and with the same level of quality.
BTW..I don't find Roger to be offensive or arrogant...just a guy marketing his products. And I must say he is probably the most successful merchant (in terms of getting the bang for his buck) here as a result of his regular input.
He believes in his products just like Edge users believe in their products and Versacamm users believe in theirs.
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
Paint Rules!
Posted by Rosemary (Member # 1926) on :
I believe that too!
me Posted by Joanna Barnett (Member # 6544) on :
my problem with paint is i can't draw a straight line if my life depended on it! Right now i have done 99% of my applications dry, tryed acouple times wet just didn't seem to work... but as i said still don't know the right techiques and willing to learn and try! and decide for myself once i learn! Then i will decide WET OR DRY!
Thank you for everything its all very helpful and food for thought!!
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Rick, well, I'm sorry you find me belitteling.
Don't mean to come off that way, its just that I have been laying large vinyl since 1965 (41 years now), I feel that to apply films with the simplicity and designed cleaner, you get close to perfection quality everytime and the true longivity of that film.
You always argue my opinion for removing films as well (heat lamp tree and rapid remover) now, I don't make a penny on heat lamp trees or "cheap paper towels" but I am gonna offer the info. that I believe is the most cost effeciant and the easiest and cleanest, period.
I'm sure you and many others just won't take the 3 minutes to go to my site and learn anything about wet applications , so be it, I have enough end users to keep me very happy in my biz, I mainly moniter this site and others because of my beleifs, ok and to brag about my products !!
Who knows, if you get it understood you may be saving hundreds of dollars of labor every month ??
Roger
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
When you try to flip it back to being about how "people find you", you perpetuate your error by refusing to see it. Saying you "Don't mean to come off that way" also dodges the fact that YOU ARE THAT WAY.
It is not a question of intrepretation, it is a choice you have made when you choose the words you choose. You are no idiot, & therefore nobody believes your repetative acidic barbs are convenient accidents, you attempt to discredit & minimize the comments of any respected professionals who may sway the spending habits of your mark away from putting a few more dollars in your pocket.
Sure, wet applications have there place, & Rapid Tac works great for those occassions...
...but the fact that the majority of seasoned professionals here & elsewhere do the majority of their applications dry is not because your are so full of yourself when you disparage others...
...it is simply because a wasted step is still a wasted step... and wasted money is still wasted money even if it went to a Letterville merchant.
You have every right to inform people that you have a good product that has an important place in this industry... but you have no right to attempt to deceive new sign folks looking for advice from their peers by maligning those of us who already "get close to perfect quality everytime" WITH DRY INSTALLS ...even with absolute understanding & experience with wet applications. (geez.. you make it sound like some rocket science that the seasoned pros have somehow remained unaware of )
Posted by Jonathan Androsky (Member # 2806) on :
Hey Joanna, you don't need to make straight lines to use paint, just ask Sawatzky Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug Allan: Sure, wet applications have there place, & Rapid Tac works great for those occassions...
...but the fact that the majority of seasoned professionals here & elsewhere do the majority of their applications dry is not because your are so full of yourself when you disparage others...
Doug:
Your reply, in it's entirety is what I wanted to say, but you said it better.
Roger:
I gain nothing financially if someone uses wet or dry install, or if they buy a light tree or a steamer. You put forth the idea that "Rapid Roger is the guru of vinyl install/removal"
Since you brought it up, very few of us can afford to, (or have the space for) a body shop light tree to cart around with us on a vinyl removal job that we are likely to lose money on anyways. When it comes to convience and mobility, the steamer wins hands down. If you have a Sawasky style shop, the light tree may be the way to go. Just ease up Dude!
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Thank you Dave, I know "you get me", some think I'm the guy that Doug has so willingly outlined here, sorry Doug, wrong again.
As for "extra steps" read your instructions to Joanna, your outline of how to do this will take 15 to 20 minutes longer then doing it wet.
My new motto; Peel it off spray it slap it downThats from a seasoned veteran.
Roger
Posted by Rosemary (Member # 1926) on :
Squeegeeing is squeegeeing, wet or dry. An extra step is an extra step, no? If we get 100% dead lays every time why would we spend the extra money or the time?? Oh, well. One thing I've been taught is when to gracefully withdraw. Bye!
me
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
To quote the now famous Gavin:
[ May 25, 2006, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: Rick Beisiegel ]
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dave Grundy: ...he is probably the most successful merchant (in terms of getting the bang for his buck) here as a result of his regular input.
He believes in his products just like Edge users believe in their products and Versacamm users believe in theirs.
Dave, I agree he's manifesting a lot of "bang" for his buck here, but regarding your comparison... it's too bad the users of his products are not in the lead role of promoting them here, because while most will acknowledge they have value... it's that incessant over-exaggerated "bang" from the mouthpiece that many of us could do without.
It really waters down the overall impression of any product when the claims of usefulness are trumped up & any dissent is thumped down.
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Its not just about squeegeeing Rosemary, the extra steps are;
1- the sign substrate has to be cleaned, clean once with Rapid Tac and paper towel (the same amount of time wet or dry).
2-measure the substrate and mark (one time with wet apply) you must also measure cut and mark again for dry.
3-spray substrate liberally,remove liner, slap down, align, squeegee, no messing with hinge and tearing liner, tapeing down here and there, worrying about getting it straight, ooops what if you do ? If your doing it wet you just lift and align again, if your doing it dry, well its toast, back to the shop and cut again.
When I go on a application job (demo) I take only; Rapid Tac,cheap paper towels, good squeegee, roll of 3/4 masking tape, tape measurer and pencil, Rapid Prep for wax etc..
I don't take; window cleaner, alcohol, exacto knife, wax and grease remover,shop rags,or another person, unless size of graphic is over6'X6'
Roger
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Hey Doug, You need to take something for that !
Roger
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
I guess I need some too, Doug. Let me know when you get it. I'll split it with you.
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Good girl Joanna, your samples are in the mail today !
I'm happy to see you have an open mind about your trade, you will learn much in the future.
If you need any questions answered before or during the use of Rapid Products,call me; 800-350-7751 or 541-474-1113, be happy to talk to you !
Roger
Roger
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
Roger
I have your products here in stock, and I use them, just not for wet application. So your sideways remarks are not necessary. Why can't we both be right? Let it go already!
Rick
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
What's with the personal attacks? Just because you don't share Roger's pride in his product, or disagree with his method of application, is no reason to put the Man down on a public board.
This sort of crap has to stop. We're all here to learn. I may not be as wise as some of you seasoned pros, but I am smart enough to know there is more than one way to skin a cat. I like to think I am also tolerant, and have enough respect for my fellow Letterheads to listen to all who are successful at what I want to do.
Some will read this as another scolding by a guy who feels he has the right to run his show in an environment where all feel welcome. What's so hard about that?
I've tried both wet and dry. For me, I like the option of applying wet. It gives me an opportunity to reposition something without destroying the vinyl. Just my way of saving another baby Vinyl from slaughter.
Let's agree to a truce here. I'll promise not to gloat over the fact I can handletter or spray the job. All I ask is that you guys refrain from putting me down because I suck at dry application. Is that fair?
When responding to future posts, let's try to answer the original question. Debate all the different ideas and your reason for doing things your way. All I ask is that you refrain from taking things to the next level and attacking a person's integerty just because you don't like his style.
[ May 25, 2006, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
Posted by Suelynn Sedor (Member # 442) on :
Joanna,
I didn't see anyone mention that you need to let the styrene outgas. You need to remove the protective liner that come on it, and then let it "breathe". If you don't do that, you'll get tiny bubbles after you apply your vinyl, no matter which method you like.
I use the center hinge method and something that size I'd probably do wet. I work by myself too, and there's always that chance you'll drop the corner, or the vinyl will stick to itself.
Suelynn
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
Suelynn, my only problem with the outgassing theory is, why doesn't the protective liner get bubbles in it? Still, I have experienced what you said from time to time, so who knows?
I also understand what you're saying Steve, but there are tons of highly skilled people that swear by dry only, their opinion counts a lot too. I keep all of Roger's products around also, like Rick said, when I feel nervous about the install.
Posted by Joanna Barnett (Member # 6544) on :
I tried the hinge techique that was cool! Thanks for the advise!! didn't need an extra hand! Posted by Joanna Barnett (Member # 6544) on :
Suelynn,
I'm not sure what ur sayin with the Out gasing?? i don't see a protective layer not sure? please explain more if u can! thank
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Excuse me Rick but, what the hell are you talking about now ? You have made 2 posts since I responded to Dougs insults, please "get a grip".
Roger
Posted by Joanna Barnett (Member # 6544) on :
I'm also sorry i started a war,.. but as I said I realize there is many different ways to apply vinyl, and i'm willin to learn everyway until i can feel comfortable with the right techique for me! and every one has a right to that and their own opinion! and thank you for all ur help and different opinion that i have now to try!!
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Thank you Steve (though it shouldn't be neccesary to calm the boys down)insults and namecalling are better left on non industry sites.
I put up with a lot of flack here and other sites, usually by someone who had a misunderstanding about using application fluids, I have managed to help a number of them but only if they call without an attitude, I don't wish to call and bug anyone.
Roger
Posted by Dusty Campbell (Member # 4601) on :
Joanna, some substrates come with a protective plastic layer. They've colored it recently, but it used to be clear. I've never been burned, but one guy in a shop I used to work at had to peel all the protective plastic off-with the graphics he had applied to 10 signs and hang them on the wall. The wall of shame. Be a little paranoid about checking until you get super familiar with stuff.
The concept of outgassing is kind of like paint drying. Plastics emit gas as they age. The newer the plastic, the more gas is coming off. Alot of "new car smell" is the new upholstery and plastic parts outgassing. It can cause adhesion problems.
Hope everything's going good for u. <--speaking your language. Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
A VERY good explination on the "outgassing" Dusty. You can also smell the gasses inside a new roll of vinyl.
Roger
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Roger, I challenge you to find ONE insult! You keep talking about insults & name calling... but the posts don't back it up.
YOU started into your "belittling" remarks because Rick doesn't need the crutch of wet apps & he felt he had a right to share that information with a new member specifically looking for guidance in vinyl application ...something Rick does every day (& in the real world conditions of a profitable sign shop) Rick didn't "find you" belittling... YOU decided to be that way.
I'm no stranger to spewing my own blunt outspoken opinions... but at least I'm not going to be afraid to own up to them.
It's not an "insult" to point out that you DO attempt to discredit, minimize, disparage & malign other professionals who you disagree with.
Maybe you think it's insulting when I referd to your "incessant over-exaggerated "bang" from the mouthpiece" ...well, I consider it just one more of my blunt outspoken opinions... (I also know many others here share that opinion of your exaggeration)
I don't deny that I can be blunt & outspoken to a fault.
[ May 25, 2006, 09:42 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
Same here Roger. No name calling or personal attacks here either. I don't know where you or Steve get that from. I simply disagree with you. That's it, nothing else. I don't attack people, and I didn't attack you. Again, I HAVE & USE YOUR PRODUCTS, just not for wet application. No amount of rude treatment will change my mind.
Take care Rog.
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Listen, I responded to Rick saying "he dosn't do wet apps because he always has problems", so I offered my "tech tips" section of my website so he may find out what hes been doing wrong, now tell me how that is "belitteling ?
And while you two are at it, please tell me that you wouldn't consider it an insult if someone (on an open forum) called you a "incessant overexagerated mouthpiece", or Ricks' insult of my "sideways remarks" ?
Fase it Doug you have had an ax to grind with me since a year ago when I called you on your negative remarks about how this site was run.
Guess you figured it a good time to ball. the scale?
Believe me, I will not again offer anything to either of you.
Roger
Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
Hiya Joanna, I don't think I welcomed you to the board yet. So welcome aboard Don't sweat the other conversation here. These things happen from time to time because, as you will find out, we are very passionate about what we do and we are very strong in our beliefs. As someone may have already pointed out, you will discover is that there are several ways to make a sign, and it's up to you to choose the way that works best for you. Although they appear to be $hitheads at the moment, Roger, Doug and Rick are all good people. I had the pleasure to meet Doug and Rick and I spoke with Roger on the phone.
Stick around and keep learning. This place is fun
Havin' fun,
Checkers
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
Oh yeah, Doug you and your friends who find me" overexagerated", please, find another product to use, I really won't appreciate your biz.
Roger
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Welcome to the family, Joanna.
.
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
Welcome.. its good to see a new learner trying to do good..
But the flames are not your fault. Its the problem of testosterone poisoning among a few of the more "manly" members.
YA, know,, this is the same old debate about using an app fluid,, or not.
I use RT products. I like them alot. They made me a ton of money.
Some say will say they never need them. One said was invented as a joke. If app fluids are a joke then why do the tinters use thier special juices. I did long before I did vinyl and this juice always made a difference.
There are times when I do use RT. Like when applying large sheets of trans vinyl and do not wish to have it GRAB too soon. We all know how much that stuff costs.. And ruin just one 3 x 10 sheet and you lost a hunnert bux. ITs not worth it to me to risk ruining a $100 bux of material.
I don't care what jack says. He can say it all he wants.. IT is needed by me.. Period. IF it wasn't needed, then why was control tac invented? we all know. At least those who did a wrap or two know..
As for outgassing and bubbles on new plastic sheets or any other sheet for that matter. I do not believe it.
In 99% of the time,, Bubbles or worse yet,, pickle skin are caused by improper application techniques. PERIOD. Simply I do not beleive outgassing causes pickle skin.. PERIOD. In all the years and all the panels I've done. Never once have I had any pickle skin when the vinyl was applied in the RIGHT manner. 99% of the time it all boils down to the installer. Wrong techniques equals bubbles.
I have never used alcohol wipe downs, I have never waited more than a few minutes to apply vinyl after removing the liners, and I have never cleaned a new sheet with anything. I have observed two people applying vinyl on a sheet, and seeing one have NO pickle skin while the other has. I observed people laying vinyl down on aluminum and had pickle skin. Aluminum outgassing ? Nope.. I observed my son and one friend trying to do a panel last year, my son had no bubbles, the other guys work blistered like chicken pox.. Redone the piece , and again had blisters. I redid it and had none.. OUtgassing? not a chance.. ( the main reason in my experience is an improperly prepared squeegee tool.)
If the plastic sheets are outgassing,, then why are there NO bubbles or pickles skin under the liners.. There aren't any. I dare say its pretty tough to remove them liners at times.. YES? And, I'll say that no one here has ever seen a liner bubbled or pickle skinned. Nope. not one.. I am sure there will be someone who claims to know someone that had and bubbled liner sheet. But like the elusive snipe hunting tales no on has actualy personally seen one caught.
Like it or not, its the applicator that causes the bubbles. Not some strange outgassing excuse.
Posted by Dusty Campbell (Member # 4601) on :
We get the word sniper from the folks who hunted snipe.
I can't attribute any failures to outgassing, but plastics do release gasses. Come to think of it I noticed yesterday a temporary sign I did on styrene with a layer of Oracal 651 black, then a layer of Avery gold mirror doing something I've never seen before. All over the sign pretty evenly spaced half inch bubbles had appeared. It looked almost hammered. I'll post a pic tomorrow and get some feedback.
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
And so it begins to spiral downward. Joanna asks a simple question and gets some wonderful advise on the hinged method of application. Some even took the time to create illustrations to demonstrate the process. Wonderful stuff. That's what this is suppossed to be all about.
Others mentioned the wet method of application. This is also a very popular way of applying vinyl. A professional signmaker should be familiar with both methods, and capable of choosing what method to use on the various materials and under the different conditions we encounter.
It's that simple. The rest of the stuff was completlely unecessary. Nobody ever wins these silly attempts at banging heads. Most of us longtime users can clearly see that there are a few in Letterville that don't see eye to eye, and probally never will. That's not a problem if both people agree to disagree instead of turning every post into a wizzin' contest.
I don't see a bad guy here. Just an ongoing battle of will and wits that is annoying as hell to the vast majority of us.
There are many days I feel like Jerry Springer with his analysis of that day's show. Trying to keep a few from destroying each other, and intimidating the new arrivals is my least favorite part of looking after Letterville.
Hang in there Joanna. We're just people. Somedays we can be Saints and other days we can behave like selfish brats. That includes me.
I've removed a couple posts. The day will come when I will no longer be the person who decides what goes and what stays. Years from now, I would like to think future Letterheads can come back and use our work here as a resource without having to read our insults to each other.
It's an impossible job to do in a fair manner that will please everyone. Many times I have to remove posts by friends that I know are only trying to defend me. Nothing personal, but it's my way of enforcing the third man in rule. Hey! It works in hockey.
[ May 26, 2006, 02:54 AM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
Posted by david drane (Member # 507) on :
When will "Rapid" products become available in Australia??
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
We are ready over here, just need someone to make the comitment over there !
Roger
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
You do have to be careful when debating these sorts of things....people's feelings and pride get hurt awfully quickly....and can heighten to unimaginable conclusions.
Case in point:
I once debated with a person on another forum how their particular products' intended use could be achieved successfully by another "inexpensive" method and I ultimately recieved emails which personally threatened me and my family with a lawsuit by the nutjob I thought I was having a rational discussion with.
I have kept screenshots and copies of these emails "just in case"....
Although that person laughably had no ground to stand on (I had my lawyer buddy from church review printed excerpts [it's nice to have friendships with lawyers] of the forum discussion and personal emails)....it still demonstrated to me that some people you meet on the internet might not be altogether "steady"....and there is a point at which the hassle of being right isn't worth it.
Threats and stalking can be legally extended to the internet and electronic correspondence.
I am in no way insinuating that occurred with anyone here, - so don't take this wrongly because I doubt that it could, as this site is comprised of only the highest calibre of people...but I do have a long memory and have made a point of educating everyone I can on my personal, time-tested alternative solutions for achieving the same desired result since my run-in with that particular wierdo. these things can happen.
As far as this debate goes....I prefer dry apps mostly....Roger has good products which I have used in the past for particular situations....but I have successfully used my own "home brew" wet application as well for 20 years.
My failure rate with "my way?" Zero.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
me, my family, & my heirs formally withdraw any insinuation that vinyl could ever be installed successfully without Rapid-Tac.
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Why is it that nobody had mentioned the very base way to mount copy straight??![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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the fact that the majority of seasoned professionals here & elsewhere do the majority of their applications dry is not because your are so full of yourself when you disparage others...![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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Be a little paranoid about checking until you get super familiar with stuff. 