Okay here's the deal--a local builder, who is a good client and all around good guy emails me and asks if I can help him with this project. Turns out he and others are donating time and materials to a project facility for unwed mothers as an abortion alternative. I'm glad to help, so he forwards me the info including the "logo". Predictably, it's awful, and so I call the director of the facility and offer to design a new logo in addition to making the sign--all pro bono.
She seems agreeable and I do a couple layouts and sent her thet best one. In the end, guess what?
Yep...she wanted to go with her original idea...without any alteration from us.
Well whaddaya say to that? I ain't gonna work harder just to do something for free, but STILL....
Anyway here are my two layouts and hers...I'll let you guess which is which
Posted by Jerry VanHorn (Member # 4704) on :
my favorite is number one. I bet hers was 3.
btw - where are the flames??
[ May 11, 2006, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: Jerry VanHorn ]
Posted by Kelsey Dum (Member # 6101) on :
That sucks...been there. Yours (I'm assuming the top two) are very nice. I like the top one with the script.
Posted by Jonathan Androsky (Member # 2806) on :
I like the scripty one also. Nice.
I'm about to have this same struggle, a gal from a Health Food Deli stopped in today with her "logo that I came up with ::giggle::" It's the font Kid Type Paint in Lime Green and Tangerine Orange alternating every other letter. Worst thing ever. "Maybe you could come up with something better?", she asks.
I have a great fear of this project Posted by Barry Branscum (Member # 445) on :
UPDATE!
She made me "FIX" it....the sign now will look like THIS:
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Sigh......everyone's a napkin artist I guess.... Funny they'd pick Generic over Name Brand when the price is the same....
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
OK I got my asbestos underwear on.
I would have chosen the bottom one as well. It reads much better and is easier on the eye.
Go figure Posted by Barry Branscum (Member # 445) on :
that's okay Bob...I already got your money! lol
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
I do like the top two but Bob does have a point and not enough hair to hide it. Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
Still too thin if thats a sign for the fascia or whatever. The words will be invisible at more than a 100 feet.
It was likely designed by the siter of the director or something. Usually a print media graphic designer comes up with this thin stroke stuff for signs..
Posted by Barry Branscum (Member # 445) on :
YOu're bang on Right Curtis--and that final version is AFTER I added a thick outline and welded it!!
Posted by Mike O'Neill (Member # 470) on :
The good news is... You don't have to be right, you just have to get paid.
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
....or you can be right, still make the ugly-ass logo and still get paid,
Posted by Barry Branscum (Member # 445) on :
OR you can be right, still make the ugly logo...AND still do it for FREE and feel good about yourself at the same time.
Here's the rub. This place is practically across the street from my house. I will literally have to look at it DAILY.
Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
I'm sure there is politics involved. If she changed the logo she would have to deal with the person that designed it. She probably planned to keep it all along.
Posted by Patrick Whatley (Member # 2008) on :
I thought the rule was that if you were going to do it for FREE you'd better at least make it something you'll be proud to say you donated.
Now not only do you get to grimace everytime you ride by it you get to remind yourself that you didn't get paid for it. That "warm and fuzzy" feeling you get on the inside may just turn out to be heartburn. Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
quote:Originally posted by Barry Branscum: OR you can be right, still make the ugly logo...AND still do it for FREE and feel good about yourself at the same time.
Here's the rub. This place is practically across the street from my house. I will literally have to look at it DAILY.
There is always booze......
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Why not decline the project?
I mean, sure, it's for a good cause and all but tell ya what, beggars can't be choosers.
I don't mind a freebie here and there but if they're the ones looking for a hand-out the project is gonna get done to my specs so *I* can be proud of it and not wince every time someone says "YOU did that one?!?!"
Of course if you turn them down they'll just go to someone else and you still have to look at it every day. At least if someone else looks at it and says "Jeez that sign is ugly, you didn't do it, did you?" you'll be able to smile and say "Nope, I offered them something 20 times better but they insisted on that garbage so I had to pass."
Posted by John Deaton (Member # 925) on :
The third one is horrible. I wouldve taken the top one for sure. That bottom one is pure nephew art if I ever seen it.
Posted by bruce ward (Member # 1289) on :
oh what the hell do the ugly ass sign and write off for a donation of thre etimes what it is worth.
btw i knew it was 3 look at that font! thats one of those fonts that we would never use
Posted by W. R. Pickett (Member # 3842) on :
Barry,... JUST SAY NO!
Posted by Don Coplen (Member # 127) on :
quote:Originally posted by bruce ward: btw i knew it was 3 look at that font! thats one of those fonts that we would never use
New here, Bruce? I know a few members who would have gleefully put that bottom one in their portfolio. Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
I agree with those who say don't do it. Why would you?
It wasn't that long ago that I would have been content to do a sign like that. That speaks wonders for this site. We all start somewhere. Posted by Nancy Waller (Member # 6428) on :
Is it just me, or does it seem ironic that you are giving this place a choice? Anti-abortion means anti-choice. Life Choices inc. seems to mean that they will decide for women what to do with their lives, and their bodies. When it comes to MY medical choices "I'm the Decider". I can assume that you men have never had to make that tough decision. An unwanted pregnancy is no picnic. I've been there. Just imagine a tumor growing inside of you, you want it removed, but a group of ignorant nutjobs believes in the rights of tumors. Their fearmongoring and intolerance appeals to the uninformed. Laws are passed. Tumor removal clinics are shut down. Your choice is denied. Your 'tumor' will alter the course of your life. "A good cause"? I beg to differ. Right to Life? Who's life? What life? Who gets to decide? I know that this is thread is just about a logo for a sign. But there is alot of political crap going on in this country that scares me right now. If we don't stand up for our rights, they will be taken away. It is already happening, on our watch. Letterhead Women: Where are you? Who are you?
Posted by Barry Branscum (Member # 445) on :
THank you Nancy---for taking a decidedly ONtopic post and sending it SPIRALING in the direction of your own particular political bent. If you want to say that young women in trouble should have NO OPTION but ABORTION and you can live with that, that's up to you, but as for me your slanty comments are wasted and outta place.
Please guys....let's just pretend the above never happened. I don't wanna debate the political particulars here.
[ May 12, 2006, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: Barry Branscum ]
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
quote:Originally posted by Nancy Waller: Letterhead Women: Where are you? Who are you?
We're trying to keep this thread focused on it's topic: a customer's nasty "logo" and their refusal to use something better instead of turning it political, which is supposedly against the rules of the site. No offense or anything Nancy, but a lot of us are sick & tired of the enormous amount of political & religious crap that we've had to wade through here lately.
Barry, if you saw the church sign I posted on the portfolio page a couple weeks back I had a somewhat similar situation going on. The woman who thinks she runs the church didn't want the sign green cause "it'll blend in with the trees". (Like the old white one wouldn't blend in with the snow???) Since I was donating the sign, I walked into the meeting with the attitude of "It's my way or no way, I am the expert here". Not an ego thing, but I was donating the sign. I was not going to allow my name to be associated with a nasty mess, especially if I wasn't getting paid well to do so.
One thing I've used to show customers "the light" is to have them print out both versions, tack them on a wall, then walk across the room and see if they can still read the garbage they want. We have visual minds, we're totally able to imagine how things will look. Not everyone can do that.
Posted by Nancy Waller (Member # 6428) on :
So Sorry, I'm new to Letterhead and didn't know that there were rules about opinions on the Bullboard. I didn't mean to take your post off track. It just seemed ironic to me, about the choice thing. Where are the Bullboard rules listed? I guess I need to learn more about this site. It may not be what I thought it was.
Posted by Barry Branscum (Member # 445) on :
Nancy, As all of us have had to learn from time to time, ME ESPECIALLY, we have had to learn the hard way that this site works best when we focus on what we have in common.
You and I differ politically, but here, that ought not to matter. The purpose of letterheads is sharing the craft, and helping one another to be better at this thing we all love.
Surely there is some common ground there.
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
Hey, This topic was about poor design Choices...
"Just imagine a tumor growing inside of you, you want it removed, but a group of ignorant nutjobs believes in the rights of tumors."
Well....life has had it's ups and downs. The bad times have been bad but, the good times have been wonderful. Yesterday ended sorta rotten...but the sun's shining today! I'm glad my Mom didn't remove her "tumor".
Count your blessing Mom....I could have been TWINS Happy Mother's Day!
I prefer design #1
Posted by Lotti Prokott (Member # 2684) on :
I just have to say it: We were listed with the adoption agency for 8 (eight)years, waiting for a child, before we finally gave up and decided it wasn't meant to be. In maybe 97% of all cases the woman has at some point agreed to an action leading to the "tumor" growing inside of her. When has personal responsibility ceased to exist?
Sorry, Barry. Your designs are better, but don't sweat it. Just smile and do it.
Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
Can someone (Steve or Barb) please moderate this thread to keep it on topic? This is getting to the point of rediculous.
As per the sign, I guess I would let the customer's attitude sway my decision. If they were easy to work with, but opted for their original design, I wouldn't have a problem. If they were difficult to deal with, I'd politely decline. Of course, I wouldn't want my name associated with it. Posted by Stefanie Fox (Member # 6523) on :
Hey Barry,
Sign option #1 is outstanding design; simple, focused and well balanced.
My question here is this: what in the wild world of sports is the lady in the graphic kissing? a baby?? (not a too-mah!)
Posted by Kelsey Dum (Member # 6101) on :
I agree that you should not do the job if their being picky about the design. You could just do it and not put your name on it but that can be even more frustrating.
I was called to "fix" a mural someone had started. He got paid up front and left the job half done with lots of proportional mistakes. They didn't want to pay me much so I told them I could make it salvageable at most for what money they wanted to spend. Everytime I drive by it on the freeway I cringe...and they wondered why I didn't want to put my name/number on it? hhmmmmmm?!
Do what you want to do is the main thing.
Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
I agree with you Stefanie. The illustration needs a little help...ok, a lot.
Posted by Jerry VanHorn (Member # 4704) on :
The way I see it, Nancy is new and not in the 'clique' yet.
Yes, this can be very cliquey place at times. Most here are very decent people, and I would be happy to meet any of you in person.
"tumor" may not have been the best way to say it but Nancy expressed a personal opinion, just as anyone of you have done on this board several times before. Threads often get off course by the fourth post and no one complains then.
She DID apologize.
btw - welcome to the board Nancy!
Just me two cents worth.......probably worth less than that.
Posted by Pierre St.Marie (Member # 1462) on :
I would ahve said........ "I ain't workin' on no project where the kid looks like Alfred Hitchcock." heh................
P
Posted by Barry Branscum (Member # 445) on :
ha! I thought the VERY same thing!!! Posted by Roy Frisby (Member # 736) on :
I was asked to donate a 4x8 once. I was to do a number of proofs and let their committee decide which one they wanted, if any. THEY NEVER DID GET THAT DONATION!
By-the-way, I visited with my ex's unwanted pregnancy this past weekend. She is now 35 and has given me four wonderful grand children. I wouldn't trade her for the world!
[ May 12, 2006, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: Roy Frisby ]
Posted by Tracie Johnson (Member # 6117) on :
A homeless man once asked my sister for money. She handed him a couple of dollars and after we were a little way past him, a friend said, "He's only going to use it to buy alcohol." My sister replied, "I gave it to him. It's not my business what he does with it now."
I think it's not a bad idea to always try to adapt to that thought no matter what we give.
You offered to donate a sign. They already had a "design" for the sign. And as Russ said, maybe it would offend someone if they opted for the new design (which is of course much more effective in my opinion). You did your best trying to sway them in the right direction, unfortunately, they didn't understand your wisdom. We've all been there (I had one today as a matter of fact), and frustrating as it is, I think you are now obligated to do the sign. You feel it's a good cause, and you are still helping the cause. Time to put away that ego, which we all know we have. The sign will be done regardless if you do it or not. You will still have to drive by it everyday. And you will be remembered by them as the guy, who reneged on the charitable gift because "they wouldn't do it your way."
Just don't put your lable on it, and if you have to install it, put a bag over your head. Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
Inspired by Tracie's comment and Ricky Jackson's Revenge, put your competition's label on it.
Posted by greg fairbrother (Member # 6522) on :
Hi, I am new to this forum. Re Nancy: Talk about being in the wrong place at the wrong time; LOL I think you are obligated to a point. No one can make anyone do someone elses design and especially if it is a bad design. I worked in a mine where they wanted my lettering skills to knock out 100 underground signs. I was on their payroll and I just said that I will not do bad work even if they are underground signs. I made the person in charge of the project buy the best brushes and other supplies I needed but I stuck to my guns and " I DID IT MY WAY" as Frank Sinatra would say. These were caution, explosives signs and others to that effect. I say do it but maybe talk to the person who did the original design and together come up with a better design so they think they are a part of. That way, everyone wins.
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
I want to apologize to Nancy on behalf of Letterville. It's not her fault that I have not taken the time to spell out our policy regarding religious, political, and other potentially contraversal posts. How was she to know?
On the other hand, I see those that do know the rules, choosing to ignore them and personally attack her. There's never an excuse for that.
There's 2 issues to be resolved. I'm going to drop my plans for today and rewrite the Laws Of Letterville. If possible, I'll direct everyone to the updated rules to give everyone an opportunity to choose if they agree to abide by them.
The second challenge is not as easy. My health problems have reached the point where they are affecting our ability to manage Letterville in the manner you guys deserve. Instead of being at my job monitoring posts, I spend a big part of the day at the hospital. Over the past year that has become all too comman, and it is going to get worse. It's time for a change.
Now please address the original question and forget all the BS.
Posted by Barry Branscum (Member # 445) on :
ummm...actually I thought most of us did a pretty good job putting the fire out, that time Steve.
The thread could've quickly become a major flame war.
There wasn't much in the way of "attacks" and at least two outright appeals to Nancy to be a part of the group without the controversy.
The subject provokes strong emotion. Nancy's comments were VERY provoking (ala "tumors")...and yet aside from a few mild comments I think everybody showed a HECK of a lot more restraint than we have in the past.
Posted by greg fairbrother (Member # 6522) on :
She quickly understood where she was in the wrong place and stepped back. I guess everyone is entitled to free speech and to their opinions but not in a forum where such things are not allowed because it doesn't go with any reasons why we have this forum at all. Sorry to hear you are having health concerns Steve. I am brand new to this forum and am pleased to join this group and I have read the rules of becoming a resident and will be joining that in the near future. I think this forum is a great place to share and learn from and I know how easy it is at times for things to get out of hand (not that this post really got out of hand) I think the proper conduct is to quickly remove a questionable post and send a PM to the offender explaining the removal of the post and to direct the person to the rules and all done in a tasteful manner. But their is really no need for anyone to attack anyone regardless. "A man convinced against his will... is of the same opinion still" is something that I learned long ago and there are other people out there that hold Nancys conviction; we just don't buy into it and move on; at least in this forum. Looking forward to my involvement in the forum. AND... to state what I posted earlier....Just because you donate time to create something for an organization doesn't mean you give up all control over the processes that concern you. Basically, if it doesn't feel right to you and is going to bother you then speak your concerns and if they don't budge then politely move on. They will always find someone who will do the freebie.
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
quote: The subject provokes strong emotion.
Your own words demonstrate that you were well aware that this was one of those subjects that provokes strong emotions. If you already knew there was a good chance this topic would go South, why post it?
We all have choices.
There was one post where the word "moron" was used. I found this to be more offensive to me than anything else and removed the offending post. There's nothing I can do if you want to find new reasons to dislike each other on chat, email or telephone, but I'm not going to sit back and watch it happen in a public Forum I created.
First Law Of Letterville.
We are a Community of individuals dedicated to a Movement known as Letterheads. Personal attacks have no place in our Letterville Community. Any malicious comments intended to embarrass, humiliate or hurt another Letterville user will be deleted. Repeated failure to respect this simple rule will lead to loss of your posting privileges.
The above is our proposed wording ofthe First Law Of Letterville. Any constructive comments? How's my spelling?
[ May 13, 2006, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
Steve,
"Any malicious or thoughtless comments which may be deemed to embarrass, humiliate or hurt another Letterville user, whether by intent or unintentionally , will be deleted."
I don't think you need to end up defending your decisions as to whether the intent was there and I can see that being the first can of worms opened. It also will cover the feelings of those who posted in the event it was just thoughtless and not intentional. If it is hurtful it should be gone!
It gives you the right to make the decision, and that is how it should be.
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
Oh, and by the way - for your spelling - there is a spell check feature in Letterville. Posted by Barry Branscum (Member # 445) on :
Steve---In truth the function of the place I did the design work for was never at issue. In fact it never entered my mind. Nancy stirred the pot with slanted and left bent remarks...c'mon! Tumor, anyone?
I respect the law of the land and don't support "clinic-picketing"--but IN LETTERVILLE does one now have to think--"eww...I better not post this sign because the SUBJECT MATTER might offend someone outta the BLUE? What's next, CHURCH SIGNS? (Sorry John Deaton)
I never in my wildest dreams thought that my discussion about a client who didn't know an improvement in design when they see one would descend into a rout about the big "A" word.
Of the "offending" posts, sans Nancy's, all but THREE were made by Residents. Compared to the past, I still say we did pretty dang good.
Heck I all but apologized to the lady ON THREAD (and you can imagine the emails and IM's that one got me) because I am trying along with others to respect the "law".
BOTTOMLINE: All I am saying is we have done a heck of a lot worse, and your post kinda made a lot of folks--most paying members of the site--look like intolerant jerks with your apology without rebuke.
"SHE'S OKAY--and we're the bad guys?"
It's your house--and I do my best these days to play by the rules. This thread was ON TOPIC, til it got hijacked. Are we now gonna go further down the road of "Shalt not's" and say not only can you not talk politics and religion,(which I have no issue with at all) but you must further never post any design or sign that might in the least offend anybody imaginable? okaaay.. Then no more restaurant signs--OP is a vegetarian.
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
You missed my point Barry. We are all ok as long as we wear our Letterhead hats while we are in Letterville. The choice is up to us.
Addressed to all...
If my manner seems harsh I apoligize. It's not my intention to place blame for these various dramas that pop up, but it is my job to see it stops.
Our first step is coming up with a few easy to understand Laws Of Letterville. We're working on that right now.
The next step is harder. We have get back to thinking of a Letterville where we are all one in spirit. It's understandable that we all have our own groups of friends. Once our Letterhead hats are off, we're all different. We'll drift into groups based on our own values and beliefs. There's nothing wrong with that as long as we remember who and/or what brought us to the dance.
Think back. There was a time we were all strangers. Then a few started to gather because they wanted to learn and share something they all had a great passion for. Others heard about these meets and were invited to join in. 30 years later, thousands are involved. Letterheads exist in every corner of the World.
I met all my best pals through Letterhead Meets and Letterville. Some of you became more than friends. We've seen new marriages and Families formed as a direct result of a burning desire we should all share to meet each other in person.
Like it or not, we are all here because of something called Letterheads. Everything else is second place when we are gathered together. If we allow ourselves to lose sight of the ball and split into groups based on our own selfish likes and dislikes, we'll begin to lose the magic.
Just my opinion, but I am a Letterhead Fanatic first. At least until I hit the Add Reply button.
[ May 13, 2006, 08:18 PM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
Steve, It sounds as though this is at least partially open to discussion, so I'll say some things I've pondered for a long time.
-If I sat down and thought about the difficulties of running this place, I might see the tip of the iceburg. It's real easy for me to become more of a hypocrite than I already am in matters like this, because they can become complex. For instance:
-I think that a lot of government laws are passed as a reaction to people disregarding each other. If people took the wishes of others more seriously, there would be less laws, and I of course, prefer less government.
-On the other hand, I'm responsible to say certain things. I've wondered that if there is a place where I'm prohibited from saying those things, maybe I shouldn't go there at all, or go there for business only.
-On the other hand, maybe the responsibility is no longer on me. If the moderator disallows certain speech, the responsiblity falls on him.
-On the other hand, if the job is tedious now, think how difficult it will be when it's time to split hairs and decide what is political, religious, etc, and what isn't. That is one job I don't envy.
- This time I am in agreement with Barry. The people here have shown a lot of maturity, treating them as youngsters that need hard absolute rules won't advance this dilemma toward resolve, or advance the wisdom of it's participants.
-I am also in complete agreement with rule number one. People that tear others down with name calling are lame in their actions, and demonstrating a big vulnerability in the arena of debate/ discussion/discourse. They have committed a logical fallacy, and are liable to having their argument disassembled in public.
-There have been times when a debate got stale, old, whatever, and you stepped in, shut it down, bam! Over. I got a kick and a grin out of that. Not sure how to explain it, but it's like that's your job, "we love ya man" slam the thing with no hard feelings from the mature participants, and let's go to the next subject. Not always a need for a precise explanation of why a thread gets shut down, it just 'didn't feel right'. I myself would rather have that situation than a broadstroke, heavy set of rules.
I still get a kick out of your joke about the kool-aid Posted by Russ McMullin (Member # 5617) on :
quote:Originally posted by Steve Shortreed: I want to apologize to Nancy on behalf of Letterville. It's not her fault that I have not taken the time to spell out our policy regarding religious, political, and other potentially contraversal posts. How was she to know?
I agree that rules need to be clearly posted so they can be followed better. But, I don't see where Nancy stands blameless and in need of an apology. She started the problem by using extremely inflammatory language, which wouldn't be wise in any forum - online or otherwise. She has obviously given the topic plenty of thought, so she knew full well the reaction it would get.
Regardless of one's feelings on the abortion issue, pro or con, someone else's post isn't the forum for it. This bulletin board isn't the forum for it. She should know better, and probably does.
Posted by Carl Wood (Member # 1223) on :
WOW - Wht a Fire - Ball this topic has evolved into - - -I'm still shaking over the "Tu-mor" reference - highly offensive -
as usual, Russ has the voice of reason. . . .thanks, Carl
edited to add: hey I got scolded pretty bad just for having my first photo's I posted too large -
![[I Don t Know]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
stopped in today with her "logo that I came up with ::giggle::" It's the font Kid Type Paint in Lime Green and Tangerine Orange alternating every other letter. Worst thing ever. "Maybe you could come up with something better?", she asks.![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Rolling On The Floor]](graemlins/rolf.gif)
![[For Your Information]](graemlins/fyi.gif)
It wasn't that long ago that I would have been content to do a sign like that. That speaks wonders for this site. We all start somewhere. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Happy Mother's Day!![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)