This 4'x24' PEPSI sign is just 4 years old. It started to chalk after the "first year"! The photo doesn't do it justice. The shinny spot was cleaned with wax cleaner. I'm shocked at how bad it looks! Paint, as we knew it a few years ago, is GONE! I have 12'x36' billboards at Watkins Raceway that are 10 years old and look great. Paint was Paint!
There are also (12) 4'x4' double sided SIRIUS Satellite signs in the same condition.
I was told not to use this paint, but I tried it. Is there anyone out there that has done large boards and had luck with a particular brand lasting more than a year??
I know Ronan is a Merchant here, but .......... Posted by Dave Correll (Member # 100) on :
That's too bad. I've had really good luck using a quality acrylic latex. It won't oxidize like oil based paints.I don't think the brand makes much of a differnce. I use Sherwin Williams mainly because in the small town I live in, that's really my only choice. It's a little tricky to work with but have had good results with it.
Posted by Amy Brown (Member # 1963) on :
Tony,
I know you hate latex but if you buy the right kind you'll be a lot happier. I have high dollar dimensional HDU signs in our harsh Florida sun, rain and hurricanes that look like the day we put them up. All of my alkyd enamel signs look like your picture in less than 1 year.
I use Benjamin Moore Impervex Waterbased, Porter and my favorite is Coronado but it's hard to find.
Ronan has been the absolute worst for us.
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Automotive paint.
Maybe work with the track and see if they can't work out a sponsorship deal with one of the automotive paint people, making product part of the deal. You get to use product that's going to last without spending a dime on it and the track, well they get signs that will probably outlast the sponsorship deals.
Hell, if they're getting money from Pepsi and Sirius they have the money to pay you for the additional cost of the material.
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
Tony - what happened to the panel in the photo is why I switched to 100% acrylic latex. I know you have said that you would never have any in your shop...but I also said that a long time ago.
We have signs all over Central Texas that were done with latex and are holding up well in the Texas sun. And we have signs that look like what you have shown that we did with enamels. It was a no-brainer for me.
Use only top of the line stuff or you will be disappointed. Porter is my favorite, followed by Sherwin Williams Super Paint.
Good luck.
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
If you continue to use sign enamels and reducers at this point, that will be the future of any of your work. I've explained this scenario many times in the past but for some reason many still believe the sales pitch of company men compared to extensive usage. All sign enamels today are lead-free and most colors use dyes instead of pigments and resins for binders so the course taken in the past just doesn't work. Even a striper like myself has taken precautions to stop this kind of abuse by changing certain additives which bring longevity to my own work. These are the additives which produce a high gloss and stay that way.
Tony, I too am disappointed with any paint which dosen't do what its supposed to do. The real problem lies in the users whose been doing the same product in the same way for years and never changed their program. I've heard it all, from this is the way my mentor taught me, to this is the way is done, enuff said! Well, I use several different modes and for color as well.
Oh well Posted by Tony Vickio (Member # 2265) on :
Thanks for the responses! The next sign I paint will be with Sherwin Williams Super Paint!!!I'm done.........I know I said I'd never use Latex but guess what! I'm eating my own words! I've had it with all these "Temporary Coatings" out there! Thanks for getting me to see the light!
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
Another convert sees the light! Good luck, Tony.
Posted by Michael Boone (Member # 308) on :
next thing ya know....Tony will bail on redwood and switch to HDU.... no hope for us oldies....
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
But us oldies can still adapt Michael.
I can paint a redwood sign and an HDU sign with the same paint, same number of coats...everything....the paint will hold up better on the HDU one. And the HDU will never crack or check.
That Sherwin Williams Superpaint is excellent stuff.
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
what irritates me is there is no reply from One-shot or Ronan to date on these threads.
[ March 29, 2006, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: Bob Rochon ]
Posted by Jerry Starpoli (Member # 1559) on :
Is there a certain Sherwin Williams Superpaint that works for our applications or is it just off the shelf? Since "they" took the lead out, I have been using Ronan with hardener for about 5 years with very good success.
Posted by Bobbie Rochow (Member # 3341) on :
Tony, does this mean you are going latex for your letters, too?
I am FINALLY getting the hang of hand lettering, & you guys are chnaging paints on me!
One more thing.... the weather. Raymond, you live in texas, & Joey, I don't know where you are from, but New York is cold in Winter, & so is PA here. Does hot/cold weather have anything to do with this?
Posted by W. R. Pickett (Member # 3842) on :
....hehe, Never say never!
Posted by Robert Salyers (Member # 5) on :
I'm still sweating it out with one shot! It's not the same anymore either. Just got done lettering a boat! I can't do a boat with latex!
[ March 30, 2006, 07:20 AM: Message edited by: Robert Salyers ]
Posted by bruce ward (Member # 1289) on :
both companies suck! and dont expect a very good answer from either one. i have emailed one shot and it took way too long to answer me and the "answer" to my question was a bunch of " i dont know what the hell im talking about, but here goes answer"
bascoat clearcoats or latex. i have even painted with rustoleum and clearcoated over it....ad od not think it has not stood the test of time.
one shot quart 16.00 rustoleum quart 8.00 heres a no brainer! i do let the rustoleun cure out for about 2 good days before i clear because it will wrinkle it the clear is too hot
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
AND STILL THE PAINT COMPANIES KEEP SILENT Posted by Dale Feicke (Member # 767) on :
I've been using more latex paints too, but still don't care much for them for good stuff. It always leaves a 'pebbly' background if you roll it, and brush marks never disappear. I've tried Foltrol, and it's only marginal.
After living in Florida for 5 years, I experienced paint failure all over, both latex and oil base. With all the solvents and lead out of oil base, it's not great anymore. And, even latex is not what it used to be. It's much thinner, and doesn't fill imperfections like it used to.
Automotive paint is good, but very hazardous and very expensive. Very wasteful also. Many times, you have to buy a 'package' of paint, reducer, hardener, etc. that makes a batch. If you don't need it all, too bad. It hardens up and goes to waste.
I truly wish One Shot and all the other manufacturers would work on a real solution. I do love to do hand lettering, but also want to give my customers a quality job. I don't understand why, with the minute quantity of paint that we sighpainters use, they couldn't have kept all the good (bad) stuff in there. And somebody please explain why (just like gas) we have to pay more for it when they leave stuff out. Go figure.
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
A few years ago I was asked by one of the One Shot reps at an exhibit to write some of the "big wigs" about the problems we were having with their paints and why I had switched to latex.
The letter went into detail about our history as sign painters and the association we had with their company over the years and then the problems that were being observed.
I listed pros and cons of both types of paints. A lot of time was spent documenting my observations.
The letter was sent and the reps said that they received it and copies were passed around to the head honchos.
I never received a reply...either in writing, phone call or a response through the reps. My contact was very upset because he truely wanted to make the paint right and to help us out with the problems we are having.
My solution was to change paint types. Latex is not the perfect solution, but it is a world of difference better than what I was using before.
To answer a question someone made about Sherwin Williams Super Paint...we use the stuff that's right off the shelf, custom mixed to whatever we want. Even though it is a good paint, I still prefer Porter.
Posted by Dave Correll (Member # 100) on :
Here are some solutions we discovered while adapting to using acylic latex.
I use Sherwin Williams superpaint. For dimesional signs, I use the satin finish because I like the look of it, the finished sign doesn't look so plastic as it does with a gloss paint. We generally use rollers and brushes for satin finishes. For flat work, I use the gloss superpaint mainly for the backgrounds. I generally spray the background colors with a Wagner spray painter. They're noisy as all heck but they are easy to clean and do a good job of spraying the heavy bodied latex. I found that when we rolled the finish on, you get a texture to the finish which makes it difficult to get vinyl or mask to stick to it. We thin the paint with a product made by Flood called Floetrol. It's kind of like penetrol for oil based paints. For smaller sized projects, like dimensional letters, we use a HVLP gravity feed gun for coating and blends. Vinyl sticks well to both the satin and gloss finishes.
We still use lettering enamel, mainly Ronan, with hardener. It all depends on the job. For vehicles, boats, etc. we still would use lettering enamel. These thigs usually get washed and waxed often so the lettering enamel finish will not have a chance to oxidize, as opposed to a sign on a building 12' up.
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
We use the Floetrol in our latex for hand painting and detail work on our dimensional signs. For painting the surface of sandblasted letters, a foam brush gives a very smooth finish.
I usually thin my latex with water and spray through an HVLP gun for large surfaces. On dark painted signs with just gloss latex, the finish is so smooth you can see your reflection in it. Like Dave said, vinyl and sandblast resist sticks to it very well.
Posted by Tony Vickio (Member # 2265) on :
My first "LATEX" job will be coming up soon! I can't wait! It is a scarry thought that what we make our livings with, "paint", sucks so bad!!! I had a guy bring a PT Cruiser in last week that I did a little over a year ago, Maroon stripes, they are PINK!!!!! I can't believe these paint companies are getting away with selling CRAP!!!!!! I'm really getting sick of it!!!
Posted by Michael Boone (Member # 308) on :
I striped a pickup a year ago with maroon with some harderer in it.. Its flaking right off already and yes...the surface was prepped correctly
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
The bad thing for us old guys is we expect the stuff to be the same. Evere read anything on the can about it being a new formula? I don't do any signs at all anymore so I'm not faced with too many problems. As for striping, I swithed over to urethanes probably right around the time One Shot went in the toilet. Urethanes, like latex, take a long time to get used to but I've found I can letter with them quite well. I don't think I'd want to try doing a 4x8 with them but a set of truck doors is no sweat.
Oh, and the urethanes WILL NOT flake off. After a month, you can't get it off even if you want to.
Posted by Tony Vickio (Member # 2265) on :
I guess this is the best way to put a background color on!!!!
VINYL!!!!!!!!! Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
Tell me if I'm wrong but, aren't they making "urethane latex" now? Sherwin is making it now and it's supposed to be super-duper durable stuff. But I haven't tried any yet.
Posted by Nancy Waller (Member # 6428) on :
Tony, Perhaps you should tell your customer that this was one of your "antiqued" signs! Nancy
Posted by Tony Vickio (Member # 2265) on :
Hey Nancy, that's a good one! Never thought of that.
Posted by Gary Hove (Member # 4970) on :
I have been using a product that I used for my industrial painting. Amerom Psx 1001, a single component acrylic siloxane, works great for covering industrial structures so I thought what the heck it woud work good for background paint.
Posted by Gene Golden (Member # 3934) on :
I started a thread about the Ronan Aquacote paints, but few replied.
Have you guys tried them, and what do you think? I love them, but I don't know about the long term durability.
Posted by Tony Vickio (Member # 2265) on :
Hi Gene, after my experiences with Ronan, I put them in the same catagory as Avery! They have broken me! I'm actually going to use LATEX!!!
Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
Regarding the "antiqued" sign, Rick Flores, one of the original Letterheads, had a shop in Denver named "The Rustic Sign Studio". He told me if someone voiced a complaint about a sign, he would just tell them, "Hey, it's rustic."
Posted by Mark Stokes (Member # 5351) on :
I would like to here from the Aussie guys what they use. I have used solver brite glo enamel for my long term signs, but the enamel does chalk. I have used solver low sheen acrylic and the colour does hold out but i am wary of putting vinyl on straight away as it is hard to get it to stick. The cost of paint in australia especially enamel is getting pricey(litre brite glo average $40-50 a litre) so the last sign i did I got a spraypainter to do it in 2 pack, i will be interested to see how long it lasts.
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
I can unerstand you guys using the acrylics for primers and backgrounds, but what do you do your lettering with? I certainly wouldn't consider sticking my favorite quills into that stuph.
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
Rick - I use quills that are specially made for acrylics and the feel is not all that different than enamels, just something you have to get used to. And you have to double coat, but since it dries so quickly it can be done immediately.
Mack Water Base - Series 2179. Comes in quills, flats, liners, etc.
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
Perhaps Percell's have that line of brushes and I can give it a try. We have no SW or Porter brands around here, just Bennie Moore. Do they make a decent line of acrylic that you think I might not be discouraged by?
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