I am doing the final sanding on my first cedar sign. I am going to prime it with Jay Cooks sign primer. How many coats should I use before painting it with One shot and should I waite 24 hours between coats? Thanks for the help.
Posted by Joe Cieslowski (Member # 2429) on :
Jim,
I'm just curious.....what grit paper did you finish with?
BTW I've only used clear on Cedar and that was just once. So I can't help much in that department.
Joe,
Makin Chips and Havin Fun!
Posted by Ron Carper (Member # 999) on :
I had a problem with Jay Cookes primer on cedar. The top coat of white latex turned light tan color in just several weeks. Next time I'm using a stain killer p[rimer like Bin 123 Not positive it was the primer but the color of the cedar bleed thru, don't know what else it could be.
Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
Cedar and Redwood are high in tannin, which will bleed through as many coats of water based finishes you care to apply, whether or not they are advertised as stain blocking. Oil based primers will generally stop the tannin migration.
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
James, Is this sign sandblasted?
You can prime the entire sign with solid color stain. If the sign is sandblasted, you can spray the whole thing with solid color latex stain of the same color as the background(blasted areas) will be.
Lightly sand the first coat, with 220 paper, on the raised areas. Then coat again. The tannins WILL be trapped in the first coat 95% of the time UNLESS the stain is either white, or another very light color. The second coat will be fine. You might have to spot-prime some occasional knots. You can topcoat the stain with OneShot but I prefer acrylic latex. It lasts better in my neck of the woods.
This 32''x93'' sign is laminated from 4'' thick western cedar posts and is painted the same way and there is no bleeding. It's about 12 years old and the paint was holding up great....with the exception of the red, which was fading. The only reason we repainted it was because I was tired of the colors.
If it is a carved, or routed sign, you can brush the stain on.
Posted by james chrimes (Member # 5864) on :
Thanks for the help everyone. I will post some pictures of it today. I am painting this for another sign shop down the road that can't do any hand painting. I am not real happy with their color pattern but they are paying me good money to paint and gold leaf it for them. I sanded it with 120 grit paper and was thinking that I could sand the primer also. The sign was routerd and is a simple design. Wayne you have some nice work there.
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
Thanks for the compliment James.
We've used JC primer on HDU signs. It should do just fine on the cedar. I don't have a can right in front of me, but would go by the manufacturer's recommendation on dry time and sanding between coats. I do know that Jay Cookes will "gum or ball-up" on the sandpaper if it isn't good and dry.
[ March 15, 2006, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
Posted by Jay Allen (Member # 195) on :
David is right. You cannot stop tannin bleed with water-based primers. None.
Besides, oil keeps moisture out of the wood - and water-based allows moisture to pass in AND out. Better to do it like the California Redwood Assoc. recommends - oil primer only.
We tint our white primer with dark brown primer to get a grayish color. That stops ALL bleeds and is a good base coat for dark OR light colors.
Another thing we do with great success is to "paint" the end grain of the sign boards with West System epoxy. This freezes the cell structure and stops absorption through the end grain - the part of a board that accepts the moisture. We've done it that way for 20 years now and have never had a failure - and our boards split and check less at the end than any other redwood or cedar sign we've seen others produce around our area.
I'm in N. Illinois so we see everything from 90%-plus humidity to temp ranges from 0 to 100. The area you are in will always cause signs to do different things than other places - so keep that in mind.
But excess moisture is wood's worst enemy. Use the oil primer and you'll be lots happier. (Unless you have a tight deadline and can't wait for the oil primer to dry!!)
[ March 15, 2006, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: Jay Allen ]
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
Jay, The white primers may bleed, but we have made hundreds of sandblasted signs out of redwood and had no problems with tannin bleed on any of them using solid-color waterbased stain as the primer. Tannins are trapped in the first coat. Cedar is more prone to bleed than redwood, as far as my experience goes, and the only time I can remember any bleed problem was when I primed with a very pale "baby blue" stain.
But the western cedar sign above has never bled and it has been coated with solid color waterbased stain for about 12 years.
I noticed that James mentioned "red cedar". I didn't catch that earlier. If he's referring to the aromatic "eastern red cedar", That may be a whole different problem.
Posted by Jay Allen (Member # 195) on :
Hey Wayne. We used to use water-based solid color stains also. You're right. They DO work well. We switched to paint once we started adding lots of black to our outlines, etc. - and made the change because the black solid color stain was too thin - and not available in gloss (we stick vinyl to the black for two-color letters). We didn't want to mix paint AND solid color stains - so we switched.
We still saw tannin bleed with white/light colors - but no other colors would bleed (or so it appeared). I REALLY like solid color stains because I have seen them last so long. In fact, that's the best choice for painting treated posts. No primer - just the stain right on the posts.
I painted my whole house in water-based, solid color stain. If I get less than 15 years out of it, I'll eat the old cans!!
So - the answer is . . . depending on your color scheme, either method works!!
Thanks for bringing that to my attention!!
[ March 15, 2006, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: Jay Allen ]
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
I've done that a few times as well...stick vinyl to black gloss acrylic latex....making a black outline. I have a couple of these that are several years old now, one is cypress the other is redwood, and the vinyl is sticking just fine.
[ March 15, 2006, 11:45 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
Posted by Joe Crumley (Member # 2307) on :
I took the advice, a few years ago, from Kent Smith that water based primers were as good at traping tannons as oil base. Dang that advice got me in lots of trouble.
I suppose you can get away with it once in a while, but it's dicey. I'd never use anything other than oil based stain killers.
