I have a long time customer that has turned into a dead beat. First, before everyone starts saying I should always get deposits and such...know this: I've done work for this person for 15+ years and ALWAYS got paid without incident. I grew to trust this person and even thought of him as a friend.
November 2004, I put full color graphics on 3 delivery vans for this fellow and he has yet to pay for them. He has an assortment of reasons for not paying (none of them having anything to do with me or the workI did). I have no idea if this would be legal or not, but am curious to know if any of you have done this or what you think the lagality of it might be. I want to put "Wheel Locking Boots" on his 3 vans one night and see if that will stimulate payment. He is a Florist that constantly delivers flowers, so I know this would really hurt him if I did it.
At this point the relationship/friendship is gone, I just want my money!
[ February 16, 2006, 06:24 PM: Message edited by: James McLain ]
Posted by Ryan E Young (Member # 2325) on :
The job is done you can only take him to court. You cannot even remove the work.
Posted by James McLain (Member # 4877) on :
How do you know I cannot remove the work Ryan? Have you been down this road before?
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
dont even think about boot lock his trucks without a court order,,
a serruptitious drive by with some 3M wodd grain vinyl remover might feel good. But I wouldnt ever do that. .Id rather drag his butt thru a court and make him suffer the wrath of a stress and panic attack,,
Believe me,, I know..
[ February 16, 2006, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: Curtis hammond ]
Posted by coop (Member # 504) on :
Look into placing a "Mechanic's Lien" on him. It can be very effective.
DISCLAIMER: this post is only my opinion,and should not be used as a substitute for competent legal counsel. This may or may not produce the desired results.
Posted by James McLain (Member # 4877) on :
Coop, I looked into the Mechanic's Lien, but it's been too long. I only had 4 months max to file the lien. Plus, I did this work on a "handshake" basis. There was no written contract (as I said above...this is a person for whom I've done work for over 15 years without incident...a written contract didn't even cross my mind).
[ February 16, 2006, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: James McLain ]
Posted by Ian Stewart-Koster (Member # 3500) on :
What actually are these irrelevant excuses?
Posted by jake snow (Member # 5889) on :
Number 1: Why have you let it go on for over a year.
Number 2: Court is gonna take you a bunch of time (aka money)
Number 3:Do you know anybody in the Jamaican mob? (bout' the only way your gonna get anything out of this) Unless you can poison his flowers.
Number 4: your screwed
Number 5: Sorry
Sometimes ya gotta eat stuff that wasn't on the menu. And that really sucks. Been there, and it's a hard lesson learned, trust me.
Even if it is a customer that you've had for 50 years, you should always get a deposit. I mean, what if the guy got hit by a car before the job was done? Or got arrested? Ya gotta cover your seating apparatuses, period.
Posted by Mike O'Neill (Member # 470) on :
If you can't get paid get even...
I had one guy owned a sports store, then opened a bar/restaurant ... he owed me $600 for restaurant signage for over a year, got tired of calling & waiting so I went to his sports shop with my (then) 14 year old son and picked out a fine mountain bike and charged it to my shop. About 3 months later his wife calls looking for money for the bike... good laugh!
... so what does this guy deliver anyway?
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
You can't legally use boot-locks unless you're the lein holder on the vehicle title and he's not makin' the notes . . .
I reckon there's no end to what you can do illegally . . . lol
Can someone tell me why we can't 'repo' signs??
You might try small claims court if you have paperwork to substantiate the claim . . .
Posted by James McLain (Member # 4877) on :
Well Ian, he moved to a new location and he had to spend $180,000 in legal fees and court costs to get town approvals for the site. He puts lots and lots of "lawn ornaments" and decorations out. The town considered them a "traffic hazard" and gave him a REALLY hard time. That $180,000 sucked away all his working capital, so he is strapped for cash! All his excuses are related to the no cash problem. Anyway...
So Jake, you have no customers that are exempt from the 50% deposit rule?
I let it go on for over a year because I originally trusted him and was at least temporarily sympathetic to his cash flow problems related to his relocating costs. Now, months and months later and a few bounced partial payment checks, I'm fed up with him.
Posted by James McLain (Member # 4877) on :
I can't take him to small claims court since he owes me more than the "small claim" maximum of $2500. So, I would have to take him to the "normal" civil court and bring a laywer. My business is incorporated, so I can't simply represent myself. I must bring a laywer. So, now we're talking big bucks and a lot of aggravation to bring this guy to justice.
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
James, you last statement changed the playing field.
To address your initial post: Having no deposit and no signed contract... unless he admits in court that he owes you this money, the chances of you winning were slim & none. Wheel boots... gotta check with the local governing body. Here, they are ONLY used for cars that owe lotsa parking tickets. (Not even for not making car payments, Sheila. Tow trucks are used for that.)
Now last post changes that. You now have bounced partial payment checks. Those are a whole different ballgame. Go to your friendly neighborhood court & talk to them there. See if you can file for EACH bounced check (do this seperately) AND file for nonpayment for the total amount due (less the amt of bounced checks) since you now have some sort of paper proving he owes some type of debt to you. When you win (and you WILL win for the bounced checks) he has to repay you for all the court filing fees...for EACH case you filed.
Keep us informed as to what happens!
Posted by jake snow (Member # 5889) on :
James.... if it's over $100 than I get a deposit. My "good" customers that I have had for a long time do not have a problem with this. I don't know how big your shop is, but mine is a 1 to 1 1/2 man shop. Cashflow is the reason for the deposits with the "long term" customers. They understand that I don't keep alot of material in house and that I do biz job to job. If you are honest with customers about this, most won't have a problem. If they do, then they are not the trust worthy kind to begin with.
Long time customers or not, if you start the biz relationship with deposits, then they expect them. I never order material until I get a deposit. I have lost time on layouts before. That happens no matter who you are. But if there is out of pocket money, I always get a deposit.
Good customers understand this, the rest well.....
Edited to say.... We have "repoed signage in the past for nonpayment. Never had the fisrt problem with doing that. BUT.. since your are on vehicles, you might wanna check with your lawyer about that (destruction of property). Good luck and I really do hope that you can get this settled.
[ February 16, 2006, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: jake snow ]
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
Just re-read Mike O'Neill's post and the wheels started to turn.
Come up with a list of every customer you've ever had. Order flowers (and/or balloons if they have those too) for everyone. Bill it to your shop. Great self-promotion tool. Everyone sends their customers candy, fruit or whatever at Christmas.
How many have ever sent flowers or balloons on a Monday in February just because? Trust me, your customers WILL remember this, unlike the mounds of candy that they can't remember are from who.
When you get the bill, send a copy of it back with your bill for the vans.
Posted by James McLain (Member # 4877) on :
I guess I have a different type of client base Jake. Many of my clients are other businesses or local town governments that expect me to invoice them. For example, I have one realtor that gives me $100,000 worth of business every year. I get orders from her every week and payments that come like clockwork every 30 days. Should I really expect her to be sending me small deposits on every job? Sit in her shoes for a moment: wouldn't you feel that your vendor should at some point have enough trust in you to pay in 30 days?
This guy is not in the $100,000 category (few are), but still we're talking thousands of dollars worth of business every year. He always paid before...
I invoice lots of customers with no problems. At any one time I might have $30,000 to $60,000 of work billed out.
It's just so frustrating when these long term "good customers" go bad. Other than perpetually treating everybody as a new customer with 50% down and 50% upon completion, I don't know how to avoid this situation.
I have started pushing most of my new customers toward paying with credit cards. This helps cash flow and takes away most of my risks. Still, many businesses and government entities deal only with Net 30 terms.
I guess what I'm saying is there is a gray area in the "Deposit Required" rule. I don't think I can expect high volume business customers and local goverments to adhere to the 50% deposit rule. Plus I think if I offer no credit at all, which is essentially what you are saying Jake, then I will lose some business.
Posted by Harry Ellis (Member # 6353) on :
quote:Originally posted by James McLain: I can't take him to small claims court since he owes me more than the "small claim" maximum of $2500. So, I would have to take him to the "normal" civil court and bring a laywer. My business is incorporated, so I can't simply represent myself. I must bring a laywer. So, now we're talking big bucks and a lot of aggravation to bring this guy to justice.
Something similar happened to me. It was all handshake but it was 3 jobs and I filed them as 3 seperate contracts because they were all ordered seperately. I took him into small claims (3 different times) within the statue of $3000 max in the local jurisdiction. It's not that I look forward to hauling someone into small claims but this "friend" eventually deserved it (long story).
I represented myself and won every time. Not only did he pay me, he had to pay 2 different lawyers and there not cheap here in the Hamptons.
Oh yeah, beating a lawyer is a DAMN GOOD feeling. Although the facts speak for themselves. Even though you don't have anything signed or in writing, you must have notes, production orders, material invoices, etc.
hang in there and get your money
Good Luck,
Harry
[ February 16, 2006, 08:37 PM: Message edited by: Harry Ellis ]
Posted by coop (Member # 504) on :
Maybe you can play the "shame game". Letter a vehicle with MR. FLORIST will not pay his bills, and park it next door/ across the street/ in front of the mall/ etc...
???? Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
Well now,, u have several bounced checks,, That shows proof of a verbal contract. You can win this. You will win this,,
Also, if those checks are over a certain amount then it is a felony not to retrieve them. You have even more ammo to defeat this dead beat.
The real reason so many simply give up and say its not worth it is because of the way they feel about going to a court room. It causes anxiety no matter what the reason you go there. I've spent hours in court rooms and never lost a case.
Goto small claims court. Get the judgement. And when he does not pay go back to court and get the judge to pass a collection order. Then the sheriff will goto his place and simply take nice items, and auction them until the bill is paid.
Its not that dificult. It is doable and very gratifying when you win,, and then even more gratifying when you see the sheriff go into his place and take his stuff.
Posted by John Deaton (Member # 925) on :
If you dont go the court way, and it looks to me like Curtis said, go to his business place every single day carrying a copy of the invoice he owes you, in plain sight. Make sure customers hear you ask for your money, and if he dont pay that day, tell him you will be back tomorrow at the same time, but dont go at the same time. Go an hour later or hour earlier. FInd one of your friends that is really big and tough looking and take him with you every time. It may not work, but sure will be fun to intimidate him a little. You could even hire someone to collect it for you by offering them a percentage. Again, some big ugly dude to do that. If hes already made partial payment and the checks bounced, youve got him by the cahunas and court would be the way to go. He'll have to pay or get his stuff seized. I wish you luck. I hate deadbeats.
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
If you have bounced checks you got proof of "Theft By Check".
Go get 'im.
You could also work a deal with him like some credit card companies will do. Call him up, offer to reduce the amount he owes by 50% if and ONLY if he can pay that 50% amount in full, on the spot.. with a cashier's check. At the least you'll be done with him and have at least some of the money.
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
I'm not sure, but as tempting as it seems, making signs that say " so and so is a deadbeat" MIGHT be called slander. It's probably one of the reasons there's such a thing as small claims court, so that this sort of thing doesn't happen.
Just guessing.
Posted by Harris Kohen (Member # 2139) on :
James Welcome to New Jersey....
Small claims court is your first avenue. If you do like a few others said, split up the invoices somehow then you can use small claims court to your advantage, you already have this guy in admittance of debt via the bounced checks which is a criminal offense and he cannot walk away from it. He wrote them, he pays them its the law.
My suggestion is to visit the county court in Freehold and have a talk with the powers that be there and then go with their advice. Before you go there see if you have seperate invoices for the different vehicles to keep yourself below the maximum amount for small claims. That will make it much easier to collect.
Good luck and keep us posted on the outcome.
OH and DONT do anything such as putting signs up outside his business or making comments in front of his customers. it could land you in a courtroom or worse yet a jail cell. use the govt apporved methods of collection and youll walk away with your money and if you play your cards right you get interest too.
[ February 17, 2006, 12:57 AM: Message edited by: Harris Kohen ]
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
you dont happen to have a "freindship with a good REPO MAN do ya????? have the repo man snatch his truck or 2 trucks...IMPOUND THEM....BILL HIM FOR TOWING AND STORAGE FEES.... see how long it takes for him to come up with some money.....and the repo man can tell him he was ordered by some bank..then after a week or so tell it i was an address mixup!!! dodo happens, cops bust down wrong doors, mail get delivered to wrong addy.....hehehehehehe
[ February 17, 2006, 01:06 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by Frank Magoo (Member # 3950) on :
Some very sound advice being given here, some not so, but that's a different horse indeed... My procedure for doing business is to collect a deposit before we do anything beyond, yes, we want you to do this for us...then and only then do I attend to business and procede as neccessary to fulfill job requirements, then collect balance due when done, makes for good business...if you wish to question as to if it works or not, I'm not the one posting this problem, nor have I ever; it works; 100% if played 100%; no exceptions, EVERYONE pays the fee... As to what to do about it, it's to late to get even; you've told the world...worst thing to do now is something that will cross legal and ethical lines, besides, revenge is not yours, it would mean that you have the power of judgement and that's simply not true...so, let it go if you don't persue it legally, which is what I would do if in your shoes under similiar circumstances, guy owes you, true...but don't chase a nickel w/a dollar either....revenge doesn't taste good if caught and best revenge is always served cold anyway, if it's yours to see, their payback will include you, and you didn't have to lift a hand......if you follow my meaning..... Chaulk it up as cheap lesson in business procedures and move on if not interested in legal route...and ALWAYS get a deposit!!!!!
Posted by Stephen Faulkner (Member # 2511) on :
23 years with a customer / close family friend. No deposit no contract.. NEVER needed one! cost me roughly $25k...
Hence forth... follow the Magoo Rule of business.
Prior to this I had a 100% collections rate and many clever collection stories.
Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :
You are billing one single customer 100k a year and you're worried about legal fees? If you really want your money from this guy, do it legally and take him to court. He will have to pay the court costs and attorney fees.
Posted by Bruce Williams (Member # 691) on :
"I'm not sure, but as tempting as it seems, making signs that say " so and so is a deadbeat" MIGHT be called slander." -------------------- Libel is what it might be called; libel is slander that is published. However, Truth is a defense against a Libel charge. That was established in the John Peter Zenger case when New York was still a colony.
So if you have bounced checks and other paper, you would prove the deadbeat is a deadbeat, and he'd be a fool to charge you ... Unless you went on his property or did something illegal.
In this instance, I'd follow Harris' advice about New Jersey.
When I finally collected from a Jerk in Kentucky, I didn't mind an attorney's collection fee. The court slapped a 12 percent interest on the balance-due, and that covered my costs.
Posted by James McLain (Member # 4877) on :
Yes Dave I still must watch my costs even though one of my clients is a $100K client. Along with such nice clients also comes big expenses. For example, my natural gas bill last month was $2300. Bigger business often just means bigger headaches. Anyway...
I just thought that perhaps since these "parking places" collecting petty amounts for over due parking tickets can use wheel locking boots that I might be able to as well. Wanted to see if anyone else had actually tried it. It would be so much more effective and economical than going to Civil Court.
Posted by Teresa Bostic (Member # 6214) on :
When I was fresh into the business my boss sent me on collections to one particular deadbeat. Every Friday I spent more and more time waiting for him to come to the bar in the restaurant to pick up a payment.
One particular day, after an hour and my Mom waiting for me to pick her up for a dr.s appt.I was steaming mad. I told him that each time I was having to wait a little longer and it wouldn't happen again. As I turned to leave I hung my sleeve on a newspaper stand and knocked it over. He started yelling at me saying I did it on purpose. Thinking quickly, I started acting like I was hurt. Ha!
He told me to get out and never come back. I dropped the fake act and said I HAD to come back, he still owed money. He wheeled around, got into the register and gave me the two grand. When I got back to the shop the cops were there, and my boss asks what did you do?
I didn't get in any trouble - but I was banned from the place. That's ok, I didn't like their food anyway. And my boss was impressed that I got the balance.
Dumb luck!
Posted by jack wills (Member # 521) on :
Just a quick note on this deal.... I had a customer in the past who wrote me a check for close to a grand. It bounced. I took it to the district attorney. He landed in jail and went through a trial for not only stiffing me but some others as well which put him in a grand larceny position. Before he could get out he had to pay everyone restitution (IN CASH) and all costs and fees. I got a call from his attorney and met him to collect my bread. This guy was East Indian, with very little scrupples. During one phone call to him, he said " I laugh at you because you are stupid". I said to him, "You are in Oakie country a$$hole and you will pay"
CrazyJack
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
James,
If the bounced checks for partial payment are related to the work done on the trucks, then you have him. Contact an attorney. Let him deal with the jerk so you can concentrate on your paying clients.
Your attorney needs to make sure that a lien is placed on the property so he can't sell anything off until you are paid. I ran into a similar situation back in the 1980's. Twelve years went by when a deadbeat client called and wanted to know how much he owed. He was trying to sell his building and couldn't because of the lien. Its amazing how much he had to pay in interests.
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