I have an 6'x4' Plinko board that I'm repainting for a local company. The board is mustard yellow with a black border. The logo was done with black vinyl. The deal is, the company got bought out so they need to switch the logo. When I pulled the old logo I realized that the board was painted with latex, then the vinyl was applied and then it was top coated with an oil based polyurethane (I called the board maker to verify).
I know I should take the board back down to wood but that's not an option within their budget. What's the easiest way to get things working again? Can I scuff up the entire surface and apply one-shot over the whole thing, let it set up a few days and then apply another vinyl logo? This won't be outside much if any. I'm used to working with PPG and HOK automotive urethanes so I'm a bit out of my element here.
TIA-Scott
[ January 04, 2006, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: Scott Brayshaw ]
Posted by Dave Draper (Member # 102) on :
Not with in thier budget? A new board verses the labor and materials to refinish? 6 x 4 foot?
Run while you still can. Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
yeah really! wtf is wrong with a company that BUYS another company and doesn't have the money to spend on their sign???? get your money up front!!! or run like dave said. i would reface it with aluminum. don't risk all the bullshyt of screwing around with an old paint job guessing what was used. new aluminum, paint it, vinyl it and be done with it.
Posted by Bob Stephens (Member # 858) on :
To keep it within their budget I would get a mop and coat out the old logo and then stick some cheap economy vinyl over it. Dont worry about the bubbles, they'll ride up with wear.
Sometime it pays more to just say no if they can't afford to do things the right way.
Posted by Tony Vickio (Member # 2265) on :
What Dave , Karyn and Bod said!!!!!
This could end up costing you!!!
Posted by Scott Brayshaw (Member # 4391) on :
Other than run, does anyone have any other suggestions or a response to my one-shot idea?
Thanks-Scott
Posted by Don Coplen (Member # 127) on :
Scott...Tony, Bob, Dave and Karyn are professionals with years of experience under their belts. The best advice I have is to take their advice. They're not shooting you wild guesses what to do.
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
Dittos what everyone said Scott . . . but, it's not an ideal world yet.
If you really need and want this job, do it. (Sand-scuff really well, or use an orbital sander and recoat) and explain to the customer that it could be a very limited lifetime situation.
I would not use Oneshot, but I would use an Industrial oil-based enamel. It'd take less than a quart to roll both sides.
Also, write that into your invoice or bill what you did and that you're not responsible for any complications from they're 'saving' money.
The reason for doing this is to establish some credibility for the kind of professional work (I hope) you wanna do in the future. To establish that you did this, NOT the prefered professional way, but that you allowed the customer to dictate the service according to their budget rather than your judgement.
So, nothings impossible . . .
Go ahead and do it. It will be a good experience. Watch what it does as time goes by, and see how it holds up. Report back to us how it does over the next coupl'a years.
By the way, there's a thread on the board here somewhere a guy asked about coating over some vinyl lettering on a billboard. Last word was, it worked out fine. I think he washed and scuffed the faces and rolled over the old copy.
Posted by Scott Brayshaw (Member # 4391) on :
So I think I'm gonna take an orbital sander to the yellow area and give it a good tooth. Then I'm going to jump back to what I'm familiar with: Automotive Urethanes. I'll spray on a primer/surfacer and move on like most of my other projects.
The project is in my shop now, the vinyl logo has been removed and the hundred or so bolts have been removed. It's a bit late to run and that's not something I want to do.
I'll be sure to post back with the results and appreciate everyone's feedback.
Thanks-Scott
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Next time you post a question, be willing to accept the answers you will get. If you want wait until you get the answer you want, don't hold yer breath.
You made up your mind long before this post started. Rapid
...not having my best day today...so sue me for being blunt
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
I'm a very lazy person and I work hard at it. And I believe that sometimes the best way to hide something is to make it obvious.
Not familiar with the shape of the old logo vs. the new logo, is it possible to simply create a panel using some 3mm pvc and overlaying on top of the old logo hiding it and put the new logo on top of the panel piece? (I hope I'm making sense here)
Posted by Scott Brayshaw (Member # 4391) on :
Actually, Rapid, I had no idea what I was going to do. I posted hoping to get options. A call to some other sign guys I know led me to the One-Shot option as well as the automotive urethane option (which I didn't get till after I posted here). I didn't think the automotive urethane would work over the Latex and Oil, and who knows, maybe it won't.
I'm fine with whatever anyone wants to suggest, I was just hoping for something other than duck and run. I see this as an opportunity and learning experience. If I go down in flames then it's on me.
Sorry you had a bad day.
Sheila & Glenn, this project isn't forgiving. It's a board that has about 100 bolts thru it and then triangular border pieces. Then slots at the bottom. The idea is that you drop a 'puck' at the top (with the board at a slight angle)and it bounces down off the various bolts and then lands in one of the slots at the bottom. So with all the bolts and the need for the puck to be able to slide/bounce down the board I can't really add anything to the board. Thanks for your suggestion. I'll keep it in mind as I'm still not 100% sure what I'm going to do.
Thanks-Scott
[ January 05, 2006, 01:22 AM: Message edited by: Scott Brayshaw ]
Posted by Ken Henry (Member # 598) on :
Easiest way that I can see, is to get a piece of similarly coloured vinyl, big enough to cover the logo you've removed. Sand smooth the affected area only, wipe clean, and apply the vinyl to cover that area only. The new logo can be applied directly over the new vinly "patch", and pinstripe a line around the "patch" so that it looks like that's what was intended.
Done, fixed, get the cash. No fuss, no really significant amount of time invested, and I'd bet the customer would be happy to do business with you when he's ready for a new one.
Posted by Ian Stewart-Koster (Member # 3500) on :
A temporary job that lasts a week then deteriorates due to incompatibility of oil/latex/vinyl/whatever plus day/night expansion
WILL
come back to haunt you, and they will forget any exclusions you put on theoriginal quote or invoice, and tell everyone they know who did their peeling sign...
Glen's creative idea of a new covering panel is good, as are the rest- don't try it at all- if they don't want a good job, you don't want the name associated with a bad job's failure...
Posted by Scott Brayshaw (Member # 4391) on :
Been reading more posts trying to get more information. If I understand correctly, oil based paint will work over latex but not the other way around?
This sign now has latex in areas and oil based clear in areas but I've scuffed it pretty good with a da. Is there a primer that I can spray over the surface that will work over both latex and oil that would then allow me to use whatever I want, like the automotive urethanes? Maybe 123 primer? I've heard good things about that.
Or what about spraying some Bulldog over everything and jumping right to a urethane primer?
Thanks-Scott
[ January 05, 2006, 02:45 AM: Message edited by: Scott Brayshaw ]
Posted by bruce ward (Member # 1289) on :
cal them up tell them your sorry you cannot make this work and you need new materials. if they will not have the decency to accept your proposal , screw it! your going to spend 3 times the labor prepping this and then god knows what happens later when all these materials get a good dose of weather....you have taken on a problem andi can tell you now it aint gonna get no better.
Posted by Ian Stewart-Koster (Member # 3500) on :
Here down under there are UNDERCOATS that can go over or under both waterbased & enamel paints, but they're not PRIMERS. They have to go on top of already sound paint, and then be coated over with a final coat or two of something usually glossy, either enamel or acrylic.
Generally we use them to coat out unknown billboards, walls etc, when you don't know which was used by the former painter, but you're still painting over either one, or the other kind of paint, not a mixture of both at the same time.
To start to put polyurethanes over something like you describe is to ask for trouble as the severe reducers lift & blister the enamel underneath it...maybe you know your products better and know a workaround, but it's like walking on eggs and is readily accident-prone, though possible on occasions.
I still feel you're dealing with expensive materials, on a substance likely to fail you and the job will haunt you- WHY can't they spend a bit more on a new sign- it WILL be cheaper, and a lot less worry.
Or can you cover it up with a new panel?
Posted by Ron Carper (Member # 999) on :
I know the guy who originally made this game. It may be one of my logos you are trying to change. I haven't done any Plinko games in years, but this guy makes them to last until the check clears. cheapest paint, vinyl, clear, he has no idea what he is doing other than trying to make a quick buck. I think he has gotten a little better lately, but if this is an old one, the materials used should be viewed with caution.
Posted by DianeBalch (Member # 1301) on :
I never heard of a plinko sign. Is it like the Japanese slot machines?
Can you post a photo when its done?
ernie
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
Ian, may I reiterate:
"...write into your invoice or bill what you did and that you're not responsible for any complications . . . to establish that you allowed the customer to dictate the service according to their budget rather than your judgement."
Scott, I admit, I'm not too sure what 'plinko' board is, yet I feel sure you're not painting a 4x6ft board game, but I do know that you can scuff sand almost ANY thing well enough to get paint to stick to it. Every thing else which is hardly anything that rejects paint, other than some straight siliconized plastics, you can use S-555, a Dupont automotive mid-coat adhesion promoter if you have any doubts... Uh-oh...now you're gonna haft'a spend a few dollars to 'cover' your obviously ongoing fears and questions. Is it WORTH the pressure??
Now look, do I think you should always, (or even ever), try to go the cheapest route? Of course not.
Do I think you want to use new, quality materials at every opportunity? Yes of course.
Do I think you should make the effort and take the time to explain these things to customers and educate them?? Why yeh. You DID did'nt you??
Do I think quality IS important and that the QUALITY of your work speaks for itself AND ultimately what kind of business (and income) you wanna have?? Absolutely.
Ok. Enough chastizing and fear-inducing warnings.
Yes, the general rule is oil ON latex and NOT visa-versa. That said, My house painter-contractor buddy, who does EXCELLENT work and is half-owner of a large hardware store SWEARS by Zinser's 1-2-3 primer over well-scuff-sanded-oil base paint. He even claims it can be a finish coat. Well, that's going a little far to me . . .
I did use this, over some oil-base painted wooden sign frames, and it's worked out great. I ALWAYS use this primer for bare lumber and ect. I love it. It sands velvety smooth ey?
I always stand by doing something for yourself to the best of your ability, and common sense, and learning on your own what will and what won't work.
Experience is still the best teacher.
Good luck. S.
Posted by Sam Staffan (Member # 4552) on :
Sheila along with others have hit all the bases. If this is some type of a game-board Iam assuming it is not out in the weather and with that many holes the picture I get in my mind is the logo is secondary to the eye. Somtimes a quick change is necessary with their budget.Kilz premium down and new logo on done and overwith for what it is used for no one other than sign artist probably really care what it looks like they just use it for what it is for. Sometimes you have to do the bad to get the good.
Posted by Scott Brayshaw (Member # 4391) on :
Thanks again everyone! Giving me more ideas and options.
Sheila, do you think the Zinser's primer would work better than a urethane primer over the scuffed surface?
Sam, if I went with Kilz would I just follow that up with an oil based basecoat and then apply a vinyl logo right over that?
I'll be sure to post a followup with how it works out. I probably mis-spoke a little too. The budget probably isn't as tight as I made it out to be. I just wanted to figure out a way to do the sign without taking it down to the base again.
Thanks-Scott
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Why get all sick and nervous over a simple 'knock out' low budget job! This is an indoor game board...no weather problems, only wear from the 'puck'.
Sand it, give it a coat of industrial enamel, put on the logo and install the bolts! Collect your money!
[ January 05, 2006, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: Si Allen ]
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
Leave it to Si to say gruffly in one sentence, what I tried to explain with extensive logic.
But now I'm pretty much just'a tad ticked-off babydoll . . .
If their budget is, quote: 'not as tight as you made it out to be',
then here's the real, true logic:
WHY WASTE ALL THIS TIME? HELLO!?? This ridiculous-but-educational, 'experimental' JOB is wasting YOUR MONEY.. ie: YOUR LABOR INCOME dealing with this WHOLE mess.
Why NOT replace the entire deal with a BRAND NEW substrate that all you have do to it is letter it?? NO worries. HUH?? WHY NOT??
Yeh, yeh, yeh... you will spend some money for the new substrate, but the TIME you save not fooling with all this, and all this doubt and frettin', and sandin' and waiting for paint to dry, and wonderin' and blah, blah, blah . . .all that time can be spent MAKIN" ANOTHER SIGN FOR MORE DIFFERENT NEW MONEY.
Now, *ahem* Ala-Si: WORK SMARTER - NOT HARDER!
*
*
*sigh*
My word, but how I hate fussin' and gettin' all bent-out'a-shape . . . .
Now look, you can still sand the thing and paint it when you got a little down time, and set it out there by your shop, and watch it, and learn how your procedure will work, and it'll be ready to sell to that poor-mouthin'-no-account-schmuck who has no bearing on your business reputation, and you can STILL make a buck off'a him . . . Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
All the advise above is based on personal experience. In other words, we have all found ourselves in Scott's position.
In a perfect World, we would all have the wisdom and self confidence to refuse jobs like this. Most of us can smell trouble from the word go, but let's be honest. We need the money! If you are the sole breadwinner of a large family with hungry mouths to feed, you know exactly what I am talking about.
Scott comes to us for help. In the longterm, the advise is good. If we don't change our business practises, we will constantly find ourselves caught between a rock and a hard place.
That's good advise for the future, but right now Scott needs our help, not a scolding. Let's help him get this repaint out of the way and worry about what should have been done on the next job.
Letterville needs to work at improving our image this year. We have to become a kinder Community. There are a core of longtime users that have had an opportunity to form strong personal relationships via live meets and 10 years of hanging out on this website. I personally feel we may inadvertantly treating new people in a less than tolerant way. Think back to your first days and choose your words with that in mind.
End of my scolding. Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
?
Posted by Jason Davie (Member # 2172) on :
Scott,
About a year ago I had a repaint job on a 14ft x 36ft Roadside Billboard.. There wasnt enough money in it to replace the panels..Before I got to them they were already They were Painted with oil based paint.. Then Lettered.. Then painted with latex and Vinyl Lettered..
I asked lots of questions to everyone I could.. Paint reps, Lumber Yards and Here.. The concencus was to run run run or posibly paint over it with oil based paint once again..
So I cleaned it real well, and coated it with Benjamin Moore Oil Based Exterior Paint 2 Coats and Lettered it.
I drove by it today to look at it before I posted here.. It still looks like the day I did it.. now i'm not saying it looks new but it looks good for what it is..
If I had it too do all over again I would have somehow worked new panels into the job.. only because I DO NOT like to cut corners like this.. for now this job has worked out for me. but for all the worrying about it I did It would have been better to do it right..
But Oil Based Benjamin Moore Alkid Paint did work and this was an exterior job..
hope it helps
Jason D
Posted by Scott Brayshaw (Member # 4391) on :
Thanks Jason-
That's good to hear. This won't be outdoors much if at all so the weather isn't an issue. I'd replace panels if I could but that would require additional woodworking and quite a bit of time. I'm not really worried about things. The project is in the shop and the client knows I won't be able to get to it right away. Posting here has given me a number of options and I think industrial enamel is the way I'll go. It was good to hear that your project worked out well. I hope I have similar luck and know now to get ALL the details before getting this far into a job. This board has been a great resource. Thanks again to everyone.
-Scott
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Your right, Steve. Some of of have bad days and it shows.
Scott, Sorry about the intitial post.
Not trying to be a wiseguy this time, but in your first post you mentioned a solution...sanding it down to the original surface and repainting it. Even if the customer may not have it "in the budget", it may be the best solution in this case...for no other reason that you KNOW it will work and thus reduce the chance of it failing or having problems later. Maybe explaining it to them in that fashion might inspire them to cough up a few more dollars for a job done RIGHT and not a just a job done.
...and welcome to Letterville. Rapid
Posted by Bill Diaz (Member # 2549) on :
You're probably already done with the job, but I think you would be able to scuff and paint over the sign with 1 Shot provided the vinyl wasn't lifting and all other paints and clears were cured out.
It is a shame the company couldn't spring for a new sign, though. They should be punished somehow. You could send them a bill that was twice the amount of a brand new sign and explain to them that the price increase was actually a "reputation surcharge." The surcharge was due to the fact that they were asking you to tarnish your reputation by embarking on a risky procedure.
Is that some wild a** advice or what?
Posted by Sam Staffan (Member # 4552) on :
Just think Scott, when you get done with this one you will really be able to stand behind that web name. good luck
Posted by Scott Brayshaw (Member # 4391) on :
Thanks guy. Yeah, Sam, I tend to get the jobs that nobody else will touch. That should probably tell me something about the stuff coming in. To this point, the name has served me well and the interesting/pain-in-the-@$$ jobs keep coming in. I like the odd stuff so I'm willing to do a bit of research and experimentation. Keeps things lively, that's for sure.
Thanks-Scott
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
I apologize if my last post caused any hard feelings. It was not intended to single out any one person or their comments.
It's important to remember that Barb and I ran a shop together for 25 years. There are many times I see things we did wrong discussed on this Board. When we discovered Letterheads and attended our first meet, I felt very insecure to be rubbing shoulders with my heros.
I'll never forget my first look at the Portfolio Table. Seeing everyones work made me realize that I wasn't the hotshot I thought I was. I was so embaressed that I removed my own portfolio and stashed it in our hotel room. Talk about being depressed. I felt lower than whale poop.
That night we were adopted by Mark and Jeannie Klein of AM Design in Miami. That may not mean much to many of you, but back in those days, being asked out to supper by Mark and Jeannie was in the same ballpark as sharing dinner with Mike Lavallee or whoever your personal hero is.
Later on, back at the hotel, Barb brought up the portfolio story and we discussed some of my insecurities. Mark demanded to see my Portfolio and Barb promptly ran to retrieve it.
To make a long story short, Mark examined my work. He will never realize the power his words had at that point. He could have literally destroyed my dream of owning my own business as a sign painter. I'm pretty certain none of you ever experience any feelings of insecurity, but I have to confess that I do. Still do.
Mark and Jeannie pointed out what was best about my work and encourged me to keep climbing the ladder. I'll never forget him telling me that I had a job at AM Design anytime I wanted. His words set me on fire! I couldn't wait to get home with all I had learned.
Jeannie died of a brain aneurysm a few years later and things sort of turned sour in Mark's life. I'm not sure where he is right now, but we will never forget what they did for me.
I think about that night often as I watch you guys interact. Words have great power. They can motivate, or in some cases destroy.
We sometimes hear about people on other websites that have had a bad experience here in Letterville. Some may say "Too bad. Their loss!" or something along that line. After my experience with the Kleins, I have a hard time agreeing with that. We hope that every new person that drops by Letterville is given the same gift Mark and Jeannie gave me.
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
*sniff* Gee Steve, that was great.
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
Might not work, but what about:
Lay 'sign' on very level surface, POUR on a gallon (or two ) of stripper, let set for a lo-o-o-o-ng time,, hose off? Wire brush around bolts while 'stuff' is still soft.
Twisted minds like to watch paint get all wrinkly
We need a psycho emoticon. And maybe a 'showboat' one (isn't that what they call it when a boxer shuffles around the ring with his gloves in the air after winning?) Like "Hey, I had the wierdest idea, I win! I win!
Posted by Bill Diaz (Member # 2549) on :
Steve, that was a nice story. I have always felt that the best way to get better is to take a hard look at yourself and examine the good and bad things you've done. There's no shame in honesty.
I think you continue to get better as an artisan if you can always find some fault in what you've done. If when a project is done and you can spot some area where improvement can be made, then you have a chance to make your work better. It's a simple process of leaving the bad behind and carrying the good forward.
When it comes time that you can't find one thing that can be improved upon, then you have reached your pinnacle. Being involved with letterheads and attending meets is the first step to insure that you will always be able to improve. Improvement is the key to your success. With letterhead involvement, you will always run across somebody who is better, faster or smarter than you. Inspiration allows you to attain higher goals for yourself, because if somebody else can do something you can't do and want to be able to do, you can pick that person's brain and try to close the gap.
In some cases you will never be as good as someone else -- it can be a humbling experience, because you may want it in the worse way. At least knowing you were a part of it all, I think, gives you a barometer for a perspective on your own successes and failures.
Often times on this board, people belittle others and their questions. It may not be intentional, but I think little positive comes from it. More humor is needed to make us feel better about some of the problems we all share. If sarcasm is your way, and you don't really want to be mean about it, you need to say, "I'm just kidding."
Have a good weekend, everybody!
Posted by Jeff Ogden (Member # 3184) on :
I would sand smooth with 400 grit, prime with an oil base bonding primer, then paint with oil base polyurethane. Poly is harder than OS, and with something sliding around on the surface you want to avoid scratches (think gym floor finishes). Or you could use OS then clear poly over it.
Also, I would think the automotive route would be OK for this. Being inside and out of UV exposure and temp variations, I don't think adhesion would be as much to worry about as the hardness of the final coat.
Well there's my 2 cents...
Posted by Scott Brayshaw (Member # 4391) on :
Rookie here ... what is OS?
Thanks-Scott
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
1Shot lettering enamel!
Posted by Scott Brayshaw (Member # 4391) on :
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Bash]](graemlins/bash.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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![[I Don t Know]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
) of stripper, let set for a lo-o-o-o-ng time,, hose off? Wire brush around bolts while 'stuff' is still soft.![[Cool]](cool.gif)