After reading Rays post just now, and feeling every word he had typed, it occured to me that loyal customers are getting harder and harder to come by. I just got back from lettering a truck and the customer told me he would always use me to do his work. Y'know, Id like to believe that, but odds are they'll come a time when he doesnt like my price anymore, and one of the local lowballers will get er' done for him. I saw two vehicles today from companies I usually do work for, and both had been lettered by people that dont know what they are doing. They tried to copy my layout and didnt have the same fonts I used, and the kerning was horrible. Odds are the vehicle owners got it done much cheaper and decided to go that way. These two especially, I always took them in and got their vehicles done quickly. But what do you do? I have seven people here now that own plotters and do signs. Most from their homes. They have no overhead to speak of, and dont care if they lose money apparently. I know I offer more than they do in the way of signage, but apparently its meaning less and less to the business owners. Damn em though. I aint leaving. Ill just get some new customers to take the place of these. Skill has to mean something to somebody. (edited cause I spelled loyal wrong.)
[ September 20, 2005, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: John Deaton ]
Posted by Barry Branscum (Member # 445) on :
Well said John!
I am right there with you. It has never made sense to me when a guy with a 100K brand new big truck will take it somewhere else for 50 bucks (or less) in cash savings.
Not bragging, but the two or three guys around here that "cut letters" LOL can't touch the quality we offer. can't come close.
It does make you disgusted doesn't it?
Keep hammerin' D3. And to Ray and others who are in the same trench....hang in there! Where there is a will there is a way.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
i been at this full time since 86, in sarasota for 19 years after that and moved here in 98 WITH NO CUSTOMERS!!!! in those 19 years i had a good "loyal" client base. and not many defectors in that time. when i moved i SOLD my client list to a SIGNS BY TOMARROW franchise owner for $1000, told him to mail the check to pcola addy....IT NEVER SHOWED UP!!!! i called him to ask for my money and he said the list WASNT WORTH $1000!!!!! BUT HE HAD IT FOR FREE!!! karma will have its way.....and i learned a lesson...SHOULDA GOT THE CHECK WHEN I HANDED HIM THE LIST....back to here. in 98 i opened a store front shop, did good for 18 months and then couldnt make the rent!!!!! closed it moved to the house, called most of the people i had done signs for at the shop, and kept most of them. the 1st year at the house sucked big time, as this is a small town mentality and people here are "LOYAL" to most who do work for them. in sarasota i had 4-5 tow truck companies....her i got ZIP...cause of "loyalty" to their sign person. since 2000 ive been home based/mobile sign shop and its gotten better and i keep the people i do work for....really. some of you will scoff at doing little league signs for almost nothing, but the return in just having an opportunity to speak to some of the businesses that PAY TO SUPPORT the little league, is alot better then making cold calls to these people and many that i do their little league sign for are now my "loyal" customers.... i did a vehicle for a our search & rescue, they also said the hada stepvan for sale, which i bought in 2001 and have been doing all their lettering since. i do a mag for someone just starting out and year or 2 iam doin their van, storefront etc. myself i like people, and i sorta pick and choose the ones i really get along well with and keep them happy and they tell their freinds.....this is how you keep loyal customers...
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
John - you will always be in demand to those who know and want quality....
Do what you love....as long as you can pay your bills and keep your family housed and fed....you're doing better than 2/3rds of the rest of this world....hang in there guy.
Edit: just wanted to add that my brother-in-law works for GM.....good paying job, doesn't require any education but has good benies, etc.
Guess what? He's been working there since he was 18 and is 47 now....he is counting down the few months he has left to get his 30 years in so he can retire.
He has told me countless times over the years that he DREADS every day he has to go into that place...he hates his job....and can't wait to get out....
His tradeoff? Decent pay for a job he has hated for years.
Imagine working a quarter or more of your life away doing something that is uninteresting, uninspiring, and basically doing it for the money ONLY.
What a waste of life....
I am lucky to work at something that I love doing by-and-large.....and feel blessed. You wouldn't want to look back over your life and say, "Man...I wasted the last 30 years of my life spending time doing something that had no joy in it."
While I'm at it - - we should all take a moment, whether male or female, and thank our spouses for their support...and their willingness to tough it out in many ways or work to provide benefits....
[ September 20, 2005, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
quote:Originally posted by Todd Gill: While I'm at it - - we should all take a moment, whether male or female, and thank our spouses for their support...and their willingness to tough it out in many ways or work to provide benefits....
Amen! Posted by Jill Marie Welsh (Member # 1912) on :
Now THAT's an oxymoron! No such thing as a loyal customer. Sad but true. Love....Jill
Posted by Ricky Jackson (Member # 5082) on :
OP, why don't you write Signs by Tamale (send it certified, return receipt requested) and tell them you want your list back, that Signs Now is willing to pay you the thousand bux for it. Tell them you are going to send out letters of reccommendation to all of the customers on that list and to please not do business with Signs by Tamale. You might want to call the Signs Now store there and chat with them about that beforehand. Just an idea.
Posted by Patrick Whatley (Member # 2008) on :
quote:Originally posted by Barry Branscum: I am right there with you. It has never made sense to me when a guy with a 100K brand new big truck will take it somewhere else for 50 bucks (or less) in cash savings.
Tell me about it. We've been doing lettering for a local guy for every dump truck, semi, bulldozer and pickup he's gotten in the last ten years. He came by two weeks ago to show off the receipt where he'd just bought 4 new Western Star dump trucks at $130,000 each. Then wanted to know if I'd match the $50 per truck quote he'd gotten for lettering, that was with the quantity discount. It's almost criminal what somebody put on those nice pretty new trucks.
[ September 20, 2005, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: Patrick Whatley ]
Posted by Mark Stokes (Member # 5351) on :
John there are no freinds in business, you do great work you will get work by talent alone. Let the people that you have done work for go somewhere else they will eventually come back.
Posted by John Deaton (Member # 925) on :
Just wanted to say, one of the vehicles I saw go by was a van for a local heating and cooling company. Well, I was by their shop today and saw the reason for them getting someone else to letter their new van. They have a signshop in their heating and cooling shop. Thats a new one on me. Hot Damn! Heat Pumps and Vinyl lettering. It cant get no dang better than that. Posted by Barry Branscum (Member # 445) on :
I got one of them!!! Mine is an upholstery/Sign shop. I guess they put vinyl on your...vinyl?
what's next? Roofing/Dentistry?
Chuckle yuk laff. Actually, it ain't funny.
Posted by Bruce & Deb Newton (Member # 2312) on :
Spot Welder Manufacturer and Vinyl Lettering! (the Boss's wife's new job - hard to compete with that)
I feel for ya, been there done that.
How about creating a special niche for your cartoons? Magazines, local papers, others without talent, etc. Your toons are great.
Posted by Don Coplen (Member # 127) on :
So far as that goes, I think you'd be one helluva editorial cartoonist.
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
I'm gonna throw my two cents in as far as the truckers go and why they will put up with cheap lettering. I used to stripe and do mini graphics on hundreds of 18 wheelers a year. Very few of them spent the money to get them lettered by me. There were, maybe still are, a few shops over in West Memphis that specialized in vinyl truck lettering. They would letter one for 1/4 of what I charged. These vinyl shops also did graphics. I asked a number of truckers why they wouldn't have me letter the trucks, heck, I had a plotter. The price was the reason. I also asked them why they didn't get the vinyl shops to do the graphics. They all said they didn't like the looks. What that told me is these people could see a difference in the graphics but when it came to the lettering they couldn't. I've never been one to blow my own horn, but in this case my lettering, vinyl or paint, looked waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than what the vinyl shops were doing. I always cringed when I saw a truck I did the graphics on lettered by one of those other shops. They would try to match the colors I used and usually got pretty close but almost ALWAYS got the colors backwards. Like if I did a black truck in magenta/process blue/purple, they would do the lettering in the purple with a magenta outline or do the lettering in process blue with a magenta outline. Most times it was totally unreadable from more than a few feet away, yet the truckers just couldn't see the difference. Jeez all those years and all that time reading and re-reading Mike Stevens book
I'm totally convinced you can educate some folks but the effort is wasted on most. I'm too old to deal with frustration anymore.
Posted by Dawud Shaheed (Member # 5719) on :
Lets face it, Most of the Design and layout in our work is tweaked FOR US! Until WE like it. The customer has little say most of the time in what their sign looks like, I know, But Here's my thing, I'm not too good to do a simple sign, I mean, If they want cheap and easy , they get cheap and easy, If they want to pay for Top quality, THEY GET TOP QUALITY, simple as that, If you go to a car lot , they have brand new 2006's and Used 1996's with high miles on the same lot, Why? Because they understand that different customers have different needs. I usually figure out whether my customer is a lowballer or not, and once I determine that he is a lowballer, I offer him a no frills simple sign with a comparable price to others. Why not? I'm in business and I do signs. If they don't want to pay for a cadillac, I might have a used Totota for sale too! I don't hate those quicky sticky guys, they have their place too, Their families gotta eat, right? Theres plenty of money out there, and we'll only get what's written for us anyway, No reason to get all frayed over it.
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Tater,
After pullng in over 130 awards, I have at least 17 fomer customers in the racing industry alone, many who often stated that I would always do their cars, who now own vinyl cutters. Just a few weeks ago, one who often told me I was "da best" called asking if I would come down to his auto repair shop and teach him how to run his Roland better. Told him it owuld cost him a $200/hr for 2 days...twice what he paid for the machine.
Other examples that spring to mind... Tree service/Signs Radio station general manager/ Signs Construction worker/Signs Press operator/Signs 2 Chassis fabricators/Signs Each one of those is within a half hour drive of here. All but one are former customers. all do vinyl only.
Apart from this list is a 20 year veteran in the sign business who moved up here from Connecticut 4 years ago. He stopped in introduced himself here sortly after coming to town and we have always had a mutual respect of each other's abilities and goals. That day he asked me what I felt would be the best advice for him in this area. I reaclled the words of a now retired sign maker here when I first started..."If you wan to make a money up this way, you'd better be willing to travel. He now works at a full time job and does signs as a part time business, just 2 years after coming to town. He and I chatted briefly earlier tonight. Upon learning I was dropping the sign shop, he gave me advice..."Get a full time joba nad take in the gravy jobs when you can in your spare time."
When I first started out, there were several sign shops that all had there "areas" and even being the new kid on the block, there was always a respect. I was welcomed in to the sign business and informed that it would be good for all and healthy for business to keep on the same page as everyone else was. Today, most of those guys have retired and they have been replaced by people who not only are on a different page, but have an entirely different book.
Rapid
[ September 21, 2005, 03:49 AM: Message edited by: Ray Rheaume ]
Posted by John Deaton (Member # 925) on :
Lotta wisdom in your words Ray. Tis all true...
Posted by Randy Campbell (Member # 2675) on :
Ray we met in Quebec and I'm sorry your customers are screwing you but just because someone chooses to have another job as well doesn't mean he is a lowballer.I work for the school board and have my sign shop at home.I haven't done a sign in 3 months because I refused to work for nothing.Got a call two weeks ago for a price on a 3/4"-4'x8'good two sides.He insisted on a price over the phone so I told him $450.00 and he bocked.Told him to find someone else (goodbye)and hung up.Now i'm taking an air brush coarse to better myself and do a little pin striping.Sign people aren't the only trade to get under-cut on price.Good luck in the future your a great person and painter.Randy Posted by Don Coplen (Member # 127) on :
I don't think that's what Ray meant, Randy. All signmakers who work from home aren't lowballers, but it seems most lowballers work from home.
Posted by Ken Henry (Member # 598) on :
Loyalty of any kind just isn't a concept that's taught in schools, these days. I have an adult daughter who took a Graphic Arts course at a College in Toronto. Upon graduation, she bounced from job to job, always taking one at a higher level. I became concerned and asked her why she was so frequently changing jobs. She told me that it was what she had been counselled to do in college. I expressed my concern that her actions didn't seem to project any sense of loyalty toward her employers.
She replied that employers are looking to hire those with the most experience, and they don't care how you got it. She also pointed out that employers also have no sense of loyalty toward their employees, as shown by the numbers of good, loyal workers who found themselves out of work after companys "downsized" or were swallowed up by bigger corporations.
I'm afraid that mindset has impermeated society as a whole, and loyalty has become but another quaint, but outmoded ideal. Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
"All signmakers who work from home aren't lowballers, but it seems most lowballers work from home." NICE..... well iam gona make sombody mad....i WORK FROM HOME...and probably been at this longer then most of the people who look down their nose at us who work from home. been at this full time since 86 and painted signs since i was in my teens....and outa all those years ...ive NEVER WORKED FOR A SIGN SHOP and i only had a store front for 20 MONTHS!!!!! so its really a choice i made...and ill stay at home now that i got a building here that i SPEND ALL THAT RENT MONEY ON!!!!!OH AND IAM GONA LOWBALL THE CRAP OUTA ALL MY COMPETITORS!!!! yea right, SUCH A DEAL I GOT FOR YOU.......hehehehehehehee
Posted by Don Coplen (Member # 127) on :
quote:Originally posted by old paint: "All signmakers who work from home aren't lowballers, but it seems most lowballers work from home." NICE.....
Read it again, OP. Slowly, this time. Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
I don't know Jilly . . . I can honestly say that I had some very loyal customers who stuck with me during the 3 months after my Mom's death, and the nearly 9 months after my dad's death, when I was producing virtually nothing.
I even had a few customers send me what we call 'Love offerings'!! What a blessing!
Even after I encouraged them to go ahead elsewhere a lot of them did'nt, and the one's who did have to get stuff done during those times, came back when I got going again. I even heard a few times: "They were cheaper, but I don't like their work or the ways they do business, ect, as much as yours."
VERY humbling and makes you very cognizant of striving to be the best you can be . . .
I can honestly say that when I find a business that meets my exact needs I'd say they are loyal to me, dependable, honest . . . and I am loyal to them.
Now the question might be . . . are WE loyal to OUR customers????
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
i wish i had the time to back and look thru the old letterville posts of 5-10 years ago. i was in south fla when the vinyl cutter came into play. i posted here many times(as a lot of us did from florida)in the mid 90's on how bad it was getting with lowballers, workin from their houses/businesses and making a good paying profession basically worthless!!! i also remember all the people who had this wonderful "tude" that you make the business what it is and not to surcome to these lowballers, and keep on doin what you do best. wellllllll that was 95-97 for us here, now its in younze backyard.....and from what i can see from my years at this....IT AINT GONA STOP GETTIN CHEAPER CHEAPER as more and more got $500 cutters hooked up to there $200 computers and workin another job and ONLY TAKIN THE GRAVY SIGN JOBS!!!!! how long before there is no "gravy"? thats the question ya all need to be axin! me i got a lot of other things i do well besides vinyl signs. in all my 60 years i have never been "without some source of income" from my skills or talents(legal or illegal)....ONLY WHEN I DIDNT WANT TO WORK!!!! i hate to say this but if you go back and read these posts, the south and west coast was getting the brunt of this then....its just movin east and north now......i will tell ya this, as some one whos been there did that....just dont get your undies in bundle, do what you do best, either from home or storefront, if you are fair and dont expect to make a fortune....you will live.....iam doin good for all the crap "lowballers" i got here, most are short lived and wind up at JIFFY LUBE and still got there cutters and doin stuff for free and wonderin why they are still at jiffy lube!
Posted by Bobbie Rochow (Member # 3341) on :
Very interesting comments, OP. I am trying to get betetr at paitning & airbrushing so I can do more than just the vinyl. I was painting pictures before i did signs, but bought the plotter after realizing with all the sign requests I had to do, i wasn't real good with a brush & needed to get one to keep up.
My husband & I just got back from a nearby "Bike Nite", & this kid was striping bikes. He was young, & doing a pretty decent job at it. He was really warm & friendly, too, which surprised me. Here, he isn't far away, i think i may drop in on him sometime.
My typing is bad, my hands are froze, &I am not fixing my typ-os, sorry!
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