We're facing one of the same things that everybody else is dealing with these days, "competing" with companies selling on the net. I've had to deal with my customers coming in or calling to see if I will match prices they've found on the internet. That made me so mad I wanted to throw them out. I composed myself, smiled thru my gritted teeth and told them the benefits of buying local and the "what if's" of buying online. I can give them touch and feel service, with samples, one day service or while you wait service in some cases, valuable consultation and advice, good design services, lots of in house equipment, and a handsome salesman (grin). If something goes wrong, we can fix it immediately, if not sooner. I can do go see's and site evals; I can measure and do a lot of things that add value to their buying experience but they don't get any of that on the net; all they get are cheap prices and they want me to provide everything I can give and match the cheap prices. Yeah, I'm ranting here. I'm not saying that people selling on the net are unscrupulous at all; they just can't give our customers what we, local sign shops, can. If you removed all the benefits and most of the overhead, we could all do cheaper signs and we wouldn't have to deal with morons... I mean "customers".
Anyone care to chime in with some other benefits to buying local? I know this is a problem for everyone here.
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
That's why we sell design images rather than signs.
Tell us again how great those franchise shops are, Ricky. (For the rest of you....this is done with a grin on my face and a slight jab in Ricky's ribs - we are friends and this is in no way meant to be a slap in the face. OK - politically correct statement finished)
He makes a lot more money than me, so he must be doing something right.
[ September 14, 2005, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: Raymond Chapman ]
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
Sorta different, but same line of thinking.
A few weeks ago my husband bought an overgrown lawn tractor or small farm tractor, depends on what you want to call it. He talked to some guy who told him he saved thousands of dollars by buying his out of state. I explained when you buy out of state, where do you go for service? or parts? In a couple years, you'll be bitching that you have to order parts for it because there is no longer a local dealer because everyone looked at only the price, not the value. Was the out of state dealer going to come to the house to do the paperwork? Was he going to deliver it and pick up the trade-in? No, instead he'd be making at the very minimum 2 trips out of state, taking up a lot of time and having to buy or rent a trailer to bring it home.
Some things are great to buy online or order mail-order. Some things shouldn't be.
Posted by Kimberly Zanetti (Member # 2546) on :
You get what you pay for. Period. It's like comparing a McDonald's hockey puck in a bag to a nice meal. Some people couldn't care less what they feed themselves and the same goes for their signs. Ask them - do you go to Macy's and ask them to price match a cashmere sweater with some nylon junk you bought at Kmart? Do you go to UCLA and tell them that you can get a degree online for $499?
If they thought the internet price was so great, let them buy it on the internet. You want these people for customers?
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Ricky, I love ya...... but...
When a Franchise starts complaining about an entrepreneur offering lower prices..... I'm sorry but that gives me the giggles.
.
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
I like buying local when I can and usually will exhaust every last resource trying to find everything I need.
However, if the locals I have to deal with have the personality of an iguana or no personality at all, or they just appear incompetant or questionable in any way, I go elsewhere.
That being said..
I rely on out-of-state sales because the people in my area sure as hell can't afford what I'm selling. I do my best to make potential customers feel confident in my abilities, ease their concerns and make them comfortable about using a relatively little-known online company with a funny name , and assure them I will do what I can to help them out. I even use the Letterhead database here to find shops that are local to my customers in case they do not feel comfortable applying their graphics themselves. I don't know if any of them use the shops I recommend but I think it says a lot about a company that takes the time to find those contacts.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Ricky,
I got your IM.
Since my comment was made publicly, I hope you want mind if I clarify it publicly.
I understood completely.
My comment was in reference to ....
quote:We're facing one of the same things that everybody else is dealing with these days, "competing" with companies selling on the net. I've had to deal with my customers coming in or calling to see if I will match prices they've found on the internet. That made me so mad I wanted to throw them out.
I think the confusion may be that you see your franchise as a "local" business. I don't. Not when a portion of your profit has to be sent to a home office in another town or state. Its no different than if I go to Walmart vs. a mom'n'pop store.
Nearly 70% of my business is from out-of-town and out-of-state. If I had to rely solely on locals, I'd be out of business within a month. One reason is because when the franchise shops appeared in my town, the first thing they did was to undercut prices. I know for a fact that the local SignsNow had a standing order when it first opened up that any price I gave they would undercut it by 10% regardless.
Ten years ago, I could easily get $125 for a 3x8 banner. Today, thanks to the price wars between the franchise shops in my town, the going price is $50.
So, if a franchisee wants to complain about what some guy on the internet is charging, I'm sorry but the irony gives me the giggles.
Please don't misunderstand. I have absolutely nothing personal against you. I mean that in all sincerity. The fact is that in many ways I owe the franchise shops a debt of gratitude because I was forced to rethink how I do business and on what my focus should be.
So, what's the answer? For me its... "Work smarter and don't worry about the other guy. Let him worry about me."
.
Posted by Rovelle W. Gratz (Member # 4404) on :
Ricky, I agree with you about buying local.....that's why I buy all my hand wrote vinyl signs from Furd Berfull's Vinyl Signs and Cesspool Service.
Besides, you're way on the other side of town.
Just kidding.
Posted by Sonny Franks (Member # 588) on :
I just lost a potential sale because the customer found a cheaper price on the internet. I tried to explain that it was impossible to tell if she was comparing apples to apples because all the specs were not listed on the web site, but apparently, the ONLY THING she could see was the price. I quoted $85 per square foot and the internet guy was $80.
I imagine she's saying some nasty things about me because I got uncharacteristically p***ed and lit into her. Not good for kharma, but I enjoyed showing her the door..... Posted by ROLAND PINAN (Member # 2724) on :
That what I'm talking about Sonny.The best thing to do is to try and educate your customers about the difference between many years experience and the BS layouts they are going to get somwhere else.A former regular banner customer of mine recently asked me to letter a wall,I suggested they call thier existing sign and banner provider. Of course they could't do the job,so guess what I can do to the price of a job others are not capable of providing.A man of your talents and skills can do what ever you want. I don't get to many sign jobs any more but I charge like hell for the ones I get. Work less make more ,sounds like a plan to me.
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
$80... $85..
I wouldn't get too miffed about that one Sonny. It's only a 6% difference which I think is totally acceptible as far as price differences between shops go.
When it comes to splitting hairs like that it's all on the customer. Gotta wonder what the shipping cost on that job came to though.
I think the days of "I got it cheaper over the internet" are coming to a head. Online business owners are finally realizing the online market is HUGE. There's tons of people buying but the competition is stiff. It's hard to stand out amongst the crowd. It's downright TOUGH to get consistent sales and banking on lower prices to bring higher volume just does NOT pan out for most.
Posted by Steve Luck (Member # 5292) on :
I have to tell you about my customer. He has been very loyal to me and has brought me all of his trucks to letter for the past 5 years. He bought a mini bus with several other business owners to ride to the Rams football games. They are all season ticket holders and are carpooling. He asked me to letter the bus with Rams logos which he aquired legal permission, etc. So the funny part is....
He found a cute saying on the internet in vinyl lettering: "If you drive it, they will come." It was calendered white vinyl, 16" wide by 6" tall in two lines. The font was Dom casual. They charged him $35.50 plus $7.69 for shipping!! A total of $43.19 for cheap vinyl. He asked me to install it on the rear of the bus. Why didn't he ask me to make it? I would probably only charged him $15 to $20. and used high performance AND installed it. He probably thought he got a good deal because it was on the internet. Go figure.
I still don't understand my customers. I do try to educate them about quality, service, design, and all the things discussed here but you gotta scratch you head sometimes and wonder! The bus looked cool by the way. Sign-cerely, Steve
Posted by Peter Schuttinga (Member # 2821) on :
Kissy is right-on
"...because everyone looked at only the price, not the value"
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
You know I hear the phrase "educate the customer" a lot, sounds good til you realise a lot of folks drop out of school Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Had a guy walk in this summer looking for an eagle design to be airbrushed on his Harley...
I pretty much figured he was a waste of time when he said he'd seen the design he liked for 8 bucks on Ebay.
Rapid
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Yep. George, you are exactly right. And sadly, we need to avoid becoming drop outs as well.
I'm gonna take a swing at this. Hopefully I won't **** anyone off for getting longwinded and preachy.
So first, let me apologize if any of my previous posts on this thread have offended anyone. It wasn't my intention. I just have a warped sense of humor and see irony in a lot of things. Unfortunately, I haven't learned how to keep from getting into trouble when I point them out.
Ok...onto the longwindedness.....(deep breath)....
I have bad news for everyone. Its going to only get worse. We can tell ourselves about the need for folks to understand value and about how important it is to buy locally. It feels good to say such things. Unfortunately, IMHO (which has about as much value as an Iraqi Dinar), unless we learn to work smarter and provide better service at a competitive price, with the exception of a very few, we are going to do nothing but continue to struggle, gripe and moan.
Yes, its important to stress "value".
Yes, its important to stress the need to buy "locally".
Unfortunately, not everyone is as intelligent as you and I are.
I wonder how many here have bought a TV from Walmart, Kmart, Rex, Circuit City. Why didn't you buy from a local independent?
I wonder how many here bought their latest car/truck/suv/moped/tricycle simply because you liked it, it was what you wanted and you shopped around for the best deal. Not because someone was simply "local".
C'mon now. Be honest. Remember, Christmas will be here soon and Santa is watching you.
Independent shops gripe about the franchise shops. Franchise shops gripe about the internet shops. It won't be long before the internet shops gripe about the Chinese who are headed over here (Canada included) to open up sign shops and undercut us all.
Yes. The customer needs to be educated.
So do we.
We need to develop better business skills. We need to learn how to adapt. We need to learn not to take things so personally when a customer shops price. If we are to be honest, then we have to admit that we've done the same thing. That we're just as guilty.
Am I wrong here? Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
No, Glenn, you aren't. Not to me you aren't.
I quoted a job last year for a woman who opened up a very upscale tea room. You know the kind... $2.50 for a cup and $3.00 more for a scone or muffin.
I quoted her for a 3'x4' D/S A-frame and a pair of 12"x36" magnetics. She told me she could get them on the internet for over half my price less. I told her I would give her better design, better materials, and better serice. She still held on the idea that could get the "same" job done for less than half the price.
I told maybe she could and that I can get a cup of tea at Denny's for 89 cents, too...
The point was lost on her.
Posted by Bill Lynch (Member # 3815) on :
No Glenn, you're not wrong. To bring it to a business level, how many sign people shop price on sign supplies? Office supplies? Sign equipment? Substrates? Computers? Yes, we are selling more than a commodity, and those items are more commodity based, but still the service you get from a local supplier is better (or should be) and you are supporting local economies when you buy from them. Some of the signs we sell are sold on design, quality and service. Others on price, and they get a good design anyhow.
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
What a great thread! Chris, Glenn...you guys are right on!
I bought a truck from the local Ford dealer last week. I didn't even shop anywhere else. Why? Cause he calls me for everything. Sometimes he asks price, sometimes not. The point is that loyalty means alot to me even tho it is a dying thing.
When we give up loyalty and integrity, we might as well go to the Walmart cafeteria and have dinner cause thats all that will be open.
Posted by Steve Eisenreich (Member # 1444) on :
I think Glens last post hit it on the head do not take business "personally" period.
You will always find people that have their own way and nothing you do will change their minds even if you are right. Come on we have all meet someone that would argue to the death even when they where wrong heck very few people can stop arguing long enough to even here your side.
I do think you guys should be able to match the internet price just take the customers specifications: color, size, font style, and quantity and tell them to pick them up in a week or would they like them shipped and would they like to place their order online with your internet store front. lol If they want more just charge them more.
I think it is wrong to think customers are loyal or should be loyal it is not like they are your family. They have the choice to do what they want and some of you call it shopping around well we are all conditioned to do just that we have TV, newspapers, Flyers, etc all advertising the lowest price. I personally like to pay what I beleive the fair price is for a produce and sometimes that requires that I shop around to find out what things should cost I do not have a ton of money falling from my pockets and I am sure your customers are the same. Give your customer what he/she wants or it will not be long before YOUR customer is someone elses customer.
Posted by Ricky Jackson (Member # 5082) on :
Glenn, I didn't think about the Chinese!! Word is that in Atlanta, the Chinese are doing signs for about 1/3 of the market rate. That's barely over materials cost in most cases. There are a LOT of shops closing up there and a lot of good people losing their livelihood.
My purpose in starting this thread was to encourage dialog to sort of brainstorm with other heds about this issue and there certainly have been some good points here. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him fish (my version). But still, it's not over til the flatulent lady sings (mine too).
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Ricky,
Its the difference in labor costs. Chinese prisoners work cheap. Reeeal cheap. Posted by Dana Blair (Member # 951) on :
"You know I hear the phrase "educate the customer" a lot, sounds good til you realise a lot of folks drop out of school."
That's true George. The other thing to remember along this line is that to educate the customer, they have to want to be educated. That's usually the downfall to whole situation right there.
Posted by Frank Magoo (Member # 3950) on :
Customers...loyalty... Posted by Hugh Potter (Member # 5748) on :
when i first bought my cutter, it was for my own use on the race car, and friends cars, and maybe i guess to sell within my club etc, when i was made redundant from my full time job i negan putting stuff on ebay, reasonable but not give-away prices, and i always made sure to do stickers / ecals that others were not doing, even making up my own slogans for particular makes etc, it started off ok, but i soon found that every time i found something that sold relatively well, for say around $20 for a set of one colour land rover decals (about 2ft sq), that it didnt take long for other sellers to catch on and start selling the same thing for half the price, for a while i just kept changing what i was selling, figuring that for the sake of making a few $ that they were welcome to it,
when i moved into making proper vinyl signs and livery, i soon found out that there was proper money to be made, maybe less turnover but far better profit, and less hassle too ! no non payers, no idiots sending me ready done artwork (obviously another signmakers) and asking me to quote it, etc. for eg, one reasonable job that might take 2 days from design to application, will make me more money than a months worth on ebay !!
i'm far happier making better quality work, i may still be learning, but i get alot more out of doing a van start to finish, than i ever did from ebay. i still do the occasional sign on there, but very rarely, it just aint worth the effort unless it's £50 a time type stuff ! #
re shopping local.... always, and i always try to avoid the big stores too, preferring to use proper butchers, timber / builders merchants (as apposed to the big overpriced DIY no knowledge retailers), local shops whenever possible for me !!! you simply can't bet the service and the knowledge that goes with experience, try asking the kid in walmart how long the battery will last on the cordless trash drill they sell... they'd prob lead you to the toothbrush aisle !
Posted by Ian Stewart-Koster (Member # 3500) on :
good thread & replies!
Ricky, "experience" is what you can offer that internet sales can't. That does cost money.
I do have some similar problems, but price is not the issue, just for some reason, going elsewhere & avoiding reciprocating the loyalty is what happens. Perhaps education is the answer?
Pricewise, I avoid a lot of that shopper's mentality by asking them what budget they had in mind. That gives me an idea of what possible standard they could be aiming for. Even if they're lying, it gives you an option to say yes you can so 'something' for that price or range, without you specifying just what, at this stage, or you can say no, but if you were aiming for something 'classy...whatever' it will be in this range, so they can figure that if you miss out, it'll be on standard/class, rather than price.
I have won a few jobs in the past by being the most expensive, but by also presenting an idea better than they'd formerly considered which intrigued them into forgetting all former phonecalls and going for a different image. Not always, but sometimes it does work that way.
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, and assure them I will do what I can to help them out. I even use the Letterhead database here to find shops that are local to my customers in case they do not feel comfortable applying their graphics themselves. I don't know if any of them use the shops I recommend but I think it says a lot about a company that takes the time to find those contacts.
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Hopefully I won't **** anyone off for getting longwinded and preachy.
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