An Arabian King dies and Oil Prices are friggin'getting wierd? Is there a trend here........? They are messin'around wid shyt.(AS Karyn, would say). And him and George, holding hands? Hmmm?
CrazyJack
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on August 10, 2005 07:38 PM:
Prices aren't weird, just high. Never to go back but only higher. Could be the planets are aligned wrong for all I know. A million conspiracy theories will abound on this one.
Posted by coop (Member # 504) on August 10, 2005 08:07 PM:
Posted by Don Coplen (Member # 127) on August 10, 2005 08:27 PM:
I agree, Coop.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on August 10, 2005 08:56 PM:
Actually, gas prices are fairly reasonable considering that - adjusted for inflation - the price of a barrel of oil in 1980 was approximately $85us.
In 1980, the average price for a gallon of Regular in my neck of the woods was $1.20. Adjusted for inflation, that same gallon would sell for $3.05us today.
The issues with Saudi Arabia isn't what has been causing the 40% spike over the past year. China has been increasing its demand for oil by over 100% the past few years.
Couple that with the recent nationalization of the Venezuela oil industry by Hugo Chavez and the industry strike in the Netherlands last year, the oil market has become unstable. You also have the political unrest going on in Nigeria to contend with.
The top two oil suppliers to the use are Mexico and Canada. Saudi Arabia is third, Venezuela is fourth and Nigeria is fifth. Saudi Arabia only accounts for 14.9% of the oil consumed in the US.
The other problem is that the US has not built any new refineries in nearly 25 years and the ones we have are operating at near capacity.
Another issue is the fact that the EPA mandates that there be 40+ different formulas. If the refineries were permitted to consolidate some of the formulas so that there were fewer of them, you'd see a definite drop in fuel prices.
Personally, I blame all those new quickie-stickie sign shops cropping up.
As for Bush holding Abdullah's hand, you just need to learn to be more culturally sensitive.
.
[ August 10, 2005, 08:58 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by Tim Whitcher (Member # 685) on August 10, 2005 11:36 PM:
What Glenn said. Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on August 10, 2005 11:58 PM:
quote:Originally posted by Glenn Taylor: Personally, I blame all those new quickie-stickie sign shops cropping up.
Always 1 for a good conspiracy theory, I think that line is the perfect starting of one. Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on August 11, 2005 01:02 AM:
Actually, the roots of this thing go back decades. The wealthy industrialists wanted a society that was more easily manipulated, part of this included the elimination of skilled artisans.
So under the pretext of war, the Eniack computer was developed, but it's real goal was to be the 'brain' of machines that were 'skillful'. A steady stream of calculated technical progress led to the availability of personel computers in every home and business. In order to appear less deliberate, a competitor was established, with the innocent looking logo of a common fruit.
After numerous meetings of the trilateral commision, the U.N. and others, it was decided that the most visible and obvious reminders of skilled labor were to be targeted first, thus sign writers came into focus.
By making sign machines widely available, layout and artistic, tasteful color choices were seldom practiced, as many operators knew little of the 'old ways'.
What the planners of this scheme didn't count on was a movement that came to be known as "THE LETTERHEADS". The most vocal advocates of this movement have come under close, but secret scrutiny. Especially the ones that promote it on busy, popular, well liked websites.
The final outcome is not yet known, time will tell... Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on August 11, 2005 02:25 AM:
Go to the middle east.. becoem friends with a male over there,, fail to hold his hand ,, you will find yourself being called strange,,
haha
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on August 11, 2005 04:43 AM:
Thanks Glenn!
Now you people know that CANADA exports more resources than "Mad Cow and Softwood Lumber" for your needs......
I wish your government would pull up to the plate, and sit down to P.E.I. Potatoes and a thick Alberta Steak for once! Under a house built with Canadian Spruce or Pine...............
What the hell!.. We will throw in some Off Shore natural gas for your BBQ.....
Need some water to wash this down with? I know we got some somewhere..
Posted by Bill Diaz (Member # 2549) on August 11, 2005 09:59 AM:
Anytime we put our people in harms way, we better be sure, and it better be for reasons other than just profits for the rich. Our young people are our most precious resource. They have honorably and noblely done their jobs without question and with the greatest resolve. It would be a shame if their sacrifices were for naught.
Lies and deceptions by world leaders with backroom wrangling in the guise of some greater good is the most criminal of all acts. Let's hope this is not the case, because the world will eventually know the truth, and the greedy will be despised and hunted down. It ain't lookin' good so far.
Meanwhile we better be trying to save our planet and seek other fuels. It seems those people in the hot spots of the world like the Middle East have their own issues to resolve. All the king's horses and all the king's men won't fix their problems. Should it be up to us?
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on August 11, 2005 10:09 AM:
Wow Glenn. I'm impressed. Your numbers are factual and presented in an objective way. Good on you.
I also notice plain & simple, a demand for gas during peak traveling seasons always increases prices. It just 'seems' like everyone's makin' that last vacation sprint before school starts again. I look for it to go down after school starts.
Don't forget Mr. Bill, this war is still about 9-11. Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on August 11, 2005 10:26 AM:
Amen, Bill
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on August 11, 2005 10:40 AM:
One subject that Glenn's thorough analysis doesn't touch on is "Peak Oil". As mentioned in another oil/pricing related post, The End of Suburbia is an excellent, though sobering documentary on Peak Oil's implications.
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on August 11, 2005 10:44 AM:
quote:Originally posted by Sheila Ferrell: Don't forget Mr. Bill, this war is still about 9-11.
Sheila...does the 'winkie' mean you're joking?
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on August 11, 2005 10:55 AM:
Nope.
Posted by Jim Upchurch (Member # 209) on August 11, 2005 11:41 AM:
quote:Originally posted by Bill Diaz: Anytime we put our people in harms way, we better be sure, and it better be for reasons other than just profits for the rich. Our young people are our most precious resource. They have honorably and noblely done their jobs without question and with the greatest resolve. It would be a shame if their sacrifices were for naught.
Lies and deceptions by world leaders with backroom wrangling in the guise of some greater good is the most criminal of all acts. Let's hope this is not the case, because the world will eventually know the truth, and the greedy will be despised and hunted down. It ain't lookin' good so far.
Meanwhile we better be trying to save our planet and seek other fuels. It seems those people in the hot spots of the world like the Middle East have their own issues to resolve. All the king's horses and all the king's men won't fix their problems. Should it be up to us?
What a horrible thing to suggest. If the US wanted Iraq's oil we would have taken it by now. On the one hand Bush isn't doing enough about oil prices and on the other hand he did too much for oil. Anything to avoid reality I guess.
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on August 11, 2005 11:56 AM:
quote:Originally posted by Sheila Ferrell: Don't forget Mr. Bill, this war is still about 9-11.
No, that's what the media wants you to believe Shiela.
This war is just a continuance of all the past struggles in the Middle East and it's hypocracy back in the 80's that started the last major battle when the US gave weapons to Saddam and trained his troops to take down the Ayahtola.
Welcome to the US Target of the Month Club. The US carries much fault in this because it's things like the above example that make those other countries despise us. The US chooses its allies based on who else has a beef with the current target of the day, regardless of if they were previously an enemy too.
War and everything else are just convenient excuses for oil prices to climb simply because it's in the Middle East, just like hurricanes in Florida were the scapegoat for lumber prices going up, as if there are no other alternatives for these resources.
**Edit**: I'm solicited at least twice a day by investment companies pimping stocks in oil. Obviously the oil market is being driven by investors "getting a piece of the action", just like the real estate boom - in other words, it's artificially inflated.
[ August 11, 2005, 12:08 PM: Message edited by: Mike Pipes ]
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on August 11, 2005 12:06 PM:
quote:Originally posted by Jon Aston: One subject that Glenn's thorough analysis doesn't touch on is "Peak Oil". As mentioned in another oil/pricing related post, The End of Suburbia is an excellent, though sobering documentary on Peak Oil's implications.
Actually, I'm very familiar with "Peak Oil". There is truth to what it says. I agree with the "The actual peak year will only be known after it has passed" statement.
I also remember in 1970 that we were being told that "the world would run out of oil in thirty years."
One of the good things about adversity - in this case the rising cost of oil - is that it forces us to adapt. I doubt the dramatic improvements in electric motors, batteries and alternative fuels this past decade would have happened otherwise.
But, I don't think the "Peak Oil" senario is going to have as dramatic effect as the study suggests. The human species is a pretty resilient one.
***
Back to Kissy's response to my comment about quickie-stickie shops, it got me to thinking about how the sign industry has changed and how much more it depends on oil than it did just 20 years ago.
Back then, our little commercial shop relied primarily on MDO, lumber and paint.
Today, its Coroplast, vinyl, Alumalite, Dibond and HDU.
It makes me wonder just how much more of a demand the industry has made on the need for oil.
***
As for the current war and who lied and whether or not its about 9/11, its all debatable. And I'd be happy to debate it with anyone who'd like to, but not here. I think we can all agree that its a touchy subject and that Steve & Barb have better things to do than make sure we all don't get overheated on the subject. If anyone really would like to debate it, let me know. I can direct you to a more appropriate forum where we can duke it out. Posted by Barb Schilling (Member # 13) on August 11, 2005 12:27 PM:
Glenn, Can you elaborate on the statement, "Another issue is the fact that the EPA mandates that there be 40+ different formulas. If the refineries were permitted to consolidate some of the formulas so that there were fewer of them, you'd see a definite drop in fuel prices."
I never heard of this element before. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
I think your comments bout the oil based products used in our shops today is right on. I keep waiting for the shoe to drop and the vinyl prices to skyrocket. HMMM that will make PAINT(ed signs) more VALLUABLE again! I'd welcome a bit of relief to the slower pace of the "traditional paint" sign days.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on August 11, 2005 12:32 PM:
Barb,
I'll be happy to, but I'll have to do it tonight after work. I have the documentation bookmarked on my computer at home. Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on August 11, 2005 01:42 PM:
Mike, that's a common set of ideas.
It makes me ask the obvious questions, tongue-in-cheek:
If the war is NOT about 9-11, then WHAT are we DOING ABOUT 9-11? What would you like to do about it, Pimp?? If the war is NOT about 9-11, should'nt someone be responding to the act of war that was perpetrated against us that day?
I'm sorry to have to say, if the 60's 'Let it be' mentality, or the opposite mentality of 'back & forth' retaliation are the only 'actions' people can come up with, get ready for the US war-zone destruction that would otherwise be coming except for a military that is willing to continue to fend it off...
Posted by Paul McDowell (Member # 5092) on August 11, 2005 02:46 PM:
I dont have the bookmarks that glenn has but the boutique fuels (gas specific to a certain region or state) demanded by the epa and state legislatures serve to make fuel production more expensive.
We have a limited number of refinement plants because the federal government had made it impossible to build new plants in the US. Combine that with an increasing demand for fuel and more varieties of fuel and you are eventually going to push their capabilities to the maximum. Last summer (i believe) a refinement plant had a bad day and beause of that Illinois nearly ran out of the specific blend of fuel(ethanol) that the state required.
The EPA has a number of documents that show this on their boutique fuels page. Several documents show how certain blends reduce overall capacity and how upcoming standards will reduce capacity even more. http://www.epa.gov/otaq/boutique.htm
By the way, readers should try "Bottomless Well" sometime.
Posted by Rovelle W. Gratz (Member # 4404) on August 11, 2005 03:05 PM:
Sounds Political to me.....Some folks will try to blame Bush for everything.
I would like to know how Bush raised gas prices.
Posted by Don Coplen (Member # 127) on August 11, 2005 03:07 PM:
quote:Originally posted by Rovelle W. Gratz: Sounds Political to me.....Some folks will try to blame Bush for everything.
I would like to know how Bush raised gas prices.
I'd like to know how Bush raises prices all around the world.
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on August 11, 2005 06:49 PM:
Don't know Don...
How does one Person try to control the Middle East?, and not effect the rest of the World!
Is it "HIM" or the "Fast Food" or "Car Industry"
Maybe the "I want to be Rich Quick Industry"
but not the "Live a Modest Life Industry"
His additued of "I am Big Brother" will get his knees kicked with 6.5 billion people around the world,
But back to the real world,.. I can still sketch a picture with Charcoal and Paper to make a Sign!!!!!!
Or the drawings on the Cave Wall....We were here!
[ August 11, 2005, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Deveau ]
Posted by jack wills (Member # 521) on August 11, 2005 10:27 PM:
For what it's worth... Comparing today's computer generated signage to yesterday's hand painted signage actually says to me that the hand painted days have no value to the sign world of today. BUT, there was definately less hassle by the painter. What is convenient (now only) has to do with the customer and it is in a range of usually "how cheap can I get it for?" As a journeyman, sign guy I gave a lot of stuff away, but in the long run it brought me more work and money with a lot less trips to the supply house who are the people who make the better part of the project money. Argue all day but cost to operate was always less yesterday and most of the money went home. Period.....................and I didn't need an accountant then. It's a bean counters world today and they control the fast shops. Hand Painted, RULES !
CrazyJack
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on August 12, 2005 08:41 AM:
Glenn:
Don't you think we might be seeing evidence that we are already past the peak?
(Mike "Tranny" O'Neil posted some interesting reading here and I added a few additional bits of reading from the same source here, if you're interested.)
The problem isn't that we will run out of oil. The problem is that the cost of extracting oil from an oilfield that has passed it's peak increases sharply - because it takes increasingly more energy to extract - not to mention consequently increasing costs of transporting, processing lower grade, more expensive oil...and distributing it (a sort of exponential 'double-whammy', when you think about it).
When the world's supply peaks...
Seriously: Rent "The End of Suburbia" if you can. If you can't...buy it. I know the title sounds apocalyptic...but that isn't the point (not at all). The point is that "peak oil" is coming...hard and fast. We may already be there. Better to accept the likelyhood and begin taking (or at least planning to take) steps to adapt now. Your government isn't going to do it for you, anymore than mine is for me. It has to happen on a local, grassroots level.
[ August 12, 2005, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on August 12, 2005 09:26 AM:
Although I agree Jon that oil prices and energy prices are probably going even higher, those apocolyptic books you refer to, go too far. At least it remains to be seen. Remember Paul Ehrlich's Population Bomb? It sure seemed reasonable at the time to many people.
Always a another modern day Malthus to come along. That's not to say I won't be ready.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on August 12, 2005 09:30 AM:
Don't worry - - be happy.
The cold war era Russian "Suitcase" nukes that were planted all over the US in anticipation of a nuclear war by the Russians have been identified and sold by Rogue ex-kgb agents to Al-Qaeda.
The "American Hiroshima" as Al-Qaeda calls it, will be detonated in tandem soon enough, according to investigative reports, and then Mike will see the light....most likely literally.....about the importance of knocking out the Muslim fanatics.
Regarding oil? I believe we should have taken over all of Iraq's oil resources temporarily, and extracted what we felt was compensation for freeing the Iraqi's from Sadaam. The majority of Iraqi's are glad we made the change - - they should pay for our expenses with their oil.
Now...for the "don't worry ... be happy" part:
If you purchase a gasoline powered car today....that will probably be the last one you'll purchase because hybrids will become the norm in just a few short years...and that's a fact. Toyota and Honda are leading the way with everyone else ramping up and following fast.
Hydrogen powered vehicles are following quickly behind and will be the overwhelming automotive choice within 15 years, when we have a fully expanded fueling infrastructure.
They are not "being" developed.....they have BEEN developed...are very reliable, and provide the same safety factor we have come to live with with gasoline powered vehicles. No need to worry about driving around with a "bomb" in your vehicle....we've accepted the fact that we drive around with 16 gallons of highly flamable, combustable, explosive fuel in them haven't we? They're refinning the process of how to attain the hydro in more efficient ways now....and there's an endless supply of it. Mark my words...it's on it's way.
Hydro's will be a huge factor in our independence from the oil nuts. Products will still require oil...but think of what a massive decrease in demand there will be when we begin the hydro changeover... you guys have to start watching "Modern Marvels" more on the history channel.
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on August 12, 2005 09:40 AM:
quote:Originally posted by David Wright: That's not to say I won't be ready.
..and that's really my point, David.
Like you, I would much rather prepare for and manage predictable change than be subject to it.
That's it from me on the subject.
Posted by Bill Preston (Member # 1314) on August 12, 2005 11:16 AM:
Leaving politics aside, the one thing Glenn didn't mention has to do with the price of energy in the early 80s being higher relatively speaking than the current prices.
The two oil embargoes of the 70s translated into a round of inflation that IMHO the economy never fully recovered from. Remember WIN---the "whip inflation now" buttons? The prices of everything went through the roof, in the meantime energy prices slowed, and eventually fell behind to a level that the public could live with.
If I had to make a guess, it would be that we are in for another round of inflation due only to the current spike in crude, that will make the inflation of the late 70s look like a warm up exercise.
Winter is on it's way, and I don't look forward to home heating prices on top of gas prices.
bill preston
[ August 12, 2005, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: Bill Preston ]
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on August 12, 2005 01:06 PM:
Todd, yep they are not on the way, they are here, NOW.
Those hydrogen cars Honda and Toyota are working on are on the road for testing, I've seen them in my area. They're easy to spot, they have big vinyl Le Bras covering body panels so they're tough yet not impossible to identify, and they run without a single trace of noise. They fuel up at Hydrogen stations (solar powered electrolosis plants) in Las Vegas, 2.5 hours away from here. We don't have any Hyrogen stations here so we know they have at least a 5 hour range.
Ford and Nissan have some stuff in the works too, they're also doing road tests. Nissan always tests their vehicles out here and Ford has a proving grounds 45 minutes away.
Last weekend I also saw what appears to be some kind of Chevy or GMC truck under wraps. That could have just been a regular new model under testing though, doubt they'd build a hybrid or H-powered Full size truck.
There's even a hydrogen fuel cell powered motorcycle by a UK firm Intelligent Energy - people complain it's *too* quiet, because it sounds like a laptop computer.. LOL
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on August 12, 2005 03:45 PM:
Mike - GM also has a hydro car completed and it's built on what they call a "skateboard" chassis. Amazingly, the entire drive train fits within a frame that is only 12" tall....and this gives them the option of putting whatever body style they want atop it....they're talking about the ability to buy a particular model car, and then buy another completely different body style to switch it out...kind of like having a couple pair of designer sunglasses...although I doubt anyone but the well off or excessively shallow would go to those extremes....
The Truck you saw was most likely a new body style design for Chevy/GMC.....I heard that they are changing body styles in '07......
GM does offer a "hybrid" of sorts in a 2 wheel drive extended cab only model now (I believe it's a 2005 - or for sure '06).....which has only the electrical system running off a fuel cell. They figure the electrical system accounts for a fair amount of loss of fuel economy as it is a drain on engine performance.....so they say this will give them maybe 10-15% better fuel economy.
Not sure what the long range plans are for trucks in regards to fuel technology.
One thing...I do agree with all who talk about the myriad standards of refining....they need to get to one for diesel and one for gas and stay there.
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on August 12, 2005 03:54 PM:
I watched something the other night on one of the TLC or Discovery channels. It was about a guy who was perfecting an alternate fuel for automobiles. I forget a lot of the details but it had to do with altering water. He first developed this for something altogether different like a welding process. Anyway, it alters the makeup of water ( I think ) and when a few drops of gasoline were added to the concoction, it made for a fuel that produced milage figures in the 90 mpg range. I wish I had paid better attention but a lot of it was way over my head.I
Posted by Don Coplen (Member # 127) on August 12, 2005 04:24 PM:
That's nice, George, but don't you see yet how this all works?
Once they develop a fuel that requires mixing "altered" water and a few drops of gasoline, the price of gasoline will go up to two bucks a drop, and our water bill will go through the roof.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on August 12, 2005 04:50 PM:
Barb,
I'm sorry for not getting back to you last night. My air compressor siezed up and burned the motor out and I'm been scrambling to get it fixed.
I think Paul pretty much covered it. This link might be of use to you. It can better expain things better than I can.
******
Jon,
I don't think we've "peaked" yet. In fact, I think its farther down the road than we realize. The reason why I say this is because we are sitting on untold billions, even trillions of barrels of oil because of the effective efforts by environmentalist organizations to prevent the opening of new fields in the Gulf of Mexico and off the coasts of California and North Carolina and elsewhere.
It was just announced yesterday that a new field has been discovered in the North Sea. Link
When you factor those things in along with the new techologies in hybrid and hydrogen-fueled vehicles, I think the overall supply will stretch further than what anyone can reasonably surmise. David's comment about "The Population Bomb" is a perfect example of why I'm skeptical of such doom'n'gloom.
*****
Bill,
I don't think inflation is going to be as big a factor as it was in the 1970's. I tend to agree with people such as Dr. Walter E. Williams when he says that inflation is when the Dollar is worth less because Congress printed too much (I'm paraphasing).
Greenspan has done a good job of preventing too much money from being printed and flooding the market as it was back then. Its one of the reasons why inflation has remained low inspite of the jumps in the price of oil in 2000 through 2005.
****
Now here's a quiz for all of you.
Which state mandates a "Minimum" gasoline price? In other words, you are prevented by law from selling gasoline below a certain price.
.
Posted by Bobbie Rochow (Member # 3341) on August 12, 2005 04:55 PM:
PA????
I DON'T KNOW, BUT GAS AROUND HERE HAS JUST GONE UP TO $1.49 A GALLON!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am SOOO glad we heat with pure wood both in my shop & the house!!!
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on August 12, 2005 05:11 PM:
Here's a link to what one of my favorite guys says about it:
its up to $2.49 here!
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on August 12, 2005 05:36 PM:
Ha ha....we're up to $2.60......got you beat Karyn. Hahahahahah....uh, wait a minute....that's not funny!
Posted by Bill Preston (Member # 1314) on August 12, 2005 07:14 PM:
Sorry, Glenn, but I have to disagree. We as a nation are already seeing fairly heavy duty price increases, particularly in transportation/freight charges. In order to stay in business these cost increases have to be passed along. aka "cost-push" inflation, as opposed to "demand-pull" inflation.
When you referred to Greenspan and the Federal Reserve adjusting interest rates in order to hold down inflation, this goes back about 60 years or so when the Federal government adopted Keynesian policy. About all this means is that prior to that time, governments in general had a hands off way of trying to regulate their respective economies. Let the market regulate the economy.
Keynes' notion was that deficit spending was---or could be-- a good thing. Public works, government funded to shoot for lower unemployment, etc. He put this idea to FDR in the middle 30s, and later FDR came around to his way of thinking with some reluctance. Middle of the Depression and all. Then WW2 came along, or at least the US' involvement, and unemployment fell from God only knows where, to something on the order of one percent.
Since that time the government has tried to fine tune the economy by way of interest rates, and the money supply---and not always with good results. (LBJ's guns and butter during Vietnam.)
Enough about that.
Two other things about energy prices. If taxes on fuel are based on retail price before taxes are added in, then the higher the price, the greater amount of taxes collected. A windfall for government---more money to spend---or heaven forbid reduce deficits. Given all that, why would goverment be interested in seeing energy prices go down---at least until the public begins to really scream?
The second thing IMHO is the distinct possibility of the oil companies artificially rigging a shortage by way of "problems with refineries, downtime for maintenance, etc." It was only three or four years ago that this turned out to be the case with West Coast electricity supply.
To be sure, there are real enough problems overseas in the oil producing nations, to say nothing about the high demand in China and India. But when all is said and done, I think the public in all the consuming nations in large measure is being "had."
bill preston
[ August 12, 2005, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: Bill Preston ]
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on August 12, 2005 08:39 PM:
quote:Sorry, Glenn, but I have to disagree. We as a nation are already seeing fairly heavy duty price increases, particularly in transportation/freight charges. In order to stay in business these cost increases have to be passed along. aka "cost-push" inflation, as opposed to "demand-pull" inflation.
That's true. But inflation has continued to stay at or below 4% in spite of it. Look back at 2000 when we had a huge spike in prices. It even sparked a Congressional investigation. Meanwhile, inflation peaked at 3.73% before it dropped back down again.
As you can see from this chart, inspite of the recent fuel price jumps, inflation has dropped from a high of 3.51% in April to June's 2.53%.
quote:When you referred to Greenspan and the Federal Reserve adjusting interest rates in order to hold down inflation, this goes back about 60 years or so when the Federal government adopted Keynesian policy. About all this means is that prior to that time, governments in general had a hands off way of trying to regulate their respective economies. Let the market regulate the economy.
Yes, Greenspan has been using interest rates as a way to control inflation. What is different now than in the 1970's is that Congress isn't printing excess money.
We have to remember that in 1971, Nixon released the dollar from the gold standard and putting an end to the Bretton Woods Pact. The result of this was that the value of the Dollar dropped. In August of 1971, the Government suspended the convertibility of the Dollar. As a result, the value of the Dollar had dropped by 8% by the end of the year. The Dollar was devalued again in 1973.
Combine the Yom Kippur War, the collapse of Bretton Woods, the Oil Embargo, you have the making of a system of extreme inflationary pressures that wouldn't ease until the mid-1980s.
quote:Two other things about energy prices. If taxes on fuel are based on retail price before taxes are added in, then the higher the price, the greater amount of taxes collected. A windfall for government---more money to spend---or heaven forbid reduce deficits. Given all that, why would goverment be interested in seeing energy prices go down---at least until the public begins to really scream?
Yes and no. As you can see from this chart, a plurality of States base their fuel taxes on "cents" rather than "percentage". Another handful of States issue a fuel tax based on a "percentage". Kentucky and Virginia do both as do California and a few others in the form of a sales tax.
The Fed's fuel tax is based on "cents". If I can remember correctly, I think its fixed at 18.4¢ per gallon.
When fuel prices go up, revenue typically drops because people drive less. This also causes people to become uneasy about the economy and cut back on spending on other products and services thereby reducing State and Federal revenues.
However, this Economy is behaving differently. GDP is expected to grow from the current 3.4% to 4% by next year inspite of increased oil prices.
quote: The second thing IMHO is the distinct possibility of the oil companies artificially rigging a shortage by way of "problems with refineries, downtime for maintenance, etc." It was only three or four years ago that this turned out to be the case with West Coast electricity supply.
Except that no refinery problems have been reported. At least none reported by the MSM (MainSteam Media). However, it has been rumored .
quote:To be sure, there are real enough problems overseas in the oil producing nations, to say nothing about the high demand in China and India. But when all is said and done, I think the public in all the consuming nations in large measure is being "had."
I'm not so sure. Not yet anyways. Looking at this chonological chart, the prices haven't reached any historic peaks yet that would suggest any price fixing.
.
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on August 13, 2005 06:25 AM:
Just a few things to remember...
We went to Iraq, without the support of UN sanctions, with the intention to remove Saddam Hussein from power. Why? To eliminate his weapons of mass destruction and assist the Iraqis in establishing a democratic government.
Saddam has been captured and is standing trial. Iraq is now under new leadership. If there were ever any WMDs, they have never been found.
What are we doing about 9-11? What we have been doing since it happened. Remembering it and continuing the worldwide hunt for the sombitch who planned it, Osama Bin Laden. and his cohorts in Al-Queda. Our nation is working to improve it's security measures to prevent terrorism at home and working with other nations to identify terrorist networks and those who would harm the innocent.
We continue to be the largest buyer of oil in the world. Despite what we should have learned in the 70's when we were waiting in line for hours to fill our gas tanks, we have done little to develop alternate energy resources.
All that being said, you have to admit to one simple truth...
During the cold war, the opponents knew each other's faces. They did not hide. They built up their arsenals in what was called a deterrent and ponied up their own $$$ to do so. In the end, Communism was not defeated, it simply ran out of money and could no longer support itself. The cold war ended without a shot fired.
Once again there is an "ism" that we are doing battle with...terrorism. Unlike Communism, this one plays by a wholly different set of rules. The weapons are less deadly, but used more readily, often strapped onto the attackers themselves in suicide bombings. We do not know who they are and, often, where they are. They are not associated with a single nation like Russia. They are everywhere and nowhere at once. They do not stand on a battlefield, yet claim victoy when they kill non-combatants. They are like thieves in the night. They have no honor.
The rules of engagement have changed and as long as we continue to buy oil from nations in the middle east who financially support terrorism, the real fuel in this battle...money...will continue to flow into the hands of our enemies.
Time to change the rules. Rapid
Posted by Bill Diaz (Member # 2549) on August 13, 2005 10:57 AM:
Ray, that is a very accurate assessment of where we've been and where we are. Make no mistake, just because you question present policy, it does not mean you are not patriotic.
Now that we're in Iraq and the world has witnessed "Shock and Awe" and the president's declaration of success on the deck of the carrier, we know we've entered a new era. This is one where an enemy is willing to strap himself with bombs and take his life and others -- even his own countryman. Who would have though it would be so. The rules of engagement have changed, just as they did during Vietnam.
I for one have no answers and worry about things in the world. I worry that instead of coming together to solve problems that could affect both sides like global warming, we have concentrated our energies on tearing each other apart. Two great world wars and several conflicts later and our sons and daughters are still in harms way and the world still has no answers. Throw nationalism and religion out, this is not 2 guys squaring off in the parking lot, this is a reality check on the human condition. This is desperation, pain and suffering on an escalating scale. Will it ever stop?
We are born to die. We don't know when our time will come, and almost every family has lost a member that has not lived a complete and full life. I always said I wanted to live at least as long as I could to see my children become mature enough to fend for themselves. I have reached that goal, and if my time comes soon, I will find comfort in that. I worry about my grandchildren and humanity in general; however, and see that compassion and love are too often in short supply. I see money and power being the root of all evil and I see a downhill slide to nowhere.
If I had all the answers and the balls, I would step forward and try to become a world leader, as I think those folks have the best shot at affecting change. Sometimes world leaders don't want to compromise though. We revere the ones who have.
I only have questions and grave concerns, and I think love and understanding need to surface. I wonder if it will occur in my life time.
Do I think this has anything to do with being a Letterhead? You bet -- it's about life. It's about communication and understanding. Isn't that why we have keypads in front of us? Isn't that why we have a forum. We can discuss techniques, equipment and procedures until we're blue in the face, but we're more well rounded than that aren't we? Don't you want to know how another feels about issues that really yank you? I do.
Posted by VICTORGEORGIOU (Member # 474) on August 13, 2005 01:42 PM:
Glenn's humor about quickie stickies actually has a kernal of truth in it.
All the vinyl, banner, and PVC materials are petroleum based, so vinyl does consume a miniscule part of the oil supply.
When gas goes up, expect your signmaking costs to rise as well. Vic G
Posted by W. R. Pickett (Member # 3842) on August 13, 2005 02:12 PM:
...The "funny' thing is that the oil companies are making record profits (in the billions) this year. And we all have no choice but get reamed more and more for gas. ...Who has an "oil man" friend in the white house?
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on August 13, 2005 07:51 PM:
quote:Originally posted by W. R. Pickett: ...The "funny' thing is that the oil companies are making record profits (in the billions) this year. And we all have no choice but get reamed more and more for gas. ...Who has an "oil man" friend in the white house?
Who do I get to blame in the White House for the jump in the price of Aluminum and Redwood?
The fact is that oil companies derive their "profits from oil exploration and production." The profit in gasoline is actually very small.
Oil is just a commodity like gold and pork bellies. The oil companies actually have very little contol over the price of oil.
And while oil companies are currently enjoying near-record profits, when you consider the fact that oil was just $10 a barrel in 1998 due to oversupply, it makes perfect sense.
If I bought a huge supply of MDO from Sign Supply, USA last year because they were running a sale at 10¢ on the Dollar, am I a bad guy for making it into a sign and base my price on what MDO would cost today?
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on August 13, 2005 08:27 PM:
Yes, Glenn, in some people's minds you would be wrong...
One time my supply house clraring out their stock of the 3" ShurLine rollers. I bought 250 roller sleeves, end caps, and handles for 10 cents apiece. They were regularly a dollar each in the store.
A shop I was subbing for asked about getting some of those. I offered them to him for 50 cents a piece. He called me a thief and an a**hole for trying to take advantage of him because, afterall, I had paid far less than that.
I told him that he should be happy because I was selling them to him for half price. He disagreed. I kept my rollers.
Posted by jack wills (Member # 521) on August 13, 2005 10:17 PM:
To Bill Diaz,
You got the balls to make your BOLD statement. If history reminds us of anything...World War 2 was about oil with both Germany and Japan. Vietnam, was about rubber and coffee and the chinese wanted some too. Oh,Korea also was about petro and the Asian'conflicts were focused on south asia oil. So throw out the oil issue completely and talk about why...all the wars? Let's say Oil was not an issue. So what was it? Oh, why was the Afganistan area left? Hmm? Any oil there? What a mess! I would like to hear from the lips of the president that a mistake was made about WMD'S and then I would be on his side at least until the next.........
CrazyJack, nationalist reactionary human! Ilove my USA
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on August 14, 2005 06:09 AM:
Thank You Jack!
WW2 was nothing more than the control by Hitler for a resource of Oil to help feed the growing needs of the Industrial revolution of its time..
Japan was in its own crunch as well!
This is the only reason the 2 forces join a battle bond together....
Today is no different as we watch Countries Leaders going to bed with each other.
It is more than a wake up call,, Saying that the world is now on its last leg in controllers of resources..
Now is the time for all to bond together and work for a future goal of harvesting the Suns energy or anything next to it! Posted by Hugh Potter (Member # 5748) on August 14, 2005 07:54 AM:
blimey, i thought it was us brits that whined loudest !!
come over here, spend 95p per litre (4.5L to an Imperial gallon), that'll be about $1.75 per litre, so about $7 a us gallon,
quit whining !
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on August 14, 2005 08:37 AM:
Bruce, you just described a very practical, down-to-earth, everyday-way of thinking about consumer-driven prices.
Did your freind stop to consider the time you spent either on the phone, or AT the supply house discussing the sale on the rollers?? If you actually picked them up and unloaded the stuff at your shop, boy, think of the time in THAT.
Even if they were shipped to you, how 'bout the time you spent unpacking and storing or organizing in some accessible way, the 3 components you mentioned??
Not to mention the minutes you spent on the phone haggling with him about the price. Even if it was only 5 minutes..... 'Could'a been 5 minutes you spent on a $60 an hour job.
The point is, (and all this has been said repeatedly on this post in 'economics' terms) every 'middle man' has to make at least some amount of profit for even the smallest amount of time spent handling the goods.
If you translate Bruce's analogy to gas, (or any high-demand product)looking at how many people handle it from the raw stage to the pump . . . . well, .....there's a lotta people involved in that. Not justifying or making excuses for high prices, but as an example, I wonder what a trucking companies liability insurance alone is for transfering/unloading fuel to one gas station?
In the mean time, I take my consumer-driven self right on down there to one of the 3 places in town, always at least 3 cents cheaper than any other place, and put gas in my vehicle without even worrying about the price. If gas is going up, my sign prices are goin' up along with everything else that's goin' up. Precisley the point in some of these posts. Economics.
And please, don't barrage me with reports about how much safer corn-fuel or 'water-based-fuel or any of that stuff. If anyone ever finds a fuel that will run an 8 cylinder fullsize pick-up at least 75 down the interstate for at least 4 hours, FINE.
Furthermore, people can gripe all they want that people like me and my 'gas guzzlin' ways' are 'the problem'...but I'm going to drive a mid-to-large size truck 'til pigs fly 'cause I STILL can't carry a 4x8 and/or two 16'x6x6's on a bike, a moped, or a tonka-toy size two-seater.
Posted by Mark Perkins (Member # 296) on August 14, 2005 10:22 AM:
WOULDN'T IT BE GREAT TO TURN ON THE TV AND HEAR ANY U.S. PRESIDENT, DEMOCRAT OR REPUBLICAN GIVE THE FOLLOWING SPEECH? > > My Fellow Americans: As you all know, the defeat of Iraq regime has been completed. Since congress does not want to spend any more money on this war, our mission in Iraq is complete. This morning I gave the order for a complete removal of all American forces from Iraq. This action will be complete within 30 days. It is now to begin the reckoning. Before me, I have two lists. One list contains the names of countries which have stood by our side during the Iraq conflict. This list is short. The United Kingdom, Spain, Bulgaria, Australia, and Poland are some of the countries listed there. The other list contains everyone not on the first list. Most of the world's nations are on that list. My press secretary will be distributing copies of both lists later this evening. Let me start by saying that effective immediately, foreign aid to those nations on List 2 ceases immediately and indefinitely. The money saved during the first year alone will pretty much pay for the costs of the Iraqi war. The American people are no longer going to pour money into third world Hell-holes and watch those government leaders grow fat on corruption. Need help with a famine? Wrestling with an epidemic? Call France. In the future, together with Congress, I will work to redirect this money toward solving the vexing social problems we still have at home. On that note, a word to terrorist organizations. Screw with us and we will hunt you down and eliminate you and all your friends from the face of the earth. Thirsting for a gutsy country to terrorize? Try France, or maybe China. I am ordering the immediate severing of diplomatic relations with France, Germany, and Russia. Thanks for all your help, comrades. We are retiring from NATO as well. Bon chance, mes amis. I have instructed the Mayor of New York City to begin towing the many UN diplomatic vehicles located in Manhattan with more than two unpaid parking tickets to sites where those vehicles will be stripped, shredded and crushed. I don't care about whatever treaty pertains to this. You creeps have tens of thousands of unpaid tickets. Pay those tickets tomorrow or watch your precious Benzes, Beamers and limos be turned over to some of the finest chop shops in the world. I love New York A special note to our neighbors. Canada is on List 2. Since we are likely to be seeing a lot more of each other, you folks might want to try not ****ing us off for a change. Mexico is also on List 2. President Fox and his entire corrupt government really need an attitude adjustment. I will have a couple extra tank and infantry divisions sitting around. Guess where I am going to put em? Yep, border security. So start doing something with your oil. Oh, by the way, the United States is abrogating the NAFTA treaty - starting now. We are tired of the one-way highway. Immediately, we'll be drilling for oil in Alaska - which will take care of this country's oil needs for decades to come. If you're an environmentalist who opposes this decision, I refer you to List 2 above: pick a country and move there. They care. It is time for America to focus on its own welfare and its own citizens. Some will accuse us of isolationism. I answer them by saying, "darn tootin." Nearly a century of trying to help folks live a decent life around the world has only earned us the undying enmity of just about everyone on the planet. It is time to eliminate hunger in America. It is time to eliminate homelessness in America. It is time to eliminate World Cup Soccer from America. To the nations on List 1, a final thought. Thanks guys. We owe you and we won't forget. To the nations on List 2, a final thought: You might want to learn to speak Arabic.
God bless America. Thank you and good night.
If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you are reading it in English, thank a soldier.
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on August 14, 2005 11:23 AM:
Just for the record, Mark, there are plenty of Canadian troops in harm's way in Afghanistan. Have been from the beginning. Canadians didn't (and don't) support your country's war on Iraq - and with good reason, as it turns out. There weren't any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, no direct links between Iraq and 9/11, etc. You should be angry with your present administration for lying to you and the rest of the American people...not to mention the costs (human and financial) of their policies and decisions.
NAFTA? Don't make us laugh. Read something about the softwood lumber dispute. The U.S. Government doesn't play by the rules unless it suits them.
If I disagree with you does that make me anti-American? I would like to believe that such a viewpoint is a little too simplistic for most Americans to swallow.
[ August 14, 2005, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on August 14, 2005 12:20 PM:
Anyone stop to think the cost of oil probably has more to do with the yahoos on Wall Street trading it up higher and higher, than it does a war?
Sure, war creates fear and uncertainty but it's the frenzied morons on the stock exchange floor controlling the cost.
Then other investors see the prices go up and that just causes more of a frenzy with people trying to get in on the action, which continues driving the price up.
Gee.. it's just like the current real estate market - an artificially inflated bubble.
I get at least one phone call a day from investment firms wanting me to invest in oil - each time it's a different firm. That tells me something, kinda like how there's 1200 real estate agents in this dumpy little desert town I live in.
Eventually, the wheels are gonna break on that bandwagon.
Posted by Mark Perkins (Member # 296) on August 14, 2005 02:00 PM:
Jon, I didn't write that but I agree with a lot of it. Believe me I don't think we should have gone to Iraq in the first place, the sooner we can get our boys out of there the better. Do you know how you can tell if a politician is lying? watch his lips if they move......... the only people I consider anti american are the ones who try to kill us
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on August 14, 2005 02:35 PM:
quote: Eventually, the wheels are gonna break on that bandwagon.
Like Bill, I'd rather that didn't happen to my children or theirs.
The real problem is that world leaders tend to spend the resources generated by it's citizens greasing the wheels (and sometimnes lining their own pockets), when it's citizens are in need of a whole new set of tires.
As I said above, we, meaning all nations, have progressed and need to re-evaluated the way we do business. Countries in which we were in conflict with are now often our partners when it comes to money markets, humanitarian aide, medical research and much more. Moreso than ever, the global community is more interdependant and interactive than any othe time in history.
Unlike Mark, I think it would be virtually impossible for any one nation to put itself in an isolationist position. There aren't any who could survive it without the onset of the enevitable outcome. As that structure breaks down, uprisings, dissention and wars start. Every war ever fought in world histroy has been fought because the demand for another nation's resources.
We can no longer blind ourselves to the fact that the resaourses on this planet are controlled by a tiny percentage of it's population. Yes, the stock market traders are there wheeling and dealing. Much of what they do is based on the actions and decisions of OPEC, thus trimming down the nuber of people effecting the whole world's economy. Throw in some panic driven trading on a few good rumours and the whole thing continues to get out of whack.
Therein lies the real problem. As Americans, we have always supported and encouraged free market societies, yet as time has begun to show, their is an icreasing number of people who are homeless, cannot pay their bills or afford to maintain their health while the upper class continues to make it more difficult to do so based on the "percieved value" of commodities.
Catch 22.
Bill, I am patriotic, but I honestly feel that everyone in this nation is moreso when they question and challenge thier leadership. It's the foundation of the system of checks and balances under which we live. Without the voice of the people, it fails.
It may not be the "perfect system" and certainly isn't seen that way by some other countries, but the basic principles are sound. The true power lies within the people of this country and it's leadership is obligated to act as their citizens see fit. It's when we lose faith in that system and don't speak up that we fail. Of late, it seems that here and in other countries, leaders have been running off and doing whatever they please without the concerns or permissions of the people they represent and falling short on reasons why they have done so.
I for one refuse to let that continue when it affect the future of the world I have brought my children into. They need new tires and deserve better than the same old retreads this world continues to offer. New rules...
If one voice can make it happen for them, expect mine to be the loudest. Rapid
PS: Bill, I'm looking forward to Jill's meet so I can shake your hand.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on August 14, 2005 02:42 PM:
Sadaam was in and of himself a weapon of mass destruction.
One of my most satisfying days was being able to view the waxy patched up bodies of Sadaam's two sons on national tv (well, cable tv - I don't watch the national news).
Funny how the radical lefties love to talk about human rights, but if it requires sacrifice they'd just as soon continue allowing people like Uday and Qusay Hussein feed guys alive into chipper shredders and to tigers - just for fun rather than stepping out and doing something about it.
I guess human rights stops at the border?!
....it's actually "The love of money is the root of all evil."
There is a difference.....having money, in and of itself doesn't cause one to be evil....and let's not forget, even the poorest amongst us in the US is considered wealthy by 9/10 of the rest of the world. So when you talk about the rich - look in the mirror...because it's you, whether you think so or not...and ask yourself what you have done lately with the money you're blessed with to help somebody out who is truly needy?
[ August 14, 2005, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on August 14, 2005 03:22 PM:
HEY... I think this post has enough replies for me to post some quotes
quote:Originally posted by Todd Gill: "Many Americans don't give a $hit what Canadians think about our war on terrorism"
SPEAK FOR YOURSELF TODD, BUT DON'T EVEN TRY TO SPEAK FOR ALL AMERICANS, & DON'T DARE TO CALL IT... ok, go ahead & call it OUR WAR if you must, ...call it a war on terrorism too... most of the world sees it as the smoke & mirror BS that it is... even if an alleged majority of American electoral collage votes seemed to have support for it at one crucial time. It's looking a little muddier over there lately BTW as far as mass support at home is concerned.
...and as far as you preposterous self-serving caricature of left-winged thought (OK you said radical lefties... but you're throwing stones from the right to the left...) well, before I get tempted to reply to that $h...
quote: As for the current war and who lied and whether or not its about 9/11, its all debatable. And I'd be happy to debate it with anyone who'd like to, but not here. I think we can all agree that its a touchy subject and that Steve & Barb have better things to do than make sure we all don't get overheated on the subject. If anyone really would like to debate it, let me know. I can direct you to a more appropriate forum where we can duke it out.
*edited to say I stand corrected & therefore felt I should add that word back in that I unintentionally left out.
[ August 14, 2005, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on August 14, 2005 09:35 PM:
Hi Doug...if you're going to quote things that I decided to edit out...at least quote them in their entirety....
The original line was, "Many Americans don't give a $hit what Canadians think about our war on terrorism."
The word "Many" makes a great difference in how you should have responded...because "many" is true.....many don't.
I originally responded in a bit of a huff over what I felt was Jon's delight in bashing the US ....and then decided to tone it down a notch...which I think was the prudent thing to do...by deleting that line a couple minutes later.
But since you caught it and decided to throw it back out there...here it is in it's original form. But at least quote it as originally posted.
Now...please answer me this: Do human rights stop at the border?
Administrations of both major parties apparently think that human rights belong to all the world, and therefor, we have a duty to ensure we help secure them.
We are not perfect...but at least we do something. Posted by Jill Marie Welsh (Member # 1912) on August 14, 2005 09:43 PM:
...as an aside, in a matter of 4 hours yesterday, gas at one local station went up 10¢ per gallon. Love....Jill
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on August 14, 2005 09:52 PM:
Not to be picky...but I'd also change your line asking me not to speak for all Americans...because I didn't - just "many" - and I would not speak for everyone as I know that not all Americans subscribe to my viewpoint.
I'd say that it is "our" war whether you like it or not, because collectively we are all Americans....and America IS at war.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on August 14, 2005 09:53 PM:
Where's Gavin? Seems like this would be the likely point in the discussion for his arrival... Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on August 14, 2005 10:06 PM:
"Now...please answer me this: Do human rights stop at the border?"
I guess we have to define "Human Rights" I'd like to think I know right from wrong & as a religious guy, I think you believe what is "right" is a universal truth & therefore is already defined & already a god-given "right" around the world. If so, to a large degree I would agree with you.
"both major parties apparently think that human rights belong to all the world, and therefor, we have a duty to ensure we help secure them"
now to discuss this further we would have to define how we "help secure them"
Without yet coming to agreement on the definition of those terms I will say that I think "rights" vary based on situation... like for example the right to freely discuss political diferences may be a right in many, but not all countries... & of course it is not a right in this forum. So without further treading across those lines, I make the comparison that one prophet is alleged to have once said "Why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but the plank in your own eye you do not consider?"
America tries to judge what Human rights should be for the world, & of course I would agree that our example is far better in many ways then some of the attrocities I've heard of around the world... but I think we still have a plank in our own eye to consider regarding human rights before we "help secure them" for other nations. Other nations think we westerners should have the right to own & abuse women. They should not wage war with us to help secure those rights, & perhaps we (Americans)should think twice about some of the agression we are guilty over over the course of history. Does this mean I want to watch innocent people fed into chippers for fun? get real!
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on August 14, 2005 10:19 PM:
ok... ladies, gentlemen, mayor & first lady of letterville... I have ventured further into questionable territory then I hoped & I now retreat & return you all to your previously edgy thread in hopes that I have not tipped it too far & spoiled it for others. Aloha Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on August 14, 2005 11:52 PM:
Thanks Doug. We've been really busy the last few days. This post has really gathered some steam since I last read it.
There's some good stuff here, but I can see it starting to turn into another American politics debate. Everytime that happens, things go down hill real fast. Instead of bringing us together over our comman interest in Letterheads, this sort of discussion only only serves to divide us.
As one of the creators of this BB, I'm committed to ensuring that all of our users leave here with a feeling they learned something or made some new friends. Once again I ask that you honour the Law Of letterville and refrain from political, religious and other posts that we all know will result in dividing us for all the wrong reasons.
Let's talk about fixing the gas problem instead of fixing the blame.
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on August 14, 2005 11:56 PM:
Assorted thoughts:
I saw it coming, I knew they were going to spike the price of oil. I've been waiting for it the last several years.
Then, during the election, oil prices were going up, but gas was staying the same. Hmmm, betcha 'somebody' was releasing the strategic reserves, to keep gas prices artificialy low.
Glad I got into the Toyota truck, out of the full size Dodge. I'm an ex druggie, like really really hard use, and what gets me is that if even I could see it coming, how come everybody kept on buying the monster SUV's? Slaves to fashion?
It appears that they're using any trivial excuse to raise the prices, some things are obvious. Next it'll be tied to something like groundhog day: "look! he saw his shadow' raise prices!"
What irks me bad is the feeling that I'm being manipulated by this executive office. Gee, things are looking bad in Iraq, have a press release in favor of inteligent design, a.k.a. shore up the voter base. But for what? Republican-ism in the next term? We've already seen one marvelous new type of war, that is the pre-emptive variety, how about a second new aspect of war: perpetual war. Hey, come to think of it, I know there is a law limiting the president to two terms, but what about the vice pres? Hoo-ray for perpetual Haliburton-ism!
Believe it of not, I'm a conservative 'extremist', but I'm hardly represented with the republican party as it is. Only one thing makes the attack on Iraq palletable, that he was paying for the suicide bombers in Israel.
Edit to say: I was writing as Steve was posting. I don't know what to do about gas prices, except my boys have been getting interested in alternative energy, and I told them I'd look into getting a permit for a still (from BATF).
And gee, wouldn't it be nice if the above political stuff I wrote was just more silly conspiracy theory stuff?
[ August 15, 2005, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: James Donahue ]
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on August 15, 2005 01:12 AM:
quote: I'm an ex druggie, like really really hard use, and what gets me is that if even I could see it coming...
..well see James, it's all those altered states of perception making you see things again Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on August 15, 2005 06:55 AM:
James, please see my link above - BBC News Article.
quote:Let's talk about fixing the gas problem instead of fixing the blame.
Exactly.
The problem is that all of the refineries in the US are at capacity. No new refineries have been built in roughly 25 years due to the successful efforts of the Environmental Lobby.
No, protecting the environment isn't a bad thing. The problem is with anything is when it goes too far one way or the other. We need to build new refineries.
We also need to open new oil fields that we already know exist.
Right now, with production at full capacity, if anything happens - such as the destruction of an oil platform by Hurricane Ivan or a refinery fire in Texas - we are going to see huge spikes.
We need is less rhetoric and tinfoil hat conspiracy theories. We need to begin building new refineries, expansion of existing ones, and start poking more holes in the ground.
As for other countries, the problem can be more complex. In some, 75% of the price for gasoline is in the form of a tax. For others, its that they too need to build new and expand existing refineries. In others, its the need for a more stable government. All of these add up.
(Revise and extend remarks)
Just wanted to add that we should also continue to look toward new techologies as well. One good thing about the price spikes in oil is that it makes the new techologies more attractive.
At a family reunion yesterday, a lot of the conversation was about a relative's new Prius and how much get-up-n-go it had as well as the MPG.
[ August 15, 2005, 07:29 AM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on August 15, 2005 07:22 AM:
quote:Originally posted by Jon Aston: If I disagree with you does that make me anti-American? I would like to believe that such a viewpoint is a little too simplistic for most Americans to swallow.
quote:Originally posted by Todd Gill: ...what I felt was Jon's delight in bashing the US...
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on August 15, 2005 07:42 AM:
quote:Originally posted by Jon Aston:
Just for the record, Mark, there are plenty of Canadian troops in harm's way in Afghanistan. Have been from the beginning. Canadians didn't (and don't) support your country's war on Iraq - and with good reason, as it turns out. There weren't any weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, no direct links between Iraq and 9/11, etc. You should be angry with your present administration for lying to you and the rest of the American people...not to mention the costs (human and financial) of their policies and decisions.
NAFTA? Don't make us laugh. Read something about the softwood lumber dispute. The U.S. Government doesn't play by the rules unless it suits them.
quote:Originally posted by Todd Gill: I originally responded in a bit of a huff over what I felt was Jon's delight in bashing the US ....and then decided to tone it down a notch...which I think was the prudent thing to do...by deleting that line a couple minutes later.
[ August 15, 2005, 07:43 AM: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]
Posted by Stephen Broughton (Member # 2237) on August 15, 2005 07:54 AM:
quote:Originally posted by Hugh Potter: blimey, i thought it was us brits that whined loudest !!
come over here, spend 95p per litre (4.5L to an Imperial gallon), that'll be about $1.75 per litre, so about $7 a us gallon,
quit whining !
Nah Hugh the Yanks are past masters at whining and they are too busy bitching at each other to take notice of us two, any way serves them right for driving such stupidly large fuel inefficient vehicles, the american male must have his V8 7 litre "penis extension" must be terrible to feel so inadequate Why do you suppose although they only make up 1% of this planets populaton they ignorantly consume 25% of the planets resources, maybe they might take notice when some Chinese company buys out GM
Well if this don't get a response I give up. Posted by Paul Bierce (Member # 5412) on August 15, 2005 08:00 AM:
If anyone thinks that one man, or a small cartel can singlehandedly control the cost of gasoline, think again.
There are enormous market forces at work which contribute to the price of gas.
Granted, some short term influence can be exerted by a few well placed individuals, but this whole notion of the market being manipulated for an extended period by such a group ignores the facts (and complexities) of the global market.
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on August 15, 2005 09:33 AM:
I'm aware of the complexities in refining the stuff, but what gets me is how the mere THREAT of a storm, political change, etc can change the price. The thing didn't even happen yet. I of course could be wrong, but it sounds like grabbing excuses out of the air.
By the way, Steve B., Alot of American women buy those big vehicles too.
Doug, now I finally see the truth, the reason I talk about perpetual this and that is my own perpetual state of flashback..Timothy Leary where are you???
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on August 15, 2005 09:50 AM:
Steve - you've got it backwards: we need those big vehicles to accomodate our big US penis's.
Sorry to hear you guys fit easily into subcompacts.
C'mon...you gotta think that's funny. Hehehehe
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on August 15, 2005 10:39 AM:
For the second time, this statement (made by Steve) is being quoted:
_______________________________________________ "Let's talk about fixing the gas problem instead of fixing the blame." _______________________________________________
To that Glenn said, 'Exactly', and went on to expound on that thought.
But I'd say, 'impossible'. Since gas prices (and a great many things) are not only economically motivated but politically motivated as well. It's all too intertwined to simplistically separate the blame from the remedy. Fixing the cause IS part (if not all) of fixing the problem. At least discussing the 'idea' of it is interesting.
But before Steve made the statement quoted above, he said this:
_______________________________________________ "Once again I ask that you honour the Law Of letterville and refrain from political, religious and other posts that we all know will result in dividing us for all the wrong reasons.
Let's talk about fixing the gas problem instead of fixing the blame."
_________________________________________________
Again, another impossible concept.
We're either gonna to talk about a topic and exhaust all our creative ideas (C'mon, we're Letterheads) OR we can't discuss it at all.
With any topic of discussion there's no 'limits' to relating ideas or debate (other than manners and keeping to the point) and in order to discuss something and actually enjoy it, you gotta have black & white areas of facts, and even perfectly grey areas when it comes information, ideas, concepts, and even opinions.
I would at least note and commend everyone; no childish name calling has happened, and no 'monkeys' have appeared to sling feces even as disagreements occur, and no one has even mentioned getting Chinese food yet . . .
Another very respectful & mature exchange of very interesting comments. So for that at least, thanx.
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on August 15, 2005 11:01 AM:
What's the deal about Chinese food?
Posted by Jim Upchurch (Member # 209) on August 15, 2005 11:19 AM:
Maybe they're charging more for crude oil because they can? People are abitchin but I've never seen more traffic everywhere I go.
Posted by Bobbie Rochow (Member # 3341) on August 15, 2005 11:55 AM:
I recently heard on the news that CHINA is the world's biggest user of oil. Anyone else hear this? If this is true, it is probably all the fuel they are using to run the American manufacturing plants that have moved there. Sad, anyway.
James, I also have the same past as you... but Timothy Leary???
Timothy Leary's dead, no, no, no, he's outside...looking in......
I used to be a BIG MOoody Blues fan. How 'bout you?
Posted by Stephen Broughton (Member # 2237) on August 15, 2005 12:02 PM:
Hey Todd well at least one of you has a sense of humour what the hell is a "subcompact" ???? I thought you guys drove such big cars cos you were so fat you couldn't get in a "normal" sized one? Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on August 15, 2005 12:10 PM:
The only thing that this thread proves at this point is that if we eliminated all the posts that had nothing to do with an actual grasp of the basic economics of the situation,we would only have about 10 posts on here and we would have denied all those who actually have deluded themselves into thinking that posessing a different political viewpoint,living in a different location,or some quick creative use of google actually makes you both smarter and culturally a superior to the others and not a close minded ignorant asshat. Fortunatley,in cases like this peoples actual feelings and personalities do come out and they try to cover with humor their true feelings,so that they keep up the appearance of not actually being a 2 faced double talking meatsack in front of the group so that tommorrow when steve finally realizes he cant trust the usual suspects and some pilers on who dont even have conspiracy theory paranoia and delusionment to back their blind shots from the hip,everyone can pretend to like each other so much it would make an episode of Donny & Marie look like domestic violence and he'll blame himself when he has to lock it and not the long winded jackasses who want to be percieved here more as intellectuals than sign people....then we can have an apologuy thread,a thread of karo syrup cant we all just get along crapola which will carry the place right into the next one of these gems. The thing that stands out most here is we have people pinpointing the cause of every war since 1900 and definitively knowing how both political and economic policy should be handled, yet as long as they've been in the sign buisness they can't find their own fonts nor use the search button to avoid asking repetitive questions,because its easier to blame it all on computers entering the sign industry.
Posted by Stephen Broughton (Member # 2237) on August 15, 2005 12:24 PM:
With relation to cars I drive a Ford Focus TDCi, thats a turbo diesel to you folks in the US, now for some reason Ford USA don't sell any diesel variants of this car???
The base US model has a 2.0litre that has 135bhp and at best gives 32mpg.
My turbo diesel has a 1.9litre engine has 136 bhp and gives 65mpg
Both built by the same company, same design team, yet for some reason you folks in the US get engine performance and economy equal to that of a european car built in the 70's now why is that???
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on August 15, 2005 12:24 PM:
LOLOLOL. Typical-Gavin! Our very own Z entering the discussion to rant about how generally, only a handful of people are actually stating something pertinent to the topic, another handful barely even cognizant of the topic, another handful under the delusion that they are coherent and interesting, and all the rest, full of bull.
Z, I actually think you should write that statement as to be a tad more topically non-specific and simply copy and paste it on every thread that goes into excessive discussion, as it seems to be the only comment you ever make, only when not sharing from your vast knowledge of important and factual paint & solvent information.
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on August 15, 2005 12:25 PM:
quote:Originally posted by Stephen Broughton: Hey Todd well at least one of you has a sense of humour what the hell is a "subcompact" ???? I thought you guys drove such big cars cos you were so fat you couldn't get in a "normal" sized one?
This is coming from a guy in a country that still drives on the wrong side of the road, just to spite all the other European nations who drive on the right.
Make as much fun of us as you like, cause if "we" hadn't left England and beat you up, "we'd" still be in "your" country, and screwing it up even more. HAHAHA.
We're not fat, we're big-boned. Go back to your mushy peas. Posted by Stephen Broughton (Member # 2237) on August 15, 2005 12:29 PM:
By Gawd 2 yanks with a sense of humour im in shock.
what do ya mean "other European nations" we are not european, thats insulting, thats fighting talk chubby!
[ August 15, 2005, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: Stephen Broughton ]
Posted by Myra Grozinger (Member # 327) on August 15, 2005 12:31 PM:
Gavin strikes again, at the heart, bulls eye, dead center.
Have not laughed this hard since the last time he did this.
That goes for each point made. Thread and class dismissed.
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on August 15, 2005 12:37 PM:
Gavin, your observation kinda reminds me of an older one that goes;
Some people in life MAKE S*^* happen. Some WAIT for S*^* to happen. While others just wonder WHAT the hell happened.
Roger
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on August 15, 2005 12:43 PM:
65 miles per gallon?!! Are you serious??
Ok...if that's true....and I don't doubt you, someone needs to open up a can of "whup ass" on some politicos here in the states.
And just so you know, we're not stupid fat Americans....we're storing up valuable energy in anticipation of an Al-Qaeda nu-klee-er strike.
A Ford Focus would be considered a sub-compact (by all but the rental car agencies - - they'd call it a full-size limo just to charge you more).
Steve - how do you haul a sheet of plywood in one of those? And does a shoe-horn come along with the owner's manual and spare tire?
Gavin - I knew you'd make an entry. After mentally inserting paragraphs, I also find that very funny.
You aren't a sign guy are you? I think you're a sign shrink...got any openings?
Either that, or I suspect you're the guy that just unleashed a couple shotgun blasts near the protesters in Crawford, TX.
[ August 15, 2005, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]
Posted by Frank Magoo (Member # 3950) on August 15, 2005 12:44 PM:
[ August 15, 2005, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: Frank Magoo ]
Posted by Stephen Broughton (Member # 2237) on August 15, 2005 12:53 PM:
quote:Originally posted by Todd Gill: 65 miles per gallon?!! Are you serious??
Ok...if that's true....and I don't doubt you, someone needs to open up a can of "whup ass" on some politicos here in the states.
And just so you know, we're not stupid fat Americans....we're storing up valuable energy in anticipation of an Al-Qaeda nu-klee-er strike.
A Ford Focus would be considered a sub-compact (by all but the rental car agencies - - they'd call it a full-size limo just to charge you more).
Steve - how do you haul a sheet of plywood in one of those? And does a shoe-horn come along with the owner's manual and spare tire?
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on August 15, 2005 01:10 PM:
Oh yeah...I saw that in another thread....that's an awesome ride!!
That's some pretty flat land...looks like parts of Ohio.
Regarding mileage...you've peaked my interest...somethings fishy here in Washington.
Posted by Ricky Jackson (Member # 5082) on August 15, 2005 03:21 PM:
Glenn that is some very good reporting! My opinion of Bush? Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on August 15, 2005 06:27 PM:
quote:Originally posted by Ricky Jackson: Glenn that is some very good reporting! My opinion of Bush?
Thanks. Its a good thing Nostradamas has been wrong about a lot of things isn't it.
********
{quote]Originally posted by Sheila Ferrell: To that Glenn said, 'Exactly', and went on to expound on that thought.
But I'd say, 'impossible'. Since gas prices (and a great many things) are not only economically motivated but politically motivated as well. It's all too intertwined to simplistically separate the blame from the remedy. Fixing the cause IS part (if not all) of fixing the problem. At least discussing the 'idea' of it is interesting.[/quote]
Given human nature, I have to agree.
That is why it is so important for us to get educated on how things really function so that politicians and CEO's can't pull the wool over our eyes and so that we can - regardless of political or economic affiliation - be able to tell when they are telling the truth .
With so much misinformation out there, its difficult to do, but it can be done.
Its sad when perception becomes accepted as reality without being tested first.
Being able to face difficulties without looking at them through the tinted lenses of ideology and be honest with ourselves is the first step, IMHO.
.
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on August 15, 2005 06:56 PM:
quote:" . . . it is so important for us to get educated on how things really function so that politicians and CEO's can't pull the wool over our eyes and so that we can - regardless of political or economic affiliation - be able to tell when they are telling the truth .
With so much misinformation out there, its difficult to do, but it can be done.
Its sad when perception becomes accepted as reality without being tested first.
Being able to face difficulties without looking at them through the tinted lenses of ideology and be honest with ourselves is the first step, IMHO."
Well said Glenn!
Al-ritey then, back to sign biz y'all??
Oh yeh, Glenn, thanx for gettin' my name off'a so many last-reply topics. I was feelin' a little weird about that...
. . . . . Aw' DANG! But I've done it again! UH!
Posted by Don Coplen (Member # 127) on August 15, 2005 07:11 PM:
Being the father of a boy in the armed forces, who happens to be stationed in Afghanistan, I find it particularly offensive when the President and the US are disrespected and badmouthed.
It's a free country, and Josh is over there putting his life on the line to help keep it that way, and to allow us all who wish to, the freedom to continue to disrespect and trash our country and leaders.
So, don't hold back interjecting your political view on this signmaker's web forum. But, I'd hope you keep in mind that there are parents here who get a tear in their eye when they read it.
I can tell you one thing. My son IS NOT fighting a war to keep our oil prices low. He's fighting to keep those bastards from coming over here and killing more of US! Believe that or not. I believe it and my boy believes it...and we also believe that our President believes it.
Sorry for the rant. Reading this kind of crap just ****es me off.
Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on August 15, 2005 09:10 PM:
Don, I got alot of respect for you from knowing you on here, and not knowing your son, I also have alot of respect for him and those like him for doing what they believe is the right thing. I decided awhile back to keep my mouth out of these posts cause I get too aggravated and say things that might cause someone grief, but please understand that there are alot of us that dont agree with this president or this war, but still respect and pray for those that are on the front lines. I quit reading anything to do with whats going on in Iraq because I cant bear to see the stories of young americans being killed every day. Ill leave it at that and hope and pray your son comes home soon.
Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on August 15, 2005 09:22 PM:
One other thing, price of 87 octane here jumped to 2.70 per gallon. I talked to a station owner friend of mine today, and he said one tanker full costs him 22,000 dollars. Right now, his markup is basically only paying the bills, and he already had to lay off one worker. More than likely, smaller stations will end up going out of business, especially if the price goes over 3 dollars. Older pumps wont go over 2.99 on their guages, so they have to shut them down.
Posted by Frank Magoo (Member # 3950) on August 15, 2005 09:32 PM:
Well said JohnD,(chuckle everytime I say your name-expecting an answer from another quarter), anyways... I too am biting my tongue, enough so, I deleted my own answer earlier...as one of those in the trenches once, I can say that they/we had no say whatsoever in what we were directed to do...that is the job of the politicians, not well done in my opinion, but theirs nonetheless...the warrior is just a pawn and as he can't be held accountable for the deaths he creates, he also can't be held accountable for operations he is involved in...I pray for our troops everyday and hate the fact they are in harm's way...but, that's what they do...it's a catch 22 situation for them...my prayers are also for bringing them home, let Iraq finish solving it's problems w/o us, we've done enough already...but as long as they are there, I will support THEM and continue to pray for them and possibly some divine intervention...maybe???
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on August 15, 2005 09:49 PM:
Back to the issue of gas prices, I thought this article was interesting. Makes me happy I don't live in the Netherlands.
Posted by Bobbie Rochow (Member # 3341) on August 15, 2005 10:02 PM:
Frank & Don, I totally agree with both of you. I have actually TWICE typed out my opinion on the war, & deleted it & did not post it. I did not want to get slammed for it.
Things were done differently back in WW2 also, I watch a lot of war documentaries on tv. There were protesters back then, too, I was surprised to see. But not like today.
I love my country, & I am so respectful of all the men who have fought to give us this country we have today.
It saddens me to see the women out there, too. I do not agree with women being over there fighting, I feel they should be happy to be women, & they should be kept doing other things like they did in the previous wars. Sorry, no offense, just my opinion, I am old fashioned. Let the men be men & do what they are called to do for us.
I will pray for your son, Don. You must be very proud of him! I have 2 sons, one is 21 & has been in & out of jail, & I don't know if he could join if he wanted to, but the other is 24 & said he would go if he had to. I cannot imagine how you feel, all of you who have sons or daughters in the service. I pray they will all come home safe.
And for the record, no, I do not think this war is all about oil.
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on August 15, 2005 10:09 PM:
Don, I'm sorry if I've been offensive, I should be more clear in these things. At 45, I'm not by a long stretch going to be the first one they want to call to war as a soldier, but when I was younger, I was not disciplined enough for the job. I admire anybody that's together enough not only to keep from being booted out, but to withstand the rigors of combat.
As I said before, there are some things that make this situation palletable. If ever there was a case of multiple motives, I suppose this war in Iraq is one. I'm guessing that even if Bush's motives were right, he had to enlist the help of others to get the strings pulled to get the support he needed. It's those others that shouldn't be involved.
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on August 15, 2005 10:29 PM:
I'd like to say that I drive a few gas guzzlers if thats what you would call them. I own four vehicles and am the only driver of them My 64 Plymouth gets around 10 miles per gallon which is real good for a 400+ horse power car, my motorhome around the same mpg and although I've got a Mercedes sedan which I only use for off roading which is necessary when I have to go home because my Astrovan can't make the 900 foot upward dirt driveway to my residence.
I never knew what Left or Right wingers or liberals meant until I read this post as a friend explained it to me but I do know that the gasoline prices are still less then the price of the 113 octane I used in the Plymouth at 5.50 a gallon.
Ever wonder what gasoline cost in Iran? I think the price went up to almost 40 cents a gallon, up from 28 cents last year, oh well.
Anyone complaining bout the cost of wood or insulation these days?
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on August 15, 2005 10:55 PM:
Frank - thank you for your service to our country.
Don - thanks to your son for his service for our country.
I am very comfortably safe here in my sheltered home thanks to thousands of people I don't even know...protecting here in the homeland and all over the globe. As long as evil exists, I'm happy to know we have a strong, enviable military. Just wanted to say thanks. Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on August 15, 2005 11:43 PM:
Just so our Canadian friends won't feel left out, here's an article about the price of gas just for you.
Also, for anyone who thinks I'm just picking on environmentalists, there is this article from Sacbee.Com. (Use "root" and "password" so you don't have to register)
[ August 16, 2005, 12:06 AM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on August 16, 2005 07:34 AM:
Yes, a huge debt of gratitude to all our military people making, or standing ready to make the ultimate sacrifice with astounding bravery and patriotism.
You can be sure 99% of them understand EXACTLY what their doing & why their doing it.
As a child of a WWII vet, I have a healthy respect for the need and workings of war. Only wish I'd listened even closer to the intense stories my daddy shared.
Mr.Mc:
" . . . .but as long as they are there, I will support THEM and continue to pray for them . . . .
and possibly some divine intervention...maybe???"
Definitley, and, it's already happened. Keep The Faith.
Posted by Don Coplen (Member # 127) on August 16, 2005 09:57 AM:
Here's an email I received this morning from a person registered at this site. It makes me wonder if having real names and contact info here is such a great idea.
edit: I had posted his email flame, but not his name here. But, after going back and reading some of his posts, I decided this asshat isn't even worth getting worked up over.
Having a stranger email ya and call your kid a murderer is not the best way to start a day.
[ August 16, 2005, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: Don Coplen ]
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on August 16, 2005 10:19 AM:
Don,
Unfortunately, some people are just born naturally stupid and get dumber as they get older.
Just ignore him.
Regardless of one's opinion of the war or the reasons behind it, the men and women in the military and their families - Canadian, Australian, Polish, British, Japanese, American and elsewhere - deserve our respect and admiration for their efforts in this difficult situation and nothing less.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on August 16, 2005 12:04 PM:
Glenn - I concur (always wanted to say that).
Don - anyone that would send an email like that is unstable at best, a demon at worst.
I agree, real names can sometimes be a bad thing. I believe that anyone who sends a nasty or contemptuous private message or email regarding a posted topic here, should be fully prepared to see their covert "true" self exposed.
Having contact info readily at hand could conceivably open you up to all kinds of lunatics and stalkers.
I really wish you would have exposed him/her...so people know who they're really dealing with.
Sorry you had to experience that.
Posted by Don Coplen (Member # 127) on August 16, 2005 12:23 PM:
Todd,
That was my first thought. But, after looking back at this asshat's prior posts, I saw that he's already been outted and it's no secret what the "man" is made of, to anyone who has read his posts. He hates America. He hates Americans. And I would guess he isn't fond of the opposite sex.
All I will say for now is that he's from NS, Canada and has only made 8 posts. I tell you that much to rule out most everybody but him, and so that nobody thinks it might be a regular participant here. Just a jackoff hiding being his computer.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on August 16, 2005 12:42 PM:
hmmmmm I better check my email...he might have something waiting for me too.
Posted by Bobbie Rochow (Member # 3341) on August 16, 2005 03:08 PM:
Months ago, i recieved some very nasty emails from someone that fits that description, but i have never seen him post on here with that name. He IS VERY antiamerican. He was referring to a post I had made about the war.
Posted by Don Coplen (Member # 127) on August 16, 2005 05:04 PM:
Well, the dickhead emailed again.
In the meantime, I've received several emails from various 'heads asking if he is Roger Berry from NS, Canada.
I wouldn't have dropped a name, but it appears he's been screwing with a lot of people here. And something needs to be done about it.
Steve, since we must have contact info here, as one of the rules, is there anything that can be done to protect us from this kind of harrassment? I wouldn't think being subjected to this crap would be a requirement of being on this site.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on August 16, 2005 05:32 PM:
Don,
On Steve & Barb's end, about the only thing they can do is ban his ISP address. And, if they have the right script set up, anytime the culprit attempts to view this site, the script can automatically redirect him to another site of S&B's choosing. (Personally, my favorite is the CIA)
As for yourself, the first thing is to simply block him. The other is to contact his ISP and register a complaint. If he is doing this kind of silliness to enough people and they complain to his ISP, they'll enforce their EULA.
Other than that, unless he threatens anyone with physical harm, there isn't much else that can be done except to turn the matter over to Guido and Vinny.
[ August 16, 2005, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: Glenn Taylor ]
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on August 16, 2005 05:38 PM:
Don, I simpathise, and also wanted to tell you that name "roger berry" has come up on other sites as a bad apple, jfyi !
Roger
Posted by Don Coplen (Member # 127) on August 16, 2005 05:45 PM:
I've got him blocked, Glenn. Five emails today. They go straight to the recycle bin now.
Thanks.
Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on August 16, 2005 07:00 PM:
Send me an email dickless
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on August 16, 2005 11:52 PM:
Gavin might be on to something there....(dick-less) hehehe
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on August 17, 2005 12:29 AM:
Bobbie, I think that must'a been the same one who e-mailed me (about a year ago) after I'd started a particular sort-of 'political' post (concerning Rather's fauxpas, (which was eradicated from the BB almost immediately)
But he'd caught the topic just prior. It seems he lurks specifically to confront anyone with patriotism pertaining to even indirect issues of the military.
He e-mailed me a senseless rant mostly full of cussin', first deriding me for posting the topic, then into some anti-american/anti-war blather. I actually wondered if it was some brain-washed 14 or 15 year old kid mimicking the spoutings of some anti-war high school prof.
I replied that I MIGHT be apt to hear him out concerning his veiws if only he could explain himself with some degree of maturity, and make real concerted effort towards relevance to the specific issue, at the very least.
He replied back with much less cursing, but still entirely void of any meaningful or interesting points, most sentences immediately trailing off into extreme ideas based on 'feelings' & opinions of non-existant 'conspiracies, and unprovable accusations, rather than any factual concrete evidence.
At that point, I'll immediately give up on anyone, and employ the SPAM button.
Posted by jack wills (Member # 521) on August 17, 2005 01:40 AM:
Steve,,,,,,,,,,,,
Would you please bring in an asassin to take care of this ongoing thread.
R.I.P.
CrazyJack
Posted by Rovelle W. Gratz (Member # 4404) on August 21, 2005 11:10 AM:
Something I learned from a History show the other day.....2 years ago only 55,000 diesel engine automobiles were sold in the entire US.
With diesel prices higher than Gasoline prices, I don't see any increase likely in the future.
As for myself, I enjoy being high enough from the ground to see what's going on around me in traffic, instead of risking my life and others trying to guess if a truck is barreling down the road toward me when I attemp to pass, or waiting until I back completely out of a parking place before I can see if the way is clear.
I will continue paying a little more for the comfort and safety of a larger vehicle.
Posted by Graham Parsons (Member # 1129) on August 21, 2005 01:00 PM:
Greetings,
I've just read this thread, and would just like to add my thoughts. As a Brit now living in Canada, and having brothers who were in the military, I believe everyone is entitled to their opinion about the political aspects, but those men and women who serve always deserve our utmost respect and gratitude.
Posted by timi NC (Member # 576) on August 21, 2005 02:48 PM:
I'm not one to get politically involved but I have to say something here,....I have a son in the military overseas and I grew up in a family in the gasoline business,....As an artist I chose to become a signpainter not an oil jobber,....
First of all the price of fuel is dictated in the world market by oil futures on wall street and other world markets,not politicians. Greed not politics dictate the price of oil,...lets get real. The anylists can use any political situation they please to suggest the increase in oil prices but all in all you can watch oil futures on the open market and just about set your clock by the increases in a matter of ninety day it takes the oil to get from the off shore ports to the american refineries. During the shipping process the only thing that dictates any extra cost is insurance on sea faring containers and there are no current sea wars going on so that basically is not a factor. Granted political reactions can dictate buying and selling practices, but for the most part greed on the open market in oil futures dictates the cost we see at the pumps.
So the next time you see the increase at the pumps remember to cuss your stock broker,not the president,not the government,not the local oil jobber,not the oil companies,just the speculators on the open commodities market.
So given that,...I suggest you watch the oil futures market,...and adjust your lifestyle accordingly,placing blame where it belongs and using all this "energy" to find a solution.
'nuff said,....
Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on August 21, 2005 03:27 PM:
I for one am glad you did take a change and share your input on this topic Timi !
We seem to be a society "out of ballance, too much greed and selfishness" we all need to look in the mirror and make a couple adjustments now and then.
Thanks, Roger
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on August 21, 2005 04:48 PM:
Timi,
Thank you for posting that, it seems everyone missed my statement about this same thing 2 pages back!!
quote:Originally posted by Mike Pipes: Anyone stop to think the cost of oil probably has more to do with the yahoos on Wall Street trading it up higher and higher, than it does a war?
Sure, war creates fear and uncertainty but it's the frenzied morons on the stock exchange floor controlling the cost.
Then other investors see the prices go up and that just causes more of a frenzy with people trying to get in on the action, which continues driving the price up.
Gee.. it's just like the current real estate market - an artificially inflated bubble.
I get at least one phone call a day from investment firms wanting me to invest in oil - each time it's a different firm. That tells me something, kinda like how there's 1200 real estate agents in this dumpy little desert town I live in.
Eventually, the wheels are gonna break on that bandwagon.
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![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Rolling On The Floor]](graemlins/rolf.gif)
must be terrible to feel so inadequate ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Applause]](graemlins/applause.gif)
