Lately there have been many posts about cut throat pricing, low quality, and generally people getting into the biz because they found a plotter on ebay. Mags at Sam's Club, and signs from this place at the bottom of the screen "signsRus.com"???
How far do you think this will go?
What do you think our business will be like in the next 20 years, and do you think you can stay with it?
Where do you think technology will take us next?
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
Jerry,
I've been doing this for almost fifty years and you know what?
For all that time there were people under pricing - low ballers, and those using cheap materials and generally ruining the business for the rest of us.
Back then anyone could buy a brush and a can of paint and call themselves a sign painter. It hasn't changed much in the last fifty years - just that the tools have become more expensive.
Will I be around another 20 years? I sure hope so because I don't know how to do anything else. Will I still be doing the same thing as I am now? Probably not, but whatever it takes then to make signs I hope to be able to learn it and afford whatever it is that does it.
Or I can always buy a brush and a can of paint. You see I know how to do that because it is in my head (and my heart) and I may be the odd ball character compared to rest of the work force, but I will still be doing what I have always wanted to do. Now, how can you beat a deal like that?
Why worry about tomorrow? It may just never come and then I would have wasted all that time and energy on something that didn't materialize. We will survive. Just develop your design skills and you will be ready for whatever happens. And don't take life too seriously - you'll never get out of it alive.
Posted by Doug Fielder (Member # 803) on :
Ferris Bueller, good quote. I feel that there will be a big energy crunch and force everyone onto the brush and can of paint playing field. I work near a cut-throat painter and well he gets all the work from the truckers, but I get all the quality work. He has been at it for years, but he can't gild and airbrush very well, and has been thrown off many a pinstriping job for being too loose. I get the gilding jobs and restoration jobs, he gets to deal with the cheap truck drivers and racecar owners. Lucky him!
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
I'm excited about my future in the sign business. As we continue to develop new methods and experiment with new materials I learn wonderful new ways of doing things. I'll make good use of the fancy new fangled tools too.
After all these years in the business I feel I have aquired enough knowlege and skill to begin faking my way through pretty good. Don't tell my customers though... some of them already believe I'm a genius and an expert. I'd hate to disappoint them.
As the world and many of the folks who make signs continue to become ever more reliant on the computers to design and make the signs I feel the hand skills will become ever more valuable.
The most important thing is to position yourself in this market carefully and slide into a lucrative niche where there is virtually no competition. That's where we are and I LIKE it!
As the years pass there are fewer and fewer folks with the skills and experience, and the clients who REALLY want this stuff are WILLING to PAY to get the real deal! You won't get to this point doing ordinary though... leave that for everyone else.
Its a WIN, WIN situation. I get to do what I love AND make good money at it too!
-grampa dan
[ August 08, 2005, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: Dan Sawatzky ]
Posted by Hugh Potter (Member # 5748) on :
where do i see the sign industry in 20yrs ?
Answer... with me still in it !
is it not true that we all were new 'upstarts' once who were probably underpricing (intentionally or not) to get some experience and jobs under our belt ?
i've only been at this a year, and only part time until i build up a reasonable income to go full time properly, but i can already see the difference tween what i do, or at least try to do, and those who deliberately undercut at real stupid rates and wh obviously make little money at it in the long run,
i do ebay, i do mail order, i do anything, but i don't do cheap tat (imho) and don't pinch other peoples ideas and undercut them, i try to be original in what i ofer, even if it is on ebay, and so far, my not cheap equipment is beginning to pay off !
right now i want to get my business card on office walls and calls coming in, so do everything i can to get the work, and everything i can to ensure the work is good, i put in a fair amount of effort to make sure the customer is 100% before i cut, and 100% after its installed, i've no complaints yet and really look forward to a career in this industry.
sorry to sound so defensive, and please excuse the pun, but all us 'newbies' ought not to be tarred with the same brush, some of us want to make a living and do a good job in the process !
ta !
Posted by bill riedel (Member # 607) on :
20 years from now I would be 97 if still here, but can you imagine how few of us who can hand letter and guild will be around? The best thing about it is that we will be able to get the best prices for the work. Who else can they get? Many years ago someone called and said he called 8 other sign companys and we were the only one that could do gold leaf. Gold leaf on glass is even more rare. Hang in there, it looks like a bright future to me.
Posted by Paul Bierce (Member # 5412) on :
I anticipate there will be more "self-service" options for consumers be it through websites or at retail establishments.
There will also be more signs made overseas and then shipped here. The only reason this isn't happening a lot now is due to transportation costs.
The sad fact is that the design quality of your average sign is going to be very, very poor.
The good news is that the "masters" of the industry (you know, people who can letter, stripe and paint) will still be in demand by those who know the relationship between cost and quality.
It aint gonna be easy for newcomers though. It's only going to get more and more competitive.
Posted by Paul Bierce (Member # 5412) on :
I anticipate there will be more "self-service" options for consumers be it through websites or at retail establishments.
There will also be more signs made overseas and then shipped here. The only reason this isn't happening a lot now is due to transportation costs.
The sad fact is that the design quality of your average sign is going to be very, very poor.
The good news is that the "masters" of the industry (you know, people who can letter, stripe and paint) will still be in demand by those who know the relationship between cost and quality.
It aint gonna be easy for newcomers though. It's only going to get more and more competitive.
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
Twenty years from now? You won't be able to recognize it. Vinyl and plotters will be ancient history as will be digital prints. What will replace them? Who knows? The industry has changed so much in the last twenty years it's barely recognizable now. Technology is increasing exponentially as it is. Me, I'm sure not worrying about twenty years from now. Worrying about today is enough of a challange! Persuing and holding out for high end work is great if you can pull it off. Things here are so slow, if somebody wanted a pile of fresh cat $hit lettered, I'd jump on it
[ August 09, 2005, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: George Perkins ]
Posted by Jerry VanHorn (Member # 4704) on :
Paul I think the low design quality is the biggest difference we have had in the last decade. I thought it was terrible 5 years ago, but the next genereation sign dope has taken it to new levels. In the past few years I've decided to NEVER quote prices over the phone. I ask the customer to come in and see what we can do - designs sell! If they are serious about buying they will make the trip.
Do you think solvent printers will be on every street corner in the future like vinyl cutters, or do you think the prices will make them more untouchable to the wanna be's?
I still think our futures are bright, but we have to change our strategys for sales. The public perception of a sign maker has gone from Artist to computer operator, with the misconception that we just hit a few buttons and pop out a sign. All shops are not equal and we have to show them they are comparing apples to rotten bananas.
Bill - I hope you pass your craft to someone who truley respects it. I was taught how to guild by an old timer about 10 years ago. He has since retired and moved to Oregon. His father started the shop around 1915 and Ray took over many years later.
Posted by Jerry VanHorn (Member # 4704) on :
Hugh
you are in the minority.
I would guess that for every 20 people that start off in this biz maybe 3 are going to make it past 5 years. I think you are going to be one of them.
I bet that 1 out of twenty know how to use woodworking equipment, prime/paint, or even know what an airbrush or gold leaf is, let alone have good installation practices.
Keep up the good work and the great attitude. I'm sorry if my posts seem to degrade new-comers to the industry, most of them see $$$ signs and don't care about the artistic side of what we do.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
have any of you seen the cd/dvd writer that PRINTS WITH A LAZAR? there is the future....its small scale right now but i see a lazer printer then some sort of colorizer, and wala you got a sign.............and everybody will be able to afford one!!!
Posted by Jerry VanHorn (Member # 4704) on :
quote:Originally posted by old paint: have any of you seen the cd/dvd writer that PRINTS WITH A LAZAR? there is the future....its small scale right now but i see a lazer printer then some sort of colorizer, and wala you got a sign.............and everybody will be able to afford one!!!
with a little holographic scene Posted by ROLAND PINAN (Member # 2724) on :
PAINT PAINT AND MORE PAINT. Learn how to paint,stripe,letter,gild. I still pull more money out of a can of paint than I do any of the other things we do in the shop.There is 2 of us in this shop,we have all the crap alot of shops have including routing tables plotters etc.We still stripe full or in part about 200 plus cars a month.sometimes while out on striping trip I pick up an extra $200.00 hand lettering names on windows at a dealership. Tecy crap is ok but watch people light up when pull out a brush.PAINT PAINT AND MORE PAINT
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
Just a quick side note since there has been mention of paint and a brush.
When I was in Long Beach a few weeks ago, the biggest crowds were not at the plotters and the printers but rather at the demo booth watching Tramp pin striping and lettering.
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Everybody's seen plotters and printers work back and forth before, watching someone sling paint is an enigma these days. Posted by Hugh Potter (Member # 5748) on :
JErry, i hope you're right dude ! i didnt mean to come across overly defensive, but i hear it so much in many different ways !
re painting, i'd love to be able to paint properly, but for now i'll be sticking with the sticky stuff, maybe usng it for pounce patterns and learning that way ! tracing or painting by numbers maybe !
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Well Reading all the post the last few days and adding my own oppions to each and every one of them.
I believe that a end to the (Thick Black Stuff..OIL) is going to happen very soon!
"The Nucular Age"is the next door to cross.
All signage will be Polmer Flex Panels with Solar or Hydro energy.
Computer generated Images.. Store front windows displaying the Company Name and Specials of the week...
Glass Panel exterior billboards with processors to change the info as you need it!!!!!!!!!!
Signs will be wired just like Radio or T.V. to the liking of the peoples needs.
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
I've always believed that the more things change, the more they remain the same.
I think we'll continue to see advances in the technology, we are going to see prices in certain types of services drop. I also think that we'll see price increases for the "old school" paint & brush.
I think the small sign shops will have to evolve and offer more services becoming more business oriented. Its already happened in my shop.
I think we'll see more specialized shops which focus on providing wholesale for the small shops.
And, I think we'll be rolling our eyes wondering what we were thinking by using those "Nike-type" swooshes on so many logos.
.
Posted by Stephen Deveau (Member # 1305) on :
Glenn!!!!
PLEASE!!! PLEASE!!!! PLEASE!!! Think about the Old Dynasty of Life!
Work with the future of life! And the only thing we have is Fushion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think it is time to "Eat Our Potatoes" Now it is time to convert all things to Hydro.. Hydrogen... Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Posted by Alicia B. Jennings (Member # 1272) on :
"Custom printed signs at aisle 5", said the Walmart clerk.
Posted by Roy Frisby (Member # 736) on :
Go ahead and confess, Ray, you are older than dirt. Posted by David Harding (Member # 108) on :
Some things in the sign industry won't change in the next two decades.
Ray will be teasing me about my inability to hand letter and Roy will still be trying to sell those holes.
Posted by David Fisher (Member # 107) on :
Teams of interstellar starwriters cruising around in extravagantly decorated galactic pick-ups will strategically explode suns in order to spell out Pepsi or Nike in order to create an enduring and globally visible advertisement for years at a stretch in full daylight. Lesser paid satellite writers will be stuck installing humble fusion powered planetary based billboards for the travelling public that can't afford a 1st class cabin where a death support system is convenient tax dodge.. Meanwhile back on the sewer previously known as Earth, vinyl jockeys have mutated to a point at which they can determine the difference between nephew artwork and an assclown jamboree (Refer: Assclown Jamboree conflagration Oct 13/06/09 (UK - Arsefest) Conditions change rapidly as vinyl jockeys turn to canabilism in order to survive,horror stories of semi-alive zombies abound. Pictures at 11:00.
(Spot the influences)
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
Mr.Ray hit the nail on the head as usual.
I made the statement before I came to letterville, and several times since I've been here; I'm not intimidated by the plotter & vinyl. It only made a lot of people want it 'HAND lettered' even more. Selling vinyl is as simple as marking up the material, to include labour time. Selling hand-lettering is as simple as marking-up my time.
Can't tell you how many times I've heard the statement, "I don't want those stick on letters, I want it HAND-painted."
As for these concerns you have Jerry:
_________________________________________________ "Lately there have been many posts about cut throat pricing, low quality, and generally people getting into the biz because they found a plotter on ebay. Mags at Sam's Club, and signs from this place at the bottom of the screen "signsRus.com"???
Do you think solvent printers will be on every street corner in the future like vinyl cutters, or do you think the prices will make them more untouchable to the wanna be's?" _________________________________________________
Anytime people try to go into (any kind of) business where they think they can 'make a killin', they usually stray away from producing even a good or decent product. They start scrimping on materials, buy low and sell low. They typically get bored or disillusioned and move on to the next thing.
By nature these people are not sign makers, or cell phone salesman, or used-car salesman, or water-purification specialists (the list of get-rich-quick-schemes goes on) & on... but may of these folks are sincerely wanting to be self-employed business owners, only one problem , they are under the grand delusion that owning your own business makes you rich fast, allows you unlimited freedom, means less hours, gives you some sort of community esteem, and best of all, personal esteem from not having 'a boss-man'.
(Again, Jerry, look around, this stuff happens in more feilds than sign biz); As soon as people realize being self-employeed is MORE work & hours than punching a clock and making money actually requires intense thought and even business skills, and every body you make a sign for is your 'boss'..... right away most people bale, and others go the 'cut-throat' prices route pretending that they are being 'competitive'.
These people fizzle away pretty quick, although you have your die-hards, determined to save-face and make their business work, after not adding for labor, or failing to mark-up material, they realize virtually no profit and finally throw in the towel too, all the while amazed at how anyone makes a living doing this...
I don't have time to count the buisnesses that changed their product from signs-to-water purifying devices-to-Amway-to-cell phones . . . . .I'm not sure how they pay for the rent on the space. Atcually they often bale-out leaving a trail of debt.
Franchises are just what they are. At least they provide for a somewhat more serious-minded business person. To appreciate franchise sign shops, I love to use restaurant analogies.
Like Mc'Ds and BK, don't expect a whole lot of diversity, creativity, 16 0z. steaks, or high prices. Like any business, a cheaper version can be a welcome asset. I LIKE having somewhere to send customers who only want a 'less-than $6 a-person meal'. I wanna make room for other customers, the same ones who stand in line waiting at Red Lobster to get a $20-$30 a-person meal. Or better yet, how 'bout targeting a customer-base like the ones who make reservations to dine for $200-300 a-person!
Still keeping up with the analogies?
Aside from all that business-tech, there's STILL the need and demand for quality. Something Mc'D's and BK don't even TRY to go for when compared to fine dining. When you choose to eat fast-food, that's it. You're just eating, usually, and this is a key analogy; IN-A-RUSH. Right through the drive-thru, or either you eat-in quickly to get out of that bright-uncozy and uncomfortable seating area. Ya gotta have it and gotta grab it quick. You don't care.
But when it's time to really eat out, you don't just 'eat', you choose to 'dine'. Preferably at a nice restaurant where you are either personally familiar with the food or it has come highly recommended, with an atomsphere that makes you relax, because of the personal service, because you want to experience a quality meal for your money and your well-being.
As many kinds of restaurants as there are, and people as there are keeping them open & thriving, I believe there's just as many kinds of people looking to satisfy their sign needs.
Only one bad meal at a restaraunt and you usually won't eat there again, right?? Even if . . . especially if, it was a really cheap meal. UGH! You got what you paid for. Some people just have no talent with food. It NEVER looks like the picture, huh?
Same thing with signs. Some of these people trying to go into the sign business and dealing cut-throat, are gonna get the kind'a customers they deserve. The customers who are looking for dirt-cheap signs are gonna get just what they deserve by buying cheap. Neither part of this consumer process cares about 'what it looks like'. Customers who DO care about the end product may make the mistake of trying to save money there, but only once.
In the meantime, the rest of us are out here striving to do our very best and producing the real deal. Often creating unique signs as well as even mundane necessary signage AND PRICED at this economies PROFITABLE rates. Most REAL business people or other customers understand and appreciate this fact.
On the other hand, UNLIKE restaurant biz, I don't see too many franchised or 'street-corner-newly-opened-ultimately-only temporary' Dr. offices, or welding shops, or attorneys. We still have very important 'trade-skills' uniquely ours that require years of 'study' and practice.
It WILL pay off, Jerry. It does pay-off, everyday.
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