Im having problems with my 1shot skimming over a lot.and when the can gets down 2thirds or so its turning to jelly witch makes it pretty much unuseable. i know the high summer heat here in fla has a lot to do with it. any one have some sugestions on this? thanks.
Posted by Murray MacDonald (Member # 3558) on :
Stan, I,ve tried all the tricks, CO2, breathing in the can, turning itupside down, etc.etc.etc....nuthin' works. Rather than waste time trying to restore that last bit, it's cheaper for me to turf it and start fresh. Sometimes I thin it WAY down and use it for stain. Sorry to not be of more help. MUR
Posted by Jill Marie Welsh (Member # 1912) on :
Had a can of black. Skin forming is nothing new....I just break it and pour. This was just as you describe...jelly. Dunno why, it was not that old, and I never add things to the can? Maybe try buying it in quarter-pints. Love....Jill
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Hahahaaa...kinda hard to use up those gallon cans of 1Shot...unless you are a Walldog or Billboard painter. If it is not a color that i use often, I simply buy smaller cans.
[ July 21, 2005, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: Si Allen ]
Posted by William DeBekker (Member # 3848) on :
I have had some luck by pouring a thin layer (1/4") of paint thinner over the top when I finish with the paint. But I rarely do that anymore I'm just like evryone else. Poke a hole in the skin and go on.
Posted by Gene Golden (Member # 3934) on :
I ALWAYS cut the entire skin off the top, and then scrape the oils that form on the bottom of the piece of film, back into the can. Each time you do otherwise, you are losing thinners, binders, oils, etc. that are necessary for the paint to remain useable.
Poking through and pouring is not allowing you to thoroughly mix the paint and will result in poor quality paint.
I also NEVER mix any thinners in the can. I will occasionally add a thin, "sacrificial layer", of VM&P Naptha to the top, like William. I do this usually if I am definitely going to be using the paint in the next couple of days. That way, there is not one of those "partial" skins left on top. Otherwise, I just let it skin up and seal itself.
Posted by John Smith (Member # 1308) on :
Stan, I think we all have problems with paint skinning over. The only time I had the "jelly" problem was when I returned USED paint back to the can after it had been tempered with thinning agents. (I now know better). Have you been doing this as well?
And as Gene says.... "ALWAYS cut the entire skin off the top, and then scrape the oils that form on the bottom of the piece of film, back into the can. So you won't lose thinners, binders, oils, etc. that are necessary for the paint to remain useable."
and NEVER return used paint back to the can.
[ July 21, 2005, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: John Smith ]
Posted by John Largent (Member # 4606) on :
Turn your can upside down when you put it back on the shelf . . once over a third of the can is used, it will skin over . . it takes that much air to do it, if you don't use certain colors frequently.
I use 8 oz Bottles and store them upside down, in the colors I use frequently . . the bottles seem to be porous enough to allow outgassing over a long period of time, so I only use bottles in certain colors . . . I buy 'em from Lazerlines, incidentally
Posted by Frank Magoo (Member # 3950) on :
When first purchased, regardless of size, I remove lid and using an awl, I put a hole in bottom of trough for lid on the quarter(4holes), stir it well to make sure it's throughly stirred, then recap can. At this time I take small, self-starting, short-shank, license plate screws(preferably phillips heads), just inside of previously mentioned trough on lid, I install this screw, bottom it out once and back if off about 1/2 turn. From now on, when you need paint, shake can real well, remove screw and using bottom of can like a button, "pump" out however much you need, reinstall screw when done, end result, can will not scum over, period, providing paint to the end of the can. It doesn't make sense to me to throw away good paint, scumming used to cost me over 5 or more gallons of paint a year, overtime, it eats up alot of profit...funny too, an old signwriter showed me that eons ago...plastic bottles suck!!!!period!!!!!
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
I really don't have the skinning problems no matter what weather I'm in, but simple maintainance of keeping your paint box in a cool dry place can almost always save it from skinning. For the past 30 or so years I've used Sapphire Paint-Sav and my paints never skin.
Then again all the tips in the world can't help another person if they don't use them. Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
Havn't tried the screw method, but I always remove the whole skin. I use an artist's palette knife, sometimes sharpened on the edges. It bends and conforms to the edge of the can.
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Anyone listening to Joey?
Posted by Bobbie Rochow (Member # 3341) on :
Hey Joey! I got some of that stuff here in my shop! That is funny! I just wondered if what you posted was what I have under my table, & there it was! My old sign painter friend (incidentally, he saved my life when I was 8 yrs. old, resucitating me) gave me a can of it YEARS ago, & I had forgotten what it was for, for some reason! It tells you on the can HOW to use it, but not what it DOES. I'm gonna use this stuff now!
By the way, where do i get more when I run out? Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
Bobbie, I don't believe Sapphire is still in business but do believe that Paint-Sav can still be bought and still on many sign supplier shelves as of today. I am lucky, I got about 10 pints or what I call, a lifetime supply.
On another note, people either follow the wrong directions or their heads are so far up in the air that they feel there's nothing else left to learn and I truly believe that learning is an everyday process. I don't care whether you've been in business for 30 years or 30 days, remembering instructions from your mentors in the past is one sure way to get into trouble in this day and age since most materials and paints aren't the same. One thing you can be sure of is that all paint must be stored in a cool dry place.
I'm in a torrid mood because of a rash on my forearm and hope it doesn't interfere with work I have in Oregon this following weekend, oh well
I just had to add this from a sign or pinstripe magazine some years back. One of the dumbest things I've ever read in my life was someone who said that he always carries his trusty palette knife to cut the skin from a can of paint. I laughed out loud because I take things like that to mean that that person has just plain given up. There are so many tricks and tips anyone can learn if they just tried something different and experimented on their own once in a while. Another thing is that after seeing so many sign painters in my life, I promised myself I'd never let my paint cans skin, use a friggin milk crate as a kit or work from a TV cart
[ July 21, 2005, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: Joey Madden ]
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
I just use latex.
Sorry for being a smart mouth. I have the same problem with enamels, but don't use as much now as I did years ago. I probably throw out more than I put on signs. But then I don't paint on vehicles.
Joey seems to have hit upon the solution.
Posted by Alan Johnson (Member # 2513) on :
1. Buy ONLY old 1-shot ,if possible. 2. Open the can, add a few drops of Paint Save ,stir it up . 3. pour it into a 8 oz. CLEAR PLASTIC bottle which does not allow the gasses to escape. Maintain AJ
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
At Julians first Pinhead BBQ at his home I gave everyone a can of Paint-Sav. ( circa 1990 )
Posted by Elaine Beauchemin (Member # 136) on :
I don't open any can any more. I put 2 screws at oposite borders of the lid. when I pore 1 let the air in the other let the paint out. no more skin ever since. Bonus I get to use the paint till the last drop. I have cans of poster paint with the same...no more problem of hard bottoms.
good luck!
É
Posted by Louie Pascuzzi (Member # 1373) on :
I always use the screw method. I spent too many years of breaking through skins and wasting half a can of 1 shot. I use screw eyes in the holes that I make with a nail. I squeeze the paint out into 3oz. bathroom cups. The unwaxed ones. It makes it easy to mix colors also, just a little squirt of this and a little squirt of that.
Posted by Frank Manning Jr. (Member # 2699) on :
a couple of suggestions.... get a piece of 4 to 6 mil thick plastic sheeting and using the lid from the can, cut circles out of the material. After yor done mixing and using the paint, lay the disc you cut on top of the paint and seal up the lid. The plastic disc keeps out the air so that no skin forms. When you need to use that color again remove the plastic skin and mix and use the chosen color. If your careful you can reuse the "skin" or pop in a new one.
In reference to Alan Johnson's comment about using "Clear" plastic bottles.... the type of bottle that he suggested and that you are looking for is a PET type plastic. It doesn't emit as much plasticizer and therefore takes much longer to "gel" your paint in the bottle. The bottles are a little harder but can still be squeezed. They also won't "suck down" due to the gelling .
Posted by Jill Marie Welsh (Member # 1912) on :
Frank, you are a true jem. Thanks for posting that. I have a can of Paint-Sav but I always forget it. And Joey I do keep my paint in a cool, enclosed paint cupboard. If only Sapphire would still be in business....sigh... I am gonna try the screw method. Always thought the bottles looked like a good idea till I noticed that everyone's that I saw at meets were all squeezy-looking. Love....Jill
Posted by Stan Yates (Member # 3176) on :
Thanks to every one for there input,Some good sugestions. i wonder if there is another product like paint-sav since it seems to be hard to find?
Posted by Steve Thomas Greer (Member # 4566) on :
Hey Crew we use One shot by the gallon. We buy the pour spouts tops which fit on the top of the gallon cans that you can get at Home depot. Iam still trying to source out ones for the Quart cans my life would be even better.
As for the Squeeze bottles that Frank was mentioning we use them as well they work great. You can get them from Marj at Canadian Sign crafters at 1800-663-9753
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
Stan, the paint skin being discussed by everyone at this point in your topic, which forms on paint is entirely different from the 'jelly' you initially described.
Paint that turns to jelly won't even form a paint skin, but it does form lumpy-weird 'jelly' skin, and the 'paint' no longer exists at that point either . . . just a mass of tainted . . .jelly.
Paint will only turn to jelly when it sits for a while after strong solvents have been added to it, like laquer thinner for example...
Once it's at this point, it's garbage. Nothing will 'fix' it or thin it. It's a congealed mass of the oil-base of the paint. The colourant is usually at the bottom hard as a rock.
If you must thin paint, thin the amount you want to use separately from the paint in the can. Posted by Murray MacDonald (Member # 3558) on :
Okay, I am properly chastised (Thanks, Joey).I only get One Shot in half pints, some colours are used infrequently, and I'm not really bothered by the skin, just cut it out, scrape it off and stir like hell. Way back I made the mistake of putting thinned paint back in the can...jelly. Don't do that no more! By the way, has anyone noticed that the new 199-L smells just like Nazdar screen ink?What gives? MUR
Posted by Ricky Jackson (Member # 5082) on :
I'd do exactly as Gene Golden said. My vinyls are skinning over when they've been on the shelf too long, you know, the ugly colors. Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
I think alotta people missed the message in this....its not about joey chastising,its frustration he sees by recommending the same thing over and over for years here only for people to refuse to listen or not believe him b/c its not the person they want to answer the question......its not as much throwing the skin away as it is about keeping the material in the condition you bought it in. 99% of this problem occurs because people get paint in the can lid and dont clean it out,or instead of a $1 can opener they pry the lids off with knives,forks,spoons,screwdrivers or anything else within arms reach radius and they damage the rim that way,or instead of carrying a small $3 deadblow hammer to close can lids they beat em with their hands,shoes,step on em,turn em upside down and smash em into the ground and wonder why they never get a good seal after that.......well no sh*t sherlock. Everyone forgets that losing the solvents thru evaporation,binders ets affects the end qualities of the material like longevity,coverage,mixability etc but will toss that right out the window and blame paint failure on the lack of lead. if enamel gels that badly throw it away but its not that uncommon in this heat if you get some evaporation along with it...some is bound to tell you the eye of newt concotion they use to reconstitute it,just throw it away.
Posted by Bill Diaz (Member # 2549) on :
The jelly thing is different from skinning -- it sounds like what happens to Penetrol after it coagulates. The old Liquidseal used to do that, and I think in time the 1 Shot 6000 reducer does that as well. If you mixed 1 of those into your paint and then dumped it back in the can, that would explain the jelly factor. If not ignore what I just said and have a most wonderful weekend.
Posted by Frank Manning Jr. (Member # 2699) on :
I agree with Bill Diaz.... The 1Shot 6000 has a flow enhanser added to the solvent base...that's why it looks yellow in the can and will start gelling right before your eyes. Chromatic's Chromaflo & Edge are similar. These products work very well for what they were designed to do.Don't use these products in paint that you are going to put back in the can. If you need to add something I suggest using 1Shots 6002 High Temp Reducer. The low temp flashes off too fast. The 6002 is strictly solvent based on warm weather use...It's like adding "retarder" to your paint....and use SMALL amounts only. A little goes along way.
Posted by Manuel Rodriguez (Member # 3930) on :
I always do the 2 hole method with the self taping screws for metal buildings 'cause they have rubber groumet type washers to seal the hole. I also keep all my pint size cans in a big igloo ice chest to keep tne temp some what controlable winter/summer , it also works as a counter top when needed.
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
Many times I've opened a can at a moment of need and found it starting to gell and addes a small amount of laquer thinner and strained it and this brought it back into service.
Posted by WILLIAM BETZ (Member # 3732) on :
Sometimes you can use Marbles. When the can is just above 1/2 full, add some marbles to raise the level of paint to help minimize the amount of air.
kevin betz
Posted by Alan Johnson (Member # 2513) on :
Hey Frank , should I say something about the #199 ? never mind , remember what happened last time ? Danm Messengers! I wonder what it looks like with their heads in the sand.
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
please do say something! i wanna know of any funkiness! and for those of you that use the "screw method"(i love that)lol....i know it sounds stupid but could you please just snap a digital pic and post it...i just wanna see...so i do it right...thanks!
Posted by Frank Manning Jr. (Member # 2699) on :
OK Alan...considering all the complaints about the 199L black, 104L Red,and some other colors that I'm still hearing about (considering that today is exactly 1 year since I was "downsized" out of the company) my suggestion is that when you have problems with 1Shot products, you need to call the factory (219-949-1684) and talk to the powers to be. They need to know about the depth and scope of the problems (they can't fix what they don't know is broken )....AND BE HONEST about what you do with your paint, what you mix in with it, how you apply it. After that, it's up to 1Shot to make the difference. I have no official ties to the company anymore. In order to make a difference, the artists who use the product need to contact the manufactures and let them know what's good and bad....especially the bad so that adjustment can be made. If the manufactures don't act, then each artist has a decision to make about using that specific product anymore. Talking and complaining to each other doesn't really get the required info to the right people. Talking to ANYONE other than the manufacturer is just spinning your wheels....No matter what the product line ....paint, HDU, software, etc. There are other companies out there who make good similar or alternative products.
[ July 26, 2005, 10:57 PM: Message edited by: Frank Manning Jr. ]
Posted by Frank Magoo (Member # 3950) on :
Frank;
Hella place to say hi, but, HI!!!(ya ol'fart) Hope to see you up close again someday my friend, till then, it's good to see that you're still above dirt and mean as ever...
Frank Posted by Alan Johnson (Member # 2513) on :
Well you've got the number , go to it . AJ
Posted by Stan Yates (Member # 3176) on :
I've taken my drill and converted about half my colors to the screw eye method,seems to work pretty good .but some colors like silver,dark green need to be stired just before using so im hold off on all colors wish someone would make little spouts like they used to have for oil can in the old days.
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
well, Frank Manning is gone and Joey Madden is still here, ain't that a kick in the head Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Interesting. This thread is a year old, yet the same topic came up what, just a couple weeks ago? Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
The colors that get used the most - being black and white - get put into plastic ketchup bottles. They work better than any other type. Other colors used fairly often - like fire red, dark blue and ivory - get the screw in the can method. Everything else pretty much stays sealed til it's used. I'd like to be perfectly organized and ALWAYS have the proper can opener, hammer, etc. on hand, and ALWAYS remember to add paint-save and to put the screw back in the can. But hey, I'm just one of those stumblef*ck sign painters who carries extra stuff to a job in a milk crate. Guess I'll never be a hero to Joey or Gavin... Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Cam......you can be my hero....if you want to
[ July 11, 2006, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: Si Allen ]
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
If you are going to use the screw method, drop a couple of marbles or bearing balls into your can and you can "swirl" them around to stir your paint. I was never comfortable with the idea of using the screws untill I figured out how to mix the paint.
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
Christ, Si, that's a scary thought...
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
and when i grow up cam i wana be just like you....youre my hero.......hehehehehe
Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
quote:Originally posted by Cam Bortz: The colors that get used the most - being black and white - get put into plastic ketchup bottles. They work better than any other type. Other colors used fairly often - like fire red, dark blue and ivory - get the screw in the can method. Everything else pretty much stays sealed til it's used. I'd like to be perfectly organized and ALWAYS have the proper can opener, hammer, etc. on hand, and ALWAYS remember to add paint-save and to put the screw back in the can. But hey, I'm just one of those stumblef*ck sign painters who carries extra stuff to a job in a milk crate. Guess I'll never be a hero to Joey or Gavin...
You're right,you will never be a hero to me for any reason at any time....sorry you feel that it undermines and threatens your position of self appointed importance in and to the sign industry/letterhead movement that someone else besides yourself and your accepted circle may have some knowledge or contribute something.....but thats life and I suppose noone could ever hold as much relevance to either this forum or the sign business as you apparently feel you can,but thats what make you you,and your doorways 9ft across. The burden that this must place upon you has got to be tremendous,and its a good thing you shoulder this burden instead of forcing it on mere mortals....the accompanying stress would explain why you felt the need to reanswer and drop a dig into a year old thread.
Posted by W. R. Pickett (Member # 3842) on :
WHAT A JERK.
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
Tell you what, Gavin. When I aspire to be hero to a car-paint salesman with a plotter in his garage - or to anyone else for that matter - I'll let you know.
I'm not one of these people who comes in here complaining about paint, what it has or doesn't have in it, how long it lasts, or any of the other usual nonsense, if only because if and when I have a question about paint, I take it to people who know the answers and know what they are talking about. What I see here are generally a lot of uninformed opinions, speculations, guesses, and pet theories; along with sideline sniping at how sign painters mis-use products. So for the most part I stay out of these discussions. Nor do I generally bother with what you have to say, Gavin - even though I tend to agree with most of it, I take issue with your condescending attitude and insulting tone of imagined superiority. I don't brag and don't need to; I paint more signs - as in hand-lettered, with brushes - in a month, than most people here do in a year. So like I said, sir, when I think I need either your approval or notice or anything else, I'll ask. As to your opinion of me, hell, that and a buck and a half will by me a coffee and a donut.
Are we clear?
Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
double post
[ July 13, 2006, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: Gavin Chachere ]
Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
I edited one...wheres the other?
Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
Oh well lets try again....No,we're not clear. Mostly because you don't bother with anything I say nor care about my opinion,yet you took the opportunity to take a potshot at me in a post thats a year old like a jealous little child. You have a problem with me Cam for the reasons I posted above,and the fact that you you feel the need to drop in " I take it to someone who knows" makes that pretty clear........so you just keep right on believing that the only thing I could ever be is a "car paint salesman with a plotter in his garage" lol if thats what gets you thru a day. If there was ever an award for someone with a condescending attitude and insulting tone of imagined superiority, you would win it hands down......there simply could be noone who charges as much,paints as much,is as talented,deals with more morons,or takes the opportunity to tell steve at times both how to run this place and in a roundabout way who and what kind of content belongs here,and we know these things because you've never wasted an opportunity to tell us all your very self. Ironic that someone who paints more than anyone else(yet doesnt brag ) has plotter and an Edge....hope its not in your garage.
Posted by jake snow (Member # 5889) on :
Can't we all just get along?
I have a dream.....
Now I know why Cam posted his post.
Cam lighten up, Gaven more so.....
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
Just to let you all know.
I and a few others who post here personally visited Gavins place of business, and saw some of his work. His work is as good many here so there is no need to insult or gouge or demean what he does. Using subtle negative terms with smile face to make it all better does not work to make it a joke. Smile faces do not make it all better.
Just because Gavin's passion is knowing paint better than anyone here does not make him any less talanted. It is sad some feel threatened by the fact someone is an outspoken and a knowledgable expert on commercial coatings.
His place of bizz was not a garage. He is not a bargain basement cutter operator doing the low ball deal. His place was a large enough commercial building housing more than one successfull business. There was a sign shop, a paint store, and a couple other projects going on in which I had no interest. Over all his place grossed well into six figures supporting several familes. All of us who pay several employees know what it takes to pay them. It cannot be done on $100 grand a year..
He is not a "car paint salesman" trying to hype the latest gimick. He is a succesful busniess man. He is well known in the area as "the man" to goto with any coating problem
I said his building 'was' because all he had left after the storm is a junk yard. He lost hundreds of thousands. Very few of us here have ever experienced such a complete loss. So few of us will never know the toll of that complete loss both materially and spiritualy
And finally, none of his replies, and that is what they are,, replies,, would not be posted if a potshot was left unshot.
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Somewhere in the dim recesses of time this started with a QUESTION ABOUT PAINT TURNING INTO JELLY.
As Frank Manning mentioned, telling the folks at One Shot is the first step. Without our DIRECT input, all the bytching in the world isn't gonna change a thing.
Back in February, I had the chance to spend the weekend with One Shot's reps in Atalanta and did discuss some of the problems I both had experienced and read about here on the BB. Not only were they informative, but genuinely concerned about the changes that needed to be made to improve their product.
At Mass Mayhem, One Shot/Spraylat's Matt Fitzgerald was in attendance and there were a lot of exchanges and new information going in both directions. 2 new colors premiered there and Matt spend a lot of time informing everyone that the problematic colors we hear the most about (black, bright red, maroon, kelly green, etc) had been reformulated.
There's still a number of people who are quick to say "buy the old stuff".... HOW THE HELL YA GONNA DO THAT? IT"S ALL GONE!!! One Shot's old formulas went away years ago and if you find any sitting on a shelf at a suppliers, you can bet dollars to donuts it's no good any more. Self life....'nuff said. Take this from someone who has tried shaking a 6 year old can of kelly green and seen what's in the can when you open it. Junk.
One Shot is now shipping the new formula and colors, and I've been told they are clearly marked to show it.
Is it better? I've had a chance to really dig into some of this stuff for a while. Personally, I feel the improvements are there regarding drying, coverage and even the brilliance of the colors. A lot less "snot" than before. But, anyone who's been in this line of work for a while knows, the real test is time. How it holds up, and under what conditions, is the benchmark.
And for what it matters, Cam, Gavin, Joey, Bill D, Framk Manning, AJ, Si, and many others here have forgotten more about paint that most people are gonna learn in a lifetime. I've had the HONOR of having spent time with nearly every one of them at meets or on the phone and am better for having done so.
Rapid
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
Hold on a minute. If two or three of you feel a need to constantly bump heads, please do it via email or some other private means. Take it outside and give the rest of us a break.
![[I Don t Know]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
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)....AND BE HONEST about what you do with your paint, what you mix in with it, how you apply it. After that, it's up to 1Shot to make the difference. I have no official ties to the company anymore. In order to make a difference, the artists who use the product need to contact the manufactures and let them know what's good and bad....especially the bad so that adjustment can be made. If the manufactures don't act, then each artist has a decision to make about using that specific product anymore. Talking and complaining to each other doesn't really get the required info to the right people. Talking to ANYONE other than the manufacturer is just spinning your wheels....No matter what the product line ....paint, HDU, software, etc. ![[Group Hug]](graemlins/grouphug.gif)
There are other companies out there who make good similar or alternative products.![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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