Has anyone ever been to the 3M plant where vinyl is made? That would be a great place to visit.
Posted by jack wills (Member # 521) on :
No but vinyl was born as a striping item for all kinds of vehicles and marine products and some aircrft applications as well. I have been to the Arlon, plant a few times and watched the process in action. They start with a series of colored pellets and different mixtures to create off colors. It seems like the magical creation but reallty it's boring.
CrazyJack
Posted by Alicia B. Jennings (Member # 1272) on :
Man, I would love to talk to their chemists. Ask them how they get the colors. How does it all start. How does the adhesive get on there? What type of machines are used to cut all them straight rolls of vinyl. I would like to see how Signgold is also made. I am really fasinated by these things.
Posted by Jill Marie Welsh (Member # 1912) on :
....I'd rather watch paint dry! Sorry, I couldn't resist. Love....Jill
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
I'm with you Jill, I'd rather watch an old master hand beat gold than to see how sign gold is made but I can respect Alicia's interests. I think any process that is a true process in manufacturing can be boring to watch at some point.
Posted by Jake Lyman (Member # 3280) on :
When I go to look at a job in a factory somewhere I usually end up spending an hour gettin a tour of how the place works and how whatever it is they make is made, I always find it interesting. If I had to spend a lot of time there (like an employee) I would get bored but I always like to see how things are made. I was fascinated when I saw plastic extrusions coming out of a machine the first time, they start as the little colored pellets also.
Posted by Erik Gastelum (Member # 5341) on :
I thought somone was planning to giving birth on top of vinyl when I saw this thread.
My edit was to say wow, we have some core sign peeps here ready to birth their children into the sign world
[ April 29, 2005, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: Erik Gastelum ]
Posted by Randy Campbell (Member # 2675) on :
Alicia have you seen the television show "How it's Made" terrific show.They want you to e-mail or write in and give your sugestions on what you want to see.Go for it.Randy Posted by Don Coplen (Member # 127) on :
I think the only thing wrong with vinyl has been how it gave birth to tens of thousands of hacks to the business. There were always hacks, but befoe vinyl, they were few (or at least much fewer) and didn't stand a chance of winning a bid on more than an occasional No Parking sign. Thank God above for Letterheads movement, the last life preserver to quality sign work in the industry.
Posted by jack wills (Member # 521) on :
The machines are like they have in the newspaper plants kind of. They have big vats of hot vinyl which is spread out thinnly and it coats the release liner which already has the adhesives and its rolled thin through a system of rollers and the edges are trimmed at the end. The width of rolls are then cut and boxed to specific lengnths. I saw this during the time that I had just invented RAPID TAC, and had a few visits with them at ARLON, after I sold my shares to the major investor. That was back in the late 80's.
CrazyJack
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
I'm just relieved to learn that no baby Vinyl's are killed to make the stuff.
Seriously. Before Steve the sign guy, I was Steve the wire guy. For several years I worked at Canada Wire and Cable. First job was running the extruder that puts the pvc or vinyl insulation on the bare wire.
My last job there was actually making the pvc itself. It was a 2 man job in those days, but these days one guy with a computor runs the whole operation.
Raw materals such as clay, lead powder, oils and other plastifiers are trucked in and stored in various silos. There are all differents grades of vinyl. Depending on the order, we would program a recipie and bring the various ingrediants together into a giant mixer.
Before mixing, the future vinyl looks much like a doughy mess. After about 3 minutes of mixing, the whole mess magically turns into a powdery product resembling flour. At that point, the mixing process is over and the raw pvc is drained downstairs to a special extruder.
The extruder is basically a huge screw revoving in a heated barrel. This extruder mixed the raw pvc and formed a product we called "dog turds." Sorry, but that's erxactly what they looked like.
These turds go through a second extruder where they are forced through a die much like like the pasta making process. A blade chops the extruded plastic into small pellets that are blown into bins ready to be used in the making of vinyl products.
Making signs is much more fun.
Posted by Don Coplen (Member # 127) on :
That's skeery, Steve!Seems we walked the same path in more than one way.
I worked at Essex wire for exactly 90 days. I was the guy at the end of the extruder that caught the coils of cable as they came out the end.
Most unpleasant memory was that testing for continuity. Shocked myself on a regular basis. Ya had to hold the coil, touch both ends to the electric and make the light light up. That the coils were heavy, and coming out continuously (ya had to keep up with the machine), it wasn't difficult at all to get a shock.
I wasn't bummed out about not getting past the 90 probation period. It was a union shop and during a presidential election year. Republicans aren't very welcome in a union shop...unless they keep their mouths shut and bite their tongues when their dues go to the other party.
Sorry, I forgot to write in my previous post how that fit with the topic. My point was that I'd rather see the death of vinyl than its birth.
[ April 29, 2005, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: Don Coplen ]
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
This is getting REALLY scary now.
The job I had as I started going into the sign biz was wire drawing at New England Electric Wire Co. No, I didn't use a pencil...
The process involved running 5/8 inch copper wire through a series of dies submerged in a tank. Each die hole is tapered and as the wire is drawn through it becomes thinner. The end result was 30 guage wire. Occasionaly, the wire would break and "restringing" the machines meant wrapping the wire around your hand and "pulling" it in a way that stretched the wire. When done correctly, you could slip it into the next die size lower. Done incorrectly, you could cut your hand from time to time.
I figured if I was gonna be using laquer thinner, the less cuts the better. Rapid
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Geez Don...You would like to see the death of vinyl???
Ya really want to see ME out of work too?
Just kidding Don..I have several other options that I could fall back on, if necessary. And I would quite willingly do so if needed. A guy has to do what a guy has to do to earn a living..right? Posted by Alicia B. Jennings (Member # 1272) on :
I wish "The Vinyl Makers" could buy buy our vinyl scraps and reuse them. I wish anyone would buy our vinyl scraps, so much more waste going in our landfills.
Posted by Rovelle W. Gratz (Member # 4404) on :
It wasn't "The Birth of Vinyl" that brought the "Hacks" into the business.
I was applying vinyl in the early 60s. Some of it with silk screened logos or numbers for commercial trucks and some of it we hand cut for other applications.
It wasn't the "The Birth of Vinyl" that brought out the "Hacks".....it was the birth of vinyl plotters/cutters.
[ May 01, 2005, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: Rovelle W. Gratz ]
Posted by mike meyer (Member # 542) on :
3M is based here in Minnesota Alicia.....Let's get a tour going to the main plant in St.PAUL, during the International Meet in July...What do you say?
there's also the "Ladie's Day" to (or Spouses Day) to Mall of America Thursday July 7th!
Posted by Don Coplen (Member # 127) on :
You're right on the money correct, Rovelle!
I think most of us that remember the sign business prior to and during the mid 80s thought this was going to be a great tool for our trade. And it certainly is. But, at the same time, few if any of us foresaw that it would soon lead to the "no parking sign painters" swamping the world with ugly, low ball, trailer trash signwork.
That's not to say there aren't a lot of good looking vinyl signs, (many of those coming from people who visit this site, btw). But today, you'd more than likely run up a good sized fuel bill if you go out and try to find half a dozen well done signs.
Back to Alicia's initial post (sorry), I've done several factory tours...Kellogg's in Battle Creek, Goodyear Rubber in Akron, Louisville Slugger in...well, you know where. They were all interesting. I'm sure 3M would be, too.
Posted by Alicia B. Jennings (Member # 1272) on :
Great idea Mike! Can we bring our vinyl scraps too?
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
I'm impressed with the way they make Krispy-Kreme Doughnuts Posted by Jon Butterworth (Member # 227) on :
My recollections over the years of factory tours always end in the "tasting room"
Chewing gum, ice cream, pecan nut, ginger, potato chip to name a few in my youth. Later on it was Wineries, Breweries etc.
Vinyl Factory? " Is that Cast or Calendered you wish to try Sir?"
Posted by Bob Kistler (Member # 4049) on :
I remember the pressure sensitive vinyl and mylars back when I was in high school in the 50's. that was when you need 16d nails in the corners to get it flat enough to print. Second colors were a nightmare and close registration a dream
Posted by david drane (Member # 507) on :
quote:Originally posted by Bob Kistler: I remember the pressure sensitive vinyl and mylars back when I was in high school in the 50's. that was when you need 16d nails in the corners to get it flat enough to print. Second colors were a nightmare and close registration a dream
When I began my apprenticeship in a big company in the city the closest thing I remember to stick on things was transfer paper. It was much more difficult to get to stay flat and if the weather changed then registration was a nightmare. It also had to be printed in enamel which took forever to dry and had to be finished with a clear overprint. When the sticky stuff came it took a while to find the right ink that would take to it (Mylar ink) and much material was wasted when we would stack the printed material up and the next morning it would all be nicely attached to the bottom of the material.
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