I mentioned that I sent Avery a nice KMA note yesterday and I got the feedback today. Pull up yer britches legs before reading; it gets deep.
Thank you for sending us your feedback.
The Office Products division of Avery is not trying to compete with professional sign shops, whether they are a customer of another Avery Division (like the Graphics Division) or not. The market for Avery Signs and what sign shops provide is dramatically different: on the one hand you have durable, permanent signage for professional use; on the other hand, you have temporary signage that's thrown away after the event.
Avery Sign Kits are targeted primarily toward: those people who need one or just a handful of signs, but don't have the time nor the money to go to the sign shop. Temporary use only, and are not guaranteed for long-term use, indoor or outdoor. Predominately replacing signs that are made by hand (for garage sales, personal events, etc...), not those made by Sign Shops.
The tag line, "Turn your desktop into a sign shop" is not meant to be taken literally, as the results that come from a normal ink jet or laser printer will not compare to a professionally made sign. In fact, the outdoor signs need to have a plastic sleeve over them, to prevent the ink from running. Obviously, a sign or banner with a plastic sleeve over it is very different than what you'd get from a sign shop.
We apologize for the incovnenience and sincerely appreciate your interest in Avery Dennison.
Sign Up for Free Avery Resources! It's a personalized program that's designed to meet your very specific tasks and challenges. Take the first step: go to http://www.avery.com/cem/csc and tell us about your work and interests. Get started - it's free and it's available now!
Regards,
Karla Consumer Services Avery Dennison - Office Products North America
Posted by Jill Marie Welsh (Member # 1912) on :
Puke-a-Rama. Maybe when these El Cheapo signs fail, the customers will come to us? Not hardly. This has been the nail in Avery's coffin as far as my buying their products is concerned. Thanks Ricky. Love.....Jill
Posted by Bruce Williams (Member # 691) on :
"The tag line, "Turn your desktop into a sign shop" is not meant to be taken literally. . ." ----------------------- Truth In Advertising. I don't recall hearing that one yet in this new century.
Posted by Steve Racz (Member # 4376) on :
LOL Jill,
This is the typical corporate / marketing response you would expect.
Honestly, i worked in the corporate world for 30 years and i could tell you exactly what the next CEO would say to us during a regime change. Big corporations (at least all the ones i ran into) all speak the same b.s. language.
Forgive a bit of a rant but i saw one of our CEOs make 73 MILLION dollars one year by laying off the hard working people that built the company, just to make the bottom line and stock price look good (temporarily). I quit and started making signs before they got to me. That CEO was later fired.
I saw and was very impressed with Oracal at Atlantic City and have since switched to them for all my vinyl needs.
Thanks, Steve
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
We recently lost one of our Letterville Merchants. Whenever this happens, I call up the rep and try to learn how we failed them. My hope is to win them back, or at least learn something in the process.
In this case, the Marketing person explained that they are more interested in large buyers than small buyers. It's not the first time I've heard this argument, but it still amazes me.
We ran a small shop for over 20 years. It was always go go go. With the exception of Letterheads, there was little or no communication with other small shops. They were the competition.
There is something called the 80/20 rule. In general, 20% of the people have 80% of the wealth, 20% of the Population consume 80% of the resources....you get the idea.
I still believe small, family owned shops like ours account for at least 80% of the sign biz. It follows that we also consume 80% of the products used to do our business. Why is the focus on the 20% of large companies instead of the 80%?
When pressed, some big suppliers will tell you it's easier and less hassle to cater to the big accounts. In their opinion, the small shops will just continue to do what they have always done. We'll moan and groan, but in the end we'll bite the bullet and continue to spend our "little" bucks.
Things have changed. The Internet has allowed us to talk to each other and compare notes. If some faulty product goes out accidently, or someone is treated badly everyone knows about it. Depending on where you sit, this is good or very bad.
As a former shop owner, I think it's wonderful that small shops finally have a voice. With that voice comes great responsibility. In order to be credible, we need to be sure what we say is accurate.
As a website that sells advertising, we sometimes find ourselves in a unique position. Unlike traditional adverising in magazines and direct mail, customers here in Letterville can talk back. Instead of embracing the opportunity to communicate directly with customers, they avoid forums such as this. Doing what you feel is the right thing comes with a price and can be frustrating.
Letterville needs Merchants. We're looking for suppliers that our interested in small shops and not afraid to talk to them. If you have a product or service, and are willing to put a face on your company, we're eager to see you open a store here in Letterville.
See? All that typing just to end up with a blatant pitch for Letterville. Posted by Joe Rees (Member # 211) on :
I take it Avery is not chomping at the bit to be our next merchant. I kind of feel like I've been pooped on. Shame, cuz I liked their vinyl. Now I have a moral dilemma.
Posted by jack wills (Member # 521) on :
ARLON
ARLON
ARLON
CrazyJack
Posted by Steve Luck (Member # 5292) on :
HI Letterheads, I can't sit by and not comment on the Avery issue. I used Universal Products vinyl for years before Neschen bought them. Neschen has been great and they offer many colors to choose from. Avery seems to have more colors but are usually higher priced. Oracal has come on strong lately and I have tried them and like what they have. We should talk to our suppliers whom we buy vinyl from and tell them that Avery has slapped us all in the face with this marketing ploy and that we will buy other brands. Maybe Grimco and other suppliers will drop Avery as their main vinyl and pickup other great brands that seem to work as well or better. Hard to believe a company that makes those little punch label makers that we used to play with when we were kids got too good for us all. I think they will be surprised at the next corporate meeting when sales has to explain the sudden drop in business during the 2nd quarter! Sign-cerely, Steve
Posted by Wayne Berry (Member # 1327) on :
I thought Avery bought Universal Products, SparCal,etc.
W
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
I've never used Avery products of any kind, so I'm ahead by one buck-board on the proverbial band-wagon!
Their reputation preceded them with the faulty vinyl.... AND THIS IS NOT a put-down to Avery users OK????
Wait now.... OK???
I'm sayin' FINE & GREAT if they made every dollar of your time & material good (after the huge shrinkage problem)...I'm genuinely proud to hear that . . .
but I'm just sayin' I just prefer, and am glad, I use other vinyl that never fails in the first place . . .
I'm extremely happy with my prefered vinyl and have zero reason to change... (not a rigid wench, I DID try and do use SOME Oracal as well as a few other samples)
Interestingly enough, Gregory is now carrying Avery, along with their Trendfilm and 3-M stuff . . .guess they really needed an interim intermediate line...
Oracal is 'OK' but I notice it seems 'thicker and 'stiffer', and that the tiniest edges of every thing I cut are slightly raised, even HP...
As an objective thinker, I would still consider that this could be a plotter/cutting problem . . . BUT... The thing is, I have never noticed 'raised edges' with ANY of Gergory's HP Trendfilm vinyl I cut which sticks solid flat...Trendfilm has a different feel too: thinner and more 'pliable'.
Posted by Ricky Jackson (Member # 5082) on :
Steve I've gone to the house brand that Ameriban sells; I'm pretty sure it's Neschen. I like the Oracal except that the 20" is only 19" and it is so brittle when it's weeded. The Neschen feels so supple and weeds like a dream. The price is super; they have a very nice color selection and it has a nice finish. I highly recommend this vinyl over any I've used. Restated: Avery will never, ever see another cent from this sign company!
Posted by Bill Diaz (Member # 2549) on :
I removed some shrinking A8 a while back. It was the bottom color with 2 more colors on top. It was very difficult and slow to remove. I thought it was weird. I think on certain jobs, I'll just keep an eye on it and remove and replace it only if it totally fails, because it was definately on that job to the point it almost had to be scraped off.
Big companies have no mercy. We've got to stay strong to keep them from taking over. In their zeal to take make bigger profits they'll trample over anybody in their path and see nothing wrong with it.
Posted by Jim Doggett (Member # 1409) on :
Hi All,
As a marketing person, I hope Karla isn't one of us. Probably a communications major, not long out of college.
She nailed the target consumer: home owners with crap to sell on their front lawns; schools that have raffle tickets to sell; corporate admins with too much time on their hands (and too much office products purchasing authority) who need to doll-up so-and-so's going away party. It's a classic Avery Office Product's product: Expensive stuff to put through your desktop laser or inkjet.
But she's not a great spokesperson for why Avery Sign Kits won't compete with professional signage. (And they won't) Take the price of the kit, add a set of incredibly over-priced HP, Epson or Canon ink cartridges, and then watch a typical consumer tile up 10 sheets of sticky paper. This may cut into sales of Magic Markers, but not signshops.
And to the extent that it replaces Magic Marker signage, it's good for our industry, since it raises the bar on market perceptions. If the Joneses yard sale has professional-looking signs, the convenience store down the block sure as heck better have them too -- and an Avery Sign Kit ain't going to be the store owners' solution.
My $0.02,
Jim
Posted by William DeBekker (Member # 3848) on :
Ok You guys are really Missing a Great opportunity
These will be hitting the market on Friday. Order yours now and Beat the rush. Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
quote: Avery Sign Kits are targeted primarily toward: those people who need one or just a handful of signs, but don't have the time nor the money to go to the sign shop. Temporary use only, and are not guaranteed for long-term use, indoor or outdoor. Predominately replacing signs that are made by hand (for garage sales, personal events, etc...), not those made by Sign Shops.
Lemme get this right.. In the sign industry, Avery provides vinyl materials to many of the "quicky sticky' shops across the land. Now they have a new market...cheaper-than-cheap signs for people who plan poorly and don't want to invest money into a decent sign.
Anyone else hear the word "devalue" in the back of their head, or is it just me? Rapid
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
It's unfortunate that Avery is getting all the heat on this subject. Truth is they have a great product 99% of the time. It's like debating Fords and Chevys. We all know Dodge is really where it's at!
Just mt 2 cents, but I believe today's corporations are a direct reflection on us and our buying habits. We all love to hate Wal Mart, but the lots are always full and profits continue to soar. Let's be honest. All of us want more money. Everyone loves a bargain.
To us Letterheads, signs are everything. It's more than just a job. A Letterhead looks at a sign differently than the rest of the World. We see every design flaw, every kerning mistake. It drives us nuts. We think the rest of the World is blind. How can people spend money on this junk we ask?
We're not alone. Look at the do it yourself products available in the hardware and automotive world. Ever fix your own car? Do your own plumbing? Do we really care what a small group of Plumberheads might think? People are always going to do what they can themselves in order to save a buck.
As sign professionals we have to stop bitching, accept the things we can not change, and adjust our businesses to suit a rapidly changing market. We can produce work the average guy cannot do, or develop a cheaper magic marker to sell to do it your selfers.
Posted by Bill Preston (Member # 1314) on :
Not quite sure what point you are making, Steve. One percent failure rate is still a lot of product that has come back to bite a lot of sign folk right square in the wallet and reputation.
Been lucky myself--so far I only know of one truck job having gone south, and my supplier has intimated that one way or another it will be made good.
From what I can gather from this and another forum though, a lot of sign folk are getting zip in the way of satisfaction from Avery, and this IMHO does not speak well for the company.
Our reputations for doing quality work are on the line here---and when any company---Avery or whoever makes little or no effort to back up their premium product, then looking elsewhere for a premium vinyl is about the only choice left to us, if we are to maintain the aforesaid reputation.
Granted some sign shops are getting something in the way of satisfaction from Avery---but apparently a lot more are not.
On the "stop bitching" point you make---I think we as sign professionals have every right to complain when a premium product with a premium price tag we use every day comes back to bite us in the ass.
bill preston
[ April 13, 2005, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: Bill Preston ]
Posted by Jeff Spradling (Member # 1615) on :
I was at a chili cook off last weekend in a furniture store when I noticed the large white vinyl letters "Custom Design Center" were curling up and nearly falling off in some places.
Diane had installed it about a year ago and even used a hair dryer to help stick the letters to the flat latex paint. Admittedly, not the best surface, but it's inside!
I figured it was another Avery problem, but we actually used "FDC scotchcal". Anyway we are going to redo the job with something that sticks this time. Maybe Gerber Permagrip.
ernie
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
I don't beleive for a second that this concept will fly very long.
Its not cheap, the product size is way to small, and using up expensive ink jet ink carts will not make any one happy.
You can be sure plenty of 'someone's' will run out of ink right in the middle of one of these kits. They will buy a new kit to replace one ruined panel if they catch it before it finishes.
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
Thanks, Jeff. There goes the window cling market. With 3M making these "do it yourself" window signs, how can I compete? It's so wrong for an office-supply company to start a sign supply division, then continue to sell office supplies.
Posted by Steve Purcell (Member # 1140) on :
I dropped by the shop of a friend today. He uses a lot of Avery a6. I saw some colors that really rocked me, and I figured to give them a try.
But now, thanks to the vigilance of fellow signmakers, I am aware of how Avery is (Mon Dieu!) out to screw me out of my bread and butter work; 8 1/2" x 11" HAPPY BIRTHDAY, CONGRATULATIONS, and GOOD LUCK inkjet signs for local office workers.
I guess that my only recourse is to go on a supercillious verbal tirade, and to bray thunderously against this company's attempt to create a product for a largely untapped, niche market.
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
Remember those cheap sets of 'vinyl' letters anyone could buy in packaged sets at any five-&-dime, or in almost any stores 'stationary' dept.??
They only came in red or black and sometimes even blue... only 1", 2" and 3" letters and they all had that funky 'lip' around the edge...
They had no transfer mask, but came witha 'rider' if ya had sense to use it but hardly anyone did . . .so they were usually applied funky-crooked...
People used them for mailbox numbers and to make school posters (I used them on science projects in junior high) and some businesses even used them in their store windows for their hours, etc...
They were pretty worthless for anything approaching even remotely 'nice' and I think they quit makin' them years ago . . .
ANYWAY... these new 'sign kits'???
They are just a souped-up colourful version of the previous era's trash . . . kid's will use them on school projects and for monster scrap-book hobbies...some people will try to use them in their store windows, and for yard sales & 'family event' banners....
And ya know what??
Fine.
'Cause now, I can tell even more tire-kickers and 'thrifty' moms, and misers to go to Wal-Mart or where-ever and get that set . . .
Mabey I will buy a few sets and mark them up outrageously for the customer who drives all the way out here to try to get me to make a 3x10 banner for $10 . . . I can say, "Well, MY banners are well in excess of a ten, but looky here!!! For _____$$ ( I mark-up whatever set costs about 150-200%) you can do-it-your-self and SAVE SAVE SAVE . . .AND, I'm savin' you a trip to Wal-Marx or from havin' to order by mail!!
So...I'm just sayin'...you could turn these to your advantage iz'all . . .
Here is somethin' for them for almost nothin' . . .but you could wind up gettin' paid more sellin' those customers THAT package than what you would spend in aggrevation AND TIME wasted with them turning them down or actually doing those stupid jobs always for NADA, or no real $$$$$...
See....almost everyone here gripes about the miserly customers who want somethin' fer nuthin' . . .and then some remark about how they had to 'do the dumb job anyway cause business is soooooooo slow'....
So now ya got NO excuse!...Sell them a package in 5 minutes or less and make more money spendin' less time . . . Hey. Think about it...if you take care of those cheap-o's that come by, quickly, mabey you'll have more time to go out and generate nicer jobs and eventually do away with cheap customers or keep a few sign-sets on hand as a way to be polite and offer them something if they ever drop by . . .
You know....this is just exactly like the somewhat 'decent' assortment of digital-printed car decals that auto-part stores now have a wide assortment of and you can, and you know you DO send the guy who freaks-out over a custom paint job right down there where he can spend only $30-$50 to 'dress' his lil' ride HISSELF. . .
[ April 14, 2005, 01:18 AM: Message edited by: Sheila Ferrell ]
Posted by Fred Weiss (Member # 3662) on :
The main reason some will use them is for creative control ... even if there isn't much creativity involved. The same person buys this as buys products like PrintMaster Pro. They want to tinker with selecting type themselves and apply a bunch of special effects and then drop in three clipart images. It's a logical extension for them to then want to produce the sign themselves.
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
Here's one more way to look at it:
Every lumber yard, Wal-Mart, Sherwin Williams and like,..in your town sells house paint and paint supplies, interior and exterior. They even have all kinds of cool 'stuff' for custom finishes especially made for do-it-yourselfer's...
Yet, even hi-end paint contractors are busy almost everywhere.
People can paint their homes inside and out themselves if they want... and a lot of people do. Some of them even do so really well...but they would'nt wanna do it for a living or as a career . . .
And MORE people prefer and understand the value behind hiring a professional house painter . . .and most realize it after they attempt it . . .
Same difference with dumb do-it-themselves-sign kits and professional sign people . . .
Here's one more irresistable analogy:
~A can of Drano VS a professional plumber
The average person can only do SO much with some material and limited experience . . .the HUGE majority of people are NOT going to become plumber apprentices . . . .
These sign kits should be no skin off our teeth and I hope stuff like that will help me continue to propell into MORE custom hi-end work which is where I wanna go ANYWAY . . .
Let them try to put 'hi-end custom' signage in a do-it-yourself' package....
My freind, it'll never happen . . . . . .
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
I agree Bill. When a company screws up, it is their responsibility to make things right. My post was about do it yourself products. Sheila made the same point, but in a much clearer way.
Joe Rees is right. There are a few suppliers out there that wish Letterville would go away. Some believe it is "biting the hand that feeds you" to allow any critism of products. Others see it as an opportunity to get immediate, and sometimes even helpful comments about products and services.
In my opinion communication is the key. Suppliers and users have to learn to respect each other and be more open to each other's needs. Many of the most popular characters in Letterville are also Merchants. It can work.
[ April 14, 2005, 02:41 AM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
Posted by Jeff Spradling (Member # 1615) on :
What Sheila said!!!
Jeff Posted by Rosemary (Member # 1926) on :
Wow! This very uncool, no? I told Dad about it and he called Avery to tell them they'd better get a real Avery person on here to explain! I'm sure they're going to send someone, but one of the department heads told him that some idiot in marketing started that program without the permission of the bulk film sales department. oof! How dumb! I bet that dumstuff gets cancelled pretty soon, no?
Rosemary
Posted by John Meeks (Member # 5081) on :
My 2cents worth... As a 15 year sign guy who now represents a manufacturer, I personally love the idea of a live forum to discuss methods, products, ideas and of course complaints. As a manufacture, we should welcome the feedback on decisions we make if we care about our customers. It's a whole lot cheaper and a whole lot more accurate than paying an independant firm to tell us when we're doing wrong... If we listen. Thanks for the honest opinions that propel this site and the meets. John M.
Posted by Bill Diaz (Member # 2549) on :
John, former sign makers who represent manufacturers are so valuable. Their understanding of the nature of the sign business helps bridge the gap between the manufacturer and the craftsperson. I hope you have success with this work. I remember when Dave the Letterman closed his shop and went to work for N. Glantz. Almost overnight he was able to enlighten Glantz to some of the concerns in the field, and it was as though we had an agent representing us. When he said "you got to try this," I paid attention.
Sheila, you can sure write, girl. You made me stop and think. As a society we seem to be moving to a more do-it-yourself world. You can pump your own gas, paint your own house, do your own taxes, design you own greeting card -- yada yada, bing, bang, boom! In the end and in certain cases the do-it-yourselfer can acquire a new found respect for certain endeavors. Hopefully folks will understand the limitations involved with these sign kits, and we can elevate our craft to more noble projects and send them to Wally World for the crap jobs. Then it wouldn't be so bad.
And Sheila, I started out as a self employed house painter and really enjoyed it. I especially enjoyed the peaceful feeling of painting houses in the country on gorgeous days like today. That solitude high above the ground listening to the gentle breezes and birds chirping is something I really enjoyed. When you were done, you could stand back and feel great about the fact that you just made something look a whole lot better.
Posted by Ricky Jackson (Member # 5082) on :
This is a totally unknown thing because I have never told anyone in the sign comunity. About 12 years ago I called Sign Business Mag and told Ken Higgins, the publisher, that I thought *this* issue was very good and wanted to let him know. His reply was "I thought ALL our issues were good." I laughed and told him "Ken, your free subscriptions are given at Letterheads meetings as gag gifts!" That's when he started to really pay attention and ask for my input. I told him "You have total hacks getting ink in your mag; you publish photos of garbage a decent sign painter would never claim." We talked for quite a bit about things they could do to improve the mag. I suggested they fire Emerson Swartzkoph or shut him up about dissing the Letterheads. I told him "These are the movers and shakers of this industry and you'd better kiss up and embrace them." I also told him to call Mark Oatis that lived close by and ask him if he would consider writing or contributing in some way. I told him to find someone that could screen the photos they were publishing and only print the good stuff. I made a few more suggestions and he asked me if he could have his editor call me to tell him what I had just told him. I did, we did and they did. I have to smile just a little bit when I see what Sign Business has become, knowing that I helped them just a little.
"Only a fool thinks himself tall by standing on the shoulders of giants."
Posted by Bob Stephens (Member # 858) on :
I have to agree with Steve on this issue. I don't see this as a threat to my business in any way. I say let people make their own signs if they want. I don't think they have any other choice in some circumstances because I know they can't afford to have me make their signs.
Its human nature as Steve said to want a bargain. I do whenever possible but some things I gladly pay the price for.
I've all but gotten out of the vinyl business because of all the quicky sticky shops. I started adapting years ago because I saw what was coming and what right do I have to tell everyone else they should not buy plotters and compete with me?
America is a free country and the land of opportunity. I for one hope to become one of those big corporate monsters one day. Why? because I can.
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
Amen Bob.
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
I don't believ this was done without permission. There is too much time invested in marketing and website promotion for it to be this far without the big dogs knowing about it. But, like i've said .. This do it yourself thing won't fly. But i should have said it more clearly. It won't fly as a competition to the full time professional. People been using the sticky letters, poster board and cutouts from office depot for years. I offered to give the lady next door some stuff at cost just because I could. She said she really couldnt afford it and continues to use flourecent yellow poster boards and magic markers. She has more time than money. These kits will cater to this type of buyer.
A side note.. Ive been to bob's place.. I beleive he is one who will be for sure in the Giant's column. He gives advice and his knowledge freely. If fact it seems he is dying to offer some advice. He is like others ive met who give what they got. All ya gota do is tell the what ya need. To me this is a true Letterhead attitude..
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