Firstly, some background: A fellow Letterhead has a dream, one of creating a cyberplace where fellow Letterheads from all around the world can meet and get to know each other better. A place where they can exchange ideas, and chat about their day-to-day problems, successes, and their businesses. He researches, and cobbles together just such a place, and invites the signpeople of the world into this place that he's built, and hopes that they'll enjoy their experience there. After some time, this place grows, and improvements are made as the budget and expertise will allow. In spite of some serious health problems, this guy persists in following his dream, and for the first time, signfolks have a place where they can come and meet fellow craftspeople with like passions for their chosen vocation. More and more people find out, and come to share in this guy's dream.
With any gathering of such size, there are a whole gammut of personalities. Some are gregarious and helpful, some are timid and withdrawn. Some have very litle confidence, and are in need of a helping hand. Others are bombastic and loud....sometimes to the point of becoming obnoxious. As a good host, our dreamer has to establish some guidelines of conduct...since he feels some responsibility of being a host of sorts. Toward this end, he lays down some very simple rules, and hopes that these will contribute to his guests having a positive experience while in his cyberplace.
After a while, some of those guests get ideas, that if just this or that change were made....the place would become that much better. Decisions of the host come into question, ammendments are put forward, changes are called for, and rumors of discontent are alluded to. Why can't this place be run more like the ideas that we have in mind, they begin to demand! We deserve an explaination!!! If we don't get a satisfactory one, maybe we won't participate or just trash the place!
What would YOU DO, if some folks showed up at YOUR MEET with such attitudes??? Would you feel like continuing? Would you start having any DOUBTS about building and inviting folks to such a place?? Just how much do you feel that such a host OWES YOU ??
Ok, Flame away....but this is just something that I had to say. Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
Amen.
-grampa dan
Posted by Myra Grozinger (Member # 327) on :
I empathize with the frustration that prompted you to write this, Ken.
What you are saying reads very well, yet it makes me sad twofold. Because it is painful to see how much you were bothered by the long disjointed thread, and also because it is not a very realistic assessment of what happened.
Especially here, quote: -------------------- Decisions of the host come into question, ammendments are put forward, changes are called for, and rumors of discontent are alluded to. Why can't this place be run more like the ideas that we have in mind, they begin to demand! We deserve an explaination!!! If we don't get a satisfactory one, maybe we won't participate or just trash the place! -----------------------------
This is way distorted. We all had one concern, when an old and unsettled issue raised it's head, and we started to talk about it. We asked respectful questions about it. NOBODY made threats of any kind.
Trashing the thread was done by the interferences of those with nothing to contribute except finding ways and reasons to derail our issue for their own reasons.
Only stagnant and dead things don't have growing pains. All of us who wrote and asked for some changes love this board and are vital contributors. None of us indicated a lack of appreciation for having it as a resource, a place to contribute in, or and a place to simply hang out in among friends.
Just like you said, we are all different, thank goodness, and that is what makes for vibrancy and interesting happenings.
None of the handful of people who were suggesting that we don't want to be deleted and locked up, especially based on rules that don't officially exist, said anything about not being appreciative of the monumental job it was to build this site, and to maintain it. We are all respectful of that, and it is clearly evidenced in our writing.
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
Where I come from, freedom of speech ends where injury to another begins. Frankly, I like it that way. Steve will not lock or delete a post unless he feels that someone is being intentionally or unintentionally hurt. That is his call to make! As for your words being lost or being unable to know what words others have spoken - get over it - trust me they weren't that important. Posted by Ken Henry (Member # 598) on :
Myra, with all due respect, every meet that I've attended, there was a host. Now the host may not have spelled out ALL of the rules of conduct verbatim...chapter and verse, but be assured that if they requested that I refrain from a particular action or conduct, I aquiesed to their request. I am of the firm belief that it is only a matter of good manners to do so, since I am a GUEST. If I were to notice something that I felt might improve the quality of their meet, I certainly wouldn't go up to a microphone and announce my idea to all attendees. What I might do, is to seek out the host privately, and inquire if they're ammenable to a constructive suggestion. If they were receptive, I'd discuss my idea privately, and leave it, for them to consider. They are the HOST, after all, and it's their call to make, as to whether or not they choose to act upon any suggestion I might make.
There might be very valid underlying reasons for them not wishing to act on any suggestion I might put forward, but I certainly wouldn't expect any detailed explaination of their choices or motivation, and I certainly wouldn't feel that they OWED me anything. That entire thread had a tone that somehow didn't sit well with me, and it did come off as being somewhat demanding.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
..so let me get this right?
Steve will decide if a topic should go on or not... & we should just accept his decision?? - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
So when a thread runs 152 posts & 12 members "get ideas, that if just this or that change were made....the place" could become... better...
...why are other members tryin to take the reins here... clogging up a majority of those 152 posts (& starting spin-off posts) & acting like it's there job to silence the expression of those 12 peoples ideas
Steve had obviously made the decision to allow that topic to continue... why don't some of you fellow brothers & sisters of the brush ( who at times I almost want to call "hypocritical, self-appointed, wanna-be control freaks") ...take some of your own (insert adjective of choice here) advice & accept His decision!!
I really don't want to be anyone's enemy here, & I don't get any pleasure being part of a minority that is being villianized by a majority, just over a relatively unimportant opinion. It wasn't my idea to start the thread in question, but when I saw some value in Williams viewpoints, I said so! ...& so did others. End of story!
No one demanded anything. Mutual respect would have been nice, & but it has fallen short in every direction over this topic... possibly (probably) shoring up Steves position better then any single commentary ever could.
The discussion happened. get over it. Trust me, it must have been important, or it wouldn't have happened!
Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
I think that the 4-day diahrrea flu is almost over here in Letterville. It is amazing to me that it went on as long as it did. I'm sure that Don Copelin is still wiping the tears of laughter from his eyes. The usual suspects (well most of them) continued to state and re-state their views until the core Letterheads ridiculed them, to no avail.
I think that this thread disgusted a lot more people than just little old me. I also think that some of us lost a lot of face and respect with their inane ramblings and overly affronted attitudes. I mean, this is not Rosa Parks fighting to sit in the front of the bus. This is Letterville.
Psittaceous means parrot like. I saw lots of endless quotes and other people's words flung back at them. Doug in his infinite wisdom even used the word "Duh". It really was like Gavin always says, a crap fight at the monkey house. And still it continued.
It is still Steve and Barb's playground. If we don't abide by their rules, either written or unspoken, we can gather our toys and go to someone else's playground. But in time, we will fight over the merry-go-round there too.
I was delighted, by the way, to see that William Bass has an article in this month's SignCraft. I am sure that it is a thorn in the sides of some here. But William delved in to the Letterheads with both feet, thirsty to learn. He got his ears slapped back here. He went on to greener pastures and appears to be thriving.
Like a train wreck, I of course peeked back at the behemouth thread off & on. But each time it only made me sadder. It is stuff like this that turns most people off of the BB. This place used to be about Signs, be they painted or vynull. Now it is about Whines, and I don't mean Chianti.
Hopefully today the fury will die down and we can get back to normal. Otherwise Letterville will only suffer more as people get disgusted and walk away from their computers.
Love....Jill
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
it probably wasn't his decision to be at the doctors yesterday instead of babysitting that so called endless drivel of a discussion thread...frankly i couldn't get past some of your novel style compositions. for the life of me i don't understand what the problem is....if you want to start your own debate/discussion sessions then go start another chatboard, don't clutter up this one. if you hate this site so fukin bad then don't let the door hit your a$$ on the way out. most here don't mind a few OT subjects here and there...but when some of you just keep going on and on and on...it gets old quick. honestly i think a handful of you(majority of the posters on that thread) just like to see your picture on the screen with a novel beside it. its really quite simple...be respectful to others...leave out the religious/political crap that most of use here aren't looking to read and remember what this board is...an information source for professionals in the sign business...not a place to shyt on the owner.
this is steve and barbs gig...i think they do a wonderful job...and i know its very stressful trying to keep everyone happy. those of you who aren't happy go away.....PLEASE!!
Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :
Just because a handful of people keep hammering at something, doesn't make it important. I think some folks like to feel important by hammering at stuff.
The folks that came in with comments differing from them DID have something to say. Even the one liners and jokes carried a message.
I was asked in one post why I was there if I didn't feel the same. Um, because a fair discussion hears many sides ... not just one.
Doug, you got it right though. Steve does have the right to close or delete something as he sees fit, and we should except that if we come here. This is his house.
I'd expect the same at mine, and believe me, if anyone were at my dinner table trying to hammer a point in oblivion, I'd waste no time telling them to get over it, so would my other guests.
Maybe if Steve posts a big 'ol sign at the top of the BB that states "Steve reserves the right to close or delete any post as he sees fit" this could all be resolved.
Personally, I'd be okay with that.
Nettie
[ March 09, 2005, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: Janette Balogh ]
Posted by Alphonse Dente (Member # 4993) on :
Being relatively new here, I opted to not get involved in that long, drawn-out "TOPIC CLOSED" post. I thought what started as a misunderstanding, evolved into an intelligent debate, then de-evolved into something that would be laughable, if it weren't so pathetic. That de-evolution came, not as a result of those debating, but rather by those who just "had to post" without adding anything to the content.
But I will weigh in on this new version of that old post.
If the idea is to bring that whole mess to a screaching halt...why start a new post about it?
You don't clear up a "train wreck" as it was often referred to, by sending another train down the same track.
Nettie, we've never met, but if ANYONE is adding posts, just for the sake of reiterating their already oft-made points, it's you.
I can certainly understand why some people are hesitant to be more involved here, because if you're marching to an even slightly different beat, you're pushed to the back of the parade.
They say if you're not part of the solution, you're a part of the problem. Here's what might be a solution. Let the people who want to have a free discussion about WHATEVER (and this place isn't about signs very often, to say the least), have their discussion. If it bothers you, but doesn't concern you, just go on to a different post.
-Al
Posted by mike meyer (Member # 542) on :
I'm hosting a Meet in July for all the world to come and share, and have fun. Please join me here in mazeppa and get a Breath of fresh air and I gar-un-tee you will have your money's worth, and you can suggest all the ideas and critisisums you want!! You can even help me spell?!
What happened to dealing with signs? Too much off topic stuff if ya ask me.
But what the hell do I know? I'm gonna go lay by my dish......
Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :
Alphonse, sorry to bore you buddy!
I just realized that I must be hammering in my point about people hammering in their points too often. hahahaaa too funny!
Okay, I'll stop doing that. At least until someone starts hammering again. Nettie
[ March 09, 2005, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: Janette Balogh ]
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Surely we've all said everything that we felt needed to be said on the subject, and clearly all feel that no-one on "the other side" heard what we were saying.
Doug, Myra, Sheila, Irish and company have strongly held views on the subject of locked/deleted posts and (I'm assuming) will present their ideas to Steve. Heck, I'll even "third" Sheila's motion to make it happen.
These are valued, respected and well-liked contributors this community.
I sincerely hope that Steve will listen and consider their collective viewpoint and suggestions.
Hopefully, this is the last "new topic" on the subject and the matter will get resolved one way or they other.
[ March 09, 2005, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
Posted by Marty Happy (Member # 302) on :
Good Morning! Parrot Marty reporting for duty with fresh lipstick! Or would that be 'beakstick'???
In any event, I like to see my 'purty pitcher' on here. Without a negative novel to the right of course..... I'm just a happy guy!
Posted by Troy Haas (Member # 472) on :
I held off on typing my opinion as I did not know how to put it correctly, that is until I read Ken's post. I feel just that way.
Also, I keep seeing the comment "There are more OT post than sign post'" I just did a quick count from the titles on the opening page, there were 74 total on my screen
Sign Related: 53 OT 21
Enough said.
Lastly, we are all guilty, myself included of saying "This is Steve and Barb's house, thier rules"
How many of us also "SAY" (or Type) a Thank You for this place and the hard work they do, while it is implied many times, I think we all need to say it once in awhile, or at least more than we do.
Sooooooo,
Steve and Barb, Thank You for all you do !!!!! Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
Ken,
quotes:
_________________________________________ I Demand An Explaination !!! _________________________________________
With any gathering of such size, there are a whole gammut of personalities. Some are gregarious and helpful, some are timid and withdrawn. Some have very litle confidence, and are in need of a helping hand. Others are bombastic and loud....sometimes to the point of becoming obnoxious. _______________________________________
Reply: because of all that. . . .
Quote: _______________________________________________ As a good host, our dreamer has to establish some guidelines of conduct...since he feels some responsibility of being a host of sorts. Toward this end, he lays down some very simple rules, and hopes that these will contribute to his guests having a positive experience while in his cyberplace. _________________________________________
Reply: These (rules) are now too simple for mere hope. . .
Quote ______________________________________________ None of the handful of people who were suggesting that we don't want to be deleted and locked up, especially based on rules that don't officially exist, said anything about not being appreciative of the monumental job it was to build this site, and to maintain it. We are all respectful of that, and it is clearly evidenced in our writing. _________________________________________
Thank you Ken for restating that so well.
Nettie, while I repsect your view that this is not an important matter to you, I'd like to relate to you that I do not hammer un-needed nails in carpentery, and neither do I do so with regard to subject matter & facts that contribute to a subject that is important to me.
[ March 09, 2005, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: Sheila Ferrell ]
Posted by Duncan Wilkie (Member # 132) on :
Quoting the Joker, "This crowd needs an enema" Now I did do a spell check on enema and nothing showed up... So if it's spelled wrong,the spell checker data base needs an enema too. With all the "antholes" here, I think an enema is very appropriate.
I only post this here because I want to be a part of any future dissertation on "The Implosion of Values in the Western World" as foretold at letterhead.com
Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :
I have my own rules for this place. As soon as the mud slinging starts or a thread goes over 40 posts I don't bother to read it. I just don't have enough time on my hands to read 60, 100, or 150 messages.
Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
quote:and this place isn't about signs very often, to say the least
Thats the problem.
quote:What happened to dealing with signs? Too much off topic stuff if ya ask me.
Thank you Mike.
Rules are set up by the moderator. We follow them and everything runs smoothly. I really think this whole thing is blown out of proportion.
[ March 09, 2005, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: John Deaton III ]
Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :
Sheila, the importance for you on all this is crystal clear. No one's missing that. lol
This just ain't about what's important or not to you and I. I'm reading EVERYONE'S views and I'm meshed in with the majority. You single me out when I only echo what many are saying. Much better than I too.
If words were nails, they tell the tale on the hammering part.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Duncan - I found the correct spelling and definition for "Enema".....you've got it right and here is some data to support your spelling:
Main Entry: en·e·ma Pronunciation: 'e-n&-m& Function: noun
1 : the injection of liquid into the intestine by way of the anus 2 : material for injection as an enema
But my main question, unrelated to the discussion...is why would anyone want to do this???
It sounds like a painfully messy operation to perform on oneself??!! There must be valid medical reasons...I guess.
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
quote:Originally posted by Janette Balogh:
Maybe if Steve posts a big 'ol sign at the top of the BB that states "Steve reserves the right to close or delete any post as he sees fit" this could all be resolved.
Personally, I'd be okay with that.
Nettie
I act like that sign has been there for years, makes things a lot easier.
Another sign I'd like to see up there is one that used to be seen at all the early Letterhead meets "Please leave your egos outside"
[ March 09, 2005, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: George Perkins ]
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
Thanks for the kind words Ken. You are a true friend who understands what our original dream for Letterville was.
I apoligize for my lack of participation in this weeks raging debate. For the past couple weeks, I've been going thru a series of medical tests in Kitchener, Ontario. The last 2 took place on Monday and Tuesday.
Yesterday was a stress test that came very close to bringing on a heart attack. I went straight to bed without reading everything that has been said the last couple days. I'm doing that now. I want to be sure I understand what everyone is saying before I respond.
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Sheeeeeeeeeeshhh!
If you look at Steve & Barb's aim on this site....it is like an ongoing Letterhead Meet!
We go to many meets, maybe we go to the wrong ones? When was the last time that you went to a meet...and the ONLY thing discussed was signs?
The meets that I have attended were about half signs and half meeting old and new friends, joking, catching up on news, going to dinner, and all sorts of non sign stuff!
If this place was limited to ONLY sign topics, no unpleasant words, and strictly techincal ... how long would it be before this place would be a Ghost Town?
Grow up kids!
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Hey, they got chinese food in Oklahoma?
Posted by coop (Member # 504) on :
Yes we do! I'll even buy you lunch!
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
Welcome back Steve.
My apologies Nettie . . .your posts on the other topic frequently showed otherwise as far as you grasping the main subject, which in no way, is about what I alone think is 'important'.
Once again, it's about the subject of the 'rules' & laws of Letterville and how they might be explained, changed, and added to with more clarification...
In no way does it seem a good thing to say you were 'meshed in with the majority' there either. Actually, how would that even have been possible???
There was about 1/3rd of the people making statements entirely off that subject.
Another 3rd begging for it to end. . . .
Another handful chose to both attack this/defend that... all at the same time.
A few were interested enough to share a lucid view that, is fair to say, would be described as interested but not ready to share an opinion.
I think what a handful of us really tried to do was keep 'the main thing the main thing' and avoid your 'mesh'..... a lot of that 'mesh' was just craziness and off-the-wall unfounded accusations that for the most part, that a few refused to engage in.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
when looking up "law of Letterville" the other day, I found this post from August 10 2004:
quote:Originally posted by Steve Shortreed: This thread was a great opportunity to restate what Letterville is suppossed to be about. It's obvious we have to make some changes to ensure that everyone knows the Laws Of Letterville.
The best place to do that is the Register Page. This is where you apply for the privilege of posting here in Letterville. The existing text is just not clear enough. Over the next few days, we'll work on fixing that.
In the meantime, everyone needs to be aware Letterville is not the place to debate politics, religion, or any other topic that only serves to inflame and/or divide us. This include attempts by individuals to use this forum to duke it out with each other in front of a huge audience. The proper channel is the telephone or e-mail. Better yet, I suggest there are times we agree to disagree and just walk away. The satisfaction of getting in the last hit isn't all it's cracked up to be.
I know Steve is a busy guy, & would probably benefit if he could be less busy, rather then take on any additional work or stress. When he said "the existing text is just not clear enough" he makes reference to something that is being said again.
I don't believe it "was fixed yet"... & I'm guessing this week is another nagging reminder that this would be good (for someone) to do.
BE CLEAR... I am not saying (or demanding) that HE should, or anyone should fix it, or anyone should fix it NOW... I'm just pointing out that it was considered a worthy intention 7 months ago by our Mayor, & I wouldn't be surprised if it still is.
How much "fixing" it gets (if it does) is not my place to speculate, but some ideas were shared... (not silenced as so many hoped) I didn't think that is such a bad thing.
Posted by Barb. Shortreed (Member # 1730) on :
I'm just too tired and too busy to properly address this issue tonight, but there are a few changes in effect.
You are right. The Laws Of Letterville are not precise enough. To insure this type of stuff never happens again, I will rewrite them and post them in a more predominate location. There will be additional text stating that Letterville reserves the right to delete or lock any post we decide violates the rules.
A new employee by the name of Helen Waite will be in charge of handling complaints. Those who want to debate our decisions can call us personally or go to Helen Waite!
More to come. Stay tuned!
BTW...I am not breaking my own edit rules. It is indeed Steve and not Barb.
[ March 09, 2005, 09:15 PM: Message edited by: Barb. Shortreed ]
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Coop, you are on! I will be in OKC around 3:30 or so tomorrow afternoon!
Posted by Serge (Member # 3645) on :
my 2 cents, if I may, as I am been out of the Sign Industry since 1998, but was one of the first users of this site since 1996 and was in the Internet Chat Board Business since 1997. (Still in it, after selling the Adult Webmasters Chat Board last year, running the wine chat board)
There are few rules I find work well in Web Chat World:
1) no personal attacks, attack ideas, not the people
2) no blatant spam, especially from the ex sponsors who cry the river how inefficient the advertising was on the board, but have no problems spamming their wares for free every chance they have
3) ad revenues should support the operations and the use of the board should be free for members.
Those 3 very simple rules solve 98% of the ALL Chat Boards problems, for the owners and the members alike.
Just my 2 cents....
Posted by Myra Grozinger (Member # 327) on :
Is it just me or is there anybody else who thinks it's humorous that if we have a problem in the future we should go to Helen Waite? ---------------------------------------------- - - - - - - -
(When my son went to summer camp the director's name was also Helen Waite. There were lots' of jokes about going to hell and wait.)
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
i think its funny! well spoken steve!
but if you read the whole sentence...there's a message inbetween the lines....got it now??? i think the key point is...if you want to debate their decisions...call them personally...if not then go to helen waite...might want to bring an ice tea, i near her office is really warm.
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Helen is terrific, she has been handling my complaints for years.
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There must be valid medical reasons...I guess.
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