This is topic Vinyl job screwup in forum Letterhead/Pinstriper Talk at The Letterville BullBoard.


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Posted by Peter Crossing (Member # 4009) on :
 
For some reason, botique shops in new york loves frosted vinyl, but it is always a nightmare to install.

Today I went to install a frosted vinyl (Avery Etchmark) on the glass door of a botique shop, and it failed big time. This freaking vinyl is just too thin, and any stretch will distort the graphics. I took the adivce of another sign guy by using application liquid to eliminate bubbles and wrinkles, only to find that the vinyl gets so slippery it won't stick to the glass door at all. I suspect maybe the vinyl is too thin, or the application tape is too sticky, but not sure what the real problem is.

Does anyone know how to cover large glass door with frosted vinyls? What film, application tape you would use and whatever else I need to know before I try for a second time? Thanks.
 

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Posted by Jason Davie (Member # 2172) on :
 
Peter,

I never wet install on glass esecially if its cold, also you maybe using a higher tack application tape than you need, try using a less aggressive one.. hope it helps

Jason D
 

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Posted by Tony Ray Mattingly (Member # 469) on :
 
I have used the Avery glass etch vinyl with not to many problems. It is very thin. It does seem like I get a variety of "stickiness" with transfer tape.
Here is something I have done before to make the transfer tape less sticky. Prior to applying it to your graphics, lightly apply it to your t-shirt. It will pick up small lint partials and make the tape less sticky.
Also, you can try not weeding it until it has bee applied to the background. This works well on small images.
 

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Posted by William Holohan (Member # 2514) on :
 
Low tack tape
Wet apply w/RapidTac II, carefully squeegee (Gentle but thorough)
Have a coffee, beer, seltzer (20 minute pause)
Wet application tape
Couple more sips of favorite beverage (5 minute pause)
Very gently remove application tape

Smile and ask for the check.
 

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Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 
I've had that wetting the transfer tape save the day a number of times, but although I may use R.T. for the install... just water to wet the tape.

I think 'd just have both beverage breaks before wetting the tape, then after wetting the tape, rub it in real good so it is absorbed, then get going on it, because in my experience, if you wait too long, the paper comes off without the glue & that glue mess is another step to be avoided.

I've also discovered on large coverage, to tear the tape & pull a strip out of the middle, then you can get another area started from the middle (where there may be a better bond) & work out from there twords the edges (where there may be less bond) On smaller graphics, I would also go dry, but if you have to go wet... come back tomorrow to remove the tape.
 

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Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
 
Peter . .

I know exactly what you mean about the pliability of that material...Gregory's etched and frosteds are the same way ... I did the front doors of a ladies home with it . . .two ovals about 60" tall and about 20" wide . . .

Guess what??

I really don't have no magic tricks for ya . . .I learned the same thing you learned...it's very unforgiving material . . .

~Do apply dry . . .
~Do use transfer mask... (sorry...that's a given 'duh'. . .)
~Do take your time...UH! ok I know you know that . . .

I had one glass window to do for a business where I knew that girl was probably NOT going to stay in that building very long so I talked her into letting me do her signs smaller than the window on some plexiglass . . .I was able to do them in the shop, she hung them up like people hang stained glass peices . . .and then she was able to take them with her when she moved...

~Here's one idea for etched...you can double and even tripple the designs on it for a deeper effect...
like say...

Just for an example . . .

~You have a solid oval . . .about 16" x 24" mabey
~then a 1/4" clear glass space around the oval . . .
~then a 2" ring of etched around that . . .

~Directly ON the 2" ring you might apply 2 rings of say 1/2" and 1/4" striping of the same etched material about 1/4" apart
~Made to fit inside the main oval you have some lovely scroll pattern centered on a smaller oval of all the same material . . .with another 1/4" ring border . . .

man...I gotta get a scanner huh?? that may be impossible to explain . . .but...it DOES work . . . .
 

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Posted by Jean Shimp (Member # 198) on :
 
I've used large area (30" x 24") sections. It's tricky getting the right amount of application fluid. Too much or too little can be frustrating. Use as little as possible. One thing I've learned to do is design the graphics with "breaks" in the design to make the panels smaller.
 

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Posted by Peter Crossing (Member # 4009) on :
 
Thank you all for the tips and tricks.

The door I was working on has two panels, one is 36"X88", the other is 17"X88". The graphics was very complicated with numbers, nonsense Japanese characters, websites, etc etc. All these elements are contained in several panels that also need to be aligned horizontally on two door panels, this installation is really an order from hell.
 

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Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
 
Peter,with what, and how did you clean ?

Cleaning is the BIG secret (and R.T.IIs ability) to stimulate the adhesive.

You can't get TOO much, but you can get too little and cause bubbles of air traped under vinyl.

You guys are not doing something right if you have to wait more then 5 minutes.

Roger
 

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Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 
I once did a sailboat with all the masts & rigging in cut vinyl... talk about a weeding nightmare, but removing transfer tape from that?? I was a new guy back then, & that was really a job to do dry, but on any intricate jobs with small areas... a wet application will need plenty of time to begin evaporating IMO.
 

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Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
 
I thought I had shown you the right way Doug, what happened?
Roger
 

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Posted by William Holohan (Member # 2514) on :
 
Roger,
I only do the long (20min) "wait out" in cold weather on cold glass with the etchmark or transparent. Good adhesion is your friend with these materials. Should have been more specific. 5 min is plenty with standard vinyls.
 

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Posted by Barry Branscum (Member # 445) on :
 
Try five drops of BASIC H from SHAKLEE.com in a quart of water. Best dang app fluid I have ever used. (Sorry Roger)90 seconds from wet app to peeling off the tape. Basic H makes water "wetter" without making it tooooo soapy.

It is also an excellent cleaner for surface prep, costs just about 10 bucks for a quart concentrate that will last you just short of forever.

We use it here every day.

Best freakin' app solution ever and it's available HERE

and here's a pdf with more complete info

quote:

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quote:

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Originally posted by roger bailey:
So, whats in it ?

Roger

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The website says "Contains linear alcohol alkoxylates." Unfortunately, I have no idea what that is or what it means.

Whats in Rapid Tac?
 

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Posted by Barry Branscum (Member # 445) on :
 
I am not a chemist. I just know it works amazingly, every time. It is biodegradable, and very enviro-friendly. I have heard some tales of ladies adding a drop or two to cake batter for a added moisture. Never tried that, (not sure if I'd want to)but the point is that it is safe, does the job (been using it for ten years)and it's inexpensive.

heres a little quote from the website:

quote:

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Back in 1960, Basic-H was the first environmentally safe household cleaner on the market. Today, millions of bottles later, it's more loved than ever.

Efficient, powerful, safe, biodegradable, and economical, Basic-H is the world's most versatile cleaner, period. Sixteen ounces makes up to 90 gallons to clean hard surfaces, woodwork, walls, floors, glass, mirrors, even cars. Anything you can clean with water, you can clean with Basic-H. No wonder it was named an official Earth Day product.

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It cleans, degreases and works as an app solution. What more do ya want>>?

And what is in rapid tac?
 

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Posted by Dan Streicher (Member # 4515) on :
 
I love working with frosted and dusted vinyl guess I just love punishment..... this is how I do it, clean surface clean again, check for any oils dust anything, position graphic on glass the ones I have done are always large so I place it with tabs of tape on the top of the masked film and then I place a center hinge peel off the backing to the center hinge and use a felt squeegee to apply working almost in a large sideways V shape remove the tape from the center hinge apply other side and then SLOWLY and with LOW friction remove the transfer tape, then I go to the other side of the glass or acrylic and look for any flaws I DO NOT TRY TO WORK THEM OUT TO THE SIDES OF THE VINYL just poke a small hole and push the air to the hole BiNGO Bango BONGO hand them your invoice, ALWAYS ask if they know of anyone else who would benefit from your products and services (gotta love those referrals) and on to the next project.....
 

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Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
 
Doug, you are right (I think it even says so on my site) "not all jobs call for a wet application". Oh yeah, and thank you for your buss.!

Barry, and brian, whats in Rapid Tac and TacII is this;
components that were designed to clean, position, stimulate solvent or latex adhesives, but formost these components enhance the longivity and bond of the film and adhesive, they leave only "compatible residues".

Don't take my word for it (yeah right) read Avery/Fasson test report on my site
www.rapidtac.com

If Basic H works for you, well, have at it!!
I think I'll keep brushing my teeth with tooth paste though. ;>)

Roger
 

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Posted by Barry Branscum (Member # 445) on :
 
DId you know toothpaste makes the best jewelry cleaner?

(Components? what the heck are components?)

Edited to add:

I looked at your site Roger...and couldn't find the Avery report. Maybe you'd post a direct link??

[ March 09, 2005, 01:02 AM: Message edited by: Barry Branscum ]
 

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Posted by Barry Branscum (Member # 445) on :
 
....

[ March 09, 2005, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: Barry Branscum ]
 

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Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
 
2 SECONDS... GO TO ENDORSEMENTS... CLICK ON FASSON

[ March 09, 2005, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
 

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Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
 
Under endorcements Barry, FASSON just click it.

Roger
 

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Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
 
alcohol alkoxylates is a member of the nonionic surfacants.

Surfacant = fancy name for soap.
 

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Posted by Barry Branscum (Member # 445) on :
 
is ye fer me, er agin me, cutis? ???


(Does rapid tack or rapid prep not contain a detergent of some sort?)
 

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Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
 
Rapid Tac does contain a surfactant,keep in mind there are thousands of differing formulas of surfactants.
The dificulty is in finding the one that leaves a compatible residue, yes they are ALL gonna leave a residue.

Barry, just curious, have you tried Rapid Tac and TacII, and did you feel like they worked correctly for you?

Roger
 

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Posted by Barry Branscum (Member # 445) on :
 
Yup,I have indeedy! and while I don't really find real fault with them, other than the fact that it takes longer to remove the app tape (even wet app tape) when I use either one, as opposed to the Basic H, which as I have said before, will usually turn loose almost immediately. (within a minute to a minute and a half.)

That, plus the cost factor, versus Basic H I have around anyway....well it is just no question. I find RAPID TAC (and all others like it) to be overpriced and outmatched by a product that will make almost 6000 usable spray bottles full (quarts) from only ONE QUART of the concentrate.

It's nontoxic, biodegradeable and has NO ODOR.

It's not that I find RT to be bad, I just find Basic H to be so much better

They'll send anyone who asks a free sample. Try it. It doesn't need to be hyped.

Bottom line: BASIC H will provide you with a great app solution, thousands of quarts worth for about the same price (under 11 bucks) as one 32 oz bottle of rapid tac II.

That's a ton of cash over time. eleven bucks times one thousand? How 'bout two?

[ March 09, 2005, 09:09 PM: Message edited by: Barry Branscum ]
 

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Posted by roger bailey (Member # 556) on :
 
Gee Barry,have you givin any logical thought to the "diluteing percentage" that would mean your only getting a "water slip" fluid (which will freeze in cold weather) and dosn't have enough of anything but water to help the adhesive bond.

I would guess that you didn't follow instructions on Rapid Tac or TacII bottle, otherwise you would have realized the difference between using "application fluid" compared to BASIC WATER.

Just an observation!
And may God bless

Roger
 

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Posted by Barry Branscum (Member # 445) on :
 
(woops, bumped the wrong post.)

[ March 10, 2005, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: Barry Branscum ]
 

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