With all this bad news about Avery what do you guys think about Oracal 751...Good or bad.. thanks
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
ORACAL 751 OR 851 GOOD MOJO....651ORA-CRAP...!!!!
Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
Sorry to say Joe, I use 651 every day for something and it aint crap. You bought any lately? Its got a 6yr minimum on it now. You still using Ameribans crap? Posted by Gonzalo (Peewee)Curiel (Member # 3837) on :
well that makes me feel good!!!!! I used this since day one (1 year ago). And didn't want to have to worry about come backs..
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
no john...and untill it dont feel and sound like bubble wrap plastic packaging....i wont! i bought 2 rolls of 3M intermediate....and i like the feel of it and it was only $2 more for a 24x50 yard then the 651 PRICE. give it a shot....then you will see what iam saying.... as for the BANNERCAL...yep still use it(ecept fot the red, its total crap) and SHINE RITE...great for baseball and coro signs....that anit gota last more then a year.
[ February 20, 2005, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
We use Hexis up here Peewee, give up a call Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
My favorite vinyl is Gregory's Trendfilm premium grade 6500 series..It simply lasts longer than they even claim. . . .they also have 3M.
You can tell an amazing difference in the 'feel' of that vinyl compared to Oracal 651 & 751. . . Interestingly enough, OP is right about this...the Oracal 651 AND the 751 feels like 'stiff', brittle plastic . . .like cheap intermediate vinyl.
Another unusual trait of the Oracal...after you weed & apply the material...I notice very, very slight 'raised' edges on all the copy. To get it to lay down flat would mean burnishing the edge if every single letter! I never see this with Trendfilm or the 3M material I cut on my plotter so I know it's the material, not the plotter.
The reason I have been ordering and using the Oracal 651 & 751 though, is the HUGE difference in shipping costs between Gregory & Aluma-Panel on overnight shipping. . .also Gregory started this '$50' minimum order thing about 2 years ago . . .no matter how much money you spend with them every year...even if your order comes to $47.99 you'll need to add something else to get it over $50...
Now, Gregory's new catalogue shows the new vinyl additions...Oracal . . . AND Avery?
I've had a coupl'a people tell me the Oracal holds up well. I sure do hope so.
I'm gonna make a panel using both, and hang it on the sunny side of the shop to moniter it every few months . . .
Posted by Gonzalo (Peewee)Curiel (Member # 3837) on :
but what do I do with 32 rolls of 751? Everyone one says stick to one brand and type..
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
lol Gonzalo...ya better get to sellin' some signs....
BTW...who is 'everyone'?? I think 'everyone' would agree we need different vinyl for different jobs...you would'nt really need to put the best grade vinyl on that temp. sign or banner that will only be used for a week or 6 months and trashed . . .but you want the premium grade stuff for the high end signs . . .
Also, some brands may not have some certain, unique colour you need . . .
I've had vinyl peices around for ages since I nearly always hand-cut my logos on vinyl jobs . . .now that the plotter is goin'... I'm buying more roll quantity...most of the rolls I'm getting are various colours...but only 20 to 30 yards of each. . . .I ordered basic colours like black, saphire blue, red, white and 2 shades of hunter green.
I'm also ordering other colours as I sell jobs . . .with overnight or even 2 day delivery available . . .ordering material when I sell a job is no problem and I go ahead and get 20 or 30 yards of it so I can build my inventory up slowly rather than trying to order a bunch'a material at one time that may never get used . . .
I may have the perfect hunter green in 5-6 year vinyl....but if it's a high end job . . .I order the premium 8-10 year grade to fill the need. Posted by Gonzalo (Peewee)Curiel (Member # 3837) on :
Well paint makes up for 80% of my work, as long as most people agree 751 is a good pruduct I will stick with it. I generally don't do much intermediate stuff and for what little (very little) I do I have 4 colors for that red white blue & black.. I too like to order an extra roll or two of another color to build up my inventory. and would really hate to here the comments I read about Avery be said about 751.. and would really hate to switch brands now.. Everyone= people I've spoke to about intermixing vinyl...thanks everyone !!! And I hope I made no spelling mistakes..LOL
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Gonzalo - just a note: Oracal 751 is NOT a premium CAST vinyl....although it's characteristics come closer to that ideal...
For the minimal price difference....you'd be better advised to buy REAL cast vinyl such as 3M, or some of the other makers offer.
Also be advised: I think many don't understand that several brand name vinyls actually use Avery, and just brand name it under their name....SparCal was a good example of this....
So do some research or you may end up with the exact vinyl you were trying to avoid.
How is that Avery thing shaking out by the way? Are they past the problems yet?
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
OP - I actually agree with you on part of your post...imagine that!
I find Oracal 651 to be far more difficult in weedability and cutting than some other brands for calendared vinyl....however, I do use their 651 White for Gerber stuff as it seems to take a print well....Personal preference I suppose, as well as cutting idiosyncrasies of different plotters and blades?
Posted by Pete Sharkins (Member # 4525) on :
I agree with the personal preferences quote.
Of the 150-ish assorted rolls of vinyl currently in my "collection", a vast majority of it is...Avery and 651.
Never had a redo due to quality issues.
Go figure Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Pete - I never had a "redo" either...but just personally experienced a lot of frustration with inconsistant cutting and weeding with 651.....some colors tended to be worse than others....
Yep, personal preference is that I just don't care for what I perceive as an excessively "crinkly" brittle feeling vinyl....but that's just me.
Avery on the other hand - I have had very good luck with...although I know many others have experienced problems of late with it....
Posted by Glenn Taylor (Member # 162) on :
Just to let you know, my distributor told me last Friday that Oracal 751 will be replacing Oracal 851 and will become "cast" vinyl. She said that Oracal will be dropping the 851 series.
I've not had any independent verification of this yet.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Hi Glenn...haven't talked to you in a long while.
Hey, have you heard the reasoning behind the new "Edge"? It seems to be the same as the Edge 2 except they have a new shuttle for foils.
Is this due to the competitive foils taking away a great deal of their consumable market share for the edge foils?
Give us the lowdown.
I'm also wondering if the Edge will be "going away" before long as more outdoor durable, affordable inkjet printers are coming online.
I also see that they are now successfully producing "white" ink for a few inkjet printers....what's your take on this?
Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
Joe, Ive used the 3m intermediate. DIdnt like it at all. Different strokes.... As far as lastability, 651 will outlast some cast vinyls on the market. Ive stuck with it since it came out, and havent had any problems. Not like, you know, that Avery stuff that everyone swore by so much. Hint Hint. Its just what you get used to and like to use, and what works for you. Oracals vinyls work for me. I use Oracal 651 and 851. Dont intend to quit any time soon.
Posted by Johnny Taylor (Member # 4832) on :
Just my 2 cents. We have used 751 for the last 4 years and the only failure we have had is metallic gold. We find 851 to be a great vinyl.
Posted by Harris Kohen (Member # 2139) on :
isnt that funny, I use AVERY and love the stuff and since they did take care of my problems in a very good and reasonable fashion, I will continue to use it.
On the other hand I can only comment on 3m and tell you that I have had problems with their reflective in the past, with no solution from 3m themselves.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
the 751 & 851 are both PREMIUM CAST VINYLS...the 851 was brought out with an 8 year life....and the 751 was only 7 i now it is rated as 8 year. i like both of these, totally different product then 651.....
Posted by Mark Stokes (Member # 5351) on :
I use 751 for my long term signs and 651 for my short term stuff and have had no problem. To me vinyl lettering will out last the painted enamel background as it fades due to the weather so if a sign lasts seven years plus the customer has got there moneys worth especialy if it faces full sun all year round.
Posted by Brian Snyder (Member # 41) on :
quote:Originally posted by old paint: the 751 & 851 are both PREMIUM CAST VINYLS...
This has been gone over a hundred times here. You reply to every Oracal post on this forum so I know you've read it before. 751 is NOT a CAST vinyl.
John...I'm just curious...what's the oldest exterior sign (or vehicle) that you've done out there that's wearing 651..in the sun?
How is it wearing..I mean...what seems to break down first? Is it a material that lifts and curls on the edges?? Or does it seem to start fading and getting hairline cracks?? I wonder if Kentucky's weather is comparable to the deep south . . . ....I'm really wantin' to know what to expect in the next 5-7 years . . .
Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
Shelia, I did a vehicle (coal truck) with 651 five years ago, and it still looks as good as the day I did it. No shrinkage, no peeling, etc. I actually did it as an experiment, knowing full well if it failed, I would have to replace the job. I also have a couple mdo signs that I did that I used 651 on that have been out 4 years in the sun, with no shrinkage, no peeling, etc. And actually, this was before Oracal put a 6 year minimum on their 651. OP does have one thing right though. It is not an extremely pliable vinyl like 851 or 3m hp, but I have no problems with weeding, even small copy, or adhesion, especially to signs painted with acrylic backgrounds. Ive also got several signs that I did over five years ago with 751 red, that are still in great shape. I used whitewood for the signs which has a pvc glossy face, so the vinyl really stuck good. It has not faded at all. Ive had great results with Oracal 651 and 751, 851. Its good vinyl.
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
Thanx John . . . I feel better already from your encouraging words . . . . . Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
Use what you have - if you like it and it works for you. We all have our preferences, and this place is never going to agree on one or the other. Why not get in touch with the sales reps from the different companies and tell them you are shopping around for which brand to be loyal too. They should be happy to send you a couple of yards of each of thier lines so you can try them out. If they aren't - I'd be wondering about customer service down the road. Then sit down some day and see which fits you best.
Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
This is whats on Oracals website:
851:10 year premium cast film Ultral high gloss, superior conformability High durability in extreme conditions Thermal Print compatible 2mil
751:8 year premium calendered film Ultra gloss, renowned performance and conformability Demanding Durability requirements Thermal print compatible 2mil
651:6 year intermediate film High gloss. Medium term durable applications Extended indoor applications Thermal print compatible 2.5 mil
All three are clear solvent based permanent acrylic. Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
Yeh I know John . . it's right there on back of the colour samp. catalogue too . . .
but that really means so little to me compared to how it ACTUALLY WORKS everyday in a practical enviroment on a variety of substrates, in 100 different temps . . .
It's like anything that gets re-called . . . "OH...but it was tested in THIS area, and THAT area, under THIS stress & THAT stress, and by THESE people, and THOSE people . . .but consumer number 275,985,651 million found another way to use it and now everyone's usin' it that way, 'cause that's what it's really good for...BUT under THAT situation..the product fails . . ."
So...back to the drawing board the inventor goes...to re-invent a better product that the consumers discovered it's best use for . . .
LOL . . . Posted by Gonzalo (Peewee)Curiel (Member # 3837) on :
Man, at least for once I think I made a good choice!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by Barry Branscum (Member # 445) on :
Think OP gets it yet, or should we print him a Tee Shirt?
Posted by Tom Bahr (Member # 2925) on :
I'm with John on this one,(My Opinion). I have to give oracal their credit. I use 651 & 851. The 751 "calendered" seems to be too close to the 651, but more expensive. I've had great luck with the 651 calendered lasting longer than I need it to last. I use the 851 when I need HP vinyl with great results. I was told by my supplier that the 751 was going to be phased out.
[ February 22, 2005, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: Tom Bahr ]
Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
I use 651 nearly every day. I especially like the fact that the white comes on a blue liner, easier to see what you are weeding. Love....jill
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
i get it....but just dont like workin with bubble wrap....as for price 651 aint that inexpensive. SHINE RITE IS CHEAPER, LOOKS AS GOOD AND IS MORE PLYABLE. 3M intermediate cost only a couple bucks more....per roll and its a way better product. avery had problems with their HIGH PERFORMANCE VINYL not the A6!!! again i will say the 851 ORACAL IS GREAT STUFF....i knows what i knows....no 651 WILL EVER RESIDE ON MY SHELF...as long as there are better products out there.
Posted by nicola mcintosh (Member # 5371) on :
quote:Originally posted by Jillbeans: I use 651 nearly every day. I especially like the fact that the white comes on a blue liner, easier to see what you are weeding. Love....jill
me too jill!! i also love 751 amazing to use in the contours of most vehicles..does the same as cast!!
Nik
Posted by Johnny Taylor (Member # 4832) on :
A pic of the latest roll of 751 we have. We are told by our supplier all of the 751 will be cast in the coming months.
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