if we're just talking gross sales, I've probably done about the same in 6 years... & I'll bet I've had more fun then cranking out that same old crap all day, every day. But I do probably have more overhead costs.
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Hey!
Great new pic Doug! Make sure you get that one on your website! At the end of the day, people do business with people, not companies with companies.
Posted by William DeBekker (Member # 3848) on :
That still isn't shabby at all. We still dont top $100,000 a Year.. YET
Posted by Paul Bierce (Member # 5412) on :
There's a lesson to be learned here. Hmmm.
I'm with William, 100k aint to shabby.
Thanks for the post Mike.
You're a wise man Jon.
Posted by William Bass (Member # 4929) on :
I wouldn't enjoy producing those particular signs but the idea could be modified to signs I do enjoy producing....right?
I wonder how much he pays for the EBay thingy.
I actually don't mind mindless, repetitive work...it's relaxing (well, it's not like soaking in a hot tub exactly, but...)
Posted by William Bass (Member # 4929) on :
Ooh Ooh, I know...I could sell pre-lettered vans...you just pick out the one with your logo on it and I FedEx it to you next-day air!
{That's a neat trick Doug! You looked so different a page ago.}
[ February 04, 2005, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: William Bass ]
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
To have sold that many he would have had to do one every 15 minutes for six years, eight hours a day - no vacations, holidays, or time off for being sick.
What is the net dollar figure after all the materials, shipping, and cost of E-Bay? That's a lot of aluminum, vinyl and transfer tape. He must be really fast. Of course he has workers that weed, tape, apply, box and ship. Wonder what they make?
$100,000.00 ain't too shabby...if that is what you get to put in your pocket. I took in more than that last year. The only problem was that most of it didn't go in my pocket.
[ February 04, 2005, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: Raymond Chapman ]
Posted by William Bass (Member # 4929) on :
Yeah...there's that little difference between Gross Sales and Net Profit...messes things up a bit.
Posted by Fred Weiss (Member # 3662) on :
Well do the math.
671 signs a month @ $15 = $10,065
Materials and ebay commission @ 20% = $2,013
To make 32 signs a day with a fulltime entry level helper @ $8 per hour + 15% FICA and benefits = $1,600 a month.
Small shop rent, phone, utilities, insurance and miscellaneous = $1200
Net taxable monthly income = $5,252
Not too shabby. Now add in how profitable any local sign work you also did would be with your fixed overhead and your helper all paid for.
One average banner @ $125 and one pair of mags @ $75, for example, should generate another $140 (after materials) a day x 21 days = $2,940 additional in your pocket.
[ February 04, 2005, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: Fred Weiss ]
Posted by William Bass (Member # 4929) on :
When can I start?....I'd love to make $8.00/hr!
Posted by William Bass (Member # 4929) on :
An' that AIN'T too shabby...I'd rather make 5000/mo than 3000/mo in net profit...any month of the year.
Oops, I misunderstood...you're ADDING local and ebay endeavors...I thought you were COMPARING them!
[ February 04, 2005, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: William Bass ]
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
I agree that 100K in sales is not shabby at all. (actually I don't know when in 1998 he started though)
I made $670000 in sales since 1-1-98 (7 years @ 97k/yr) & I can honestly say I'd rather take home 3k monthly for doing what I love, then take home 5k monthly for running an aluminum novelty factory.
Actually I probably could have taken home 5K/month, & kept my shop, tools & truck kinda old & grubby... but instead, I've invested in making a very nice place, with very nice work conditions to facilitate having a very fun job Posted by Tim Whitcher (Member # 685) on :
I think he'd need more than one employee, especially at $8.00 an hour, if that's what he's paying (try and get any kind of speed or talent for $8.00 an hour outside of the Appalachians). Remember, all these signs need to be work ordered, invoiced, boxed, addressed, shipped; customers dealt with through emails, materials ordered, received, inventoried, stocked; packing materials ordered, received, inventoried, stocked. Time spent relisting items. I charge $37.00 ea. for a very basic 12 x 18 aluminum sign (white background, 1 color lettering plus border, one font (helvetica bold) and no proof. Bet the guy averages $25,000.00 a year for himself if he's lucky. He would probably make more selling Coca Cola collectibles on ebay.
Posted by Tim Whitcher (Member # 685) on :
Oh, and don't forget all the royalties he has to pay for using the licensed logos........ Posted by Mikes Mischeif (Member # 1744) on :
Youse guys crake me up. First of all is there any here amoung us that can only make 4 12 x 18's in an hour?
Second, The totaL materials are only $3.00 each. (Don't make me do the math). I don't know about 20 percent going to ebay. Hmmmm.
You also don't need a "shop" to do this work. A 4x8 table is all you need. Ask me how I know.
Inventory? A few rolls of red and black should do it. No? Stocking (yeah, set it on the floor)
That's 8 grand to go to any overhead and to pay yourself (not an 8/hr employee) for the time.
Everyone paying themselves 8K a month making easy money raise yer hand.
Don't overthink what's going on here. It's ebay fer cryin out loud.
Posted by Fred Weiss (Member # 3662) on :
Daddyhog is selling predetermined novelty designs - not custom signs and probably produces them in batches and inventories them. Shipping is extra. There is virtually no customer contact.
His aluminum is most likely precut and punched.
He probably averages two signs or better per order so he is filling 35 shipments a day. 2 to 3 hours sounds about right to pack, invoice and ship.
While he's doing that he sends multiples of jobs to his high speed plotter.
At 2:00 PM his parttime high school helpers, Jimmy and Susie, arrive and weed what has been cut. Jimmy and Susie are used to working together since he was a cook and she worked the drive-thru at the local BK Lounge for $6.50 an hour. They like working for Daddyhog. There's a lot less stress and the $8.00 an hour goes a lot further in a place like Midland, TX.
Using a SpeedPress, they apply the vinyl to the substrates and stack their work in it's place on the inventory shelves. At 6:00 they wave goodnight having made 200 new signs.
While all this was going on, Daddyhog setup a new sign and uploaded it to his eBay store, made a bank deposit, had lunch, paid some bills and still had time to play a couple of computer games.
It's not too shabby but I wouldn't call him a signmaker. He's a novelty product producer who has found a good way to handle his marketing.
Posted by Fred Weiss (Member # 3662) on :
quote: Second, The totaL materials are only $3.00 each. (Don't make me do the math). I don't know about 20 percent going to ebay. Hmmmm.
The 20% I put forward includes the ebay expense and materials. ebay probably costs him 3% to 5% of gross sales. When he auctions a sign it goes for $14.95 but the "Buy It Now" price is $19.95 which is how most of his sales are made.
Posted by Barry Branscum (Member # 445) on :
And if ya look...the BUY IT NOW price....which is what he is wanting for these...is 19.95PLUS SEVEN BUCKS shipping, NOT 15. That is a BIG difference when you are talking thousands of signs annually. IN the past year the guy had 8100 positive feedbacks, and ALL he sells is these signs, but he has over 1600 items for sale too, all these silly novelty signs. BUT if he had 8100 positive feedbacks for products sold over the past 12 months, and all he sold was these lil 12x18s @ 20.00 a pop, thats a gross profit above $160,000. Lets say it cost's him FIVE bucks each to make(It won't and you KNOW he's using HP vinyl right? shheyeah, right) that STILL leaves a NET of 120,000.
'course with over 1600 entries, it aint a little sideline either...
Posted by Tim Whitcher (Member # 685) on :
4 12x18's in an hour... ok, fire up computer, check emails for orders, 16 orders today, 8 different layouts, hmmmm... an hour and a half at least to figure out the orders (including processing payment, hopefully no glitches with idiots not paying correctly). Next, open 8 individual files, load vinyl, cut two passes for each sign... 1 hour.... weed, mask vinyls, 1/2 hour (oops, screwed one up, stop and recut/weed/mask add 15 minutes)... package in cardboard, type and print address labels, stack for UPS pick up (except for the 4 signs that were requested to be sent USPS) 7 minutes per package, = 2 hours... answer email inquiries from potential customers, update ebay listings, (hmmm, haven't been selling "bunny" signs, but listed 15 this week... subtract $30.00)... do my book keeping, empty the trash, write the bills, etc. etc. etc. Oh yeah, don't answer the phone when Disney's lawyers call again. I'd rather sell used cars.
Posted by Tim Whitcher (Member # 685) on :
And as far as making these in batches ahead of time, he has about 50 designs, most are pretty obscure, so I doubt he could second geuss how many of any design he is likely to sell. Averaging 2 signs per order? Highly unlikely. Why would anyone need 2 of any novelty sign? This guy may be having fun in his basement, but making real money? Bet his wife is a nurse with good health benefits, and he's playing at running a business. There must be 5 sign shops that fall into this category in my county alone (pop. 120,000). If he were really making money, he wouldn't be the only guy on eBay doing it.
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
What does anyone really care? Is he cutting into your novelty sign production profits?
Posted by Tim Whitcher (Member # 685) on :
I don't really care. It's just the IDEA that this guy is somehow getting rich that I find puzzling.
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
I like what he's doing, at least the idea of it.I mean most all of us are doing the one for one thing. That is, we do this and get that in return. We make a sign, letter a truck, whatever, and we get paid for that job. My most vivid recolection/example is a welder I once saw. He was called out to make a cowcatcher for a steam locomotive being restored. He did a great job. He measured, figured, cut, and welded. Got paid and left. But when is he likely to EVER do that again???
All that measuring, designing, (multiple angles) and now it's on to the next job. Even if you're silkscreaning, you're filling an order for a customer. If you work by the hour, you trade one hour of time and effort for a given amount of pay.
The cost of living in this country can be staggering sometimes, but still, compared to other countries, where there is no money and little hope, sometimes I feel like I ought to be able to grab 'holt' of the thing, do SOMETHING with this time and place. But usually, I end up paying the bills. An occaisional new tool here and there. But nothing close to what I'm talking about. Sometimes it feels like negligence.
So I've thought about it. It seems like the only way to do something is to break out of the one for one. Mass production. It could be writing a book. Even top paid salespeople rely on repeat customers for much of thier income.
I guess I could build a large company, play the stock market, other ways to break out, but I really find what this guy's doing is interesting. Maybe he even has some fun figuring out the new messages. He's trying to break out, go for it!
I don't want to say something contrary to the obvious, but is it posible that he has more than one way of making these signs? I once talked to a store owner. He said it was difficult knowing what will sell, but you stock the shelves, and when something sells, re-order two of those.
Is it possible that he makes a bunch of designs, offers those, then cuts and applies those by hand until they become a big enough seller, then switches that design over to silkscreening? 1,2,3: Offer designs of signs that don't exist, make vinyl copies of less popular ones, and screen the more popular ones. It could be a process.
Also, aren't there digital printers that would print on these little signs?
Whatever the case, it's similar to things I'm doing, only miles ahead.
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
OK, this guy has it figured out pretty well I'd say. I went to the site a few times. Man, he's got a ton of listings! One time I logged on there were a number of pages with only a few minutes left before closing. There were only a handful of bids too. To me it didn't seem like he could even break even. I sell stuff from time to time on e-bay and was going by what my listings cost. I delved a little further and looked at the cost of an e-bay store like he has. $500 a month and the listings go for a couple of cents with a 5.25% commission to e-bay. From what I saw, most folks were getting these items at $14.95, the starting bid he has on them. Hey, if it works for him, more power to him. Posted by Mike Pulskamp (Member # 3475) on :
Anyone try asking him how he does it and how it is working out for him? If nobody else has yet I might...
'bet he doesn't even make those "signs".
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
I asked him & invited him to come tell us
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
just checked email & found his reply...
...ready to see how close any of us were to his assessment of his success:
quote:Dear islandsignshop,
You asked: "Hi there, your business has caught the attention of a Bb of sign makers & you success has spawned all sorts of speculation. You may find it interesting or funny, maybe somewhat condescending, but it may also be fun to reply yourself & set the story straight. We are all a VERY diverse bunch, but many many regulars who know each other & all have a general comraderie for he similarities we share as sign makers. check in if your interested... http://www.letterhead.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/33157.html"
I have read the forum and do find it funny and sad at the same time. Caluclate the eBay fees $97,000 last year, cost of materials, PayPal, and other expenses and you will see that except for the forth quarter we lose money. About all eBay does for us is act as a signpost to attract bulk orders. It is sad that because the business model looks so good it has caused dozens of shops to go broke.
Thank you, daddyhog
..so does this mean he is doing so well that he fears that any of us may find out the truth? Posted by Mikes Mischeif (Member # 1744) on :
So let me get this straight. I throw cash away (10,000) orders a year to get some "bulk orders". Suuuuuuu-Weeeeee! DaddyHog.
Posted by Deb Fowler (Member # 1039) on :
Gee FRED WEISS! I remember when I bought vinyl letters from you back in 1992!!!!!!! now this stirs up memories...I was tired of painting them all but the customers were asking for them. You were professional and delivered the product, and I was impressed how easy you made it for me. Even the suggestions of layouts were a wonderful courtesy just for buying the letters. It was a relief from handpainting the 11 years before, also. I guess I have to say you opened a new world for me, while I could still use my handpainting skills as well. Glad to see you doing so well still. How's Lisa?
Posted by Fred Weiss (Member # 3662) on :
Hi Deb,
We sold the wholesale vinyl cutting business to Lisa about 11 years ago. After a couple of years she moved it up to NW Pennsylvania and continues to supply many of our old customers while doing custom sign work in the local market.
Thanx for your kind words.
Posted by William Bass (Member # 4929) on :
Thanks for asking him Doug. That was a neat idea.
Posted by Bob Nugent (Member # 3743) on :
I guess being old, I remember most sign shops did a little of everything, and I would just set up silk screens for these signs and wack them out 100 at a time with just the cost of blanks and screen ink. First testing which signs moved and sold. I can't think of a better way to test than E-Bay. The world is your market. Ted Tucker, an old timer and a great guy, from Clearwater Fl. made a fortune selling signs to golf courses for all the signs that they used on the tees and around the course. I used to cut the silk screens by hand for these signs from his patterns and he would teach me lettering. Circa 1960. I always give credit to the guys that think outside the box and keep it simple. If the man on Ebay is making money, more power to him. If he isn't he will soon disappear.
Posted by Ricky Jackson (Member # 5082) on :
The trick is to find a niche market like this guy has and sell a product that you can design *once* and turn the order fulfillment over to a couple of high school kids like Fred said. If the volumn of the particular sign dictated it I would screen print them (and omit the reference to "tough vinyl lettering"). We do over twice this much a year but are always looking for ways to expand our product line and generate more and better sales. Ebay really charges 20%?!! Geeeez, and all for the price of an outside salesman! ...but then an outside salesman couldn't pitch his product to a bazillion people a day. It's all relative. At least he's not selling them for $9.99 each.
Posted by Barry Branscum (Member # 445) on :
I think he's fudging a bit on the numbers, don't you? He's gotta be doing pretty good with it. It would be waaay too much hassle to keep up with 1600 listings otherwise....
Posted by Fred Weiss (Member # 3662) on :
Not sure but have been told by a customer who's a regular on ebay that their rate is from 3% to 5%. Not sure how much more is going out to have an ebay store and would expect his biggest bill is the charges he has to pay to PayPal.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Rolling On The Floor]](graemlins/rolf.gif)