Quoting a customers that I have done a half dozen jobs for over the last year.
Quoting for 10 - double sided 19" x 24" x 10mil coroplast signs and 7 - double sided 24" x 32" x 10mil coroplast signs. Intermediate (2.8) vinyl. "Why, yes, he is a realtor...how'd ya' guess??"
Basically, the signs averaged out to $53 or so per sign, reguardless of size. He just called me to tell me that my competitor was $3 per sign higher than I but, the CALGARY shop he called quoted him $35 using the same coro/vinyl.
Tell me.....others here have experienced this. Others here are probably the hookers themselves...how do you do it and stay in business? How? How can I compete??
Posted by Stevo Chartrand (Member # 2094) on :
Sounds exactly like my last employer!! It was a bigger sign shop, pays the employees peanuts(they have gone through a few) and use the cheapest material possible. Bid lower than anybody to get the work then make up the loss on the bigger accounts they had. These guys were complete idiots when it came to that! I dont know how they make money.
I suspect the same scenario here because he went to a city shop. I know it sux man but stick to your guns!
Stevo
[ January 20, 2005, 08:02 PM: Message edited by: Stevo Chartrand ]
Posted by Peter Koriath (Member # 5410) on :
Tuff call,
Whats your overhead like? What do you want out of this ($$)? Are you sure he's using the same vinyl? Are his suppliers extending him more discount based on past history? What's his delivery?
Sell him yourself, not the sign. Build a relationship with this guy, so he knows what he can get.
You do seem a bit high. I would probably quote around the $40.00 to $45.00 each without seeing the artwork.
Brush it off if you don't get it. Lots of these guys are not worth the effort. 1 sign for 500 is probably less work and more rewarding.
My 2 cents
Posted by Jim Walz (Member # 2600) on :
Every year in the U.S. 1,000,000 people start their own business. But by the end of the year, at least 40% of them are out of business.
The best advice that I have ever been given is to leave low price to Walmart and figure out how to differentiate myself from the competition.
"Live by price, die by price."
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
Here's another scenario...
There is 1 shop here that I suspect is owned by daddy. Daddy has a successful business & I believe the sign shop has 2 purposes...
1. Keep kid outta daddy's hair
2. Provide a "loss" to offset the profit from the real business.
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Corey,
He's a realtor!
NEXT!
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
Thats what you expect when you get in a bid war with Coro....upgrade clients.
Posted by Corey Wine (Member # 1640) on :
Yes, I know, he's a realtor however, realtors know other realtors.......other commercial realtors. If I rub the right realtor the right way, I may get alot of illuminated signage out of it (silk screeners can't do that stuff!).....I may get referred and do some showhome parades including builder signage, flags and poles, installs. I am thinking "politics".....small city.
No worries........I will not whore myself out. I did sharpen my pencil though Peter and got 'er to $45.53 per.
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
About 7 years ago, I heard of two shops that were doing a pair of magnetic signs for $25. I thought, man that is nuts!
But a friend told me they were doing them as a loss leader, to hook the client on bigger orders. He told me that at least one of the guys had a "jig" set up in his computer, that he could quickly pull up and fit the clients name, number, etc in and knock the signs out real fast.
Now that I know more (some) about plotting from a PC, I'm wondering if this wasn't like a layers thing in Corel. Layer 1 would have some horizontal lines on it, and the standard size of the mags sold in the 'special' would be the drawing page. Drawing and printing(plotting) would be done from layer 2?
Super basic copy, basic font, this guy might knock these out "in his sleep".
Come to think of it though, maybe you're talking about a specified font, colors, logo, etc? A little harder to do than the above.
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
If you give them a cheaper price this time, don't be surprised when everytime from here on in they beat you up with "so and so will do it cheaper"
Posted by Laura Butler (Member # 1830) on :
I just went thru this too. We quoted a 4x4 MDO real estate sign. A few days went by and I didn't hear anything, so I called the Realtor and they told me that they were able to get it done for half the cost.
[ January 20, 2005, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: Laura Butler ]
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
The only way to deal with Realtors is when they come in and make a deposit. You may think they will lead you into their group and sell to others. But no way. It won't happen.
Posted by Monte Jumper (Member # 1106) on :
move on!
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Like Monte said...move on!!!
Sharpening the pencil on $45 jobs is not worth it...Save the pencil sharpening for the $450-$4500 jobs....They are the ones you can whittle down by a few bux to get the contract, and still be worth it.
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
I think it would be better to deal with property managers...yes they are realtors but they manage large properties and office complexes. One sign company I worked for did sizable design/build projects. PS Business Parks, Arden Realty, CB Richard Ellis, Trammell Crow, Cushman & Wakefield, Equity Office, Trizec Properties Inc, Grubb & Ellis, are a few major companies that do Commercial/Industrial real estate where monument signs, ADA, fire safty and malls use. There are many more...a good source....
just takes a little foot work and looking past the coro stuff.
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
Think of it with a "steak" VS "fast-food" mentality.
McDonald's sells 'food' at MUCH cheaper prices than your local well-known, hi-dollar steak house. And both have waiting lines . . .
How does McD's do it?? They buy at cheap-quantity price, sell cheap food, cooked quickly. They are selling speed, convenience and price ...3 things humans can get addicted to easily. . .therefore, customers will tolerate this food's description as 'good', 'just AS good', or 'OK'.
You on the other hand, might want to sell steaks. How do the hi-dollar steak houses stay so busy yet are actually open less hours than the fast food joint??? The answer is, they have to provide for what steak eaters want: Quality. People who want a quality meal don't mind waiting a little. They KNOW quality takes time. They understand Quality is custom and they can get they're 'steak' anyway the want it cooked as long as it's perfect. They know they quality costs more and are happy to pay for it . . .they will describe this food as 'excellent', 'Top-grade' and, 'cooked to perfection'.
So . . .Corey, we all have to ask ourselves: Are we gonna be the hi-end, top quality steak-house with the waiting list, a few evenings a week??
Or the fast-food-junk-pusher with the long lines ALL day??
Mabey just be a great little BBQ joint with in-house dining & take out, and go both ways?? LOL! Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
Now I'm hungry......
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
Something else to consider. It's not uncomman today for people to have a part time at home business. For them, an extra 10-20 grand a year is all they need for those extras in life.
I started out that way. After working for others at 5 dollars an hour, 10 bucks seemed like bonus and $20 was a fortune. We had all the benefits of my day job, plus the extra income from signs.
That's not all. Having a business on the side meant a real savings in income tax. It was the best of both Worlds and Barb was able to stay home with the kids. If you don't mind working all the time, it's really not that bad a deal.
When things changed and the sign biz had to pay all the bills, it wasn't long before reality set in. One day we read an article about Determining An Hourly Shop Rate. At that time, our figures showed we had to more than double our current shop rate just to have the same income working for others provided. That's the breaking point! Many will simply disappear or raise their prices.
We cannot let others decide what sort of lifestyle we want. You cannot compete with the part time shop on price alone. Find your own niche and concentrate on that. Getting angry about things you cannot control will only lead to bigger probs.
Just my 2 cents.
Posted by William Holohan (Member # 2514) on :
Corey, I have taken the agony out of priceing for my boss. I am primarily a business coach in this shop. First change was the purchase of ESTIMATE. This allows us to give each client a very professional looking, precise, item by item estimate. Shop rate figured out to be $60 hr. No jobs priced "off the top of our heads" All jobs run through Estimate. Minimum for any job, no matter how small $50.00 Even for the "Church Lady and especially for the Realtor". Maximum discount on any single sign, set of channel letters, etc is 5%, period. I read a very interesting analysis of how commercial clients percieve discounts from suppliers of custom produced products. Sign, floor displays, etc. The shop owner gives the client a 15% discount and thinks, "That should get me this work." The client thinks, "This shop owner just tried to overcharge me by 15%. Yes, we have had a few, and I mean just a few, clents walk out the door. (Be Gone Tire Kicker!) You have to convey to the customer up front that they have come to the "quality sign company, not the cheap sign company". We agreed upon the above set of rules/standards and stick to them. Slow time? Hit the road and sell work that can make you a profit. DO NOT deep discount just to stay busy. Set a radius for cold sales calls. Say 50 miles. Drive for an hour to pull down a nice, high profit job? You bet you would, or should. Have a nicely lettered shop van? Wife/girlfriend going grocery shopping or to the mall? "Hey Honey, take the van!" Keep you name "In their face" at every opportunity. Real slow times? Tag team that van down town. Leave it on main street for a couple of hours, go pick it up and move it to a mall. Wait if you have to, to get it near the front entrance. Drive in circles if you have to til you get a good spot. Industrial park nearby. Ditto. Price it right. Build it right. Profit right.
Posted by Corey Wine (Member # 1640) on :
It turns out the other guy is using the cheap caledared. I let my customer know.
Dave..yes, the reason I sharpend my pencil was because it is $45 (X17). Rick/Sheil..It is not a question of getting out of the coro side of the industry. There's good bread and butter to be made there. Living in -40c temps, I know that they can withstand alot. They are light weight, durable and don't need to be painted. They are cheap for the customer and I never use 4mil!!! But, I think the important thing is versatility..I window splash, make sandblasted signs, vehicle graphics, dibond, lexan, wood.....everything but electrical. Yes, I like squeeking in a $700 over the course of a day and a half while I also plug away at the 3/4" MDO billboard. Coroplast -- my employees gotta learn somewhere!! Steve - No they are not a side business, they are quikkie stikkie and have been there a while (longer than I). Still with the vinyl difference, I still can't match their price. I told my customer the difference but that I would not use the stuff. William..got a truck, wife takes it everywhere. Her van is done up too. It is slightly noticable in a city of 20,000. There's somewhat of a pic on my web"PAGE".
Thanks for the comments...
Posted by Michael Latham (Member # 4477) on :
Now, around here the middle of the market Arby's resturant chain, famous for roast beef and a little pricier than mcd's, is now offering PRIME RIB! Almost the same cost as real sit down fancy resurant but with plastic forks and plates. I've not had it yet, but it looks great.
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
quote:Originally posted by Corey Wine: Yes, I know, he's a realtor however, realtors know other realtors.......other commercial realtors. If I rub the right realtor the right way, I may get alot of illuminated signage out of it (silk screeners can't do that stuff!).....I may get referred and do some showhome parades including builder signage, flags and poles, installs. I am thinking "politics".....small city.
No worries........I will not whore myself out. I did sharpen my pencil though Peter and got 'er to $45.53 per.
Oh geez, I was going by this comment, I guess I misunderstood.
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
. . .like I said Corey . . .you're a natural fine steak house kind'a guy . . . and hey, you can always fix up a hamburger 'plate to go' for those diners who are too 'nitty' to eat-in cause they can't afford the main entree` or they're scared they might haft'a leave a tip . . . .
Don't be like Arby's . . .they're just 'wanna-be' fine dining establishments . . .this can NOT be done without quality anemities such as silverware and service people . . . Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
and I'm still hungry......
Posted by Corey Wine (Member # 1640) on :
I am not Micky D's or Chez Paris'. Perhaps closer to a TGIFridays.
Posted by Duncan Wilkie (Member # 132) on :
This started out as a private email to Sheila, but I decided to post it. I quess I needed to vent too.
Sheila, signdog passes oneshot a frosty glass of coffee (everything is frosty in this town
Your comparison of our industry to the restaurant business was spot on!. Way to go! I must say it's troubling being called a hooker unless I'm fishing. I guess that's what I am though, because I have on occasion "given away" a sketch, plain screwed up a quote, kept my staff on with borderline work so they didn't have to go home, purposely used the universal "loss leader" theory (as an experiment...I hate this ploy) My wife Laurie and my sole income comes from this high risk low reward business. We have 3 employees who virtually never get sent home for lack of work. (I know I'm a lousy business man along with being a hooker). We've done this for 20 years with up to 9 employees. We've paid countless thousands in taxes...heck we've paid about $1,000,000 in rent alone. Until this year we have not had more than 10 days holiday in a year. I've made less than minimum wage with no bennefits at times. I could go on, but I've made my point. My wish is that people think about what they say before they put it to "paper" for all the world to see. I hold no grudge towards anyone on this board, and I guess it's okay to vent ourselves here...after all we are "family". I guess I get emotional when someone calls my family names.
Thank you Barb and Steve for this daily family re-union. Posted by Corey Wine (Member # 1640) on :
Hey Rick, Yep, not gonna HO myself out meant not gonna lowball..not, not gonna do coroplast at all. THere's alot of $$ there too!
Cheers.
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
. . .lol . . .you sed well man . . .your success speaks for itself. "
"Have bone-will growl"
I pass one of my favorite sayings on to you man:
"I'm a easy dog to hunt with unless the hunter is abusive . . ."
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
I find Jan/Feb are usually pretty slow months here - I've also noticed that a lot of shops are way low at this time of year - I don't blame them - better to break even than have to lay off employees. The Coroplast market always has a very big pricing range. Try and educate your customers to the fact that some places are using it as a lure, or working to break even over the slow times and that you just can't compete with them - they will respect you for it - if you just whine and badmouth the competition, you can bet they won't be as likely to come back. I always try to think about what I would think as a customer in these situations and guage my reactions by that. They may go elsewhere for this one - but they are much more likely to come back if you maintain your dignity and leave a favorable impression. That being said - I know it sucks!
Posted by Corey Wine (Member # 1640) on :
Well put Kelly. Yeh, the guy called to tell me that I was way higher and that he'd like to give me the business "but".......
That being said, I told him I won't low ball and NO BIG DEAL...I quote jobs for $6000 and the customer says, "No need to give me a price, just do it." And, other times I quote $30 for a crappy sign and the customer goes berzerk and tells me I am too high. There are alot of different people out there. Saying that usually makes them have to make a decision......Am I a cheapo or am I gonna let Corey do my work knowing it'll be done right and should not worry about price!!
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
I keep bangin' my head against the wall on this one Corey.
"Half a dozen jobs over the last year.."
and now the guy is busting your chops over price?
Hmmm this leads me to two thoughts:
1. It's always ONLY been about price, so how many other shops are doing other work for him because they're the lowest on that particular type of work?
2. He's completely full of crap and is only feeding you false lowball prices to get you to come down on yours. In the back of his head he's thinking "I bring this guy all kinds of work all the time and now I should get some sort of break."
These "nickel and dime" customers need to be taught they are DISPENSIBLE. Yeah they might bring some much needed bread and butter type work in but we shouldn't have to put up with their antics. There's only so much abuse we can take, especially when it's on a daily basis.
Even McD's has its standards on dealing with problem customers - they DON'T! I used to work at a McD's back in highschool and we refused to serve so many arrogant people and toss 'em right out of the store that the police showing up was a daily occurrence - and this was in a quiet little suburban town of 4,000 people (right along a major interstate).
That's where I learned, if McD's - the whore of the fast food industry, won't put up with crap from customers, nobody should!
Posted by Ricky Jackson (Member # 5082) on :
Did you know that if you lined up all the realtors in America, end to end, across the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean... that it would be a good thing? Posted by Dan Streicher (Member # 4515) on :
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)