Just got the latest issue of Signcraft, which includes a pricing guide. After browsing through it, I was shocked. If I were to follow this thing, I'd be out of business in a year. The pricing is all over the place (from ridiculously high to frighteningly low). Anyone else have any comments?
[ January 13, 2005, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: Tim Whitcher ]
Posted by mike meyer (Member # 542) on :
Already used it, got a big job from using it, I like it. Thank you SignCraft!!!
Posted by Bill Diaz (Member # 2549) on :
I know what you mean, Tim.
We've always made our own, and use the pricing guides to help set up ours. Some categories we drop out altogether. But like with screen printing which I hate doing and have never been good at, I could never make a dime with the prices listed. We would make a fortune in the areas of our expertise, though. Jane's got it set up so you can easily change prices when needed.
I think it's a good idea to keep consistent prices and avoid horse trading. If people are trying to beat you down, you can point to the guide and say that it wouldn't be fair to other customers to give them a special deal, and if they don't like that, we have learned they will make a bad customer. I say, "show 'em the door and sic the dog on 'em."
Posted by Bob Stephens (Member # 858) on :
Pricing is relative and subjective to every individual because every one places a different value on their own self worth.
What some may consider expensive, I might consider cheap. Also there are no absolutes in pricing if two people sell two different kinds of quality and work. Rarely do shops get to quote on identical specs especially in regard to custom work.
Still the biggest difference I notice in regards to pricing by others is their absolute belief that they can't possibly charge a higher price for their procuct because Joe Blow down the street will do it cheaper.
You would be surprised at the prices you can get if you would only ask for it. More often than not, it's not about selling a sign but rather about selling yourself.
[ January 13, 2005, 09:55 AM: Message edited by: Bob Stephens ]
Posted by Mark Smith (Member # 298) on :
Go Bob! You nailed it.
And go SignCraft!
I have spent little time with the pricing guide so far, but I like what I see. As usual SignCraft has pumped up the educational aspect and is teaching very valuable lessons in their guide.
I can't recommend more highly that people read and absorb what SignCraft is communicating - about salesmanship, knowing your costs and developing your hourly rate among other things.
Get a copy right away if you don't have it yet!
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
I would never price out of a guide, anyways it is a guide right? I do like to find out prices from many sources, a guide being one. Just one more tool to figure out my own final price.
It would be nice to have someone tell us what to charge and take away that doubt we have about what to charge, but that ain't going to happen.
Posted by Jane Diaz (Member # 595) on :
Bill said it right. I make our own guide similar to what they have, but I really have been comparing mine to theirs as I update this year. Some of ours are high, some low but the things I like about their guide: -The way they show you in the front to determine your shop hourly rate and then select from the different colored catagories based on that. -The examples to show a customer. "Here is simple. Here is complex." Really, in the customer's mind, many times, they THINK what they have is simple....till you can show them. This guide's photos make it easier to explain. -The catagories/types of substrates are well explained and easy to understand. I think it's a great job, SignCraft! And if someone DOESN'T seem to agree, make your own for your shop! At least they have given a reference of where to start. I will still use my own pricing guide, but this one will tucked inside mine. I will also use theirs to check difference with mine and adjust some areas, add some ideas, simplify mine....As Martha would say..."it's a good thing!"
[ January 13, 2005, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: Jane Diaz ]
Posted by mike meyer (Member # 542) on :
I used it like a GUIDE as well....I didn't go EXACTLY by each dollar..but it's sure a good tool to have when talking to the customer and show them instead of a tiny little book.
Posted by BrianTheBrush (Member # 1298) on :
Tim,
If you look at the guide, it's SUPPOSED to be all over the place. It's broken down into several ranges of pricing, based on labor rate. (Personally, ours actually fell in between two of those rates, so in checking myself on some recent jobs, I split the difference between two charts, and was amazingly on target).
It is just a guide. It's certainly the best put-together guide I've ever seen. I like the way they arrived at the price structures.
And Bob...like Mark said, you hit the nail right on the head. You can only charge what you have the balls to charge, every customer (and customer relationship) is different.
A phrase I've used for years, when working for the company I do trade shows for, is "NOTHING in this world is bought - EVERYTHING is sold".
Kudos to SignCraft on their efforts.
(And aren't those ads on the inside cover and first page really well - designed?!!)
Posted by William DeBekker (Member # 3848) on :
I really enjoyed it and and gave me a sense where our prices are.. Like normal we were all over the place some in the yellow which concerned me and some in the violet wich made me smile. It stills makes me wonder about maganetics (Which I hate and do very little of) use more material and charge less money then doing it right on the vehicle. But overall I thought it was pretty good.
Posted by Bill Diaz (Member # 2549) on :
And if some of my competitors are reading this post, maybe they can get a copy of the magazine and use this guide rather than call me and ask me what they should charge for this or that. I mean what did you do before I was around?
I always have the feeling it's "well Bill gets x$'s for a job like that, but I can do it for $1 less.
It reminds me of the time a competitor had a paint failure on non-enamel receptive vinyl banner and had the audacity of telling his customer that I told him to do it that way. Luckily the customer thought it was strange that he would blame the failure on my advice and called us to find out if it was true -- which of course it wasn't.
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
I like the guides to keep myself in check. Sometimes material prices creep up on us and we don't register that, just keep quoting our normal price, in turn taking $ out of our own pockets.
It's also nice when quoting something you don't do a lot of to check the guide. If you're way off, chances are you forgot something.
Now, I've been struggling to read those little guides for years and I just get frustrated. Some of them, I wonder what body orifice they pulled that price out of. This Signcraft guide is so much more easily understood, Thank you Signcraft!
Posted by Kimberly Zanetti (Member # 2546) on :
Anyone need a copy? You can't have my SignCraft but I don't need the pricing guide. If you didn't get one and would like mine, let me know and I'll mail it to you. Just got it a few minutes ago.
(Someone snagged it...)
[ January 14, 2005, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: Kimberly Zanetti ]
Posted by Tim Whitcher (Member # 685) on :
First off, who works for $40.00 an hour shop rate anymore (even if home based and in the Appalacians)! The top hourly rate of $85.00 is not realistic either. I doubt too many shops in L.A. can do less than $90.00. The ONLY way to price your work is by time & material, based on ALL overhead expenses, mark up on material, and profit margin. Even at the top rate (by the "guide") I'm charging 30% more for vehicle lettering, and 25% more for a basic 3x6 banner. They should've stopped at the page that shows you how to calculate your shop rate, in my opinion.
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
Kudos to SignCraft! Pricing is a minefield of disparate opinions, which is why so few publications attempt to publish any sort of guide, and most avoid it at all costs. There are a lot of things in the guide I don't necessarily agree with, but the attempt to offer some sort of rational guidelines shows that the publishers of Signcraft DO care that their customers are making a decent living.
To me, the most valuable part of the guide was the shop-rate calculator. Because I limit myself to specific types of work, a lot of catagories don't really apply to me - but SignCraft is trying to cover all the bases, and not doing a half-bad job of it.
Posted by Mark Matyjakowski (Member # 294) on :
I'm missing something here (not unusual) Boss takes the mail then throws the SC in the break room, then I'm the only one in the shop who reads it (collects it) Saw an ad for it but haven't seen it. Did he grab the pricing guide before the magazine made the breakroom, was it only in some, is it hidden somewhere in between the pages, does it bug anyone else that with all the beautiful signs in the magazine a digital print (of a very nice design) is pictured on the cover?
Posted by Dana Bowers (Member # 780) on :
THANK YOU and GREAT JOB to the Signcraft folks!
Starting back up again, it's really tough for me to quote prices... so this guide was PERFECT timing!!!
I really think that the tier pricing is great... but even better, how it's broken down for the different hourly rates (which is to me more like locality pricing).
While I understand and respect your opinion, Tim, I think it's a bit harsh to say that it's so far off, that it shouldn't have been done. Then people like me would be out a great tool.
Not to beat a dead horse, so to speak, but as much as I think it's wonderful you get such a high rate for everything, I also wish my house would sell for as much as yours. But in reality, no such luck! Then again, there are probably folks out there with vehicle payments close to my mortgage payment! Posted by thom miller (Member # 1845) on :
I've decided to use the "Yellow Pages" pricing guide. Check this out...For an ad that measures 2.5" x 3.75" you pay about $200/month. That equals $21.33/ sq. inch. Sooooooooooooooo a 4'x 8' sign is 4608 sq. inches x $21.33= $98,288.64! (per month) And that's for one color! Show that to the customer who thinks you charge too much.
Posted by Stephen Faulkner (Member # 2511) on :
you can't get them prices 'round here Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Hey, Geet...
I do get them kind of prices around here.
Still working on OKC...
Posted by BrianTheBrush (Member # 1298) on :
Ok Tim...
You were emphatic about "materials and labor" being the only way to charge. So I HAVE to share one of my theories. This isn't any personal jab by the way...
The sign business is a grass-roots form of advertising. In many ways, signage and vehicle graphics are the backbone of a company's advertising program.
With that in mind, I've always preached in my seminars, that there is a THIRD factor that has to be incorporated into our pricing. I call it "The Derivative Factor". That is, what the customer gets out of it.
Materials+Labor+Derivative Factor.
Case in point: If I charge $1,000.00 to letter a van for an electrician. I don't have that invested in either labor or materials. But I AM providing him with about 36 square feet of advertising, that's working 24 hours a day, whether he's in the van or not. And it'll still be there, working, when he's used up that van in five or six years, and gets ready to buy a new one.
Take $1,000 to your local newspaper, and see what it buys. MAYBE three column inches on the third page of the sports section on a Thursday.
So in that respect, that $1,000.00 becomes a bargain.
And on the subject of Labor rates. I also believe, though it doesn't work for everyone; that our "labor rate" has to be a "guide"...but not gospel. If a job takes me six hours to complete in June, and I charge that client, based on my labor rate, and then between June and December, I get better at what I'm doing (you should always be honing your skills, finding more expediant methods of producing, etc.) and can complete that same job in five hours...should I sell it for less money? Not in my shop.
I think a labor rate should be used as a guide, or indicator; but not as a steadfast rule.
Keep on keepin' on.
Brian
Posted by Tim Whitcher (Member # 685) on :
What you call the derivative factor, I've always referred to as perceived value (example, a customer perceives the value of having his truck doors lettered as higher than the value of a pair of magnetics, although the magnetics have a higher material cost, and practically the same labor). I always figure that into my profit margin (after materials and labor). Local market value sometimes has to be considered as well, specially when dealing with generic type sign work (basic letters on a substrate). And as far as improving your rate of production, I'd do one of two things, raise my hourly shop rate, or take the time off (or maybe use the time to expand my business). That's why I hate pricing guides. It's the "Hey, I don't even have to think about it, the price to charge must be right, it's in my Signcraft pricing guide"! I know that most signcrafters don't approach it this way, but I feel way too many newbies do. That hurts the industry. That's my last post on this subject. I was just interested in the differing views.
[ January 14, 2005, 09:19 AM: Message edited by: Tim Whitcher ]
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
The problem Tim has with the Signcraft guide is that he sees it from his own perspective (the only real point of view available to any of us). Tim sounds like he has a pretty good handle on the value of his work, but The sad fact is that an awful lot of people in this business don't - they are giving away work, with little or no idea what their real costs are, or how to break the cycle of working insane hours to make a sub-standard income. You all know who these people are - everything is a complaint, and they are obsessed with everyone else's pricing and policies while giving little real thought to their own.
Mike Jackson describes these folks as "Yes Butters" - in any discussion about changing their attitude and raising their prices, they will search out any flaw and focus on it as an excuse to not change anything, starting their argument with "Yes, but..."
We've all heard the litany... "You can't get that kind of money around here". "I don't have any kind of market for signs like that". "My customers are all a bunch of cheap SOBs". "All the quicky-stickies have ruined the market", and on and on. If you persist in offering examples or explanations of how things can work differently, they get resentful and suspicious - and you are seen as either a liar or an egomaniac, which allows them to justify rejecting anything you say.
If a pricing guide from a respected source like Signcraft can help break a few people out of this kind of self-defeating attitude, it will have been more than worthwhile.
Posted by Jane Diaz (Member # 595) on :
I did notice one problem...I think. When this guide is talking about Aluminum (pg. 24-25) the 3X6' or 18 sq. ft. price is LESS than the 2X8' or 16 sq ft. price. Maybe I am missing something? Is there a reson for this or is this just an error?
Posted by BrianTheBrush (Member # 1298) on :
That brings up another interesting point, Jane. I don't have my pricing guide here in my office today, so I can't comment on any problems with the table(s)...BUT
So often, I see people get so tied to the "by the square foot" pricing structure, that they fail to take substrate yields into account. I can shear a 4x8 Sheet of aluminum into two 2x8's. But I can only get one 3x6 out of that same sheet.
Also, at a given "by the square foot" price, one could be mislead into believeing that two 2x8's should be priced the same as a 4x8. (even if they convey the same message...)
What it boils down to, from my perspective anyways, is that pricing, (which is certainly one of the most important facets of this trade that gets overlooked) is best grasped through experience. There's no substitute for seat time.
How many times have we all had the customer that asks for a price to letter a tow truck..than he asks us how much for three of them? So many times, people will instinctlively start discounting the work based on volume. Yet, volume discounts really only apply to situations where we "set up a job and walk away from it".
Offset printers can do that. We can't. We have to either cut, weed, tape and apply each job, with our own two hands, one at a time...or we have to pounce, paint, size, gild or outline, one at a time.
Pricing is the ultimate oxymoron. It's as straightforward as the New York State thruway, and yet every one of us makes that wrong turn from time to time.
I still think that of all the attempts I've seen in the last 25 years to "establish a guideline" for pricing, SignCraft has done the best job of presenting it properly. If nothing else, they've gotten a few people discussing it.
I'm gonna have lunch now. Can't figure out why a turkey sandwich, with pepperjack cheese, onions and a little itailian dressing costs over four freakin' bucks though!!??
Brian
Posted by Harris Kohen (Member # 2139) on :
Thats cheap Brian. Come on down to Jersey and buy that same sandwich. It would cost you Six bux and you dont even get a salad with it or a pickle.
Posted by Mikes Mischeif (Member # 1744) on :
I think the guide is for Newbies, and for sign people in the business who won't figure thier rates. It's a shotgun approach to a specific science. It's a start. It's not gospel.
My prices have gone up not due to "overhead". They went up when I got a shop. They went up again when I got married and wanted my wife to quit work. They went up again when we had our First baby last year.
I will continue to increase the pricing until I can't sell the stuff anymore. Find the ceiling in your own market, you're there. But if your market prices don't provide you with the income you deserve, it's time to search for a new market.
I find I can get much higher prices at the Mercedes dealeships than I can at the Kia dealers.
Same sign, different markets. It's simple.
Posted by Kimberly Zanetti (Member # 2546) on :
quote:Can't figure out why a turkey sandwich, with pepperjack cheese, onions and a little itailian dressing costs over four freakin' bucks though!!??
Labor cost. They're much cheaper when you make them yourself!
Posted by Adrienne Morgan (Member # 1046) on :
Waiting for my copy anyday now (if Kimberly got hers, that means west coasters are getting them now )
I'm still referring to a '99 copy, and finding some prices a bit high for my area....wonder how that will compair to the new one!
Does anyone really charge that trip fee to deliver within town??? A:)
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
I offer delivery through a service. I can tack on a extra service fee but the customer thinks they are getting a better deal than if I charged them the same amount and delivered it myself.
I think SignCraft did an excellent job. It really shoots holes in the one price fits all theory so popularized by people selling their own versions of pricing guides. I never did agree with that position because I do believe that regional pricing exists. So does McDonald's and WalMart.
I like how they used four different shop rates for the guide. They actually used real life survey information when they put this together. Imagine that! Booyeah!
I think that a lot of people will be using it to their advantage. There will be that bottom feeding mentality that will creep in again but we don't hang with the bottom feeding crowd so who cares.
I think Brian's points are well thought out and I also agree with Tim's observations. Yeah, I can sit on a fence as well as anybody.
Kudos to SignCraft!
Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
I really thinks its a great tool, not just for newbies either. Some of us that have been in the business for quite some time can make use of it too. I looked over the guide when it first came in, and thought they really did a great job. I intend to use it to my advantage. Like Cam said, it shows Signcraft really cares about its subscribers. Posted by Al Checca (Member # 2216) on :
For what it is worth I’ll add my comments. We are known as a high end shop in our area pretty much by the community. I did at one time come up with our own “Price list” for a quick look type of signs. We called other shops in our area asking her prices then we came up with the Materials and labor number then take a times that buy 2.5 or 3.5 depending on the job. The funny thing for us is folks say you can’t get that price but yet we do all the time. We give a premium service for a premium service. You put our work next to the guy down the street and we at least like to think it is superior. We give them what they pay for, a top notch job. They keep coming back even after knowing they can get it cheaper elsewhere. If you hold your price…At least in this area you can get your numbers but you have to go the extra step and give them something worth it! Posted by Chris Lovelady (Member # 2540) on :
i think that the pricing guide is a good tool to see what other people are charging across the country. but what is important thing in my town is a "what the market will bear". based on overhead cost...cost of goods...gas...rent..insurance... ect.. i live in florida and i am 4 mlies from georgia, the land is cheaper the taxes are less and the cost of rent is less. they get less for the same product up there. the important part of any pricing is cost of good , over head and "profit".
the "estamate" program has helped and change our buiness...it has taken the guess work out of it....also we don't get that " are you sure that is your best price" customers any more. also it is capable to import estimates into quick books.we can give prices over the phone also it cuts down on the time it takes to estimate a job thus frees your time for production.
chris
Posted by Barb Schilling (Member # 13) on :
Boy am I glad I turned into Letterville today! I was just pricing a job for a custom refurbish on some damaged antique fire wagon scrolls in Gold Leaf, and I was nervous about charging "time and materials" since it comes out about 25% higher than when I piece-meal the price based on # of large scrolls, # of small scrolls and # of inches of stripes. And that is at only $45.00 per hour labor charge! Guess I will not hesitate to charge the "time and materials" price now, since that is what I told the customer in the first place anyways. If he doesn't like it, he won't ask me to repair his damaged antique fire wagon next time he dumps it off the trailer on the way to a marketing event. Not that he could find anyone else around here to do it. Guess I figure my gold leaf scrolls are worth $45.00 per hour at least.
Has anyone done a serious comparison with the Signwriter Publishing Co Sign Contractors Pricing Guide? I have been using it as a GUIDE for years and years. It has saved me MANY hours pricing jobs, and I think it helped me raise my prices and be more consistant.
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Gosh, Barb... your work is worth more than that. You guy's work is far superior to just about anyone else's work in your area.
I bet he wouldn't question the master wagon maker's price on fixing it. Why should he question a true craftsman's work when repairing something like the gold leaf?
I hope the new shop is working good for you two!
Editted because my brain works faster than my fingers...
[ January 18, 2005, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Bowers ]
Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :
It cracks me up when people say that we can't get those prices here. I hear people talk about big city prices, or small town prices, always assuming big city prices are higher. The little city of Green Bay is 120 miles from me, the closest big city near me. The nearest city with a sign supplier is Milwaukee, 4.5 hour drive.
I pay the same telephone rates, insurance rates, electric rates, higher gas rate, the same for materials, then more because it has to be shipped here... (no running down to the supplier to grab a 4x8 of DiBond). My food is more, gasoline is higher. Why should signs be CHEAPER???
If every sign shop in the country started charging say $750.00 for a basic semi truck lettering job, they'd pay it. What could they do. And our industry would have some respect again. The general public thinks we all just stick on them stickers and don't think there is any value to what we do any more.
As far as the guide is concerned, I use them all as a guide. I time my work and get materials cost plus markup, labor rate and profit, and am i the process of doing like Jane and Bill, making my own guide for my shop.
Posted by Randy Campbell (Member # 2675) on :
I have been tring to use the pricing guides since 1990 and always had to lower my price.Seemed theirs was way to high.The one that came with my Signcraft seems to be way more in line with "MY" overhead.Thank you Signcraft. Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
The only things I have been able to sell, at prices comparable to the Signwriter's guide, are sandblasted and routed projects. I haven't been able to do it with anything vinyl simply because the average customer shops around and finds that other shops are much cheaper for the "same product",
But I used my guide, hourly rate, and job costing to come up with a price structure for those types of work, and sandblasted as well, set up on Excel spread sheets. I simply open Excel, punch in the size of the sign in the desired category, and it gives me prices with all the variables, options etc. Much more accurate than quick quesses, ballpark figures, and certainly quicker than pencil and calculator. I simply could not afford to buy one of the quote programs though I'm sure they're fabulous.
[ January 21, 2005, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
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And if someone DOESN'T seem to agree, make your own for your shop! At least they have given a reference of where to start. I will still use my own pricing guide, but this one will tucked inside mine. I will also use theirs to check difference with mine and adjust some areas, add some ideas, simplify mine....As Martha would say..."it's a good thing!" ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Not that he could find anyone else around here to do it. ![[Group Hug]](graemlins/grouphug.gif)