I've done a few Brochure layouts, but don't really push it. Not sure how to charge mostly, so if you design up nice brochures do you charge your same shop rate?
Thanks for the input...
Posted by Joe Rees (Member # 211) on :
I do. Others will disagree. I've found people tend to get what they pay for from me. There have been times I have given a flat rate for a design project and seriously regretted it. Doesn't seem to matter whether it's $100, $1000 or $10,000 - I'm going to EARN every dime anyway, so I prefer to go in at an hourly rate. I give an estimate, get a retainer, and get another installment payment if time starts to get too far past the original estimate.
Posted by Jack Keith (Member # 4499) on :
Hey Chuck;
I do just charge my per hour rate for brochure design, but I have a separate hourly rate for that compared to my shop rate. I realize I have most of my time invested in learning to use my computer effectively and I do have a buncha money invested in software. My rate for computer time is quite a bit larger than my shop time. That is no reflection on the quality of work I produce in the shop...I prefer to place more value on my skills as a designer.
I've seen your work...you're good...you should charge a rate that reflects your skill plus your investment in time and software...not to mention computers!
Jack "Did I spel that write?"
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
Hey Chuck
We do brochure layout. If the client buys the final brochures from us, we use the layout fee as leverage to entice them to buy more brochures. If they buy 5000 or more, the layout charges are waived. This works great as our profit on brochures is decent enough to do this. Plus, it's a great way to secure reorders.
This is a great market to get into, and not everybody can do it. I think you will do well. Go get em Chuck!
Posted by Dan Antonelli (Member # 86) on :
We charge about $1k for a tri-fold layout, not including stock photography, copywriting or printing. For an 11x17, we charge 2300-2800 roughly, again, not including stock photos and copywriting. We can go a tad lighter if we're doing the printing, which 9 out of 10 times, we are.
I wouldn't advocate charging per hour except for AAs. Why penalize yourself when you get faster at it, you'd be making less money on it in the future. That doesn't make sense to me.
Tri-folds take me about 3 hours or so to execute. We do so many of them, their like second nature to me. But I were billing by hourly then that would only equal about $375.
On my other site, www.landscapermarketing.com there a few tri-folds and 11x17 pdf's you can download. Also on my site www.graphicd-signs.com go to portfolio then marketing materials and you can see some others samples.
[ January 10, 2005, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: Dan Antonelli ]
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
My advice would be to listen to Dan. He has a proven track record of not only great design but a great business sense to back it up.
In my opinion, charging by the hour is risky. Not only are you conveying the message that the value of the brochure is simply your time in it, your client may not be able to understand why it took you x hours when he thinks you should be able to do it in x-1 hours. The guy that sells you your yellow page ad doesn't mention anything about how long it takes to produce and print your ad.
My first reaction to Dan's prices are "I couldn't get those prices around here"....but then I hear Mike Jackson whispering in my ear..."Have you tried?".
One other observation: Dan backs up his prices with great designs and layouts. You can't produce junk and expect top dollar.
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
Ditto Ray!
Posted by Chuck Gallagher (Member # 69) on :
Thanks All! So I can charge about 2500.00 for this! Cool! When I wake up from my dream that is...I think I need to move east. Hey Dan, need any help? Thanks again for the insight. Some day I'll make a living at this stuff!!!
Posted by Chuck Gallagher (Member # 69) on :
Dan,
Your work is awsome by the way.
Thanks
Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
Beautiful Job Chuck. You should be able to get more! I would listen to Dan too. From what I recall him mentioning of his past life, is the fact that he was a designer in the print media industry doing exactly this type of work. Just curious, who supplied the photos? they look great too. The one thing good about charging for great design is that it's not regional. Like Ray mentioned, have you tried to ask for more money? The worse that could happen is that the client says no.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
Posted by Dan Antonelli (Member # 86) on :
Yes, moving east might help... but remember here in NJ- we have the highest of everything - highest property taxes (I pay 12k a year), highest cost of living, highest housing costs, highest insurance rates, and I suppose, the highest layout and design costs!
So everything is relative. You cant buy a 'livable' house in NJ for under 250k. Now the smart thing for me would be to move to another less costly state and charge the same rates, as so much of our work is internet based anyway!
Posted by Dan Antonelli (Member # 86) on :
Yes, moving east might help... but remember here in NJ- we have the highest of everything - highest property taxes (I pay 12k a year), highest cost of living, highest housing costs, highest insurance rates, and I suppose, the highest layout and design costs!
So everything is relative. You cant buy a 'livable' house in NJ for under 250k. Now the smart thing for me would be to move to another less costly state and charge the same rates, as so much of our work is internet based anyway!
Posted by Stevo Chartrand (Member # 2094) on :
Nice work Chuck!!
Stevo
Posted by Jack Keith (Member # 4499) on :
Hi Chuck;
Yep...they're right...shouldn't charge by the hour...I really gotta look at changing the way I charge fer stuff!
Good design Chuck! You oughta be doing more of it!
And Dan...property tax here in the huge metropolis of Cabool (where both Chuck and have our shops) for my house that we just built that includes a 2000 sq basement shop / computer room / study is a whoppin' $863.00 per year. The house appraises for 260k but would go for a lot more where you are, I know. You can pretty much leave your house unlocked when you leave it and can pretty much leave the key in your car when you park it in town. We're getting people moving here from everywhere almost that want a simpler, safer life. So, like,...wanna move to Missouri? Can't speak for Chuck, although I'm sure he would join me in welcoming you!
Jack "Did I spel that write?"
Posted by Dan Antonelli (Member # 86) on :
863 a year -- sheesh---- I'd be happy to pay that per month.
Posted by Chuck Gallagher (Member # 69) on :
Hi Brian. Thanks for the compliment. I took the photos and did the product display....I do it all!!! I like doing these too and I think if you have a client base you should get your feet wet with it.
Thanks Dan for your input too. I've always stood in the shadows and watched your posts and layouts. I learned a lot from you, so thanks. More recently how to charge more and live in the midwest.....12K a year sheesh!
Thanks there Mr. Business Card!!! he he he
Hiya Jack,
You would think since we live about 15 minutes from each other I could get over there and visit someday. I'll work on that.
Since we're on a roll here's the final product for print. The customer was very happy, so that's a good sign.
Take Care All,
Posted by Chuck Gallagher (Member # 69) on :
I've been thinking about this cost of living difference between the east coast and the midwest, so if I'm doing this right it's about half for the most part. What you could charge for on the east we should be able to get atleast half? Which seems to be about right from what I can gather on design fees. My customer was quoted about 500.00 for pictures and layout from another ad agency.
Anyone else care to chime in on how much to charge for this type of work?
Good luck all...
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
I'm on the west coast, but this is more than just a cost of living issue. 500.00 would be way too cheap for any agency or design firm if they had to set-up and take the photos and layout this brochure. I would think with the photography, copy layout, misc. time for approvals and changes, print administration and office, it would be at least 20 hours total but would add a few just in case. I would price it at 2250-2500.00
Posted by Chuck Gallagher (Member # 69) on :
Thanks for the input Rick. I'll work my way up to that!
Posted by Dan Antonelli (Member # 86) on :
Chuck that layout looks really clean -- the revised one is fine.
I think I should clarify that when I'm talking about prices, that's assuming client to provide all photos --- we're not setting up shoots and hiring photographers. Of course, we can. But if I quote $1k for a tri-fold that assumes you're providing me with all photos, or we're purchasing stock photos at an additional feee (cost of photo plus at least 15% on top)
Posted by Peter Crossing (Member # 4009) on :
Thanks for all the informative posts, Dan.
Now we know how much to charge, my following question would be how can we come with great designs that justify the price?
I have recently started to mess around with Quarkxpress, Indesign, plus all the other Adobe software, and have realized that they are much more difficult to master than CasMate or even Flexisign.
And printing by itself is a complicated field even for experienced professionals. And website? I don't know about you, but try to do a flash animation and you will see how exhausting it can be.
I am amazed by the knowledge and skills Dan and all the other guys have, and are doing so well in all these seemingly related areas (which in actuality, belong to different industries in my view). So anyway, it looks like there is still quite a long way to go before we can charge those prices.
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
To me, it seems a natural progression that a sign shop provide various print and maybe even web services (at least farm out or recommend) if you are designing logos already. Designing a logo for only a sign shows the customer has short sighted marketing, and how can a sign shop sell other services it if they don't do it? To me, I can see more profitability at designing collateral materials than large format printing, since so many shops are getting into it at great cost and low return on the design time. As far as printing, there are great books on print production, but the easiest thing is asking the printer. I have print production experience but still ask questions to the printer. As far as the software, page layout programs are slightly different than vector layout programs, but a majority of small business will not need this type of program to do thier print materials, Illustrator is fine to do simple brochures, business cards and flyers. In time you will get the hang of the others In Design is fast becoming the new favorite for complicated page and catalog design. If you know Illustrator and Photoshop, In Design has the same basic feel.
Posted by Peter Crossing (Member # 4009) on :
Good points, Rick.
If you use Indesign to layout brochures and even full-color signs such as menus, you will not want to use any other software, not even Illustrator, which is intended for illustration as the name implies. It is extremely powerful and flexible. And Quark is not bad either.
But software skill is only half the battle, and as your knowledge grows, you will be craving for creative ideas, which is always in short supply.
It is a good thing that more and more sign shops are getting into print or web design in response to what the market demands. In this respect, Dan and a few others are really miles ahead of us.
[ January 13, 2005, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: Peter Crossing ]
Posted by Joe Rees (Member # 211) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dan Antonelli: I wouldn't advocate charging per hour except for AAs. Why penalize yourself when you get faster at it, you'd be making less money on it in the future. That doesn't make sense to me.
Are you calling me an AA? I resemble that buddy. Haha, Chuck I told you others would disagree.
In defense of myself, I can guarantee Chuck's very nice layout took far more than three hours. I've had initial meetings that took half that long. After thumbnails, photo research and initial drafts I'd typically be up to 6 hrs minimum before anything was even in the computer that could reviewed and edited. Then ther'd be inevitable changes, proofreading, photo manipulations and more meetings to discuss the alternate version. I'm very uncomfortable when my client has no penalty for indecisiveness and burning my time.
In cases where all this goes exceedingly smooth it's true the customer come's out ahead, but anything I have lost is chalked up to insurance. And hey, if it goes so well that I'm undervaluing the final product I'm not above padding the labor tally a little - if a thing normally could have and would have taken two hours I'll put down two hours even if it took 15 minutes. Not gouging, but I'm not going to take a bath on it either. Another way of looking at it is a sliding hourly rate...things I am extra fast at I charge more per hour for. I apply that same ethic to times I get stupidly stuck on some aspect of the creation process - if I feel I 'should' have been able to produce a thing in one hour but it took three, I'll charge the one.
Babble over.
Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :
i tend to agree with the hourly rate thing too. If a customer knows that there is a meter running, they may be less inclined to waste any more of my time than necessary.
One can only hope.
Maybe instill a minimum brochure charge, then an hourly rate. I do this with logos and layout jobs.
[ January 13, 2005, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: Janette Balogh ]
Posted by Tony Broussard (Member # 935) on :
I'm working on 2 - 17 x 11's right now. My business has progressed into more of a web design/full color business card type operation. I still do a few signs & lettering, but I'm happy with the new direction.
Just like learning the sign biz from here, I've been going to graphic design and photography sites to learn all I can. I provide a turnkey site and I sometimes do the photoshoots myself.
I've watched and learned from Dan Antonelli, (bought the book), but if you look at his philosophy of providing the client a one stop shop for everything they need. It's a hell of a convienence for clients. Especially the ones just starting a biz, you can get all the work that needs to be done.
I have a client who manufactures outboard engines. I did their website, working on a 17 x 11 brochure, engine decals, and have 4000 full color cards being printed right now.
I've even changed my name a bit to reflect the web biz, instead of Graphic Impact Signs & Designs, (which I still use for signs), I call it Graphic Impact Digital Media, it's more technical sounding. Image is everything and I want to be viewed as a professional web design firm.
Another thing is no materials to buy (or worry about failing). My supplier keeps calling me once a week to see if I need anything delivered on thier truck, but it's always a no answer. Kinda nice. Now I just buy the vinyl in the amount I need for the job.
I have one question Dan, is that fee just for design, or with design and prints?
[ January 13, 2005, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: Tony Broussard ]
Posted by Peter Crossing (Member # 4009) on :
Janette,
If it takes you 10 hours to finish a design currently, and in a year or two, you are getting better with computer and are more creative, and you are able to do the design in 3 hours, are you going to charge them far less because your are actually getting better at doing this? I think I am just repeating Dan's point.
I am leaning toward the idea that creative services should be charged more according to their value than the time it takes.
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
quote:Originally posted by Peter Crossing: Good points, Rick.
If you use Indesign to layout brochures and even full-color signs such as menus, you will not want to use any other software, not even Illustrator, which is intended for illustration as the name implies. It is extremely powerful and flexible. And Quark is not bad either.
But software skill is only half the battle, and as your knowledge grows, you will be craving for creative ideas, which is always in short supply.
It is a good thing that more and more sign shops are getting into print or web design in response to what the market demands. In this respect, Dan and a few others are really miles ahead of us.
One main reason in using Illustrator is the fact that you can "illustrate" on your simple brochure easier without having to link or place in InDesign or Quark. Plus link, text tools for what is needed on simple brochures, layout, and posters, I even do my drafting in Illustrator with CadTolls unless my client needs it in Autocad. I use all 3 though I only use Quark now if the client needs it done in that format. Another advantage to using illustrator is it plays well with sign programs and layout programs, many here have problems with broken text and messed up graphic from Quark and Indesigns .pdf export. But on a newsletter, catalog or magazine layout requiring constant grid or layout template, InDesign it is.
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
On the idea of hourly, I think lump sum is better if you can control client pickiness, mistakes or slow to providing copy by having a not to exceed clause with an hourly rate afterwards if it goes over a certain amount of time.
Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :
Peter,
Please don't misunderstand me, I always have priced according to advertising value with regards to signage, websites, or print. That's where the minimum I mention comes in.
I'll use logo design as an example. I have minimum charges for logos based on some factors. Usage, exposure, and complexity. Based on my first meeting with the client, I'm able to get a good feel for what kind of time I'll have into things, and what range of cost their job will fall into. I will charge a minimum for the logo design work accordingly, but in no way would I want to commit to a flat rate when it comes to any custom design job. I instill an hourly rate to cover me for time that may exceed my minimum estimate. I find that mentioning the hourly rate not only covers my butt when it comes to referencing time, revisions and the time bandits in general, but brings me a more prepared and accomodating customer to start with.
Joe Rees explains this scenario quite well in his reply.
This way has been working for me, but I'm always perfecting things when it comes to these sorts of dealings with customers. Experience sure has a way of teaching lessons! hahahaaa
Nettie
Posted by Peter Crossing (Member # 4009) on :
Tony,
I am trying to do exactly the same as you do, and find it quite exciting. And I am also looking forward to seeing Dan the design Guru can dispense some much need advice on this board. Thanks.
Posted by Chuck Gallagher (Member # 69) on :
Hi guys & gals,
This is what I have done for this customer and being an existing large purchasing, great customer to work with, this is what I did.
I probably have about 24 hours in interviews, product setup, pictures, revisions and in person meetings to help them with their up coming show in Florida and all done in three days from the time of call. Pretty good service on my part if I do say so myself! I'm not one for leaving money on the table, but don't want to give the impression of gouging either. I made a few calls around and it seems like most operate by the hour instead of flat rate. With my time and hourly rate it would have been close to 1100.00 and since they didn't ask first I'm not sure if they would ever call again with that price. I did price it at 750.00 but I'm still reading posts too. If they had order the brochures from me then I would have been able to combine the two and make a package deal. I tried researching on the web and found pricing at a flat rate from typically 700-1000 and up with no meetings or fast turn or photography or Sunday work or, or, or.
I like the thought of combining all services for my customers which Dan has done and I always thought it was not only a great idea, but why not? If you have the skills why not put it in a different format and sell it again?
Thanks for the replies and I hope we get some more on pricing structures from around the nation. This might help several others too.
Take Care all
[ January 13, 2005, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: Chuck Gallagher ]
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Photography is a whole other ball game. I've been researching the business end of photography for quite some time, with 18 years of experience shooting everything from still life to landscape, action, abstract, you name it, it's time to make some coin on it.
The photography on Chuck's brochure layout is worth some big bucks on its own. There are some that would do it for dang near nothing but the work is worth a couple grand itsself based on what Pro photogs are charging for similar. If the company wants the rights to use those photos in other media you're talking possibly major dollars depending on the intended use. A blurb in the local paper wouldnt be worth that much, maybe $200-300, but single use rights for a 1/4, 1/2 or full page ad in a magazine with 1,000,000 or more circulation could be worth tens of thousands.
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
The "price guidbook" for graphic design (I think this must be the 20th time I mentioned this book) is this book.
I know about trying to protect the "value" of what we do, but in reality not many customers understand that where I'm from. If it's cheaper then it's gotta be a better way to go, seems to be the mentality. Occasionally you'll find someone that does know what they want and are willing to pay for it. Unfortunately I can't design down to fit a budget because I need my satisfaction too, so I just settle for what the market will bare and a little more monetarily and then try to out do design wise to get the work. That's the beauty aspect of selling on the web. You don't have to "fit in line" with others that don't understand the value of advertising and just price accordingly.
This is an interesting topic and I hope it gets a few more responses!
Thanks again,
Posted by Dan Antonelli (Member # 86) on :
Tony --
The prices I was mentioning are for just layout and design. We've really done our homework on the printing costs, and have found good vendors and really good rates, which afford us nice markups.
Regarding getting burned for AA''s, you need to fine tune your proposals so its clear what they get from you for the design fee (same being true of logos).
Our proposals state an approximate numbers of hours included, plus an hourly creative rate of $125 per hour after we've exhausted the specified time (through no fault of our -- ie. add'l copy, changes, etc)
So we're still covering our butts, and putting some responsibility on the client to get their act together or it's going to cost them more.
Perfect example -- recently did a web site for client - a caterer. We told them to give us all their menus in Word, and make sure they we're 100% on them. OF course, after setting 15 html pages, they decided to changes a whole bunch of stuff on them. Fine, no problem -- we're just billing them additionall AAs for it, and our contract specfied thus.
I think the bottom line about this is such:
You are not paying me hourly for this per se, because what you're getting from me is over 10 years experience doing this for other businesses, and the marketing expertise that I bring to the table. If you want someone to typeset something, then go to SirSpeedy, or some quick copy shop. If you want someone to advise you on the strategic issues surrounding your business, and how we can help achieve some financial growth for your company, than come to us.
That experience is worth a lot. And given the body of work we've produced, and the success stories we already have, its really easy to sell people on what we bring to the table, and how we can help them.
Most people seem genuinely happy to have found a company like us to do the whole thing - from soup to nuts, so to speak.
Its interesting sometimes, when people will say a $3500 web site is expensive from us. I've personally designed over 120 web sites in the last 5 years --- so you getting me with that kind of experience is a huge bargain.
Again, however, the caution lies in designers treating what we do as commodities. We don't sell brochures, web sites or any other design service as commodities, because its not a commodity. Its not like buying a chair, where you can compare it in two different "stores".
We sell a service, and the marketing expertise that comes with our experience.
When moving from an environment that's been so heavily ingrained with this notion of 'time and materials' it's sometimes hard to see what what you're ultimately selling is yourself, your education, and your experience instead.
On a side note, related to design issues and pricing, Jeff Fisher's Savvy Designers Guide to Success is really a great read. I just picked it up this week -- wow - what awesome insight the man has. I'm flattered that his work is in my book!
Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :
Seems like many of us on this thread are saying the same things, just putting them in different words.
That's cool!
Whatever works right?
Posted by Chuck Gallagher (Member # 69) on :
Who in the Mid West is doing this type work and what might you be charging? We've heard from the East and the West so far. I've seen prices clear up to 3800.00 for brochures, but have no idea what is being done for that amount! Maybe it's just as much as you can get? Posted by Peter Crossing (Member # 4009) on :
This might be off the topic, but I've read somewhere else that some design / direct mail companies are getting paid for the amount of sales increase their creative work can bring to the client. You can see a few them of listed in the Dec. issue of INC. magzine.
Wouldn't that be more fair and profitable for us? I am not sure how this billing model actually work, but it certainly is interesting to figure how this can be applied to us.
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Chuck, something else to consider...
It looks like this particular client is more than your average run of the mill local outfit. That's a large facility with a product that can be sold anywhere, and is likely showcased in several trade magazines with nationwide or even international exposure.
Small town pricing may not apply to this client, and chances are they might recognize the benefits of nice design and the costs required to get it.
If the client was a local antique store it would be a different story, but they wouldn't receive the same attention to detail either based on budget restraints.
Posted by Chuck Gallagher (Member # 69) on :
You're exactly right Mike. Domestic and abroad sales, but I still have to be in line with other local (with in a hundred miles) pricing so I can sleep at night and they call me over someone else. Never plan on being the cheapest, but for a little more you get this!
Hey Peter,
Good idea on the % to sales ratio for their advertising, but then you'ld have to see their books to know what to charge them and that might be hard to do. Besides some folks don't make much money in business either. I'll stick with fair pricing and selling myself and getting up front!
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