What a horrendous catastrophe dealt by mother nature via monster tsunami's to many asian coastlines!
I'm sure you all heard that there is now upwards of 60k people killed by the tsunami waves in several asian countries caused by the massive earthquake beneath the Indian ocean.
I can barely wrap my mind around the sheer numbers of deaths involved in this calamity.
I am heartened to know that the United States along with other countries were quick to provide aid in the form of money, logistical support, etc.
I hate to say it, but as soon as it happened and I heard the news that we were providing millions in immediate aid....I thought, "ok, let's see how long it is until the US gets some kind of bad wrap in all this."
Well it didn't take long for some UN pinhead to insinuate the US and other "rich" countries are "stingy" in their aid efforts.
We provide millions in aid without question, to a predominantly Muslim population....who in great part hate our guts...and it starts out like this.
Here's hoping that lives lost will not grow, our aid will do some real good to those afflicted, and those that take our money with one hand while flipping us the bird with the other...will "get a clue."
It's hard to imagine a wall of water 20 to 30 feet tall traveling towards the coast at speeds reaching 500 mph.
I pray for those living, and wounded that they'll make it through this awful event.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
*edit* I just wanted to add my prayers to this post & chime in on the somber recognition of how immense this tragedy really is. I also want to extend gratitude to all from this country & the rest of the world who are directly involved in any form of relief effort & to acknowledge the fact that providing assistance in overcoming a disaster is a natural instinct & although it is difficult as an individual to react from so far away, it is refreshing to know it is being done in our name as we speak.
Todd, I think sometimes when I fear a negative outcome to a situation, that later when I see one, I have to wonder how much my own projection had to do with the outcome. Not to say that my fears manifest the outcome ( though in some cases I believe that too is possible) but just that when I look for the good in things, I will find it.... but when I look for the bad, well I find the bad.
There will always be a dark side, but I don't choose to search it out.
On another note, many of the poor nations may believe that America does not have legitimate rights to the vast majority of the worlds resources, so this may factor into some outside views about our generosity.
[ December 28, 2004, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
It is amazing the capabilities of the human mind to contemplate and understand the wild and complex theories developed over time yet be unable to comprehend the power of Mother Nature and the carnage left in her path.
I am left almost speechless at the sheer numbers of people killed. It is a terrible shame.
I am proud of the response this country has shown in the brief period following this tragedy. I didn't just see pledges of support, I saw positive action on the part of our military and the private sector.
I, too, pray for the souls lost and the survivors of this awful event.
Posted by Alan Johnson (Member # 2513) on :
Rob Cooper and family are ok, they live on the east side of the island. AJ
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
The WHO (World Health Organization) now says that disease from rotting bodies could cause additional death equaling that of the initial Tsunami deaths.
It just doesn't seem real.....
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
As I heard this on the radio. . . .I was sure I heard them say the water was as high as 50 yards which would actually be a 150 feet rather than "20 or 30 feet".
Astronmical destruction, death and injury...
BTW Todd . . .how would the people of Letterville for instance, feel, if many of the giving-hearted here sent money-food or clothes to someone in need and then got dogged-out and dunned for doing so, accused of doing it for selfish motives??
Yet, this is what happens when this very giving United States, the Land of Plenty shares with those in need. Instead, somehow, the U.S. government will be blamed for making the tsunami happen in the first place, in order to create a 'political edge' situation where we try to 'look good' by our unselfish giving.
Much of the giving will also be done by private citizens of the U.S., and many who will form groups to accumulate food, clothes & funds for these hurting people. Yet, many will scream that America sucks, and are too busy hating the U.S. & wrapped up in their own selves to offer any help in this crisis.
Go figger.
Ooops..... it's gettin' SO political. Careful. We don' wanna lock it up boys an' girls.
Posted by Mark Matyjakowski (Member # 294) on :
I've seen reports that the quake was enough to wobble the planets axis. Maps will have to be altered because some islands have been shifted.
That's some &%^$'d up $^!%.
A true "human" tragedy.
Sorry Todd, there were likely more Buddhists and Hindus killed than Muslims ... tens of thousands of them children ... I don't know if they in great part hated us or not ... either way it's pretty &^%$'d up.
Posted by Myra Grozinger (Member # 327) on :
I am in deep shock at the tragedy. Utter horror. Last year on the same day, 26th of Dec., an earthquake hit Iran and killed 31 000 people. Christmas at this point in time, seems dangerous.
The $ numbers might be looked at in the following light:
At first we pledged 15 Million, yesterday. Then, when we were criticized for being stingy we added another 20 Million, today. 35 Million of our money from our government.
We spend 6 Million an hour in our war in Iraq.
We intend to spend 40 million on the 20th of January to re-inaugurate a sitting President in war time.
The 35 Million represents not quite six hours of our war, and 5 Million less than the inauguration.
Think about it.
Posted by mike meyer (Member # 542) on :
2 days in India was more than enuf fur me........I feel sorry for the people left without homes or families. It seemed like utter caios there anyway, I can't even imagine what it's like now!
No comment on the political opinion...How about Guns and Religon too?
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
Some neighbors travel to Bali frequently on buying trips, and also travel to other countries in that side of the planet. They sent an email this morning from sone high mountain place in Thailand and hardly knew of the tradgedy down the hill from them.
Posted by Myra Grozinger (Member # 327) on :
Mike, before this goes bad, and I am faulted for it, there is nothing but mathematics in my post, and an invitation to look at it with unemotional logic.
And what's behind your cryptic comment about guns and religion? I don't get it.
The destruction was a natural catastrophe, no guns involved. And the people hit were as religious as your or I - and it has nothing to do with the onslaught of the water that killed them.
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
Exactly how much $ did the UN prick give to help with the hurricanes here?
I feel bad for the people devastated by things like this. One report said they thought some islands moved like 100 miles? Wow, I cannot wrap my mind around entire islands moving or the forces required to do that.
I feel even worse for the pricks who criticize the aid offered by our country instead of getting off their sorry asses and trying to help in their own way. Freaking arm chair quarterbacks. What we really need is a good goalie, right Mike?
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Chris, that island, I believe it was Sumarta (sp?), moved 100 feet.
Still, imagine the force it required to move that! Unfathomable.
Posted by mike meyer (Member # 542) on :
It's a joke that has unfortunately become reality on this board Myra. When people go to RELIGON-GUNS or POLITICS ..people freak out....so while the post goes wild with political stuff..I thought hey, why stop there...Guns and Religon. THAT'S all I was saying..OK... Myra, have a cigarette or a glass of wine..lighten up...Yeah, Kissy....Hockey..Let's really swing this post!
hahaha
Here ya go Steve....
Posted by Myra Grozinger (Member # 327) on :
Kissy, are you sure you are alright. I worry.
Posted by TransLab (Member # 470) on :
In the scope of this disaster I can't believe you people are bickering over politics. If you feel compelled to give, give; if you don't, don't; just don't lets make a political issue of it.
None of us need governments to pledge money for us, I'll be donating a minimum of $200 today to the canadian red cross asian disaster relief fund, I say minimum because I'll also match my employees dollar for dollar. Both the Canadian red cross at www.redcross.ca and the American at www.redcross.org accept donations online.
Posted by Dana Bowers (Member # 780) on :
**EDIT**
OOOOOPS.
I thought this post was supposed to be about lottsa water and lottsa dead people and how sad it makes us.
Sorry, my mistake.
[ December 29, 2004, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: Dana Bowers ]
Posted by Rovelle W. Gratz (Member # 4404) on :
58,000 and rising.....I can't imagine...some whole families, several generations, wiped out.
The survivors will never look at the sea, or life the same way again.
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
Toll has risen to 67,000!
Biggest natural disaster in known history. I will refrain from political comments, as politics are hardly appropriate in light of the tragedy. Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Aw-right! My point was simply two-fold: shock, and sympathy for the afflicted and shock and sympathy for those that criticize the US massive donations in response to the aforementioned suffering.
I did include the side point that we (US) are an equal opportunity giver no matter the feelings a country may have towards us. Mark - you were partially right about the religious makeup of some of the affected countries...I quickly researched this and if you mixed all the countries affected you have roughly a close mix between Muslims and Buhdists (sp?).... my point is that we freely help other people/countries no-matter their dislike for us. I probably could have kept that thought to myself.
I highly doubt Myra, that ANY president looks for ways to save money during their inaugurations, no matter their political affiliation.
Let's say it was another war taking place when this tragedy occurred....under a president of your liking....would you dare mention a comparison between the hourly war rate vs the charitable donations that the US gives? I doubt it.
Hopefully, there's a shred of pride in the fact that the US is the largest aid dispensing country in the world, both in shear money as well as aid in food, drugs, military alliance, technology sharing and many other "freebie" venues that often go unconsidered when the topic of aid is discussed.
I watched an on-site news report last night in which the reporter was standing on a beach pointing out several bodies that had been decomposing on the beach for two days in the heat. She said the stench was unimaginable - and disgusting.
There are sooo many people dead that they are having an impossible time tending to the dead and wounded.
Human assistance in addition to money seems desperately needed. I'm sure personal donations as well as on-site physical aid would be appreciated for those that feel more needs to be done than what the US is currently doing.
That would be a statement with substance, and I applaud Mike for stepping out beyond what his tax dollars have contributed to; by making a personal monetary sacrifice in aid to a tragedy to which he feels a personal urging to be involved.
That's a really cool thing you did Mike! Sincerely!
As I research this story a bit, I find that this tragic incident wasn't the first for that area...read the following link:
[ December 29, 2004, 09:17 AM: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
There's a dire warning here, if anyone cares to listen.
For several years now, volcano scientists have been very worried about a volcano in the Canary Islands, off the west coast of Africa. According to an article I read, this volcanic mountain is in imminent danger of collapsing into the ocean, which will cause massive tsunamis. These waves will take fifteen minutes to reach Africa, two hours to hit the eastern Caribbean islands, and four hours to hit the East Coast of North America. Not much time for an orderly evacuation from a place like New York or Miami.
I live within sight of the ocean, and I don't take this lightly. The threat of a thirty to fifty foot wall of water is more than a tragedy in Asia, it's also a warning for fifty million Americans. Pay attention.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Very true Cam.....and the fact that that wall of water is traveling much faster across the ocean than the speed of an airliner demonstrates the unconstrainable fury of mother nature.
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
does anyone ever read or see discovery shows about ammageddon??? pretty scarey how close the predictions have been.
Posted by Amy Brown (Member # 1963) on :
Up until this the biggest natural disaster was all the hurricanes this year. Just look at all the homeless people here in Florida. Blue tarps on roofs, businesses lost, etc. And that's just Florida.
I couldn't even get the price of a chain saw from FEMA to help with the 12 trees we had fall. Not even when my husband was without a job for two years because his company closed to move to Brazil for incentives!
Let's send them everything. We're used to starving in the US. Everyone hates us.
It's a terrible tragedy but it's time someone with balls stepped up and took care of their own people for a change.
Political or not that's my two cents!
Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
I think Myra did not intend to inflame anyone, just stated facts that are well known. It is horrible what happened to these people, and like cam says, it could happen to us one day soon. Myra was stating a point and you all did your flaming. Now Ill probably get flamed. Thats okay, its cold here.
[ December 29, 2004, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: John Deaton III ]
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
I watched a show last night on the History Channel - the segment was about biological warfare. The stuff that has been developed, if in the hands of terrorists will make this tragedy seem like a hangnail.
It was soooo frightening I had to turn off the tv.
Posted by Jim Upchurch (Member # 209) on :
The US gave 40 percent of the world's aid last year so the critics can kiss my backside. Anyone using this disaster to make political hay, leftwing, rightwing, whateverwing needs to get help. Now.
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
I know Jim. . . .but it happens anyway. From the common, everyday individual to the totem-pole-rider-dedicated-to-his-party . . .everything that happens can be used to make somebody look really good and someone else look really bad all at the same time while neither group is genuinely concerned for the real deal at hand.
But like I said, while this farce goes on, a WHOLE lot of individuals and groups are doin' the real, live tangible stuff: caring and helping.
[ December 29, 2004, 04:40 PM: Message edited by: Sheila Ferrell ]
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
I'd also like to applaud Mike for his pledge.
As for all the indignant comments about political thinking entering into this discussion I have to ask what exactly IS politics anyway?
I think "politics" are what happens when a place like Letterville is populated by a diverse bunch of individuals, some better known (or percieved to be) then others, who may appear to fall into various clusters of similar thought, & when "free speech" is invested in (or wasted on ) blowing smoke up the arses of some while showering flames upon another. The intent of this is usually to further exaggerate the diversity of the clusters of individuals, or to lay claim to which cluster we want to be identified with.
I think Sheila is right when she says "everything that happens can be used to make somebody look really good and someone else look really bad" but as for neither group being genuinely concerned... well that may occur, but I sincerely doubt it occurs among us.
This forum is not a place to let politics (or religion) serve to divide the otherwise unified group we have become, but it is also not a place to quote & add commentary to the newscasts we all have access to... BUT we share such commentary at times like this because world news this huge demands our attention, & Letterville is the main place (or only place)so many of us rely on to step outside the little box of our personal world & discuss the world.
I think "politics", in some form or another, enters into most expressions of our opinions, but only when we choose to exagerate the divisions between ourselves here does it threaten the goodwill that makes this place great & that Steve & Barb try so hard to maintain.
John Deaton is right when he observes that Myra simply cited some facts that exist weather or not she quotes them, or others want to hear them.
Did she "start" the political slant? Of course not, even Todd's initial post has the early warning signs of a topic we often use to gang up on each other.
My first reply is just as guilty when I wrote "On another note, many of the poor nations may believe that America does not have legitimate rights to the vast majority of the worlds resources, so this may factor into some outside views about our generosity"
While these thoughts may be political, they do not attack another letterhead. If people could open up their minds to the many views of an issue instead of just their own, they would see the potentially politically antagonistic slant to the expression of ideals they agree with, instead of only seeing it when someone expresses ideas they would rather resist. Then maybe the "potentially antagonistic" topics wouldn't always become truely antognistic.
(BTW the news spent a lot of time discussing the UN guy & his "Stingy" comment as well as Collin Powell's comments in defense of America's generosity... the fact that the Bush administration has increased aid relative to the Clinton years was somewhat irrelevant IMO... but was repeated often... reminds me of Jim's point! "Anyone using this disaster to make political hay, leftwing, rightwing, whateverwing needs to get help. Now... but my point is only that we have begun a discussion of world news & our diverse opinions of all that it contains. How could we not have politics enter the discussion? I don't believe it is possible to tiptoe around all political undercurrents in this discussion... but we need to refrain from attacking other letterheads Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
I've started to reply to this thread three or four times and - each time - just backed away from it, thinking "this is way too much of a can of worms". It is far too easy to be misunderstood and flamed...as I think Myra can attest too.
Doug said just about everything that I would have, far better than I could have (Thanks Doug!). I particularly like the suggestion that we focus on what unites us, rather than what divides us.
It isn't "politics" or political discussion that gets these threads into trouble, it is the unrestrained RHETORIC that does. We don't all share the same views and never will. Seldom (if ever) can we expect to convince anyone to abandon their point of view for our own.
Lets look for common ground and understanding on issues and strive to show respect to people regardless of whether or not they share our views.
Sorry for the soapboxing...not my original intent.
Posted by Bobbie Rochow (Member # 3341) on :
I don't think Myra intended on starting a political arguement, either. While my husband & I were watching the news, & we heard the comment about the U.S. being stingy, the first thing that came to my husband's mind was, "Where is their help to try to help us win the war?" I know many nations see us as a rich nation, but like my father-in-law once told me, "Everyone counts a rich man's money, but no one bothers to count his bills."
When we all first saw the horrible tragedy on tv, we all were struck at such a horendous disaster, & yea, it is hard to imagine. I mean, it brings tears to your eyes. How 'bout that tiny Swedish boy they found on the beach? That looks like a miracle! But as we hear & see more commentaries on it, different thoughts do come to mind about it, & we all heard the comment about the U.S. being stingy, so of course we will be mentioning it, too. I'm sure there will be other things said on tv also, that we will all want to comment about. Can't we all just state our thoughts on here without being angry at each other? I read somewhere, "A house divided itself will fall..." Our country needs to get together & stand together united, don't you think? I didn't like the "stingy comment" I heard on the news either, but that's ok, let's just stick together & help anyway.
Posted by Jim Upchurch (Member # 209) on :
Doug, it's quite easy to not let politics enter into it. All we have to do is realize it isn't a political issue. The earthquake didn't care who was in what office. Politicizing on this one is as low as it gets.
I don't agree that it's rhetoric that gets people riled up, it's emotions. I can discuss my views all day without getting emotional. With perhaps 100 thousand dead and many more to come and all those effected it seems disrespectful to me for anyone to try to gain something from it.
Posted by Bruce Williams (Member # 691) on :
Browse "plate tectonics" for how tsunamis & earthquakes happen. It was not generally known or accepted by geologists until c. 1966. You won't find it in atlases before then.
The Earth gets hotter toward the core. So hot, that it melts rock above it. That melted rock is called magma, and the continents are big pieces of lighter rock that float on top of it. They bang and scrape against each other with the force of. . . of a planet.
You can see these separate chunks in a modern atlas and fairly guess which will collide and which will rip apart. But nobody can guess WHEN.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Jim, after Jon said "It isn't "politics" or political discussion that gets these threads into trouble, it is the unrestrained RHETORIC that does. " you replied that it's not rhetoric that gets people riled up, it's emotions.
I agree completely with that statement, but you refer to getting people "riled up" which IMO is synonamous with "emotional" where Jon refered to these threads getting into trouble.
You said "I can discuss my views all day without getting emotional." & I am exactly the same in that way... but that doesn't mean "my views" won't get me in trouble... here or elsewhere!
You said "All we have to do is realize it isn't a political issue." if "IT" means the Tsunami... I agree, but if "IT" means this thread, then I don't agree.
As Todd himself stated, he was making 2 distinct separate points & the one about measuring the aid provided by the US was the issue that has brought up a political undercurrent. That undercurrent is a reflection of our current world situation just as much as the disaster is. Is it as important? Of course not, but it is happening & it was brought up in the inception of this thread. I don't see anyone trying to "gain" from it, but to discuss opinions on that aspect of the world news could get this thread in trouble. If we don't attack each other though, it may not.
Here are some of the views on that half of this topic as gleaned from CNN: (I post these to further point out that the "undercurrent" of measuring or questioning the amount of aid a country gives is current news today & not just some low blow by another letterhead disrespecting the dead)
quote:the United States spent almost $15.8 billion for "official development assistance" to developing countries in 2003. Next closest was Japan, at $8.9 billion
Measured another way, none of the world's richest countries donated even 1 percent of its gross national product. Norway was highest, at 0.92 percent; the United States was last, at 0.14 percent.
Such figures were what prompted Jan Egeland -- the United Nations' emergency relief coordinator and former head of the Norwegian Red Cross -- to challenge the giving of rich nations.
quote:"That's a European standard, this percentage that's used," Natsios said. "The United States, for 40 years, has never accepted these standards that it should be based on the gross national product. We base it on the actual dollars that we spent."
Posted by John Largent (Member # 4606) on :
Hey guys . . Notwithstanding all of your points of view . . didja ever stop to think . . One big rock from space . . The Human Species becomes just another extinct creature in our planet's history . .
Don't believe it can happen? . . Ask a Dinosaur . . .
Mother Nature has No Compassion . . .
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Thanks for your level headed commentary Doug....I generally agree with it.
Funny, even tv news channel preference is apparantly political. For even though you show two sides of the emergency aid debate from CNN (is this really even debatable?!), there is (as usual) more words devoted to the con than the pro US position from that network.
That's why I'm a FOX man...hehehe....
Now I'm having some fun here...so don't slay me...especially when you're having a very well-worded, enlightened, and inspirational streak of converting electrically created synaptic thought into keystrokes. (that's my way of bragging you up. )
However,
quote:John Deaton is right when he observes that Myra simply cited some facts that exist weather or not she quotes them, or others want to hear them.
The comments he's referring to weren't even an attempt at being mildly transparent. Barbara Streisand couldn't have done a better job. Next we'll be hearing that Bush is single handedly responsible for the destruction of the rain forest because he uses too many squares of T.P. to wipe his butt. (That's the part where you chuckle)
There's stating facts, and there's stating facts in an incomplete and unfair way;leaving out comparitive figures from prior administrations.
To your credit Doug...you are a person that usually looks at both sides of an issue and aren't afraid of stating facts that may not always jive with your ideology...and that's a good thing.
What's really giving me a panic attack is a thought that occurred after reading Bruce's last post:
If the core of the earth is molten magma, which is melting the rock above it which it comes into contact with....doesn't it stand to reason that at some point the earth will devour itself from the inside out....thus vaporizing every living being leaving nothing but a black hole and a quickly vanishing puff of smoke in it's place?
Inquiring minds want to know....or maybe not.
Edit - The latest on aid from the White House:
quote:In his first remarks since the weekend disaster that so far has killed more than 76,000, Bush - like some in his administration previously - took umbrage at a U.N. official's suggestion that the world's richest nations were "stingy," and indicated much more is expected to be spent to help the victims.
"Well, I felt like the person who made that statement was very misguided and ill-informed," Bush said from his Texas ranch. "We're a very generous, kindhearted nation, and, you know, what you're beginning to see is a typical response from America."
Bush noted that the United States provided $2.4 billion "in food, in cash, in humanitarian relief to cover the disasters for last year. ... That's 40 percent of all the relief aid given in the world last year."
But the journey from the $35 million to potentially $1 billion or more in help for the tens of thousands of latest victims is fraught with bureaucratic twists.
First, the U.S. Agency for International Development, which distributes foreign aid, will have to ask for more money, since the initial $35 million aid package drained its emergency relief fund, said Andrew Natsios, the agency's administrator.
"We just spent it," Natsios said in an interview Tuesday with The Associated Press. "We'll be talking to the (White House) budget office ... (about) what to do at this point."
Natsios said the Pentagon also is spending tens of millions to mobilize an additional relief operation, with C-130 transport planes winging their way from Dubai to Indonesia with tents, blankets, food and water bags.
As of Wednesday, dozens of countries and relief groups had pledged at least $261 million in help for South and East Asia, said the Geneva-based U.N. Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs.
[ December 29, 2004, 04:01 PM: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]
Posted by Bobbie Rochow (Member # 3341) on :
I'm with you, Todd, FOX woman all the way!
Doug, you are so deep, & your vocabulary amazes me. I think deep, too, but speak with simpler terms.
Back to the original post, tho, I keep hearing that there are stories that are amazing of people's survival, & I am either missing them, or they are not airing them. It sure would be good to hear how some did make through ok. Can any of us begin to imagine what it would be like to lose our spouse or children ,& have to search like those people are, to find them? It would be so hard to go on, but they have to.
Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
Bobbie, I doubt that even a quarter of the dead will be identified, or their remains reunited with their loved ones. Due to the disease and sanitation factor, they will more than likely be stacked like so much cordwood and buried en mass or burned. It really does go to show how insignificant the human race is in the grand scheme of the universe. I can't comprehend the horror and now deprivation these poor people are going through. Politics or no politics, I don't care about that crap. What bothers me is the total annihilation of families and livelihoods. This is what matters. I applaud Trannie. If we can't give monetarily, we could at least offer a prayer. If we don't pray, we can still empathize. But bickering amongst ourselves is a total waste of time and words. Love....Jill
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Todd, I guess CNN & FOX realy are different... that quote you just posted is the exact group of paragraphs directly preceeding my earlier quote... word for word, EXCEPT the amount listed from dozens of other countries was $81 million.
As for Myra stating facts in an incomplete & unfair way... I disagree... dollars spent on war today, are justifiably compared to dollars spent on aid today. I also think it is an unfair projection for you to ask if Myra would dare compare the inequities of aid dollars against war dollars under another administration. I think years of reading her posts tells me that Myra stands for Humanitarianism long before she stands for either political party.
Don't get me wrong, I'm proud to be an american & am proud of our record of providing aid. I am also insulted that someone would imply our level of support is "stingy"... but true to form, I try to see why others in poor nations may see things differently. I appreciate the facts Myra posted, because I had no idea of those figures, but I'll bet many people in other nations recieve that news & hearing it does help to understand why others may have a different view of our financial priorities.
[ December 29, 2004, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: Doug Allan ]
Posted by Jeff Fisher (Member # 5296) on :
Hi -
New around here - too new to get into any debates...
Luckily my friends in the region of the world impacted by this horrific natural disaster are all safe. Many had little local news about what has taken palce and are getting their info from CNN.com and BBC.com
If any of you would like to offer assistance to the relief efforts here are some resources:
All the best - Jeff
Posted by Stevo Chartrand (Member # 2094) on :
I am going down and donating money tommorow to the Canadian Red Cross.
I urge everyone to do the same!!
To quote Ricky Jackson "Git 'er done!"
Stevo
Posted by Myra Grozinger (Member # 327) on :
Two more links, where the money is not used to support an organization and goes directly to the ones in need Welcome, Jeff Fisher. Thanks for posting your links.
Timi mentioned to me an hour ago that there was quite a bit of discussion of my posting the numbers. I had not revisited here since last night. And now I see there was labeling the message and shooting the messenger going on. Too bad.
Thanks to those who understood the comparison I was making.
To those of you who came after me personally, first let me say I forgive you, and then tell you that I was also very shocked at the numbers when put in such a perspective.
Posted by Suelynn Sedor (Member # 442) on :
I'm happy to hear the Canadian government has just increased their contribution from 4 million to 40 million dollars. Individual canadians have already donated over 8 million to the red cross, and provinces are starting to pledge money as well. BC has committed 8 million dollars. That is 56 million and growing from a country with 33 million people.
It is really wonderful to see the world pull together in this kind of crisis. The news stories are absolutely devastating.
Suelynn
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
quote: I see there was labeling the message and shooting the messenger going on. Too bad.
Sorry but,,, No myra, no one was shooting the messenger. It as your linking this tragedy, the US response to this tragedy, and the money spent on the bush inauguration that fired the flames..
`Your thinly veiled attack on bush is a political position. Likewise, your personal feelings about a certain political party is affecting your decisions.
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Curtis..You and I, for once, have the same opinion! Posted by Cheryl Lucas (Member # 1656) on :
Have Mercy...
People have lost their lives & loved ones...
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
you know what... I have to agree with you guys too.
I have defended the remarks made about war costs, because I think it adds some perspective to the pre-existing debates in the world regarding a measurement of aid,& may be somewhat relevant to foriegners opinions of US spending habits because the war is obviously seen worldwide.
But I agree that linking the US response to this tragedy, and the money spent on the bush inauguration was a bad idea, and was asking for the fallout that it recieved.
I should also admit that my own personal feelings about a certain political party caused me to overlook that fact untill Curtis spelled it out so well. I appreciate having my eyes opened with an articulate observation.
Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Sorry, I disagree.
Regardless of who is steering the ship, Myra's numbers brought perspective to the discussion - apparently an unwelcome perspective - and I think it is the rest of you (not all, obviously) who are responding "politically".
[ December 30, 2004, 08:19 AM: Message edited by: Jon Aston ]
Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :
quote:... your personal feelings about a certain political party is affecting your decisions.
Like Myra is alone in that? Let's be fair. And how exactly is that a bad thing?
It is in people's conduct during adversities and tragedy that we learn the most about their character.
Myra is encouraging us to pay attention.
"Pray to god, but row to shore".
Don't we owe it to the good of mankind to watch, listen, and become informed with our decisions? Don't we owe it to the lives lost to learn something from this tragedy?
It is the personal feelings of many on here that are reading more into Myra's intents.
Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
God bless those that were lost, and God bless all on this board.
[ December 30, 2004, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: John Deaton III ]
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
My objection to the UN official's comment is that it was a political jab to begin with.
This from a representative of an agency which wallows in corruption, whose high officials accept bribes and kickbacks for steering aid money to corrupt government officials - in other words, people who are getting rich from other people's suffering. UN aid agencies are famous for this, which is how they manage able to selectively ignore any humanitarian crisis that doesn't provide an opportunity to grease their own skids.
I'm far more interested in how individuals respond compassionately, looking for and finding the means to provide real help on the ground. Government aid money ends up being spread around by one pack of bureaucrats, to be soaked up by another country's bureaucrats, with the people in need getting the crumbs. UN officials are like hogs at a trough who start squealing when they don't get slopped as much as they think they ought - that's not a "political" statement, just an observation. I tend to be highly suspicious of all these professional UN do-gooders who never actually gets downwind of the smell.
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Upwards of 100,000 people have been tragicaly killed in what might have seemed like only moments.
Everyday it is staggering to comprehend. The real tragedy will come when the media hype wains, the cameras go home and the horror fades from all of our minds. Thats when these people will feel abandoned and all alone to rebuild thier lives from rubble and destruction.
At that time most of the funding will dribble down to nothing as well. The real hero's will be not the countries that just send money for the people in a time of emergency but the ones who help and stay with these countries untill they can support themsleves again.
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
Gee Cam, you actually said, in a bureaucratic way, exactly what I said in my two previous posts on these subjects . . .
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Edited: I've decided to take the high road here. Have a great day everyone...and godspeed to those willing to make personal sacrifices in both time and money in an effort to help those poor victims and their families.
[ December 30, 2004, 09:51 AM: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
Having spent my childhood abroad, including six years in India, this hits close to home. What a heart wrenching disaster. It is hard to imagine how people can turn this into a personal thing. Instead of that try to imagine the pain and suffering as people search and find, or worse, don't find, their loved ones. India is a land of poverty and suffering, it is also a land of human resiliance, diverse cultures and beauty. Enough said....
Posted by Henry Barker (Member # 174) on :
Maybe some of the UN comments will stir people into helping more. Sod your politics.
I think most people here in Sweden would do anything to help financially or helping voluntarily to collect or help with whatever needs sending out to help now rehouse and rebuild a shattered region.
Alot of people here are not going to celebrate the new year in the traditional way with tons of fireworks but would rather donate to try and help instead.
It all comes much closer to home when most of the foreigners killed where from here or other parts of Scandinavia, and most had travelled as families to escape the cold and darkness and enjoy Christmas in the sun on the beach.
They have their governments help to return home to a modern society with bereavement counselling etc etc. Atough call for anybody. Children have come home parentless on planes or newlyweds minus a partner. Here in Stockholm 1300 are missing presumed dead.
For those left behind....its going to take years and billions of dollars to put things right...dig deep.
Posted by Dan Streicher (Member # 4515) on :
I'm going to bite my tongue (Tongue is Bitten)
What a horrible horrific disaster this is, and I hope that everyone that can do something to help does.
And Mike O'Neill you are a amazingly generous thoughtful man, you have given me a smile for humanity today.
Posted by Myra Grozinger (Member # 327) on :
These are aereal before and after shots of the Tsunami affected islands. A real sock in the gut to see, beware!
As Henry said, my mother also tells me there are people in trainstations and on the streets in Germany collecting money. And festivities for New Year's are curtailed in order to send the money instead.
They are now saying it may be the largest catastrophe in recorded history. And a Swiss release says that the Earth's axis is moved by 8 cm.
Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :
On Amazon.com, they've devoted their front page to donate money, in just one click, directly to help with the disaster relief efforts thru the American Red Cross.
It's wonderful to see businesses that are making it so easy for people to get involved and help.
Nettie
Posted by John Largent (Member # 4606) on :
A comment here on the time it has taken the different powers to act and specify amounts of money to be given as aid . .
At one time in my history, I was employed as a Vice-president-operations for a large earthmoving contractor. One of the things we often were called upon was to attend to Truck accidents involving Tanker Transporters and spilled Hazmat. The only reason I even mention it is that each accident was different, even though the same kind of materials were involved usually (Gasolene, fuel Oil, Diesel). Therefore you couldn't just "Order up" what was needed and send it to the site. An "On Site Appraisal" was usually needed by someone expert enough to know what would be needed, and when . . .
I think that's one of the things that has held up a lot of the resources, Knowing what to do and send . . the magnitude of the destruction, Whether to search for bodies and survivors or save the living from further harm from pestilence and disease . . And these aren't small decisions, or easy ones . . not to mention that most world leaders were doing what the rest of us do at this time of the year . . Go on Holiday . .and they usually travel farther. so in order to get information, make initial decisions, start things in the general direction, they necessarily took action . . then spoke to the talking heads. I personally think that it's a big ego trip by the press to even infer that Bush, Annan, or any other world leader was dragging their feet.
And in Bush's defense as far as the money committed by the U.S., that's all he had in the checkbook, Congress will have to authorize any more money than the $35m already committed. And I'm sure they will. At this time the press has turned it into an "Auction", and possibly, there'll be more money than is actually needed.
All the money we send can't bring back the dead and that was the greatest loss. With a couple of exceptions the material damage wasn't as great as it appears on TV's Soundbites . . True the beach areas and tourist facilities near the beach suffered lots of damage . . and of course the Infrastructure in those areas will need to be rebuilt. But why go out and rebuild all those little coastal villages that no longer have any live inhabitants?
Just take care of the Children . . The rest will get by pretty well . . The human is a very reslient species . . Again, Mother Nature has No Compassion!
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
John, I think you raise many valid points & I agree with 90% of your comments.
I will have to disagree with one for sure... "and possibly, there'll be more money than is actually needed" R U Serious
A tsunami warning system like we have here in the Pacific would be one very costly project that falls far below the more immediate needs, but is an extremely good idea to do when possible. A system of seismic activity detection sensors laying on the ocean floor (scattered around all the oceans)& transmitting data to bouys above them that link by satellite to a monitoring station. It's appalling that 4 hours after the first wave of destruction, people in Africa were still hanging around the beach without warning.
I've probably said enough on the "amount of aid" question... Although I understand that much more funding will be provided, I don't believe for a minute that our government's committing of(not necessarily sending immediately)more then 35 million was not possible. (interesting that one drug company alone matched that number )
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
Doug, I would think with the checks & balances system built by the founding fathers that there IS a limit of money the president can spend without congress approval. If not, why would congress have to approve the budget? I don't know this for sure, just saying what my common sense says.
The second thing I have to ask is, how much does this cost? How can anyone set a price hours after something like this happens? I see this as the emergency seed money to get supplies, food, help on the way til we get a real handle on how bad it is, what exacty is needed. How long did it take to come up with a final $$$ for the Florida Hurricanes?
Posted by Myra Grozinger (Member # 327) on :
3:00 pm - now- President Bush just increased the pledge of aid to 350 Million. I am very grateful for that.
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
lets see here.. In a non emotional respnose.
The first offer was up to 30?? millions in goodies.
To be hauled by at least 11 C-130 transports @ $59 mill each.. That burn thousands of dollars of fuel each hour, manned by highly traiend crews.
Along with an air craft carrier and its entire support group of ships that costs billions
and the thousands of service people to man the supply chain and distribution..
With the hundreds of medical teams that will swarm ashore treating the casualties and setting up MASH units..
And each ship with desalination plants that costs 40 mill each supplying clean water..
And all the food and supplies that will be given as needed to the locals.
All that along with the vehicles and other equipment needed to acces the remote places..
All this and more to come as is the USA's usuall response.
There no comparison and nothing to think about. We are doing what we can as we always have.
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
If this list is accurate, tragedies of this magnitude have happened many times throughtout history. Not to minimize the current situation, but it puts it into perspective
Dec. 28, 1908 — A magnitude-7.2 earthquake kills 123,000 people in the Messina-Reggio Calabria area of eastern Sicily and southernmost Italy.
Jan. 13, 1915 — An earthquake with a magnitude of 7.5 leaves 29,980 dead in Avezzano, Italy.
Dec. 16, 1920 — Gansu, China is hit with an earthquake reaching magnitude 8.6 that kills 200,000 people.
Sept. 1, 1923 — An temblor of 8.3 magnitude in Japan destroys one-third of Tokyo and most of Yokohama. More than 140,000 are killed.
May 22, 1927 — An earthquake reaching 7.9 magnitude hits near Xining, China and kills approximately 200,000.
Dec. 25, 1932 — Approximately 70,000 people are killed after an earthquake reaching 7.6 magnitude hits the Gansu region in China.
May 30, 1935 — A magnitude 7.5 temblor strikes Quetta, Pakistan, killing more than 30,000 people.
Posted by Ron Gibbs (Member # 3882) on :
On this New Years eve I will be saying a prayer for those victims and countries affected by the Tsunami.New Years is just not the same.In almost a Blink life changed for the worse in Southern Asia.It's trully a Sad time!In the aftermath of the tragedy though,it is amazing to see the Global response taking place.The Human spirit is a great thing.
Posted by John Largent (Member # 4606) on :
Doug . . Yes I am serious . . . Since I wrote the little missive above, the State Department has stepped up and comitted $350m (with Congressional approval, and that'll happen), so when you add that to all the money that is in the kitty right now, you have a tremendously large pile of CA$H. Now what do you do to convert it into aid? A large percentage of the CA$H may or may not get converted into aid for the children, and the people who need medical care. To be sure, the immediate needs will probably be taken care of . . But will any of that money be earmarked for long term care for the orphans created, their educational needs, compassionate homes, of will they be faced with the prospects of becoming child prostitutes and beggars next year just to exist?
No, probably not, but a lot of that money will be spent on new infrastructure, new Hotels, new Tourist attractions, the things that will start the tourist industry up again . . So who'll get the lion's share? Construction Companies . . they'll get rich! Know that for a fact, been there, done that (on a much smaller scale) and in the end, the people who could've re-built out of their pocket (quite like the people in Florida are having to do still) will get help on an economic scale we could only dream of.
And yes, Doug, there will be a Tsunami warning system built in the Western Pacific . . George Bush alluded to that in his first speech in Texas after this thing happened. However, had one been in place, the areas where the death tolls were the highest had little or no warning time had one been in place, and a lot of them lived in remote locations that wouldn't have received the word anyway . .
As has been said, a warning system just helps those who can help themselves . . Say the Canary Island Volcano Collapses into the sea and creates an Atlantic Tsunami with a crest of, say 50 feet. It'll take it to Florida and the East Coast in two hours plus . . as was said here, I believe . . . Let's see you evacuate Miami-Dade County in Two Hours . . 65% of the population will still be in the "Kill Zone"! Where would you go, in Florida, to escape a wave of that magnitude?
Warning or no warning system, anytime you have one of Mother Nature's "Large" or "Historical" Incidents, on a planet that has the dense population we have, a lot of people are going to get hurt (or Killed) and there's still not a lot we can do about it. Best thing you can hope for is to be someplace where you can ask; "What was that?"
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