Last month a local guy who refinishes gym floors for high schools and colleges in our area asked me to produce and install vinyl graphics for one of his jobs. He wanted an 8' x 14' Patriot to go insided the jump circle at midcourt. My only experience with this in the past was putting our shop's logo on the hardwood floor of our lobby a couple of years ago (with no problems). He said he'd had other shops do it many times and there would be no problems.
What we did We don't do digital printing, so we did it by layering vinyl. Since he would be using many coats of sealer on top, I used calendared vinly rather that premium. He had already painted the circle, using oil-based paint. The first layer of vinyl was black (first picture). I used Avery A6 series for the black. For the other colors (blue, red, brown, tan), I used Oracal series 651. None of the blue, red, brown or tan colors overlap each other -- so there is only 1 color on black for the entire graphic.
What happened After I installed the graphics, the guy put three or four coats of a water-based sealer on the floor. A couple of weeks later, he calls back and says much of the brown and some of the tan vinyl is starting to curl up and/or peel off. NONE of the black is coming off.
Why? Basketball season will soon be in full swing and the school is going ballistic. I'd like to repair the damage but there are so many variables I don't know where to start: 1. The floor guy, at the request of the school, used water-based sealer for the first time. Could this be a problem? (I say not too likely. I used water-based sealer on my little shop floor. Then again, the gym floor gets much more traffic than my shop, lol). 2. The Avery vinyl did not fail (to this point, anyway), but some of the Oracal did. Would I be OK to redo colors with Avery A6, or even Avery A9 premium? 3. The floor guy is afraid if I re-vinyl we will have problems. He wants me to try to paint the colors on top of the black vinyl. This would require Frog Juice, or something else to make the vinyl enamel-receptive, wouldn't it? How would that react with the top coat of sealer?
I apologize for the long post.
I've got about a week to get this resolved in one way or another. Any ideas would be much appreciated.
[ November 12, 2004, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: Marc Estep ]
Posted by Gene Golden (Member # 3934) on :
Marc, This sounds like a unique problem for sure. My first guess is that I would have gone with a premium vinyl from the git-go. That said, I would probably not trust that anything be put on top of this previously sealed flooring. I would imagine that if you can even remove the existing vinyl, it will be a lot of work.
Here's a suggestion of how it may work. Cut around the existing "colors", all the way to the flooring, and use the black as a paint mask. Fill in your new colors. Remove the black vinyl "mask" and paint it also. Use paint of the floor person's chosing. This will work ONLY if you don't have to use extreme solvents to remove the vinyl glues, otherwise you will be removing fresh paint as you attempt to clean up the black masking residue. Even then this is all academic because I've never had to fix THIS particular mess, just several other types.
Posted by Marc Estep (Member # 4349) on :
Thanks, Gene. Sounds like a doable solution. Still wish I knew what caused the problems so we could avoid it in the future, however. Mike
Posted by William DeBekker (Member # 3848) on :
Marc, here's a possible theory but I'm no vinyltoligist. Calendered vinyl has the glue applied after it is extruded and what seems to me what is happening is there is something in the Clear that is causing the material to separate even though its "Water based" it could still have a chemical that is seeping in between the glue and vinyl and causing it to delaminate then as the clear is drying more causing the vinyl to lift and shrink causing the curl. I'm not going to start the debate over Oracal and Avery But I have had similar problems when using Oracal
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
Gene...since he said the black is not lifting at all . . .
I'm just wondering if he could cut away the colours that ARE lifting and just paint those areas in with acrylics . . . . just an idea/question . . . . Posted by Tom Giampia (Member # 2007) on :
Marc, I wish I had an easy "Fix" for you, but I don't. As for possible reasons for the failure, some questions I have are: How long between the time you put the vinyl down and the first coat of sealer? Did you lay the vinyl down wet? Did the floor guy buff the floor between coats? This could generate heat on the vinyl. What did you use to clean the black before putting on the other colors?
There may be some solvent or solution that gassed-out after the sealer was put on.
Posted by Marc Estep (Member # 4349) on :
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tom Giampia: [QB]How long between the time you put the vinyl down and the first coat of sealer? I think they put the sealer down the next day. Could've been the 2nd day after.
Did you lay the vinyl down wet? Dry. I NEVER apply any vinyl wet.
What did you use to clean the black before putting on the other colors? Nothing. The other colors were applied as soon as the tape was removed from the black.[/b]
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