The image below is a sign created and installed by a "franchise" shop in our area...Sign-a-something or other...
I never felt the sign was the right style choice for a header sign in front of a large soybean plant, but the choice of SUBSTRAITE and the INSTALLATION was destined to fail from the start.
The sign was made on some kind of veneered PVC board ( its not Sintra or Kometex which probably would have broke just as easily.
Some folks just should not be in the sign business for this very reason.
[ November 02, 2004, 12:01 AM: Message edited by: Dave Draper ]
Posted by Dave Cox (Member # 3517) on :
they're gonna have to reset their "Safe days" now.
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
I love those posts, too. That is some high class fabrication there, let me tell you.
WTH were they thinking? Oh, I guess they wern't.
Never mind.
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
Let's learn something from this disaster. How should this type of installation be done?
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Looking at the picture, we can see that the PVC posts they used (I am guesing two 6' posts)weren't long enough. So instead of doing it right and locating longer PVC (which can be had) they screwed, or should I say cobbed, the two posts together.
Notice how the near post is twisted. That mean, to me, that there is no internal support in that pipe. PVC was a poor choice for this install.
Obviously the choice of material is wrong. It was a cobbed job all the way around. It is this type of crap work that gives the Craft, as a whole, a black eye.
That Sign should have had a 1.5"x1.5" angle iron frame covered with .040" aluminum set between 4" steel posts set 48"-60" into the ground with concrete.
I bet you dollars to doughnuts that they were the low bidders, too.
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
HA!! Steve!
Well, less'ee . . .I learnt right off the bat that, drive-thru signs are NOT a good idea . . . .
And have'nt I been preachin' against cooler-grade styrofoam??
But I do see one major, glaring problem . . . no landscaping!!!!
Hey Bruce, you mean ya cain't 'scab-on' a post this way !???! UH!! Drats! WHAT AM I gonna do with all these short posts I have??!!
lol Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
At a glance, it looks like the posts are "seamed" togeteher with some bolts of some sort just above the ground. Major no-no.
Gotta agree with Bro Bruce...just bad planning on materials.
3/4" MDO would hold up and take a pretty good hit without snapping that way.
BTW: How did this one ever get approved when the company it was made for manufactures steel and rolled metal products?
Oh well...
Coffee anyone? Rapid
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
Oh wait, . . .was this just the banner made for the football team they sponsor to run thru??? LOL
Posted by Dave Draper (Member # 102) on :
One thing is that the posts are wood, with a slip cover PVC over the top of the post. The problem with 4 x4 wood posts is that they can warp. And they did.
This is (was) a double face sign. A better way to engineer this job would be to use 2 sheets of substrate with the posts inset 12 inches from each side. Then there would only be a distance of 65 inches beween posts to prevent the sign from warping. 12"sign edge to post + 3.5" post + 65" middle gap + 3.5" post + 12" to edge of sign which equals 96 inches.
Next, it is just to high in the air, there is no purpose for a sign on that street to be anymore than 18 inches off the turff.
Cosmetically, this sign looks more like a job site sign, or a commercial realty "for sale" than a "business" sign. They could have "boxed" in the sign, with 2x4s to make it more sturdy and more business like in appearance. It would then barely pass for a "header" sign.
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
I'm sure the purchasing agent took numerous bids and bought at the lowest possible price, so in reality they got exactly the crap they paid for. Not that it will make any difference; in most companies the purchasing agent's performance is rated not on buying quality, but on saving money on each purchase. In a company that sets that kind of criteria, he or she could buy a sign like this five times, and be doing a "better" job than by spending more and getting one sign that will look decent and last.
I file pics like this in a folder with the notation: "I am eternally eased and uplifted by the incompetence of my competitors."
Posted by Monte Jumper (Member # 1106) on :
Suspending a sign "between" two posts is a recipe for disaster whether it comes today or months from now. Sooner or later it will fall apart...
I just won't do it ...if this sign had two faces with 4"x4" treated posts it would be there for years instead of weeks. An additional $40.00 sheet of material is a lot cheaper than having anyone see this kind of failure on one of your products.
In my mind there is no better way to install this type (size) sign.
Oh and my method has a "0" failure rate with a minumum amount of structure. This one is "0" for "0".
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
Monte,
I have 4x8x .040 up to .080, signs mounted(suspended?) between two posts . . .4x4' (and 6x6') lumber and iron.
WOOD: 2x4 treated framing with qty.4 - 3/8"x 4" lags screwed thru frame to treated posts . . .
Iron: 1" up to 2" angle-iron frame bolted thru to 2" up to 4" square tubing . . . .
Ain't ever had any problems . . . Posted by fayette pivoda (Member # 4339) on :
I'm curious, did this happen on the 39th day?
Posted by jimmy chatham (Member # 525) on :
i mount 4x8 alumacore between 4x4 pvc post all the time with a pvc 2x4 top and bottom.
if it needs to be taller i use 5x5 12 foot pvc post.
no problems yet.
Posted by Monte Jumper (Member # 1106) on :
What you just described Shiela was something much more substansial and costly than the sign in question.
I was trying to stay within that realm ...I'm sure yours is plenty strong but look at how much more you are talking about doing...
apples and oranges here I think...
Everyone has their approach...this is mine for a strong inexpensive way to accomplish the task in a minimum amount of time and have it as strong 5 years from now as it is when installed.
[ November 03, 2004, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: Monte Jumper ]
Posted by Dave Draper (Member # 102) on :
The sign above was installed about two years ago. It developed a crack in the bottom about a yera ago and slowly worked its way up a to about 18 inches high.
Someone even tried to quick fix it.
Then last week we had 50 mile per hour winds and it couldn't take the stress.
I drive by this plant everyday. I could see it coming unraveled day by day. We had offered them a stucco monument sign but they never got back to us. They even took down a redwood sandblasted sign, which only needed a repaint (however the logo was the older version) and then replaced it with the above sign.
Oh well! Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
This is the way I do it. It's two sheets of .040 with a PT 2x4 frame inside. The metal is fastened to the perimeter of the frame with stainless steel screws and with either silicone or liquid nails on the rest of the studs. Big lag screws are screwed through the posts into the frame. Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
That looks great Wayne!! Much more elegant and cleaner than my method . . .
I do something similar with one sheet of .040 in a 2x4 PT frame . . .the panel fits in a 3/4" kerf in the 2x4 framing . . .sort'a 'snaps on the alum all around and is screwed thru the edge of the 2x4 thru to the alum w/ deck screws, and then counter-sink 4 lags in the frame to the posts. . .
I've been tellin' Judy I was gonna make a small one to show her . . .I'll make one for the Dixie meet . . .
Not a structure style you'd wanna use for a higher end client . . .Your design is much more appropriate for that . . .
but really good for a standard framed 4x8, and you can use both sides of one panel.
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
That internal frame design idea came from Michael Boone and the sign made it through hurricane Ivan.
That seems like a cost effective method, Sheila. I don't see why it wouldn't be strong enough. Your deck screws will keep your .040 panel from blowing out, the 2x4's keep the panel from "floppin" sideways and the panel itself would keep the 2x4's from sagging. Are you cutting a kerf with the tablesaw?
[ November 04, 2004, 07:04 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Webb ]
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Rolling On The Floor]](graemlins/rolf.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
