This is topic The DIFFERENCES between Sign Designers & Graphic Designers ( A Discussion Topic) in forum Letterhead/Pinstriper Talk at The Letterville BullBoard.
Ok....gotcha, with an attention grabbing headline.
The REAL topic will be the differences between SIGN designers and GRAPHIC Designers. It's something that a lot of us haven't really given any serious consideration to, but I happen to think there are some pretty significant "differences". Knowing these, and being aware of them could make the difference in selling a potential customer on your personal "worth" as a professional sign designer.
The first significant difference is the "media" with which we work. Generally, Graphic Designers tend to design for the print media, and their efforts are often seen by the viewers at arm's length or less, and also usually when they're more or less, stationary. Signs, on the other hand, are usually viewed from a distance, and often while the viewer is travelling.
The sign designer usually has to consider things like the physical placement of the finished sign, and the setbacks and sightlines that affect those decisions. Graphic Designers usually don't work under such constraints, and I've even known of some who will design a sign without so much as doing a "site inspection". Shouldn't the environmental background against which a sign will be viewed be a consideration?
The actual content of a sign is another area where these 2 design disciplines will collide. Most good sign designers recognize the principle that "less is more", and strive toward that objective. Sometimes, the Graphic Designers don't pay that much attention to this axiom, forgetting that the sign viewer has only mere seconds to absorb any message being communicated to them. The result is that we see ineffective signs that contain far too much information for any viewer to comprehend, much less recall.
Designing IN SCALE is another difference that I sometimes have noticed. How often have you received a layout from a Graphic designer, that bears no proportional relationship to the actual size of the sign being painted.
Contrast and color selection: How often have you seem colors that are too close tonally, or in hue, to work effectively on a sign? They might look good in a magazine or brochure, but when used in the sign media, simply just don't have it?
Letterstyle selection: How often have you seen a specific letterstyle(font) used on a sign that really would have been far more effective, had a different letterstyle been used? Some letterstyles do work effectively in the printed media, but are far less effective when used on signs. Again, something that Graphic Designers sometimes do, that Sign Designers don't.
Those are just SOME of the major differences that I've noticed, but I'm certain that many of you have noted others. I'm hoping that you good folks will contribute some of your observations, and that we can collectively identify some of the BIG differences that set us apart, and that you can use to significantly influence a potential client on your worth and experience as a Sign designer.
[ September 26, 2004, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: Ken Henry ]
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
Interesting topic Ken, I'm going to follow this one closely - it should generate some valuable information. I consider myself a sign and graphics designer, and as such we have to know the differences between design for signs and design for printed materials. As sign makers we are often involved in creating the initial logos and I know a lot of us also offer website services, printing services, promotional items etc. For myself, this information will be valuable as a checklist to run my designs through. Often, I know things, but I forget them in the creative flurry. Posted by William Bass (Member # 4929) on :
I think Mike Steven's principles apply to printed materials (Rick Chavez disagrees).
I think less is more in printed materials, too (perhaps to a SLIGHTLY less degree than signs).
Font choice can sometimes be limited in reversed copy on print jobs due to dot gain...if the letters will be fairly small...you shouldn't used serif text styles.
Posted by Glenn Thompson (Member # 1851) on :
The graphic people like to use fonts and lines soooo thin that they can hardly be weeded let alone read. A couple of the local graphic guys are trained( I've spent many hours showing them the difference) to send me what I need without having to redo their work, but there are still some that I cringe at the thought of receiving a file from them for a sign.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
ok...from a sign painters view, all who seem take on the lable "graphic designer," can only work in a confined medium called a computer, where everything is either pre-drawn, template, or selectable as to what the designer is trying to create. this is not a bad thing but, without any ability of eye hand coordination, imagination is not used as readily. since i can draw, and can sketch, my minds eye is already seeing the finished product before its even laid on paper. so i can tweek and change things in a nano second in my head with out a lot of disruption. i agree with glen, you can tell a sign was made by a graphic designer by... the weight of the letters, the use of lower case when it should all be upper case, placement of WHO, WHAT, AND HOW to contact the business. i chuckle when i see a banner with lower case letters on it.......why, you want it to be seen..dont cha. what works on a business card....dont alway translate to a 4' x 8' sign.
Posted by William Bass (Member # 4929) on :
My dad can hand-letter and draw and sculpt; he can visualize in his mind. I have to have a computer, and I cannot visualize in my mind. My designs do tend to be boring and stiff.
I still think Mike Steven's design principles work on both printed materials and signs. However, yes, I agree, that there are differences between the two formats...especially...
1) the amount of time item will be viewed 2) the distance from which item will be viewed 4) the size of letters and formats (substrates) 5) and, sometimes, the purpose of viewing
[ September 26, 2004, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: William Bass ]
Posted by W. R. Pickett (Member # 3842) on :
...I am BOTH a graphic designer and sign designer. I mostly make signs, but what I am is really a "graphic' designer.
...Being a sign designer (only) IS limiting, For example, I have many clients who own restaurants, and they all need to have graphic work made for other media. Like someone has to lay their menus out right? Why should anyone else do it when I designed the logo?
...I'm in business to make my clients successful and I want to be in control of as much of my their art work as possible (to do it)...and I want as much of my clients money as possible too.
Posted by William Bass (Member # 4929) on :
Particularly arrangement of information. That is one of Mike Steven's principles of design that people in the print business really need to learn.
Business cards are the worst. They have similar information scattered all over the place (usually shoved into each corner). Mike Steven's teaches one to group information together based on similarity as musch as possible. I do this on business cards quite easily (regardless of what a certain Letterhead in California might think ) I also have done this in magazine ads and post cards.
My printed materials DO tend to look more SIGN-like, and I, for one, am proud of that fact. My customers and others have also seemed to positively note the difference.
One word of caution is that you must be careful not to use font sizes that are too small so OCCASIONALLY you must sacrifice a little optical appeal in order to have readability...it's very rare...and usually re-wording or re-ordering the info will allow you to have BOTH readability and optically pleasing designs.
I believe there is a minimalist movement now occurring in the graphic design realm...it's about time.
I really don't have a tremendous amount of experience in either signs or printed designs, but, from the little that I do have, I suspect that the customers' natural desire to put more information than needed is worse for printed materials than for signage.
[ September 26, 2004, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: William Bass ]
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
Hey Joe ....How come your surroundings are so colorful when you live in such a black and white world? I think there were graphic designers around long before computers, computers are just another tool. I'd consider some of the ledgedary greats more graphics artists than signpainters...... Am I about to be flamed..... Posted by William Bass (Member # 4929) on :
I actually consider sign people to be graphic designers. We all arrange graphic elements on formats...that's graphic design...Mike Steven's principles apply...questions like how the design will be viewed, from what distance, etc. should be asked by all graphic designers for the particular job at hand.
Posted by Rovelle W. Gratz (Member # 4404) on :
I consider myself lucky that I started out with Signs, then went to graphic design and illustration.
I beg to differ with OP about the medium of the graphic designer. I started out many years before the computer became the tool of choice for the graphics designer. Remember pens and compasses and templates and freehand brush work with oils, acrylics, water colors and whatever it took? I do, and still use them.
As an illustrator I have used many mediums to accomplish the final product, whether it be for print or sign.
I met an illustrator when I lived in Bermuda, that was a college graduate. She came to me to take over the showcard work for some of the clubs there. She stuck around to watch me do one of the cards promoting a Band. From start to finish, it probably took me 45 minutes.
She told me it took her about 12 hours to do each one she had done. She drew each letter, then outlined each letter, then filled in the centers. She probably worked for about $2 an hour.
This was a typical example of someone working outside their box, which should have had a lock on it.
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
W.B!!!It that the only book you have? I sure hope not....your gonna need a lot more than that book. With over 1200 in my collection and magazines going back as far as 1930, I can't remember seeing Mike Steven in every layout, and with the John Follis Book years earlier, "Architectural Signing Handbook" 1978, The Legibility of Signs" in 1969 in a graphic design magazine called "Print" I find it hard to believe that one source is the only one a person can look to. But what do I know, I have a lot of experience in print and signage from floor sweeping to designer..... On the subject of "graphic designers", they are broken down to different specialties, and in turn broken down even more by sub-specialities, New Media or Web-design is one of them. It's getting harder to find just a "graphic designer" I think where this subject might be getting is, is that should graphic designers design signs? Should a sign designer design a catalog, t-shirt line, complete identity system the size of Bank of America, website deseign(more than the basic ones I have see) Magazines, Advertising campaign that includes ads. promo items etc. an Olympics games like Salt Lake City, I personally think it's a rarity that a sign designer can, unless they have some experience with it. Many sign people are very limited in thier ability to design because MOST will only base it on thier limited use of materials and techniques they know. You get get a one man shop against a themed builder, it will be wildly different. I have spouted off a few times about "Environmental Graphic Designers", most of the substantial work is going to them and I don't see this trend changing soon. They are trained to design in scale, trained in material use, most of them consider codes when needed, view distance, placement, wayfinding principles, color, and are not limited to material use since the signs will go out to bid to a qualified sign company. Sign designers are graphic designers. just specialized like many graphic designers are.
Posted by William Bass (Member # 4929) on :
Actually, it is the only book I have on the subject of design. I wish I had a few more, but I will not be getting any anytime soon.
I agree with much of what you say, and your experience, if I shared it, might cause me to change my mind. And I think you are right that most graphic designers specialize (and that is probably best, to some extent). And, because they specialize, they have problems in other graphic design fields.
However, With the possible exception of tribal flames or whatever, I have trouble seeing how Mike Steven's concepts do not apply in ALL graphic design projects. The info should be grouped according to subject matter and importance. Stroke width, axis, letterstyle should be varied in a way to help the eye sort the info appropriately. Graphic elements WILL appear related to whatever element they are positioned closest to. Brightness, color, and contrast are tools with which to help the eye sort out info, etc.
A building, a van, a 4x8, a biz card, a magazine page...these are all formats. Logos and letters and pictures are all graphic elements.
In regards to the properties of materials, zoning requirements, viewing distances and conditions, etc....a graphic designer should educate himself for the job at hand if he is unfamiliar with one or more of the variables involved.
I suppose that, ultimately, graphic design is art, and therefore subjective...I just REALLY like Mike's ideas. Honestly, I am so un-creative that I couldn't design without his concepts. I know a guy here in town, his work looks really good...I loaned him my Mike Steven's book...and he didn't really care for it. But that guy is very creative (an artist...something, which really I am not). He appropriately named his company Creative Instinct Signs & Designs.
However, unwittingly perhaps, his work does generally follow Mike Steven's principles (he just has a creative flair and my stuff looks quite boring).
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
I doubt you would change your mind, nor do I care, you brought it up on this topic, not me. You already make a close minded statement with little or no experience....you will make a great sign guy.
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
I've done many things through my 35 year career. I've done many, many logos, lots of printed stuff and tons of signs. Rarely is a business card, printed matter and signage exactly the same. They serve different purposes, are viewed differently and subsequently need to be designed or at least tweaked to fit their ultimate purpose.
I've always had trouble wearing a label, or even finding one that truely fits, for I do it all at various times depending on what my customers need. I consider myself a sign person, graphic designer, illustrator, planner, construction person, welder, fabricator, sculpter, painter, and a thousand other things.
I market my varied skills as a valuable asset to my clients. I don't just know how to design, but also have many years of hands-on experience in building the ultimate project. This doesn't diminish my value as a designer but rather increases it and so I charge accordingly for that time. Ultimately, if I design something, almost anybody with a fair amount of skill and the appropriate tools could fabricate it... and with this logic the most valuable part of the design is the original idea and concept.
Good design is good design no matter what the medium. And bad design is likewise. An outstanding design won't work for every purpose either.
When we design for a job we hopefully keep in mind all aspects of the site and the intended final use. It makes sense.
We can throw rocks at the folks on the other side of the fence I suppose, for what that's worth. But I would venture that some of our work done for purposes other than what we are familiar with doesn't work every single time either.
I have more than a few projects out there that I would love to see go away. The worst ones seem to last the longest, sometimes decades past the life of a good job. And even the best of us doesn't bat perfectly. I know I sure don't.
I think there is a certain amount of jealousy of graphic designers by sign folks who don't charge enough for the value of their design time.
I know as a designer I've charged more for my ideas and time than the sign folks who did the job got paid, materials included. Does that make me the bad guy or just a good business man??
Good design will hide a lot of bad craftsmanship., but all the good craftsmanship in the world won't save a bad design.
-dan
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Well...I am certainly not God's gift to "designers" but I have managed to survive in this business for around 12 years.
So my comment will be just a personal observation about one particular layout.
A very good client of mine (national company) decided to pay a design firm to update their "identity". I actually find the "logo" part of the design to be fairly attractive and, although different than the previous logo, it still retains enough of the original logo to be instantly recognized as the same company.
What I find hard to swallow is all the "secondary" copy... The actual company name, local store's addresses, and phone numbers etc.
These are all set at between 1.5" and .5" in height and in a fairly light weight letterstyle. This information, which IS important to the local stores will be virtually unreadable as the trucks roll down the road, and even when parked will be unreadable at any distance over about 10'.
The sad part is...This company paid many thousands of dollars for this design, which will be very nice on letterhead and business cards, but is useless for "sign" use. In fact, I was told to be prepared to make modifications to the secondary copy to make it readable. I will do that at no cost, of course, because it is just a matter of enlarging and/or "bolding" the lettering.
That's my humble contribution to this thread.
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
Sunny Michigan here.....
Wow! Some great input here. I have definate ideas and feelings here:
Artists are as diverse as most other fields. There are varying levels of talent and imagination.
I agree that a "sign artist" keeps in mind plotter limitations, installation challenges, and local ordinances. For the most part, I keep track of these things. But, a top notch designer, which I have had the honor of working with, (even currently), considers these things as well as budgets, feasability of design reproduction and the media that the final product will ultimatly be produced on.
However, I think that alot of those diffences are up to interpretation. Basically, you hire what you need. Normally, you need one or the other. We happen to need a person with both talents. Just my .02, (as mixed up as it is).
[ September 27, 2004, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: Rick Beisiegel ]
Posted by fayette pivoda (Member # 4339) on :
Graphic designers measure in points, we sign folk measure in inches, size does matter ya know.
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
Dave I'm wondering about this statement... (and please don't take it personally) I just want to illustrate a point.
quote:I will do that at no cost, of course, because it is just a matter of enlarging and/or "bolding" the lettering.
Why would you not charge at least something for this service. The client obviously values design services as they just paid a 'DESIGNER' good $$$ to do just that. And he (or she) obviously screwed up. By not charging them at least a token fee you diminish the value of YOUR design ability.
While I don't argue the value of the other designers services and ability, I think you sell yourself short on yours.
We as a group of professionals need to separate the products and services we sell - at least in our own minds. And if we see design services and the ability to do the same as a VALUABLE COMMODITY we will have less reservations about being paid for them.
Even if you had not itemized the design services on the bill for this sign I think you should have put a value to them.
Design is much more than simply time spent... you are selling ideas and years of experience.
I hear much moaning and groaning about the lack of good design. This small item is what separates you from all the other wannabe shops out there.
-dan
Posted by Latigo St.Marie (Member # 5014) on :
There's a definite difference for me. My Father got his degree in graphics and worked in an advertising design agency for 12 years before he burned out with an ulcer. After that he did other things in the art world and opened the studio we have now. He's an illustrator first, and everything else second. Its not easy to find a true graphics artist in the sign industry. I know I read about the really big sign companies who hire a true graphics artist to run that department. Those are graphics artists. Most of us are very good sign/design people who call everything we do "graphics". Not to me it isn't.
Latigo
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
kelley....i dont understand your saying i live in a black and white world....i was just stating how i see the diferance between the 2. i was drawing since i was 4-5 yrs old. grade school i was drawing way beyond most in the class. ive said this befor my mom owned a bar and this old "shaky jake" guy named "wizard haynes" showed up one day for a drink and he was the only person who saw what i was a capable off and gave me all he could at that time. he gave me my set of quills when i was 12-13. so i been makin signs a long time..and learnin more as i go. in high school i got hooked on the DRAFTING classes, loved doing perspectives and archetecual renderings, most of it "freehand"! so after high school i went to drafting school. it was interrupted by the draft and nam...so i never completed the school, but hay its only a piece of paper. i still worked as a draftsman for few years. i also wound up going to college at 30....and yep what else, an art major, pottery being top priority. was the assistant to the art prof, when he wasnt there i taught....also we worked CON-ED classes for adult education in the local area. so i dont think im black and white here....got lots of "vision" and in mulit color....heheheh. rove and this is also in answer to you,i was takin the "graphic artist" in todays terms..not when we was youngins....yes you had to be able to draw then to be a graphic artist....but not required today. we also hada another "artist" in my area, who after he got outa the navy went into sign painting. now this was mid fifty's and with out "inner vision" and eye hand coordination, you could not do this line of work. he did some billboardsand rented my parents other building...it was a large old store....so it was a lot of open area. mike(this sign artist) taped butcher paper together, the size of the billboard he was to paint and i saw my fist pounce pattern being...DRAWED...yep he worked on his hand and knees on this floor and HAND DREW, the whole thing, like a big mural. he then took me with him to the billboard(it was low one almost ground level)and let me do some "fill painting" and it was then i new i was hooked....hehehehehe
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
I think people just need to focus on themselves, their own talents and their own skills and not worry about what the next guy is doing.
Posted by John Stagner (Member # 4091) on :
Wow. A lot of pretty intense feelings here. We do a great deal of all types of design, and have made more layout/font/color mistakes than you can shake a stick at! I look back at some early stuff we did, and I'd like to cover it up the way a kitty covers stuff up in a litterbox. We still make poor choices sometimes - I just hope they aren't the same ones repeated. My library on design looks just like William's - I've got the Mike Stevens book, and several Signcraft mags. Does that make me less creative or knowledgable? Of course not - I've got HUNDREDS of years of experience at my fingertips, everytime I log on to Letterville! If in doubt, all I have to do is ask. What more could a person want?
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
No offense taken Dan..
I have been doing the delivery trucks and storefront windows for this company for 9 years now and I have no problem spending 5 or 10 minutes resizing some words on a layout for their new vehicles.
At the level of business they provide me annually it is 5 or 10 minutes well spent for free.
I do understand what you are saying, however. And if it were for someone who wasn't a valued regular client I would and do charge for my time.
Posted by William Bass (Member # 4929) on :
Dave,
I would consider that goodwill, and even an investment in a client (much cheaper than advertising for new clients if you tick a good client off...imho)
But I do understand Dan, too. I think it's great if a guy CAN do that. I'm afraid I would do it for free, too, though.
Posted by William Bass (Member # 4929) on :
Rick.
I hope I didn't offend you. I apologize if I did. I said I agree with much of what you say, and that perhaps I would have a different perspective if I had your experience.
I actually curious which particular Mike Steven's principles do not apply in certain cases, but I have a knack for coming across wrong in the printed word.
I also admitted that I am not an artist. I'm more of a typesetter/computer kind of guy...so I find Mike Steven's principles have helped me make more optically appealing designs (still quite dull) than if I didn't know them.
Correction...I actually no longer have Mike's book either, I just remember it so well, it's as though I still own it.
BTW, Rick...I have considered some of your criticisms concerning my biz card...I probably will NOT list my services on it as a result. So I do respect your opinions.
Ultimately, the main goal is to make profit...and if your doing that...your doing something right. (Right now, I'm just a Hardee's Biscuit Cook with a plotter).
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
Man, we had this ...I thought, fun converstaion about this on the chat one night where I stated very eloquently with lotsa artsy-fartsy words what that difference might be, after asking a million questions. . . .
but now I'm thinkin'.... it might be like what the difference between an architect and an actual builder is. . .ever seen the arky-tek-suits come out on an actual job site in their little ties and hard-hats? . . . AND try to tell the builder he's doin' somethin' wrong, yet the architect has NEVER used a hammer in his life. (...Ever got sign-specs from an architect?! )
BUT, when you have a guy who's and architect AND a builder, you have the cream-of-the-crop. This is a person can design AND execute a great many more do-able, beautiful & yet practical structures.
So, ain't that like us?
Posted by William Bass (Member # 4929) on :
Well put, Sheila. That's the thing...we are all graphic designers...but if we design something without knowledge of materials, use, manufacturing requirements, etc....we're
quote:the arky-tek-suits (who) come out on an actual job site in (our) little ties and hard-hats? . . . AND try to tell the builder he's doin' somethin' wrong, yet (we have) NEVER used a hammer in (our lives).
This applies to sign guys who design print and printers who design signs and vehicle letterers who do an archectural job...etc. Since I have so little experience...I might wind up being the "arky-tek" with a tie.
Posted by Ken Henry (Member # 598) on :
Hi again folks. Well we've had some very interesting responses so far, and some good points raised. The topic wasn't introduced to foster any ill will toward those who wear the Graphic Designer hat. I do admire some of their work, and at one time did subscribe to Ca and Graphis magazines for some design inspiration. This discussion was introduced in the hope that those who aspire to be good Sign Designers could consider and identify some areas of specialization that makes us somewhat UNIQUE in the design area. As Sheila pointed out, it's one thing to design something, but often quite another to make that design WORK at a practical level. In a sense, it's part of defining who we actually are, and why that makes our knowledge valuable. As others have pointed out, we all too often don't value ourselves or our expertise highly enough. It's almost as though we exist as the "builders", but not the architects.
Posted by Kelly Thorson (Member # 2958) on :
Sorry Joe - I didn't mean to offend you at all. I was just joking because there seemed to be such a clear line between "Them & Us". I guess I think that there is much more gray area. First and foremost I consider myself an artist, but if any one was to ask if I was a graphics designer or a sign maker I'd say yes to both. Hope this clarifies things. K
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
None taken William, this is a sucky form of communication, I'm sure in person this would be a nice friendly chat....
As a rule, I treat signage as only part of an identity package or system, whether it's taking cues from a logo, architecture, surrounding or theme, I never design a logo to signage only, too many sign people do. Signage is also diverse in it's designer's/builders ability and skills. If you only do coroplast, banners and MDO, you probably should not try ADA, DOT or a complex wayfinding systems. We sign people have the same variety as graphic designer in that we can only do signs within our skill sets....if we design out of our skill sets, we vend out, we can be closer to Arky-teks since we lack that ability to build it, but have enough sense to design it. By the way, a design/build architect is just as limited as a one man sign shop if they had to build a airport or skyscraper...having done signage on structures you can appreciate the better Architects and Engineering firms. On Kens comment on being the builders and not the "Archtects" toward being the architects, this is happening now, but most people can't see the potential or are too stubborn to think a little differently. There is also a lot of work involved by knowing wayfinding, ADA, DOT, Designing to huge proportions or scale, or projects with a million dollars worth of signage. You can also keep the current client but offer more by offering a complete system of identity...past the 4 color shiney cards, and letterhead font, Photoshop trickery, or slapping Gemini letters on a building and calling it "Architectural Signage"
On the Mike Stevens book, many of us have little control on what goes on a sign anymore, Dave can adjust or thicken type a little bit, but layout, rythym and copy interpretaion only works if all elements are controlled by the designer....usually, they are not. I am looking at page 33 Reserved Parking sign Fig. 35 is preffered, but in a parking lot, there are now a lot more sign types, this approach may not work with Handicap Parking Stalls, Legal Notices and maybe some directionals and address, then that can effeft the identity signs and address signs as well, then you have to design to the uniform readable system not sigle particular signs with thier own priority read. On Page 37 Figure 37-39 It would be better to see this excercise done with one logo since sign designers are usually not at liberty to change a logo like in the book, then you add to it the priority read, with colors that may not work, you comprimise to allow identity and readabilty with the style and idenity of the company. Certain logos will look horrible with some typefaces, if you had complete freedom you can pick and choose, not so if there is a company standard.
Like I said it is a good book for layout, for print, I think books on typography, working within grids, Logo design and identity principles,page layout, printing techniques, books on clients with linmited budgets have more worth to a graphic designer....a lot of these books I have posted on this board. I always hear the term "design is subjective"...it is not. Either it works or it doesn't. If I design a chair that falls over, it could be beautifull, but if it falls over when you sit on it, is it good design?....same with a sign, or graphic design, does it communicate with it's intended audience or purpose? If it does, it's good design....not liking how it looks though, that is subjective.... This is a fun subject, being a sign guy who happens to be a graphic designer, I have the pleasure of seeing both sides.
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
I think the real difference between a sign designer and graphic designer is exactly that...the names.
Call yourself a "sign" designer and the average customer will associate your work to signs, which can be somewhat limiting at times. For the most part, they will not think to hire you for logo design, business cards, etc. although you may be capable of producing them.
Call yourself a "graphic" designer and the same person will ask about the aforementioned services more frequently.
After a few years in the sign biz, I decided to ad "Custom Graphics" following my business name on my cards and shop truck. The variety of the work changed and moved into the higher end stuff as a result.
It's all about perception. Rapid
Posted by Michael Clanton (Member # 2419) on :
I tell kids that I have the greatest job in the world! I get to draw pictures, sketch, doodle, play with computers, design stuff, create, paint, sculpt...stuff I'm gonna do anyway AND get to make a living at it!
I had college art instructors who encouraged me to take any and all freelance jobs that came my way, to expand my abilities, to find stuff that I enjoyed doing, and not be confined to one dimension or stereotype-
for me, I am wired to create- I don't really care what the medium- as long as I can create! Every job has different needs and techniques, as a professional it is my desire to create to the fullest of my abilities using as many skills as I can acquire.
So call me what you will, I will just smile and keep on creating!
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
I know some "graphic designers" I wouldn't hire as a cashier. Many are nothing more than a cashier who knows how to use MS Publisher. It is way to generic because the colleges are cranking them out like popcorn, with a promise of 75,000 a year out of the chute.
Many choose a Graphics career because of how it was marketed to them, not because they have talent or aptitude. Way too much emphasis on the annual salary, and not for the love of the business.
Another .02 (guess that makes .04) Posted by Rovelle W. Gratz (Member # 4404) on :
Rapid has it right. A lot of it has to do with perception.....or first impressions.
Ever wonder what the perceptions are in the mind of a person who pops into your shop while you are doing something not really related to signs? That person probably has the idea that's what you do all the time.
While working on a CD Cover Design, a customer came in the shop and watched me for a while, I helped them pick up a job and they left. A few days later I ran accross that person in another office and he introduced me as the guy that does the CD Covers.
Another time, while lettering the window of a just opened Laundry Center, a lady asked me if I did ironing?...I told her sorry, I was just a lowly Sign Painter. I guess she thought everyone was their own sign designer and painter.
Along those lines, a guy came into the shop I was working in and told the owner he wanted to pick up his sign. The boss asked him what kind of sign?...He said, "Johnny's Barber Shop 1/4 mile". Not remembering doing the sign himself, he came in the back and asked us if we had done it.
He told the guy nobody remembered doing it, the guy asked, don't you guys keep those in stock?
[ September 27, 2004, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Rovelle W. Gratz ]
Posted by William Bass (Member # 4929) on :
haha Rovelle,
The same thing happened to my dad years ago, when he owned a sign company. Lady said she had just opened up shop and was here for her sign (storefront sign, I think)...as though dad had signs for every possible kind of biz on shelves in the back.
That's hilarious. Didn't figure it could happen twice.
Posted by William Bass (Member # 4929) on :
Sorry guys, high-traffic at this site (or something) caused a glitch and my post wuz duplicated.
[ October 05, 2004, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Steve Shortreed ]
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Hahahahahah! Grapic Designers!
This is an example of what a "GD" sent me, and what I wound up doing....after....telling him that I would NOT do such a bad design! It was a compormise....just had to have all that "stuff" on it!
Posted by William Bass (Member # 4929) on :
Rick,
Yeah. Posting is NOT the best form of communication...no tone of voice, no facial expressions, etc. The smileys help...a little...but they're kinda corny.
Yeah. I think it would a been a friendly chat.
Your point is well taken that in some cases there are constraints...for instance government requirements might come into play for handicap and similar signs. If a company has a weird logo, ya gotta work around it and so forth...or a customer has just gotta list all 50 services his company provides...etc.
Posted by Latigo St.Marie (Member # 5014) on :
Hey, Si! There's someone here who says "even an old shotgun reprobate should know the difference between a Graphic Artist and a Graphic Designer". And he says "Hi!" And he misses the group hugs?
Lat
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Latigo....just for Pierre:
[ September 27, 2004, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: Si Allen ]
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Nice job Si. I see you decided to get their arses outta bed an hour earlier while you wuz at it. Layout looks great, but I gotta ask, assuming there IS a method to your madness, what was the reasoning that got the "(909) 7 TARGET" to end up where it did? ...
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
Doug,
There was no "method". Si had to compromise with an "architect" who's never held a hammer . . .
Si's post illustrates perfectly my previous rhetorical question: . . . " . . . Ever got sign specs from an Architect?"
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
...well he did a fine job... something, as this lengthy topic confirms, that all of us have to do quite often. That number just looked so wanting to be centered to the line above it... that I figured there had to be some reasoning I was missing.
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
I know why he did it....just to tick me off.... same goes for the "8AM" compared to the "4 PM" spacing....
[ September 27, 2004, 10:49 PM: Message edited by: Rick Chavez ]
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Doug and Rick....did ya read "compromise" ????
[ September 28, 2004, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: Si Allen ]
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
OK, I get it now... graphic diplomacy... stepping up from "suck" without going so far that they can't recognize it, & get insulted Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :
I totally agree with Dan in the fact that literature vs signs should and ought to be designed differently, because they are read differently.
I've seen alot of signmaker biz cards or literature with huge secondary print where the card or ? in whole would be much more pleasing to look at if the text was smaller and more subdued. Nettie is VERY good at secondary copy tweeked to perfection!
On the other hand, some of my earlier card designs have some of the text so darn small I can't readem' with my 40ish year old eyes any longer! Posted by Latigo St.Marie (Member # 5014) on :
Well, unless you're an airbrush artist you look 20ish, not 40ish anyway. I agree with my Father. Its not usual to find a Graphic Artist in the sign business, but it IS usual to find Graphic Designer and a sign artist as being one in the same. And Donna is right too. They're actually different worlds and different education. If Dad hadn't burned out in the Graphics industry at 30something he'd never have been in the sign business. I, for one, am glad he burned out. I know I'd never be carving if things hadn't gone that direction.
Latigo
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Graphic Designer education, and I do both: graphic design and sign stuff. I don't think I suck.
Rick, I'd agree with the "cashier" comment, but can also say I've seen some "sign designers" who I wouldn't hire as cashiers either..
Posted by Gary Hove (Member # 4970) on :
I believe that both are different. I am trained as a sign painter, but I also do graphic design. I would not have done well in graphic design had I not taken the time to learn the rules for printed work. In that same token I know a trained graphic designer now doing signs, and it was the same for her. Design is more on the person.Imagimation is what I look for in a designer. Skills can be taught but as for raw ideas thats talent.
Posted by William Bass (Member # 4929) on :
I couldn't have done either at all if I hadn't read Mike Steven's book. I'm a science/math guy. Mike's book is the only one that broke designing down into actual CONCEPTS.
Here's a few.
Text should follow the rythym of the format (extended format = extended text)
Graphic relationship: graphic units (anything on the format) will look related to whatever they are nearest...be that another word, letter, the format edge. A well-placed dot or line can help connect two units and keep them from accidentally being associated with an unrelated element.
Stroke width is used to make things look near or far (important or less important)
A panel is a sub-format.
If you don't put enough negative space around an element...the element will make the negative space more readable than the element.
Supergraphics break all the rules.
There's casual, script, and formal fonts. These can be divided into either display or text (some can do both).
I could on and on...but you oughta buy the book.
My .02...I haven't much experience...but I have used his concepts on vans, truck, yard signs, business cards, logo design, magazine ad designs, and post cards, and building signs. Print stuff, architectural stuff, sign stuff, vehicle stuff...
If I hadn't read Mike's book, each layout would have been a tremendous, pain-staking, weeks-long work that ended in confused failure and occasionaly misunderstood success. (Of course, after the first one, no one would have asked again.)
Posted by jack wills (Member # 521) on :
Wow.....! I wish I could have all of you to help me do a sign design workshop at the upcoming "Harvest Moon" event. I see a lot of progessive adventurous thoughts and ideas about the subject. Most of all I hope to be helpful to the many new folks who have a slight degree of the "ART" side of sign design. I will say this though, I have gone many times in the past to my morgue of ideas that were ripped right off of labels at the grocery store and stuff that struck my eye from newspaper and magazine ads.
Hmmm!
CrazyJack, still lernin'
Posted by Bob Stephens (Member # 858) on :
I can't put into words what my inner eye perceives and how I can't reach a harmonious conclusion without visual intimacy in my relationships whether personal by nature or graphic.
My lust is for balance between the negative and the positive inner space of my creative universe. I only seek an orgasmic conclusion to the melding of the infinite variables that go into the graphics realm whether design or sign.
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
Dang...I just do it because it beats being stooped over picking weeds out in the field. I want to design what Bob is designing. Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
Years ago when I made my living primarily as an illustrator and graphic artist I had the chance to talk in depth with a 'genuine schooled' artist. He was a good friend and someone whose work I admire to this day.
I'm self taught... a learn it by doing kind of guy. I know what looks good to me through experience. And I've probably made just about every design mistake there is at one time or another.
Anyway... this schooled artist (with a genuine diploma and everything)gave me an honest critique of my work in an art show I was doing. He analized each piece, telling me what worked and what didn't and why. Mostly he, clearly articulated what I did instinctively. He talked of color balance, layout, hues, tones and all that stuff I still don't know much about.
I think those of us with years in the business and a passion to learn and do pick up by osmosis or reading, much like we would learn a new computer program. We go to the keyboard with a book or two and figure it out while we work on various paying projects.
Some are fortunate enough to have spent a few years in a good school learning these same things in a more formal way. When I was considering formal school I instead made a concious decision to get my learning in through hands-on experience in my own business.
At the end of it all I believe that those with the most passion will go the furthest. Simply put, education or years of experience isn't going to necessarily make you a wonderful designer. Passion combined with talent and hands-on experience in one form or another will take you above the rest.
-dan
[ September 28, 2004, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: Dan Sawatzky ]
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Wow, Bob. I need a cold shower!
Rapid
Posted by Dan Sawatzky (Member # 88) on :
Hey Bob
I've read throuyght your post a bunch of times trying to figure out exactly what you said. I still haven't a clue, but I believe you nailed it.
-dan Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
I don't know what Bob said either, but it sounds like it ought to be worth a lot of money. Somebody would realy Ooh and Ahh after a statement like that. Hopefully, it would be the person writing the check.
Hey, that may be the difference! If you can talk like Bob then you are a Graphic Designer.
Posted by Bob Stephens (Member # 858) on :
LOL...but I really do talk like that with my clients and they can't wait to give me the deposit check!
It's not what you say but how you say it is what I always say when asked what to say about any given situation.
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
Sunny Michigan checking in:
Ponderous man, ponderous!
One moment of silence for Mr. Stephens.............
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
LOL BOB!! God I LOVE it when you talk like that . . . .
Posted by mark zilliox (Member # 3873) on :
This seems to be very "debatable" topic, and some very interesting & useful opinions. I too have had many so called "designers" dictate the layout for a job i knew was wrong or "weak" for my customers benefit & success-that's the bottom line, right? There successful...were successful, repeat business & referrals etc.
Posted by Mike Clayton Graphics (Member # 723) on :
Ken,
After reading through the various posts, i guess my response would be....
What if the computer were never invented, how many "artists would be either?
After 15 years of freehand lettering and the last 5 using the computer as an aid, i have seen alot of "artists" appear.
No offense to anyone here, but you know what I mean.
As for Bob's post, I guess the voices don't only talk to me
MC
Posted by Rick Sacks (Member # 379) on :
Been doing sign for a few years now, most of what I do I design. Done many a logo, sign system,and many business cards and printed things. My training is in signs. My printed stuff is weak.
When I see a real strong piece of printed material, with each element well designed, my attention is captured and I want to study and analize it and learn from it.
After reading this series of comments, I must conclude that Rick Chavez has taught me much on this subject and I respect his knowledge and perspective.
I hope he invests the time to drive up from the desert and attend Harvest Moon so I can meet him.
![[Thanks]](graemlins/thanks.gif)
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) I also have done this in magazine ads and post cards.![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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And even the best of us doesn't bat perfectly. I know I sure don't.![[Applause]](graemlins/applause.gif)
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