I go to a bankrupty auction of a large Pager manufacturer that has its own advertising department. I bid on and get two fairly new P4 computers complete. They come with the operating system discs,license sticker on side of each computer, and all the software, books, disks, etc. On the hard drive are literally hundreds of paid for type 1 and true type fonts from many different fouundries. Now do I erase all the software, delete all the fonts, and just keep the operating system? Do I keep everything as is? This is not a rhetorical(SP)question. They sit on my work table as I speak.
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
My humble opinion....THEY paid for the fonts...YOU bought the computers from THEM with all the stuff loaded on. So I figure YOU paid for the fonts too!
Keep everything!
Edited to say that there is still only one party that will be using the purchased fonts, only now it is YOU and not THEM!!!!
[ September 16, 2004, 05:44 PM: Message edited by: Dave Grundy ]
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
On most software and fonts license's it usually stated that the purchaser (original) has the license and probably does not allow 3rd party or sub-licensed unless an authorized transfer is made.
[ September 16, 2004, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: Rick Chavez ]
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
I guess it all depends on how big the gray area is of your black and white.
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
Got this from Adobe's site which is pretty much like the rest....the gray area starts at "You may..."...which requires a little work to completely ease a delicate conscience....
4.4 No Transfer. YOU MAY NOT RENT, LEASE, SELL, SUBLICENSE, ASSIGN OR TRANSFER YOUR RIGHTS IN THE SOFTWARE, OR AUTHORIZE ANY PORTION OF THE SOFTWARE TO BE COPIED ONTO ANOTHER INDIVIDUAL OR LEGAL ENTITY'S COMPUTER EXCEPT AS MAY BE PERMITTED HEREIN. You may, however, transfer all your rights to use the Software to another individual or legal entity provided that: (a) you also transfer (i) this agreement, (ii) the serial number(s), the Software and all other software or hardware bundled, packaged or pre-installed with the Software, including all copies, upgrades, updates and prior versions, and (iii) all copies of font software converted into other formats to such individual or entity; (b) you retain no upgrades, updates or copies, including backups and copies stored on a computer; and (c) the receiving party accepts the terms and conditions of this agreement and any other terms and conditions under which you purchased a valid license to the Software. Notwithstanding the foregoing, you may not transfer education, pre-release, or not for resale copies of the Software. Prior to a transfer Adobe may require that you and the receiving party confirm in writing your compliance with this agreement, provide Adobe with information about yourselves, and register as end-users of the Software. Allow 4-6 weeks to transfer. Please visit http://www.adobe.com/support/main.html or contact Adobe's Customer Support Department for more information.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Did the fonts come on discs, & are those among the discs you mention?
The software is on the discs you mention?
I don't know what you got, but take Adobe software for example... having the disc doesn't make you the licensed owner. The original registered owner can still pay the reduced price for an upgrade & get another disc (& of course he may have all that software (& fonts) loaded on another computer from those discs he gave you. Adobe does allow a transfer of ownership & it requires a signature from the previous owner transfering registration to you so you can continue to upgrade your new second-hand software at the reduced rate.
Posted by Roy Frisby (Member # 736) on :
If it's like most auctions, you bought it where is, as is, and in it's entirety. I purchased a pay type locker unit at an auction for use as a tool cabinet. There were no keys to the lockers, therefore they were sold with all contents, which were assumed to be nothing. When I drilled out the locks I found $98.00 in quarters in the coin shute. I had given $20 for the unit. The locker was mine, along with the quarters because I purchased it legally, "as is, where is."
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
The original license holder no longer exists. Maybe that means the license dies with them, anyone think of that yet?
Seems to me if you have the computer the software was originally installed and licensed on, you would assume the license. Obviously there's no copies of that software with the same serial number anywhere else but on that one machine, unless an employee of that company swiped a copy but you have no control or knowledge of that.
Posted by Gene Golden (Member # 3934) on :
William, I'm a real stickler for copyright and licenses. In my opinion (for what that's worth), Ricks "Adobe Policy" says it all. They have transfered the rights to you, since you bought the computer. Whether it was $8 or $800 it's legally yours. I say use it and enjoy it.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Dave and Gene put it simply and directly...and Rick's post backs it up In my opinion.
You bought it, you're the only one using it...it now belongs to you.
I wouldn't lose any sleep over this one. Cheers!
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
I actually think the opposite:
I think that since they own the copyright and intellectual property...the answer is no, you do not own them or have the right to use them....UNLESS....you and the original purchaser follow the steps that Adobe requires to do it....
The question you are really asking is:
Who is responsible, the seller or you? You may not be responsible but, anytime it is used it will be an unauthorized use of thier intellectual property.
[ September 16, 2004, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: Rick Chavez ]
Posted by Mark Sheflo (Member # 3608) on :
I will agree with Rick on this one.
Your bought the computer, hard drives included (a mistake in my opinion, not yours but theirs), and it has software on the drives. Fine to this point. Any reasonable person would think that, ethically, you bought the computer, drive and all the included code on those drives and can use it how you see fit.
From your description I believe a lawyer for Adobe, Macromedia, Microsoft and/or any number of font foundries would think otherwise.
If you really want to keep using the software, fonts, images etc. then follow the money back to the source and ask for the documentation, if it can be found. Past that you could ask the software license holders (Adobe, etc.) about ownership in this situation.
Personally I would never sell a computer with the hard drives included. Too many people can find/use all kinds of information from supposedly wiped drives. Really want that drive clean so no one can pull your financial information off of it sometime in the future? Pull the drive out of the computer, pull out your trusty cordless drill an put a dozen holes in it. Alternately, you can break out your BFH and whack it a few dozen times.
Mark
Posted by dave parr (Member # 3868) on :
William, an Adobe transfer of license requires a signature of both parties. I've done it.
If you are talking about Adobe, you can find a PDF file on this page. Print it out, maybe you can still get a signature, worth a try?
Well, I know what I would do... Right or wrong.. I'd use it all...
Posted by Gene Golden (Member # 3934) on :
[QUOTEPrior to a transfer Adobe may require that you and the receiving party confirm in writing your compliance with this agreement, provide Adobe with information about yourselves, and register as end-users of the Software.] [/QUOTE]
Again, the key word is "MAY". Rick, I reread the policy and I think the main concern is that the original owner DOES NOT retain any copy on his computer and that he is not COPYING this program but IS transfering it. If all original disks exist, and were transfered with the computer and the program, and you are in posession of all, you have abided by Adobe's requirements except for the "MAY" part. I believe that's in there so they heve the OPTION to request the documentation if they suspect you of piracy. If you are abiding by A,B and C, then you are in compliance. That's MY interpretation of their rules without trying to stretch them. They were VERY concise in adding the MAY into this policy. Use it.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
quote:YOU MAY NOT ...
...EXCEPT AS MAY BE PERMITTED HEREIN...
Gene, if you think any vague wording in legalese creates opportunities for the consumer instead of limitations... well, I would have to wonder what country you're from
If the word "may" answers this question at all... it is where they say you "may not" do anything... except we MAY permit somethings.
Like dave said, I too also have went through their transfer of ownership policies. You can think what you want, but if you ever want to upgrade, you WILL need a sign off from the previous owner.
Posted by Gene Golden (Member # 3934) on :
You MAY...provided that you A, B, and C. And then they add the "may require that you confirm in writing" thingy. Okay, before an upgrade they MAY request the info... but as far as owning the license to USE the program legally... satisfy A,B and C. Again, that's my read.
Posted by Mark Sheflo (Member # 3608) on :
And you MAY continue to use the software, and the BSA MAY not show up on your doorstep, and you MAY not have a court order against you ordering you to pay Adobe and others the full license fee plus penalties.
Maybe and Maybe not, the choice is for each to make on his or her own.
Mabe they mean the month of May Eh?....so you can use the fonts in May.....
Posted by Rovelle W. Gratz (Member # 4404) on :
If you bought a truck and found it had a custom interior installed, would you take it out?
OT.....A friend once bought a box of junk for two dollars at an auction.....had a 3 pound coffee can full of quarters in it.
[ September 17, 2004, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: Rovelle W. Gratz ]
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
quote:Originally posted by Rovelle W. Gratz: If you bought a truck and found it had a custom interior installed, would you take it out?
OT.....A friend once bought a box of junk for two dollars at an auction.....had a 3 pound coffee can full of quarters in it.
Does the interior come with a copyright and not tranferable?
Posted by Steve Aycock (Member # 3612) on :
I wonder if that ADOBE legal statement is applicable to FONTS. It's looks like it is for software. Fonts are not software. They are (I believe.) intellectual property like artwork. Subject to more normal but no less complicated copyright laws.
quote:Pull the drive out of the computer, pull out your trusty cordless drill an put a dozen holes in it. Alternately, you can break out your BFH and whack it a few dozen times.
That's silly. None but the most advanced computer user can pull old information off of a drive once it's been properly cleaned out or wiped. Even then only with special proprietary software and tools.
A quick Google search for disk erasing software will give you plenty of results and options for getting rid of anything on a HDD before you sell it.
That even is overkill. If you simply run FDISK, and format the drive no one is going to be retrieving information from the drive...or no one is going to waste time trying unless you are some kind of CIA operative or the like.
Steve
Posted by Gary Hove (Member # 4970) on :
If you want the right answer then NO. The office that sold the hardware were irresponsilbe in not deleting the fonts, and that does not give you the free access to the rights. If I bought a car with your wallet in it I bet that You would not want me to use the cards inside.
Posted by Alphonse Dente (Member # 4993) on :
Having some publishing contract experience, my take on William's situation would be this.
The transaction that has transpired, is not much different than say, I purchase a font collection, and without making a copy for myself, or otherwise duplicating or infringing on the rights of that font collection's manufacturer, I give it to someone else, or even sell it to them for an amount equal to, or less than what I paid for it, because I have decided I'm just not going to use it.
When, in a publishing contract (and that is essentially what a software license is), when they specify that the purchaser can not "sell", that is in reference to repackaging and redistributing. It's much like, when you buy clip art...you can sell an image as an integral part of a design or job, but you can not make a copy and sell it.
The fonts that William posseses right now, were more than likely obtained legally (i.e., purchased), and are therefore fair game, both from a legal, and ethical standpoint.
It's about the same thing as anyone buying a used VHS copy of Planet of The Apes, or a used "Frampton Comes Alive" LP at a garage sale...whoever purchased it originally, paid the toll.
Just my two cents.
-Al
Posted by William Holohan (Member # 2514) on :
A ittle note of clarification here. This was a Sheriff's siezure and sale of a bankrupt company. Almost all ligitimate liquidation auctioneers will see to it that the hard drives are wiped with the exception of the OS if discs and license sticker are present. The sheriff in this case just "siezed and sold" "as is where is". Auctioneers only job was to "call" the items. First time I have ever bought a puter with anything on it, let alone with all the documentation and manuals/books. Over eighty computers sold at this auction. Each from their individual office cubes. Each cube had the books, disks, and manuals appropriate to the computer it housed. I imagine that many of the fonts were purchased over the net.
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
Clip-art can be either rights protected or royalty free. Really read the terms of most clip-art makers, many have clauses, like not for use in signage, logos or over a certain amount of imprints.
Fonts are protected, and thier intellectual property, it was never the auctioneers or sherriffs unless they lrecieved a tranfer of rights, use the fonts and it is unauthorized usage...
So if I, per say but DVD's, CD's or tapes at this auction, does thet make me the legal owner of the rights to do as I wish..I can show them in public, make copies, whatever, because the original owner accepted the terms but I am free and clear as a third party purchaser?
I hope I don't quadruple post this time....
[ September 17, 2004, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: Rick Chavez ]
Posted by Gary Hove (Member # 4970) on :
Why don't you contact Adobe support and ask them?
Posted by Gene Golden (Member # 3934) on :
Steve, The trademark is for the NAME of fonts. That's why we have Helvetica, Swiss, Geneva, etc. The font software is only covered in the WAY it interprets the curves and lines that represent a font e.g., where the nodes are that represent curves and what determines the spacing between the letters; that code is patented as software.
As far as the "MAY" argument goes, the lawyers didn't make a mistake. Law is all about semantics and vocabulary. MAY allows Adobe to take certain actions or to NOT take certain actions if they desire. It leaves them open to allow your transfer because: You bought it at auction and have all of the discs (proof of ownership without having to prove prior ownership), or you father died and left the computer loaded, with discs, and you are ready to upgrade. A,B, & C, again, give you outright permission to use the software as the new owner with documentation. You have satisfied their conditions for transfer as they state them. You have no way of proving that the original owner doesn't have a copy of the files on another computer, but since YOU own the discs now, you retain the rights inherent in ownership. YOU NOW HAVE THE ORIGINAL PROGRAM in its entirety.
We deal with semantics daily in producing proper signage, such as: All passengers MAY be searched for illegal substances. All passengers WILL be searched for illegal substances.
Rick, As far as the DVD,CD copying goes - you are allowed to do with those discs, the SAME things the original owner was allowed to do with them as the new owner of an original version. No more, no less.
Doug, Yes, you probably have to satisfy Adobe or any other software provider before they will allow you to upgrade, but that in no way precludes whether you MAY use the program you currently own.
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
Unless they are not Adobe, then you will have to contact all the foundries...
Posted by fayette pivoda (Member # 4339) on :
Is it ethical for the computer people to lay all these new outrageous ownership legalisms on us? Seems to me there's more creativeness in their legal departments than on their workscreens.
Ya always get what ya pay for, no more, no less. You got a good deal on the compters, but here comes the dillema, as now you have to figure out this damned license ownwership crap.
I say feel free to use the software as it was on the computers when you purchased them, and you did get the original discs, manuals (and hopefully any serial or CD key #s), and you do have a bill of sale (and hey, is not the bill of sale in effect the previous licensees 'signature of transference'?). And is not possession 9/10's of the law?
So if you decide to not go through the manufacturers resale/license transference protocols, does that in itself make you a criminal? It seems to me if the manufacturers have any beef, it should be with the previous owners whose business practices allowed the ownership issues to get out of their control (shhh, Billy Gates might read this and get the idea of getting your p/l statement and bank acct info before he sells you the Windows version!).
However, I wouldn't load this software on another computer, nor expect to be able to upgrade it until you do iron out this license ownership crap. I just don't see using the software on these computers to violate any ethical boundaries.
Concerning the fonts now, I would contact the font houses and see what they think about your owning their fonts in this situation (I say keep those font folks fat, can never be enough fonts in the world, ya know?).
(Billy, if your reading this and do adopt my idea, then you'll owe me 10% royalties)
Posted by Alphonse Dente (Member # 4993) on :
Rick,
I hope my analogy wasn't misconstrued. I didn't want to imply that if someone buys a secondhand video or album, that they are exempted from the same responsabilities as the original buyer; just that they don't need to send the record company any money, or even notice...and that the artist isn't entitled to another royalty on that resale.
I'm guessing that William wasn't asking if he could do whatever he wanted with those fonts (i.e, reproduce and distribute freely), I think his was inquiring as to whether he would be violating any licenses or laws in using them himself, which he would not be.
Let's say he KNEW the fonts were on the hard drive. He could have been bidding on the fonts at the auction, and the computers would have been nothing more than the vehicle o nwhich they were transported.
Two more cents...
-Al
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
they should dongle each font, imaging 500 protruding out the back of your computer.....
Posted by Gene Golden (Member # 3934) on :
Rick, That would solve ONE problem...
OR, each time we want to use a font it could take us to a corporate website for verification before allowing us to procede.
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
I like the dongle idea...imagine it running the length of the shop....
Posted by Suelynn Sedor (Member # 442) on :
Are you guys kidding me??? Why on earth would he delete something he bought and paid for? When/if you sell your signshops, are you not planning on ever selling the programs, etc along with all your equipment?? That is ridiculous!
Enjoy em William...you bought them!!
Suelynn
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Rick,
You gotta cut down on that coffee...
Shop length dongles... I will admit that the mental image did pop into my mind. LOL!
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
my dongle is bigger than your dongle...
Posted by Gene Golden (Member # 3934) on :
Now, IF you bought that dongle from someone, should you be able to access the font?
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
If it were me, I wouldn't worry about using them. Part of the "lot" you bought at auction included original disks, manuals, etc. of the software. Common sense tells me you bought the software from someone who no longer needs it, much like buying a used car. Do you have to ask Ford's permission before buying a used truck from your neighbor?
I suspect Adobe has the "may" wording to give them a defense to people using pirated versions. If you decide to upgrade, call and explain that you bought the software (ORIGINAL disks, etc) from a now defunct business. ASK if you can upgrade it.
If the disks were copies or the software was only on the hard drive, no disks that would be a different story. In that case, I'd delete it.
I'm not a lawyer and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, but this is what my ethics say. Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
If my 15 yr old son wants to buy a car & the previous owner left his license & registration in it... is my son licensed & registered because he got a signed receipt? I'd worry a lot less about using pirated software then driving without a license, but the analogy of buying car is not that close IMO. I've driven without insurance & I've even driven without a drivers license, but I was not in denial about it being illegal. We don't own software, only a strict license to use it.
Right now, like many of us, I have over $10,000 of software licensed to me... that I actually spent over $8,000.00 on, (plus I got a few good deals for license transfers like Illustrator & Casmate)but I'll admit that I used copied versions of most of that software for a short time before I bought it.
I would agree to "not worry" if you want to use software on a second hand computer... I just think some of the excuses of why folks think it's not a violation of the end user licensing agreement are pretty unconvincing to me.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Like my grand daddy used to say, "posession is nine-tenths of the law."
I think the conversation has been lost in a quagmire of "what if's."
The software/fonts were legally purchased, the computer and it's contents were knowlingly sold.
One person, no more, is using the computer and it's contents. Purely change of ownership.
You can always contact them and ask what you need to do....but I see no moral reason why you should feel guilty about using what you purchased.
It's not like the guy gave you the computer and said, "I'm keeping the original software, but I put copies of it on the computer for you as a bonus." He no longer has it right?
Go on and live my man. I'd be more concerned about how you would react when someone cuts you off in traffic.
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Couple of points....
The Adobe copyright agreement mentions the "legal transfer", which includes the transfer of the software and serial numbers as well. Based on that, as long as you have registered copies of the software which include the fonts, you're legal. It's a valid transfer of legal copies.
The dicey part is where the computers, fonts, etc are not a direct transfer from the original purchaser of the software, but the sherrifs who siezed the materials from the bankruptcy proceedings.
I'm no legal expert, but I'm assuming the seizure would constitue a legal accquisition and would, at this point, constitute a "transfer" of the rights and ownership to use the software to the sherrif's department. Effectively, their decision to pass the same materials to the auctioneer is essentially creating a third party seller. Although it was bought at an auction, it was sold as sheriff department property, or property of those who instituted the siezure proceedings...the bankruptcy courts.
Again, the passing of usage rights for any of the fonts included with the auctioned software would be legal based on the rights of possesion of transfer.
If it were me, I would check the systems for software leaglly downloaded from the internet and stored on the hard drive. If found, they should be backed up and the software seller can be contacted as needed. I would then format the hard drives, reinstall the software included with them, and consider it a legal transfer of the copyrighted materials. Anything lost due to the lack of registered software would also insure that no pirated materials would remain on the computers.
My 2 bits... Rapid
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
"What if" the kind of people getting their computers confiscated by the Sherrif may also be the kind of people that had never legally owned them in the first place? awww, what a quagmire... since others "see no moral reason why you should feel guilty "... why should you?
why "get lost in a quagmire of what if's" when you can eliminate that doubt by simply assuming that "the software/fonts were legally purchased, the computer and it's contents were knowlingly sold, & One person, no more, is using the computer and it's contents"
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Doug,
William stated the following:
quote:They come with the operating system discs,license sticker on side of each computer, and all the software, books, disks, etc.
I think it's right to assume that since the computers came with original disks, software, books, etc as he has implied, that one could surmise they were legally purchased. If it was a case where the computers contained software and fonts with no supporting evidence of a legal purchase, then the materials legitimacy could be suspect.
Now here's a "what if" you might appreciate:
Since you state the computers were confiscated by the local sheriff as a result of the bankruptcy procedure, doesn't it stand to reason that the onus lies with the sheriff to assure the legitimacy of the computers contents prior to allowing transfer of ownership to a third party?
Let's say it was an office desk instead of a computer which they had confiscated. Don't you think they would open the drawers to ensure they didn't contain a loaded handgun, valuables, or even a cache of illicit drugs before they allowed the desk to be passed on to another party? Imagine the embarrassment when the headline reads, "County sheriff sells desk full of Cocaine to college student."
As an intermidiary agency assigned with court approved powers to take possession of the computers, it seems to me they bear part of the responsibility to ensure they are not passing along stolen property.
You say,
quote:but I'll admit that I used copied versions of most of that software for a short time before I bought it.
I would agree to "not worry" if you want to use software on a second hand computer
And I would say that we all have, or do. It sounds like William is making an attempt to do what's right....but tracking down the legitimacy of hundreds of fonts and installed software is very time consuming....perhaps to the point of costing him more in lost productivity than the purchase was worth.
My gut reaction is that if he has a majority of materials (as he states he does) to back up the notion that it appears as though the contents of the computer must have been purchased legitimately by the now defunct company....I personally see no reason to invest huge amounts of time running down every piece of software on the computer.
If that doesn't settle it for him, he can always delete it all and have a completely clear conscience.
At some point, it does become a quagmire of "what if's."
Would you alert a cashier if you discovered she gave you $5 change you weren't deserving of? Would you return it? Yes, I'm sure most of us would.
Now, say you found a 5 dollar bill on the sidewalk....would you diligently enter every store on the block and ask if someone lost the 5 dollar bill in search of the legitimate owner? Would you drive it down to the police department and turn it in to lost and found? Or would you stick it into your pocket?
At some point, the search becomes an exhaustive quagmire of futility.
Posted by Gene Golden (Member # 3934) on :
Todd, The $5 you just found on the ground was marked money - part of a sting operation. By picking it up, you've just implicated yourself... Now if you PROVE that you just received it in a stack of bills wrapped by the bank instead, is it any more legal? I know, strange, incorrect analogy. BUT, we have gone off on quite a few tangents here.
I would love to hear a definitive answer to William's original question BY A LAWYER. I doubt we'll get it, but it would be nice. It's been interesting to see where this thread has gone and the many ways people justify their decisions.
Anyway, William, USE IT!
Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
I would use the fonts. I wouldn't keep $$ or a wallet that I found tho. Love...Jill
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
If I found a wallet I would return it...unless it was Gene's, then I might buy a few fonts with the dough. heherheherheher...
Posted by Gene Golden (Member # 3934) on :
Rick, I see you found a sense of humor. Should you use it or try to give it back?
No, really it's been a great discussion so far. We need to know from a higher source on this particular case. No more guessing.
Mike Jackson, what do you think? (So much for a higher source)
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Gene, good one....hehehe....
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
I think you have to have a sense of humour here...and yes I should use it. As you can see, everybody else gets too, especially on the topic....
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
I liked Gary's answer too . . about the wallet.
And Doug's answer too, because yeh, what's goin' on with this equipment . . .but I reckon that 'puter ain't hot if the Sheriff sold it to ya . . .
I'm also with who ever said call Adobe.
Still, here's another illustration, more like Mr. William's actual situation than Gary's cut & dried "wallet" illustration:
Don't you think this is more like buyin' a car full of CD's with copy righted music on them that the vehicle owner made off their previously purchased cassettes & albums??
In that case, I might call the car dealer and ask, "Did the previous owner get everything they wanted out of the car?"
I also agree that it was irresponsible of the computer owner AND the Sheriff's Dept. to not delete EVERTHING off the computer, just as they would have cleaned out a vehicle.
Posted by Gene Golden (Member # 3934) on :
Okay Sheila, So he deletes everything off the hard drive. Now he still owns the Windows XP disc, the Quickbooks disc and the Adobe fonts disc. Can he install them into his computer?
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
Gene, if he has the seriel number... yeah he can install it. Will it install? Yes! will it work? yes! Does that mean he is the licensed owner? To me that is the original question & your hypothetical version of the question would require 3 answers... one from M$, one from Intuit, & one from Adobe. My experience with Adobe graphics software (not fonts) would tell me the answer from them is no.
Todd, I wasn't willing to bump this up yesterday to further hypothesize on this quandary... but since it's been bumped...
quote:Now here's a "what if" you might appreciate:
Since you state the computers were confiscated by the local sheriff as a result of the bankruptcy procedure, doesn't it stand to reason that the onus lies with the sheriff to assure the legitimacy of the computers contents prior to allowing transfer of ownership to a third party?
Let's say it was an office desk instead of a computer which they had confiscated. Don't you think they would open the drawers to ensure they didn't contain a loaded handgun
Let's go a little less extreme then a handgun & say there is a fishing license in there... nobody is going to shoot themselves with it... it's not illegal to possess another persons fishing license... so the sgerrif leaves it in the desk & you buy it at the auction. Now go out & show it to the game warden after a good days haul of fish & tell him all your above logic about transfer of licensing to you being the sherrifs responsibility & let me know what he says.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Doug,
Apples and oranges (or fish and shrimp).
At first, I thought, "hmmmm, Doug has made an argument that cannot be countered. Checkmate."
But after thinking about this, I believe that the argument has some flaws, thus making it a comparison between two dissimilar scenarios.
I would argue that in the case of the fishing licence, the person is using the license to catch fish that without the license is considered property of the state. The license allows you to in effect purchase fish if you're lucky enough to catch them. Fish being a state owned resource.
This is much different than the transfer of one working license from one owner to another. The software has been purchased, it has no expiration date as a fishing license does, and it is still ONLY being used by one person. It has not been copied and shared with all your neighbors.
The software company does not own the creations produced by their software....whereas the state not only has sold the license to have the priviledge of performing the act of fishing (which corresponds to the act of using the software) but they also own the result of the act of fishing (the fish). The software company can never make a claim to own the result of your using their software.
So your analogy doesn't totally work here. But I do get your point....and it is a good one....but I still believe that it is a product purchased and if it is a legitimately licensed product it should be permissable to transfer it from one person's ownership to another's....so long as there is still only a single user using it.
Don't forget that somewhere at the beginning of this post someone said that their is a provision for transfer of ownership.....
And morally, there should be an outlet for transfer of ownership with full rights maintained by the new owner.
The defense rests.
[ September 21, 2004, 07:25 PM: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
You buy a business, lets say a small storefront operation. You buy the building and it's contents. As you go throught the inventory, you find "questionable stock (bootleg items, possibly stolen goods, etc.)
The computer is much the same. You are entiled to use the place and inventory, but it basicly comes down to your conscience. If you use/sell the bootleg or stolen stuff, you run the risk of getting caught.
Remember, this is an ethical questin Bill has asked and responses will vary with each of us since our own levels of honesty, business practices and down right greed will play out in each of us.
Personally, anything that raises these questions (and usually the hairs on the back of my neck) usually result in my not involving myself in them, which is why I would do as I mentioned earlier...reformat the drives and ONLY install registered software with proper serial numbers.
Anything else probably isn't worth the ulcers. Rapid
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Ray, you make good points here....but the gist of Bill's post leads me to believe that he has owner's manuals, original disks, etc which one would presume an equation of legally installed software.
Now if the computer came with only software installed and no form of backup materials....then I would be more apt to be suspicious of the software's legitimacy.
In the end, he can always contact the manufacturer's of every installed program and verify this....but I personally wouldn't feel it is necessary to do that....based on the description of the backup materials he listed.
I would do it with software that I would intend on upgrading....fonts, nope.
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
. . . .well...what if the afore mentioned CD's analogy included all the little covers with the lyrics??
I'm just askin' . . . . Posted by Bob Stephens (Member # 858) on :
I personally like oranges but every now and then a customer will give me apples? My dilemma, do I eat the apples because they were given to me or do they really belong to the tin man in the wizard of oz?
I now can't sleep over this quagmire so should I see a doctor about it or sue Microsoft and Adobe? It’s not always black and white. Guilt is a terrible thing to waste. You will be dead sooner than you think. Is there an afterlife or is this all you're going to get.
What if all the fonts have bogus names and aren't the original font foundry typefaces? Lets face it, we're all facked in the end.
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Okay...
Corel is the program you find installed. It installs fonts by default. There are still thousands of fonts that can be installed, all a part of the legally accquired discs.
Heck, the Windows operating system includes fonts. Many others do as well.
Unless you have the discs, you can't reload them once the systems have been wiped. That's the only way to guarantee there's nothing being used that violates copyrights.
Rapid
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
I believe the nature of an "ethics question" (to quote part of the topic of this thread)is exactly as Ray has stated & subject to varied opinion based on varied points of view. (read: No right answer)
The possibility of a legal question to be debated tends to compete for our attention though. I believe the nature of a legal question boils down to an ethics question anyway when considered from a hypothetical viewpoint that is not bound in time & space to the legal statute or precedent existing in the jurisdiction where & when this quagmire began.
The beauty of our legal system is it's kinetic nature, & it's reflection of the democratic process by which ethical questions are debated, ruled upon, & subsequently over-ruled on occassion. The legal question may have one right answer, though it may not be "right" always, or everywhere.
It's no secret that I like to write, but often I have to work, so some of my earlier replies intended to hint at my rationalization for my opinions without spelling them out. For the sake of adding clarity to my earlier post questioning the character of the bankrupt former owner... or questioning the validity of recurring assumptions about "a single user" using the software... consider this hypothetical scenario:
I buy a laptop computer, & some software... learn a trade, open a business, lease some more computers & equipment, get bank loans, grow my business, get bored, stop working, default on loans, go bankrupt, then I move to Maui with my laptop & back-up copies of my software that I owned before opening the business.
William gets my old desktop computers with MY software (& CD's) that never got dealt with. (I got bored remember... never went back in the office)
Too far fetched ?
OK... I lend my junkie cousin a computer w/ software, CD's & manuals to help him rise up from his life of crime... he splits, runs a con, sets up a company, goes bankrupt... William gets my computer... meanwhile I'm still using (& upgrading) my software, never needing the manual or the old Version 1 CD's.
ethically, I completely agree that IF we can assume nobody else is using the software, it has been bought & paid for & can be used in good conscience... but I believe that assumption can not be made. You can wish & you can hope... but the leap of faith required to conclude that the original owner is not using the software is, IMHO, a suspension of ethics in favor of convenience.
CHECK! Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Wow!
Ok, let's say while I was sleeping, an alien spacecraft from mars hovers over my house and fires a duplication beam into my computer from within the belly of it's armored hulk.
The duplication beam not only copies the software, but the registration numbers as well while at the same time removing mine...the two little one-eyed, green filtchers grin broadly, exposing dagger-like teeth and serpentine tongues.
Next, they conduct a mind meld on me, convincing me that the software on my computer is bootlegged. The guilt is so overwhelming that I turn myself in to the authorities, who refer the case to the prosecuting attorney.
Incensed at my disregard for the rights of the software manufacturers, I am successfully prosecuted and sentenced to 10 years in maximum security prison, bunking with with Felix Rumpranger - a triple X chromosome convicted serial rapist of gigilos along California's Gold Coast. He resembles sasquatch and has removable dentures.
My life is ruined, and I'll never be able to sit on hard chairs again...meanwhile, Adobe feels justice has been done and continues working on bug laden software, slowly introducing new versions of Illustrator with features that CorelDraw has had for years.
Now this COULD happen,but common sense tells me otherwise. Sorry Doug, I just couldn't help but cross the line from macabre speculation to full-blown satire....
Kind of funny that Bill has jumped out of this one 30 posts ago isn't it?
I Stand by my theory that if the computer was corporate owned, and has all the manuals, original cd's, boxes and software that the chances are 90+% that there is no problems.
If Bill were to erase all the software that he feels could be legitimate, because a lingering subtle doubt gives him pause...then he probably took a screwing for the price he paid for the computer...as you can purchase a decent computer with new technology for as little as $400.
The fonts I don't question, because you can legally obtain versions of just about any font on the web for free...
I'd be curious and surprised to read of an instance where a private individual was successfully prosecuted by a software manufacturer for using it's programs on a computer aquired at a corporate bankruptcy auction. I'm not saying it hasn't happened...but it would be fun to research.
I'm worn out on this one...I'm gonna pack it in (the crowd explodes in applause)
[ September 22, 2004, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]
Posted by Gene Golden (Member # 3934) on :
Todd, You've GOT to lay off the caffeine! Go, sit down, and enjoy some of your old Napster MP3's.
Posted by Rovelle W. Gratz (Member # 4404) on :
I have a headache.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
LOL....Gene! AAARRGH matey's....excuse me whilst I pull my boot up onto me laig!
Couldn't help but drive this one out of the park...
In the infamous words of OP....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
[ September 23, 2004, 08:22 PM: Message edited by: Barb. Shortreed ]
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Todd,
quote: I Stand by my theory that if the computer was corporate owned, and has all the manuals, original cd's, boxes and software that the chances are 90+% that there is no problems.
Couple of factors to consider...
It may have been corporate owned, but that does not in any way rule out that the individual users (employees) did not have illegal or illicit materials on them.
90% sure is still 10% unsure.
Rapid
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
If the ethical thing to do is to track down every one of the software titles including each of the hundreds of fonts; doesn't it also stand to reason that an ethical society, believing in the "rule of law" should ensure Bill does the right thing, thereby protecting the sanctity of all our rights - by turning him in to the local authorities?
I mean, c'mon...after all...if you saw a kid stick a candy bar in his pocket, wouldn't you feel compelled to tell the store manager?
Or how about turning yourself in when you're driving home and you know you are .000001 over the legal alchohol limit?
And you probably turn yourself in when you toss a cigarette butt onto the pavement in violation of the local littering code?
Ok, I'm being stupid here...but the point is that I think Bill is smart enough to figure out what reasonable extent he needs to pursue legitimacy in regards to the contents of his purchase. Now, let's be really honest....what have YOU got on your computer, even if ever-so-insignificant that maybe doesn't belong there?
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
IMO ethics has nothing to do with getting or being "turned in" if yourethics are not compromised... there's NO ethical question... IF they are, then yer busted already anyway where it matters most!
..& just so nobody thinks I'm trying to take the moral high ground here... I never suggested "tracking down the legitimacy of hundreds of fonts and installed software"
...BUT if (when) I decided NOT TO... it would be more because, in an example like Williams, I percieve that the violation, if any, just may rank down there with the local littering code and NOT because I conveniently convince myself beyond all doubt that there is still only a single user using it.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
Amen Brother! Taking the moral high ground is nothing to be ashamed about though....
I think it's interesting (and I do it too) though how we as humans can direct our focus on a certain topic with moral clarity, yet there are so many other traits where we fall short of the ideal.
Try as I may,I can't live a perfect life, so I guess it's the best Gift of all that I'm saved by grace and nothing that I do myself - - If I relied on my own actions in totality, I'd be struck by lightening several times over.
I'm not sure there is much difference between using the stuff because you don't think you'll get caught, or convincing yourself that it is legit without exhaustively checking it out for sure...in either case, there is a certain measure of uncertainty and hopefully a tinge of guilt that accompanies the justification.
Now we know why all presidents who enter the presidency with dark hair, end up with solid white hair within their first term.....if we can debate a topic like this for days on end, then imagine the stress a president goes through trying to keep 295 million US residents happy - -all of whom has a different opinion!
Nations will not fall nor rise over Bill's 2nd hand computer....but this has been an interesting topic....and fun to see where everybody's personal line gets drawn in the sand.
[ September 23, 2004, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: Todd Gill ]
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
Todd, (I refer to your first paragraph on the post you made just before the one above . . . .)
don't forget, the local authorities sold the thing in the first place.
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