i just came back from one of my clients who just opened a business. he called me as i did his marquee and a door. he needed the license # put on the door, so since i did the other work for him i cut the 1.5" letters and took them up and applied them N/C. i noticed as i drove up a new 3 FOOT X 15 FOOT white banner installed up on the facia. i asked him where he got it....he tells me this guy drives in the other day, told him he could do this size banner for now get this...$160.00!!!!!! THATS $3.56 A SQ.FT. banner cost is $45.00, vinyl& tape used is minimum $40, time is at least 1 hour at $50....install shoulda been minimum of $35....so the way i figure it he pocketed A WOPPIN $35.00!!!!!!!! on top on that its 20 feet in the air where its mounted...AND THIS IDIOT DID THAT FOR FREE!!!! i quoted him on a 2 x 10 FOR $160!!!!!AND NO INSTALL! so i lost that sale.....now the real kicker..the guy didnt write a reciept, leave a card or give tell the cleint his name!!!!!! REALL GOOD BUSINESS PRATICE !!!!!!! now you see why i posted the title the way i did.......and i hope he enjoyed workin for less then MINIMUM WAGE....THE IDIOT!!!!!
[ September 13, 2004, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by Dave Hunt (Member # 4637) on :
Sounds like the norm around here, OP. Seems lately everytime I turn around someone new is buying a plotter and selling magnetic sign at 50 bucks a set. Look like sh*t....but most people around here just don't seem to care.
I feel your pain OP. Believe me, I feel your pain.
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
Damn Joe, find this guy!
At that price, we could all sub out our work to him and spend our days raking in the dough & drinking margaritas.
As for the no receipt, no business card left...... I think the IRS might be very interested in his new enterprise.
Posted by William DeBekker (Member # 3848) on :
Thats the way here. 3.50 a sq ft One Color $4 a ft for 2 color. OP try ready blanks 3x15 10oz $22 each and $4 shipping. I just keep 2 of all the common blanks in stock. Quick and easy money Cash and Carry NO INSTALLS. If you cant make a 1 color banner in 30 minutes you better get some new Geritol with the booster in. Or Try Some MEAT in your Diet Posted by Joey Madden (Member # 1192) on :
I truly believe that when your reputation and business practices have been established, that the one and only headache comes from counting your cash at the end of the day and not worrying about someone else who gives out cheap prices. Evidently anyone can do a banner so move on to the next phase and stop worrying about the next guy Posted by Pete Sharkins (Member # 4525) on :
Banners suck. They're similar to lettering a giant, live catfish.
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Joey for PRESIDENT!!!!!
Rapid
Posted by Michael Berry (Member # 2604) on :
"i just came back from one of my clients who just opened a business. he called me as i did his marquee and a door. he needed the license # put on the door, so since i did the other work for him i cut the 1.5" letters and took them up and applied them N/C."
Any your babbling about " IDIOTS, VINLY CUTTER, AND NO PROFIT... Sorry OP, don't feel bad for you at all, sure does sound like your doing the same thing... Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Joe..No sense beating yourself up over the lowballers. You are getting up to my age. Ya could have a heart attack getting worked up about them!!!
I just keep my prices up and don't sweat the competition. If I get the job I make good money. If I don't get the job then someone is working for a profit margin that I refuse to think about. And I get to take a day off. It's called semi-retirement.
Hell... if I have nothing to do, the lawn gets cut or something might even get done around the house.
Don't get so worked up buddy! The lowballers will always be around but they will have different names because they can't stay in business.
Posted by Mark Sheflo (Member # 3608) on :
Would this be a "vinyl snapper" ????
Posted by Harris Kohen (Member # 2139) on :
A snapper head
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
This topic keeps coming up again and again. Just my 2 cents, but I know Mike Sheehan at Classic Signs in Pensacola is doing big business persuing new development signage.
Appy is another good example of a sign maker that is making a good living and enjoys a nice lifestyle. What are these guys doing that others are not?
I once heard a very successful guy on tv. The reporter asked him what he would do if he lost everything. Without hesitation, he answered that he would seek a job in a 5 Star Hotel.
He went on to point out that one of the secrets of success is meeting and learning from those that have or are doing whatever it is you want to do. Instead of bitching and complaining, it's time to stop doing the same old things that keep generating the same old results.
There are a number of people reading this BB that are making good incomes. Find a mentor, ask for advice and then do what they tell you. If you are really tired of always being sick and tired, it's time for a checkup from the neck up. Myself included!
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
quote: $45.00, vinyl& tape used is minimum $40, time is at least 1 hour at $50....install shoulda been minimum of $35....so the way i figure it he pocketed A WOPPIN $35.00!!!!!!!!
$45 $40 $50 +$35 ______________ $170
Actually, he lost $10 on the deal.... Rapid
Posted by Mark Sheflo (Member # 3608) on :
Sorry Joe, but not knowing exactly what is there I can't be sure about this, an neither can your customer, but if they went on the cheap...
3' x 15' banner $45.00---------$29 13oz H&G banner
vinyl& tape used is minimum $40-----GMI 3mil & tape $25
time is at least 1 hour at $50-----:30 to :60 @ $42.50
install, second story...not on your life without a lift......but I'll use your number...$35
Total $131.50......not that I would sell it for that, nor should anyone, but it is possible if you don't mark up materials and are willing to work for nothing....
>>>> Edited to match Joe's description below <<<<
Mark
[ September 14, 2004, 03:40 AM: Message edited by: Mark Sheflo ]
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
MB....you need to read the whole thing...go back to where it said 1.5" NUMBERS...and it was 5 numbers...less then a foot long...also.."I DID HIS MARQUEE AND HIS DOOR LETTERING!!! he forgot to have me do them when i did the door! SHEEES....pay atten-shun. and i did say N/C, but they offered a massage($40$ VALUE) and i took it....iam nowhere doin the same thing.....i gave him a receipt, he has my business cards in his lobby, and one of his associates needs a pair of magnetics(which he told me about then)......i do well with people, you should try bein nice......hehehe mark it wasnt a poly banner, it was a good 10-12oz with gromets....oh and thank you DOCTOR PHIL..for you words of wisdom....quit bitchin and do somethine about it.... ray i didnt add in the $35 for install.....since he didnt either....heheheh
[ September 14, 2004, 12:54 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
LOL W.D. an' Pete!!!
But Opie, I think I kind'a resemble your remark . . .
I bought a plotter and I'm not usin' it!! What an idiot!!! Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
if da fo ****s....hahahahahaha....and if you do work at that price....shame on you....
Posted by Steve Shortreed (Member # 436) on :
Sorry you found so little value in my comments Joe. My comments were not directed at you personally. Are you saying you have no control over your business or income? Are some people just born successful and/or lucky? If that is true, why even bother looking for new solutions?
But what do I know. I can't even make a sign. I'm stuck in this hot TV studio.
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
OP.
Neither of also included the shipping of the banner, set up time on the computer, and a resonable profit margin...as well as the person who did the banner. Is he snapper? Yup. The difference is the lines aren't made with chaulk, but a blade.
Steve does make an excellent point, much of which I've applied to my way of thinking and working since finding Letterville last spring. With all the information here, and the hands on experience gained at live meets, I've moved into doing higher end work and let the lowballers have all the customers who are unable or unwilling to spend the proper amount on signage. I don't wish any of them ill since they are trying to make a buck, no different than myself, but unless they get a wake up call, they most likely will wind up doing signs and wondering why they aren't gaining anything from it.
In all truth, when I first started out, I had no idea what the value of what I was producing really was. I wish a Letterhead had called me back then and let me know. I'd have been a lot better off...then, and now.
Don't get mad, get them on an even playing field. Give them a call. You've got nothing to lose but a few minutes on the phone...or more customers to someone who is uninformed.
Best of luck this week with Ivan. I'll be keeping you in mind. Rapid
Posted by William Bass (Member # 4929) on :
My dad always says, "You don't lose money on a job you don't do."
IMHO, tho, it is better not to call people idiots.
[ September 14, 2004, 07:58 AM: Message edited by: William Bass ]
Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
Theres always gonna be lowballers out there Joe. The ones here bought a cutter, some bootleg software, and dont pay taxes. They diddle around and make a few coro signs, etc. At the end of the year, they check their profits, if they even keep books, and sell the cutter and software to somebody else. They're not too professional about the way they do business, so they end up not doing business. Even in this little town, Ive got five of them now. I aint gonna worry about them.
Posted by Cam Bortz (Member # 55) on :
Has it ever occured to OP that somewhere, someone is fuming over the idiot that sells coroplast ballfield signs for $30?
Sorry, I couldn't resist. I'll be on vacation for two weeks; apparently I'm one of those "lucky" people who charge enough to make a decent living in this business.
Posted by Jane Diaz (Member # 595) on :
I love William Bass's Dad's quote...."You don't lose money on a job you don't get". That will probably show up on a plaque in our shop somewhere. William, what is his name, so I can quote him? It is infuriating to have the lowballers underbid you, but another quote that I DO have on my wall is "We have no quarrel with those who work for less. They know what they are worth."
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
GREETINGS FROM SUNNY MICHIGAN!!!
OK, I've watched this thread for a couple days, and I've got to comment here:
Steve, Great advice! Even if some did'nt appreciate it. I think too many times our personal lives keep us from achieving what we want business-wise. Maybe our CC bills are too high or our mortgage is killing us. KEEP IT SIMPLE!
Cam, Mike, I agree. But, I too tend to throw out a bone from time to time. There's nothing wrong with that, but are we training our clients to expect freebees? And then, when we want to charge a fair price, we are not viewed as a serious sign artist. That is my fault if that happens. I trained them. I trained them to buy low regardless of loyalty or quality.
When we start out, we will usually lowball or bid below the crowd so we can "get our name out there." The day comes when we have to cover our expenses, and then some. After all, nobody is going to hand me a pension check when I get to the point I can no longer work. My favorite quote, (besides Jane's and William's) is "I can stay home and starve....no need to work and starve" Or, "I refuse to compete with those who are willing to work for free"
OP: You may need to review your pricing. To heck with that guy. Most the time when you have quoted prices on the BB, I think "How does he make a living?" I have found people expect to pay more when you give them more. I mean a credable appearance, a shop truck that is always clean, and a presentation that is second to none. Clients will go for a better presentation even if the price is higher. Anybody who won't pay your reasonable prices, they can call the other guys. Soon, people will call you because you will do an awesome job, not because you are the cheapest guy around. Hang in there Joe! Posted by Michel Thibodeau (Member # 310) on :
OP
Don't worry about it too much i some times make house Number for $20.00 to $200.00 If the client went's a vinyl number on a PVC it's $20.00 but if he would like some with airbrushing or sandblasted HDU with gold leaf no problem it's $200.00 I've got guys here that's doing Refletive house number on plastique for less then $10.00 if the whent to work for free go for it but i don't fall in there games no more I'm a Pro sign maker not some fool that's going to work for free I'm the only one here that does real gold leaf i don't use sign gold in my shop i do charge for it i do what Dave does if i don't have the job find some stuff to do aroud the house. Or i will go work at wall mart i don't care no more i don't work for free and i still think my price are still to low. it's not the tools that makes us it's us that makes the tools.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
cam those ballfield signs are $35!!! for plain and $60 for logo/artwork....and another sign shop is doin em this fall. so they must be doin em for less then i charge em....hehehehehe. and its a quantity deal, not 1 or 2 signs. doctor phil, i can rag on you, cant i? also i did quote this client on a 2' x 10' sign, not installed on .040 alum. $160.00. so iam not with out reason for what iam sayin here....bass...you dad was right, and also why do a job...AND NOT MAKE ANY MONEY? thats what this idiot did. rick, as for prices here, iam in one of the lowest per capita INCOME areas in the U.S. you cant get prices here you get where you are, wish i could. and the more people low ball, to get a job, the less people expect to pay the next time they need a sign, there in lies the problem.
[ September 14, 2004, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
I know it's a dangerous thing, but I'm going to throw this out anyway:
The only person I can change is me. I have no control over anyone else. If I dislike what someone else does, there is nothing I can do about it but change my attitude towards them. If I fret over what other folks do, they are controling my life instead of me.
We have the same folks here that OP has where he lives...it's just a fact of life (so, get over it). I don't have to live that way - I choose not to. And I know folks who live around OP that are getting top dollar for signs in a "depressed low income area". How do they do that?
Posted by Rovelle W. Gratz (Member # 4404) on :
OP, I hope you don't have any of your walls up yet.
Take care and head North or somewhere out of the way of the Evil Ivan.
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
OP .. a gold mine is fixin to land in your lap.. Get ready to go out with some flyers or b cards and put them every where, PPl are goona cry for a new sign pretty soon.
Be ready bro.. WE willl get a share of it.. I can't wait .
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
ray, old standby phrases are great, yes, i agree with all that you say. i was just putiin this out there.....not complaining, bitchin or feelin sorry for me....just a touch of whats really going on and i see iam not alone, thats the whole jist of this post. there are some here doing great and getting good prices...but...they been at it 10-15 years or have been an esablished business for a long time. i moved here in 98, so i dont have the the 18 year client base i left in sarasota. i do have some good clients, and its growing more all the time.
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Joe,
You have been offered some great advice and insight here from some great sign craftsmen.
If you refuse to "hear" it then you are no longer the " victim" but rather the problem.
Posted by Gary Hove (Member # 4970) on :
I also do commercial painting as well as signs and there are lowballers in every line of trade. Do your thing and let them do their's. I have had the same gripe for years, but never let my price or quality change to match those willing to cut their own throat to get the job. A job well done is a job well done. If they can supply the same craftmanship for a lower price then great for the client, but in my experience I have never seen it. Therefor, buyer be ware.
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
OK...I'll take the bait.
It's not the local economy then (because some are highly successful in a depressed area) but rather it is the length of time a person has been in business? How many years into having a business does it go from struggling to being "comfortable"? What changes that produces that transformation?
I'm not trying to argue, I'm just trying to sort out the excuses.
[ September 14, 2004, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: Raymond Chapman ]
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
quote: How many years into having a business does it go from struggling to being "comfortable"? What changes that produces that transformation?
I think it happens when "old standby phrases" youhalf-heartedly "agree" with become new words of wisdom to live by! Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Raymond..I don't think there are a specific number of years involved. At least there weren't for me.
I believe I felt comfortable when I was making more doing lettering on the side than I was doing body work full time!!!!!!!!!!!
At that point I closed the body shop and went into semi-retirement doing signs and lettering. Posted by Donna in BC (Member # 130) on :
The number of years I've been in biz has nothing to do with the current income I'm making now. I made way more before Cody was born because I hussled. Made it my priority.
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
i love arm chair quarterbacks....you can take all that "good advice", and print it and hang it on the walls....unless your walkin in my shoes....you live in a different world....thats all i gota say. you want to argue symantics, go ahead, you want to sound like the sage, go ahead, but it dont change WHAT IS!! and thats all i was sayin now get off ME........you all want to expound explainations for MY BEING THE PROBLEM so be it, thank you. the guy is still an idiot with a vinyl cutter.....and thats what i was sayin...nothin to do with MY WORK ETHIC OR CAPABILITY!!!! damn you guys can go of tangent so easy. oh and bob...."hear this".....hahahahahahaha
[ September 15, 2004, 02:11 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
I agree that he is a lowballin' idiot...one of millions.....so what...are you worried about him taking your dimensional signage, or gold leafing or hand lettering or good designs away? Those are aquired skills that take time, anyone can make a banner....
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
your 1st sentance say what the whole thing is about....thats it....and no, he cant do what i do.
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
OP, I think I'm going to have to agree with you...there are low-ballin' folks out there.
I guess I misunderstood your original post. I thought you were complaining about the low-ballers, when evidently you were just letting us know that they were out there.
[ September 15, 2004, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: Raymond Chapman ]
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Yes Joe, thanks for the "heads up" I'll keep my eyes peeled for em too.
Posted by jerry jaran (Member # 524) on :
Hi, Last week I tried to get an actual bum who paints signs a few times a year here to get a business lic. The county and city did'nt bother having him get one. He's a sloppy lowballer. So, I'm putting an ad in the Advertiser that says:
SA VE MONY ha ve a bum do your sihn
MAKE MONEY have Able signs do your sign
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
enough people confuse making money with saving money... I hope they don't think you're the bum
Posted by John Largent (Member # 4606) on :
Don't wanna appear as a Smartass, but coming from an old Painter that quit when I had to compete with low balling vinyl cutters on every corner, I have to say;
"What goes around, comes around!"
There is no such thing as a Quality Vinyl Sign . . .
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
This may be a but off the original subject, but, I beg to differ with you John. Go to some of the websites of Letterheads who do vinyl or both. There is quality! For example, check ot Bob Rochon's pages
It's not just the guys that will do a simple banner for cheap.....I just bid on some welcome signs for our city. The other shop in my little town which has been in business since 1957 priced a 6' x 8', 2" thick sandblasted wood, three colors, installed using 6"x6" posts for $3000. My bid using routed signfoam was considerably higher. If I'm going to go broke I'll do it sitting on my couch drinking a cold one, not doing big jobs for nothing Posted by Sheila Ferrell (Member # 3741) on :
John, mabey you could say there's no such thing as a quality "economy-grade vinyl" sign, LOL
I have a good many hi-end, quality signs out there, for example: hand-painted pictorials on automotive finishes and premium grade vinyl copy that still look good bro., even after 7 years. I know that qualifies as quality.
To reduce glare on your comment, consider editing or ammending . . . :x
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
quote:Don't wanna appear as a Smartass, but...
There is no such thing as a Quality Vinyl Sign . . .
I'd be more worried about appearing as a dumbass with a comment like that around here, but since you used to paint... well where is that groveling "we're not worthy" graemlin when ya need it Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Secret Sign Agent DrCAS reporting....
This just in... Low-balling idiot with vinyl cutter spotted in the vicinity of Niagara Falls Blvd and Military Rd... Considered dangerous...
Last seen driving white 1977 Plymouth Volare wagon, Florida plates ICU-812...
Stay tuned for further developments...
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
John..With all the complaints that we hear in recent times about the quality of lettering enamels..I definitely find your comment about vinyl signs to be kinda ill-researched.
I have many many vinyl jobs out there that are 10 years old and still look fine. And guess what??? Some of the layouts are pretty good too!
Maybe not as pretty as your faded paint layouts but still pretty good.
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
I've seen a lot of nice signs done with vinyl.
I think the problem is, other than the spray-can, misspelled hunk of cardboard sign for the farm market, most of the ugly ones are vinyl, not paint.
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
Actually John, the more I think about it the more offended I am becoming. I have been in business since 1982, and have used vinyl as well as paint.
Maybe the vinyl guys in your area are inferior, but I am here to tell you that design is the first priority. i have seen many many poorly designed PAINTED signs, and some awesome vinyl work. Perhaps you should rethink your opinion and edit your reply.
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
I think Johns entitled to his opinion. Just like the low-balling idiot, it has nothing to do with me.
I think if I had the chance to work or design handpainted signs only I would, and I think most if not all of us would, if we could make a living at it.
My personal opinion is a vinyl sign can be just as attractive as most well crafted painted signs...I prefer a nicely crafted handpainted sign.
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Oh geez rick why did you link MY website haha, thats some rea;;y old stuff there
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
Not the point, Bob. Nice mixture of edge, vinyl, and paint. Helping people, (John), understand, not paint or vinyl......IT'S DESIGN!
[ September 15, 2004, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: Rick Beisiegel ]
Posted by John Stagner (Member # 4091) on :
Gotta weigh in - this is just too good. I can't keep a strong opinion bottled up inside me... John, I am in complete agreement with Rick and others, on the subject of paint vs. vinyl, and here's why: In much the same way that the success of a business can't be attributed to only locale or the nature of the business itself, but rather to the individual(s) that operate it and what they do to make it successful - a sign's quality doesn't hang entirely on the choice of materials used. How many other factors go into your definition of "Quality"? Layout/design? Color Combinations? Lettering style? Readability? Negative/Positive Space? Proper amount of copy? Effectiveness? Overall appeal? If the definition of quality is so narrow, then think about the painted signs on rural roads that say, "Eggs 4 Sale" or "Fresh Produce". We've all seen them. They used paint, didn't they? Yeah, seems like it was black paint on that piece of scrap plywood from the barn. 'Nuff said. Sorry to reduce it to the ridiculous, but your comment was a bit offensive.
Moving on to another topic in this thread...
Perhaps equally offensive to some, is the fact that our shop owns a lot of technology, no enamels or brushes, only been in business since 2002, and I have the nerve to call myself a signmaker. Who cares that we are in what many consider an "economically depressed area"? Who cares about the cheap cutters on every corner? If it gets too bad here, maybe I'll pack up and move to a bigger market like, say, Pensacola and do the same thing we did here. Create Demand. Diversify. Do good work. Shake every last hand in town. Hand out of all the business cards you have, then have more made and move on to the next town. Hire good help. Ignore the negative. Ignore limits, break barriers and believe in yourself. Practice 'Coopetition', not competition. Outwit, Outplay, and Outlast. You aren't limited by the economy, the business you're in, or anybody with $5,000 to spend, with the idea they'll make a killing doing signs. Limits are self-imposed.
Off my soapbox now. Thanks for letting me vent.
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
I LIKE YOU JOHN STANGER!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You think like a businesman!!!! Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
comon down..johnny....you gona makea big mark in this town.....hahahahahahahaha oh just a side note, ive been in this business most of my life and full time since 86, i paint, am an artist, and seem to have a good business sence, or i wouldnt have been at it this long.i also was an outside salesman for NAPA jobber stores from maine to fl, also ive had all the sales picth/course/motivational retoric. so your 2 yrs of experiance is powerful mojo...when you heard this same stuff in 20 yrs from the other "business minds" and see there places come and go..and iam still here.....then ill listen to you........again i didnt want to hear about chest beating ego...i was just puttin this up there....to show where the IDIOTS are takin the sales.....you did read dat didnt you.
[ September 16, 2004, 01:24 AM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
You are hilarious Joe!
Johnny just offered some great advice. Granted, he dosn't have "all your experience" but, he does have common sence.....Not too common today. No doubt he carried his prior experience from another career to form his well worded opinoin that he graciously shared with his peers.
And yes Joe, we get the point, there are vinyl hacks out there. You need to pick your battles and just do jobs you can turn a profit from. Everybody can function at a different profit level. If the hacks can do it for less, maybe their overhead is lower than yours, or maybe their wife is a school teacher, and they don't really need an income. Maybe they are working for cash and not reporting to the IRS? Well then, they can work for less.......ON TO THE NEXT CLIENT!
As Bob Rochon stated, don't be too stubborn to see places where you can improve. "If you always do what you did, you will always be what you were"
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
For anyone who has it in their minds that you can't do a good sign in vinyl, I suggest you look up Universal Signworks or Art Attack Signs in NH. Take one look at some of the outstanding design work these shops do in vinyl and I guarantee you will be sorry you ever uttered the thought. For years, they have set the standard for quality work around my way.
OP, I hate to be the one to burst your bubble, but there are people "doing what you do"....
Making signs, same as me.
Whether they use vinyl, paint, gold, airbrushes or any other materials isn't the issue.
I've had it up to my eyballs with the "I live in a depressed market" mentality. I live in the middle of East Nowhere, but have decided that it's no longer an excuse that holds water. I truly believe that when you can produce better quality work and build the reputation for it, the customers will seek you out, regardless of where you are. It's not all about "location, location, location". It's about setting up a professional job for EVERY customer, wherever you are, and building a solid reputation for quality and design.
Drift away from that basic mindset....well....you only get as good as you give.
Hope Ivan didn't hurt ya bad. Rapid
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
[ September 16, 2004, 08:27 AM: Message edited by: Rick Beisiegel ]
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
again....you want to stay on me..fine....iam the one who dont know nothing......you wont just stay on the point....iwasnt posten bout me....
Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :
Heck, I just try to create nice stuff priced to afford me a comfortable living (complete with with vacation time and a savings account!) and don't concern myself too much with what other people are doing.
My aim is to cultivate good, long standing relationships with customers who can grasp the concept of value with regards to my skills and services. In this, I feel respect begets respect.
Part of my job description is to educate and strive to earn their confidence ... with words, examples, portfolio ... and patience. I take this part of my job as seriously, as the design and execution of their work. Sure it takes time, but proves well invested for the long term.
Quality? .... hmmmm. Paint, vinyl, wood, hdu, plastic, paper, ink .... whatever WORKS for the job. Folks can create masterpieces with car parts for pete's sakes. The job of a good design in our biz is to catch attention, convey a message, function, be in tune with it's environment, hold up well, ... oh yeah, and look good doing it! "Quality" ultimately stems from decisions made and skills applied with all these factors in mind.`
That's just how I've been seeing it. Nettie
Posted by Rovelle W. Gratz (Member # 4404) on :
Joe, glad to see you are still on line. How did you fair?
I consider myself an Old School Sign Painter, BUT, I started using vinyl with a 4B in the 80s.
Vinyl has been around since before I started in the business in '62, although it didn't jump up there until the vinyl cutting machines hit the market. I was applying vinyl on tractor trailers back then. Most of it at that time was either diecut or screen printed. I used it mostly when you had a lot of mandatory small lettering on a sign, or for DOT numbers on trucks.
Back then, when there wasn't much layout capability with the cutters, you didn't see anyone but professional sign people using it.
Only when the computer programs that allowed easier layout and design came about, and they got a lot cheaper, did you see the people with talent they got out of their wallet come on the scene. Most of the cheaper vinyl plotter companies started spouting the line, "Complete Sign Systems, no skill required, all instructions included".
If you were around back then, you probably felt as most real sign painters did about the signs flooding the market with obvious lack of design skill and material that held up for a month before the edges curled.
The Sign painters I knew then were concerned about the bad image they gave the Professionals who were around at the time.
As you all know, a lot of customers haven't a clue about the difference between a quality sign and one that has a gazillion colors and really looks flashy.
There are still a lot of no skill people out there pumping out signs, but many now have realized the need for design, and are turning out some really great stuff.
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
quote: i quoted him on a 2 x 10 FOR $160!!!!!AND NO INSTALL! so i lost that sale
Rapid
Posted by Janette Balogh (Member # 192) on :
After reading over the first part of my previous reply above, I'm thinking it may sound kinda preachy. But I don't want the point I was trying to make be missed.
OP, I know it's frustrating, but don't fret the ignorance of the other guys out there. Focus rather on building stable relationships with clients that you, in essence, "train" towards thinking in terms of value. Take the time to truly earn a customer's confidence. They will network and build you more of the same kind of clientele.
I'm finding, especially more in this past year than ever, that patience with customers is high on the list for skills to succeed in this business.
Nettie
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
Well said Nettie & Rove!
[ September 16, 2004, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: Rick Beisiegel ]
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
i just want to say i appreciate all the advice, but you all got to understand iam 59,been doin this full time since 86, worked at signs since i was in my teens. ive seen, heard, done, exactly what you seem to have just discovered recently. i think thats what i been tryin to say to all who want to give me proper direction. and the last couple day i have not been me...scared, afraid and tired....the psychological imprint of this hurricane will forever be ingraved in my mind. i grew up in a bar, my mother was italian, card shark, pool hustler, and all around money gruber. her favorite saying when i was growing up was in italian, translated it said "trust was a good man but he died." this was her way. she would take money from people, con people do to work for her for a couple beers, and never feel a twinge that she was usin people. so i know how to seperate people from their money better then most...if i choose to. i also worked outside sales for NAPA and they have meeting on sales practices....motvation, and product knowledge...so iam good to go there...i can sell ice boxes to eskimos....hahahahaha. any of ya who have met me, iam far from shy...and i do get along well with customers. i went thru the APPOLLO LIGHTING SALES seminars,AMWAY CRAP,HOW TO WIN FRIENDS AND INFLUENCE PEOPLe phase, EST, IAM OK YOUR OK,CARLTON SHEETS, more psycobable then most shrinks know. so iam far from inept in dealin with people, but again i apoligize for some of my outbursts...its been a ruff couple day....just relaxin to nite.
[ September 17, 2004, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Bash]](graemlins/bash.gif)
![[Rolling On The Floor]](graemlins/rolf.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[I Don t Know]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Applause]](graemlins/applause.gif)