Currently I am using a local auto body shop to coat my substrate. I would like to do this in house. I was told to look into a airless paint sprayer. I have found one that I like (http://www.gleempaint.com/epspray****p.html). What are your opinions on this? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks is advance.
[ August 10, 2004, 08:27 AM: Message edited by: Devin Fahie ]
Posted by Gene Golden (Member # 3934) on :
Devin, I roller coat. Avoids the spray. Using OneShot or Chromatic or Ronan bulletin colors you can get excellent results. Ronan also has water based paints. I use 9" foam rollers, the cheap black ones, and I get great finishes. You can usually find a supplier that carries Ready-to-Go" Panels in a few choice colors.
Posted by Devin Fahie (Member # 3961) on :
Gene,
When I do coat out a board I use One-Shot, and a roller. I dont know if I just dont have the "touch" or not, but I am really never happy with my results. On the other had when I get them sprayed, it looks like glass, and I am thrilled with the results. Why do you prefer to roll vs. spray?
Thanks, Devin
Posted by Gene Golden (Member # 3934) on :
Devin, Because I can do it in-house! I can mix my own colors. I can add a second color if necessary. Why pay an auto body shop? One of the tricks to using the foam rollers is to make sure it is well loaded before starting to roll. I always roll it in the tray for awhile until the bubbles are lessened. Then I coat the board out quickly and thoroughly, not worrying too much about the bubbles yet. Up, down, zig-zag, across. Then my final strokes are always in one direction, either up or down the 4' width, heading left to right (or right to left if you prefer), with slight overlaps. If you have bubbles still, wait a few seconds and start from top to bottom again with a very light roller stroke. At no time should the board get too tacky. You're only taking about 4-5 minutes to coat-out a side this way. Practice, it works great.
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Devin..I've tried rolling background colours on MDO...NEVER got the finish that I wanted. I spray them all.
Unfortunately I have a spray booth and have to put up with having to turn on the extractor fan and waiting till the overspray leaves to turn it off.
BUT the finish is like glass.
It wouldn't be like glass if I did it outside, it would be more like glass covered with insects or dust.
If you have a body shop that will do it at a decent price and if you don't want to invest in building/buying a spray booth then stick with what you use. Just add it to the price of the sign! Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
interesting to read other peoples techniques, mine is different then Gene's so I'll describe mine too. I always dump a puddle of paint on the board, but based on several years doing it I try to dump the right amount. Then I roll the puddle each direction down the 8' length of the sign so I have a long puddle of paint. Then I set the roller in the thick of it at one end & roll to within 4" of the edge & back to within 4" of the other end working my way quickly down the 8' length of the sign I end up with fairly even coverage about 3-4" away from the edges all the way around. This takes about a minute & now the roller should no be overloaded with any excess paint, so I now go around the board rolling out the remaining 4" unpainted area, following that by a final pass of 4' rolls slightly overlapping down from one end to the other, pretty much like gene said. In my experience, if I get bubbles, it is usuall from too much paint, so I will tear off a sheet of 36" butcher paper, throw on the floor & roll paint over the whole thing to empty the roller, I will often fold it in half to create some space to roll out more excess paint if needed. Then I go back over the panel with a little pressure on the roller to even out the thickness of the coat. After that (of if I never had too much paint) I finish up with one more trip over the panel with just the weight of the roller itself on the paint. If there are any little bubbles, I go quickly back & forth over them 3 or 4 times & they dissappear.
When taping off a border (I usually roll out my borders to the edge & wrapping over the edge) I cut down a 9" roller to about 2" & work from a small puddle of paint in a roller tray. I get too much paint this way, & the bubbles are harder to eliminate... but unless there's WAY too much paint... I just do my best to lay them down & they seem to flow out on there own.
Posted by Artisan Signs (Member # 3146) on :
I roller coated with foam rollers (One Shot's, Ronan Bulletins, etc) for years, then I switched to latex paints, with a spray gun ($99 gun and air compressor),.... and it's the best thing I could have ever done.
I look at the signs I did with oil based paints, and they don't look near as good as the latex paints.
The oil based signs are all "chalky looking" after 2 years.
The latex ones look the same after 5 years outside. And I no longer deal with the thinners, and all the other junk associated with oil based. The finish I get with the latex paint and spray gun is so smooth.
Latex and a spray gun is the way to go.
Posted by Amy Brown (Member # 1963) on :
Bob,
Would you please elaborate on your spray gun & technique? Do you use the paint straight from the can. Everytime I try to spray latex it has to be so thin it couldn't possibly be good for the paint and it takes multiple coats (about 4). I rarely use 1shot for anything because I can't get it to look good either plus it takes dang near forever to dry in humid Florida.
[ August 10, 2004, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: Amy Brown ]
Posted by Sandy Baird (Member # 4773) on :
Bob, I was told that vinyl doesn't like sticking to water based paints so I have avoided this practice. I would very much like to go over to water based only(hate the cleanup). I know they have made advances in water based paint products and was told buy a guy next door who works for Ford that a lot of new cars are now painted with water based. I have applied vinyl over water based painted panels that the customer supplied and after a week or so they are peeling and eventualy drop off. i would love to hear more from people who have gone oil-less.
Posted by Ron Wakefield (Member # 4816) on :
I use One Shot and a foam roller. I use a small paint tray and liner although I might try Doug's method of "puddling" next time. Depending on the size of the panel I break it up into sections and apply the paint liberally. With each new section I overlap a little on the previous one to "join" them. When I've got it covered I go over the whole thing with a larger sweeping motion applying very little pressure on the roller (almost just the weight of the roller inself). This eliminates the bubbles. The last one I did was like glass.
Posted by Mark Yearwood (Member # 2723) on :
For years I only used oil based paint. Now I've gone latex on most things and occasionally spray auto paint for metal signs or where a super gloss is required.
Yes, vinyl works with latex. Just be sure to follow some simple rules:
The paint must be satin, semi-gloss or gloss. It won't stick to flat finishes well.
Use only high performance vinyl. No cheap stuff.
Give the paint time to dry thoroughly.
Use a j-roller, brayer or rivet brush to burnish the vinyl down good.
Get used to the fact that your signs won't have that auto slick finish. I think that's OK. As a matter of fact, I like the satin or flat look better on mdo or hdu signs. It looks richer and has no glare, which hurts readability.
I use flat finishes on the backgrounds of sandblasted signs and satin on everything else. You can lay gold leaf on letters on a flat latex background and the excess gold won't stick to it. Try that with oils. You have to powder it up to keep the gold from sticking, thus more time spent.
Cleanup is easy. Water for thinner. Doesn't smell up the place. Better for your health. Signs look good longer.
Just ask Raymond Chapman, Gary Anderson, Russ Mills and many other top sign artists using latex what they think. (Ray, you can jump in here) Gary has been doing it for years and I saw first hand this summer how his signs hold up in Indiana weather. He and Ray have even learned to hand letter with it using the Mack waterbased brushes.
I'm still working on that.
Posted by Dale Kerr (Member # 4661) on :
I too use Latex paints and roll as well as spray my finishes. Amy, when I spray I thin my paint with 10% floetrol and 10% water as required. You may be able to get a product down there called Thin-X which is a water based thinner for spaying. Some times I will even cut the floetrol into my paint when I am lettering as it allows it to flow so much nicer. I too use Mack water base brushes and they work almost as nice as their quills. Spraying primer is a different story. for primer you truly need a primer gun for spraying. It has to have atleast a 1.8 to 2.0 mm opening or it won't work worth a damn. When I spray I use an HVLP gun and it does a super job.
Posted by Artisan Signs (Member # 3146) on :
Hi Amy,
Here is what I do.
I use a Porter Cable Top Cup HVLP gun from the blue store (Lowes) (orange store is Home Depot ha ha)
I spray Benjamin Moore Impervex Gloss latex enamel (I have great success with this stuff)(lots of colors to choose from also)(I also got a couple of free swatches from the paint store)
For a typical size sign of say 4x4 or 5x5 ft, I use 6 oz paint, 1 oz flotrol, and 1 oz water.
I spray at 40 psi.
As far as the gun settings, I use a 2.2 tip and needle combo (not the standard one that came with the gun). The rest of the settings on the gun are a matter of trial and error.
I also spray primer with the same gun (Jay Cooke's)
As far as vinyl not sticking, I always use gloss paint, and high perf vinyl, and haven't had any problems. As mentioned above, I really bear-down on the vinyl with a J roller.
Hope this helps.
Bob K.
Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
I do the puddle thing too. On the last pass with the foam roller, keep it as light as possible. Sometimes you can hold the roller steady with your free hand and "drag it" across the panel. It dries like a mirror for me. I use 1-Shot or Ronan. Love...Jill
Posted by Kathy Joiner (Member # 1814) on :
In this Louisiana humidity I NEVER coat out a board with oil-based paint.
Another plus for latex is the fact that with quick drying...less bugs.
Posted by Murray MacDonald (Member # 3558) on :
I'm with Doug on the puddle and roll,but up here i haven't had much success with latex. I prefer B.Moore's Impervo gloss enamel and 1/16th foam rollers. Like Monte sez... MUR
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
My turn to chime in with my usual sermon. We use 100% acrylic on almost everything. It outlasts anything we have used before. It is applied with either a 3/8" nap roller or with a HVLP gravity fed spray gun (or brush). If you spray, get the largest opening and needle possible.
Mark Yearwood listed all the positives so I won't repeat those.
We've never had a failure with vinyl on latex, but we use only 3M High Performance.
This morning we put up a 4' x 50' sign (.063 aluminum) that was coated out with latex. Letters were 3' tall vinyl. I tried to get the customer to letter the copy directly onto the stucco finish, but they wanted aluminum and vinyl, so that's what they got.
The best part about latex is the easy clean up and lack of headache causing odors.
And, like Mark said, you can hand letter with it using quills from Mack Brush Co.
Posted by Jay Nichols (Member # 2842) on :
I use the puddle method also (I prefer to think of it like pancake batter) with a stripe down the middle of the board about 12" from each end- break it up with a back and forth zig zag stroke all the way down and then start at one end and work to the other. After a couple of tries you will learn how much 'batter' is necessary for a 4x8. I cut 9" foam roller covers in half with a hacksaw- the smaller size takes a few more strokes but allows greater control of spreading the coverage. I also cut a long roller handle to about 3ft long- allows easy reach to the other side and leverage for that light touch required on the final pass. With a little penetrol in the oneshot or ronan, I get a finish like glass with no gun to clean, or overspray, or respirator, etc. To each his own!
edit- One trick I use if there are multiple panels is to screw a cheap metal cabinet handle to the side of the panel- after paintin it gives you something to grab hold of and move it off the bench or sawhorses to make room for the next one.
[ August 10, 2004, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: Jay Nichols ]
Posted by Amy Brown (Member # 1963) on :
Thanks for the tip Bob. I just used the Impervex acrylic enamel for the first time. Seems pretty good. I want to try Porter but they are too far from here for a $9/ qt of paint. I think I may have too small of a tip for my gun. Can't remember what it is right now. I know I bought the biggest one they make for it though.
Posted by Ian Stewart-Koster (Member # 3500) on :
Sometimes I spray, and sometimers I roll the enamel, depending on the colour & size of the panel.
When it's covered, I have a hole predrilled into the side of the roller, and screw a little 'tek screw' into it against the roller's 'wire'. This way you can sort of drag the finish back toward you and lay it down flatter, pulling the bubbles out.
Posted by DianeBalch (Member # 1301) on :
I puddle my one shot down the middle of the panel. I add pentrol- about 5% and one shot hardener. Afdter i roller around the edges, i go back and forth across the panel. I use a foam roller. When done, I take a wide new foam brush and BARELY touch the surface and pull the brush across, overlapping each time. this knocks down the bubbles.
If it is a small panel, I suppend above it a piece of old coroplast . This prevents duat from settleing on the wet paint. I use paint cans around the edge of the sign to hold the coroplast panels above the sign.
Diane
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Mur,
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I've been informed that Benjamin Moore will no longer be producing it's Impervo line of paints. Seems the EPA has issue with it.
Rapid
[ August 11, 2004, 07:32 AM: Message edited by: Ray Rheaume ]
Posted by Philip Steffen (Member # 2235) on :
I can't seam to get a finish i like no matter if it is latex or oil, using a brush or a roller. I don't have room for spraying, so I just live with the slight imperfections and call them proof it was done by hand. That glassy surface with a roller eludes me, but I'll keep trying.
Regarding vinyl on latex: I thought it was mainly an issue of Plasticiser Migration (which, honestly, I have no idea what it is). I was under the impression that some latex paint brands worked and some didn't, depending on their recipe and the plasticisers i guess. Anyone educated in this. (But i agree that vinyl don't stick for junk to a flat/matte paint finish. But I don't like gloss usually. What's a guy to do...)
I would love a class at a letterhead meet that had a true paint chemist genius that could teach about this subject and not just be taking guesses at what works & what don't.
(And Dale K: Does your local vet know you can use that Thin-x stuff for Spaying?? And water based no less. Don't breath the fumes though, I don't know what it might do to you.)
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
quote: I would love a class at a letterhead meet that had a true paint chemist genius that could teach about this subject and not just be taking guesses at what works & what don't.
I'm working on it, Phillip. Rapid
Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :
It's funny how things work differently for people. Several replies state how well latex works for them. I myself have tried BM Impervex with very disappointing results. Every sign I've used latex on has faded badly in less than 5 years.
I've read several posts that have stated how bad reds and maroon One Shot will fade. I haven't seen it. Every sign I've done with One Shot has outlasted anything I've done with latex.
Could it be the oil base failures are hardware store oils? (chemically safer for the non professional) Or bulletin colors? (designed for short term signs)
By the way, if you don't believe that bulletin colors are not designed for long term use, call One Shot and talk to Kevin Ledbetter. If you are using bulletin colors, try lettering enamel for your backgrounds.
Posted by Ron Percell (Member # 399) on :
Alway sand and clean your boards well.
Pour your paint out onto the middle of your 4'x8' panel in about a 8" pool.
Wet your foam or nap rollar well.
Next paint all of the perimeter(not the sides/edges) well with a heavy load, then fill in the middle.
Now Cross Hatch(left to right and top to bottom)the panel several times using a firm hand to spread all uneven paint out.
At this point we'll wait a few minutes to let the paint level on it's own, then we'll make some of the final passes with the rollar to finish laying down the paint.
Finishing requires a light touch with no down force upon the rollar, so lay the rollar on the surface without any down pressure(anotherwords don't use your thumb) and roll out the panel again, the lack of downforce will allow the rollar to pop any air bubbles, and might take several passes to eliminate the bubbles. If the bubbles persist, then you may have too much paint in your rollar, so you a piece of material (non-fiborous, like alum. plasticore, or MDO) to roll out any excess paint, then roll out the remaining bubbles on your panel, several times if needed.
Always make sure to coat out your boards in the shade.
Good Luck
Posted by Suelynn Sedor (Member # 442) on :
I use the puddle method too. I tried switching to latex for the backgrounds, but I love the nice flat finish you get with one-shot. I screw about a 2" screw into the roller on the handle side. Screw the screw all the way into the roller while you are rolling on your paint. Then when you are ready for the final pass, unscrew the screw so that it hits the handle and won't allow the roller to turn. Then drag this lightly in overlapping strokes across the substrate. It looks like it leaves streaks, but they flood in themselves and dries like glass.
Suelynn
Posted by William DeBekker (Member # 3848) on :
Puddle method 1Shot/Ronan. Have never had anygood luck with any waterbase for backgrounds that need to be lettered over. I am really curious if its due to our Elevation and UV up here. If a manufacture says its a 7 year product I tell the client 5 years at the best.
Posted by Si Allen (Member # 420) on :
Coting out a board is quite sipleand foolproof if you follow the folowing steps:
1. With some 150 grit sandpaper, smoothe the edges and round the corners and edges. 2. Clean off the dust with a tac cloth. 3. wipe the surface with mineral spirits or rapid Prep. 4. Mix in about 5% Penetrol or Edge into your !Shot paint. 5. Using a 7" or 9" short nap mohair roller, coat with the 1Shot starting with the edges then the outside. Finally fill in the center with full strokes in the short direction. 6. Use light strokes in the long direction , overlapping by about 1/2 the width, to even out the paint. 7. Allow to tack up a bit, and holding the roller handle with 2 fingers, very lightly roll in the short direction to pop the bubbles.
You are better off using 2 thin coats, rather than 1 heavy coat.
For more durability, add about 5% 1Shot hardner to the paint.
This method will give you a finish that will rival some of the best sprayed on jobs.
PS... I have found that 1/4" nap mohair rollers cause less bubbles than the foam rollers!
[ August 11, 2004, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: Si Allen ]
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