Have one in your town? I do. It sucks. He has absolutly no appreciation for the trade so he charges 1/2 of what all us hard working, health insurance paying, overhead paying, sign shop do every month.
On a side note, Would it be legal for him to aquire any of the local electric, water, police, fire, vehicles in the same town? Mike
[ August 04, 2004, 08:54 AM: Message edited by: Mike Paul ]
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Maybe you could have him arrested by the Sign Police. Seems like he's out of his jurisdiction being in this trade.
How about having him suspended for "Coroplast unbecoming an officer".
Just go over and tell him what he's doing. What's he gonna do...arrest you for being honest?
All kidding aside, he's no different than anyone else whacking out crap. Short term and most likely going to get the idea one way or another that this isn't like upholding the law.
Criminals are much nicer than tire kicking customers...and they go to jail for attempted robbery. Customers don't. Rapid
Posted by Rick Beisiegel (Member # 3723) on :
I'd do wish him well, but there is alot more to running a studio than just buying a plotter.
[ August 03, 2004, 11:18 PM: Message edited by: Rick Beisiegel ]
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Mike,
While I can appreciate your displeasure, I sincerely doubt it is illegal for him to do vehicles for the municipality that employs him as an officer.
It may give him an unfair advantage and I am sure that nepotism will rear it's ugly head. Unethical doesn't always mean illegal. My Daddy used to say, "What is legal isn't always right."
I have run into similar situations where someone connected with the city, village, town, county, whatever has a friend, brother, uncle, daughter (fill in whatever peeve relation here) that does signs on the side, in their house, garage, trunk of the car, small wooden tool shed in the backyard, whatever.
What really burns you is that they often have no appreciable talent, learned how to make signs by answering an ad in the back of Popular Mechanics, use vinyl materials that would be barely suitable to find a life as a pool liner repair kit, use color combinations and layouts that would leave Chester Cunningham, Emmitt Morelli, and Mike Stevens screaming from the beyond, and use the absolute cheapest and inappropriate materials for the signs one could imagine.
Funny how all those jobs that never have to go out for bid because of some obscure loophole, prices just under the mandatory bidding level, whatever. This goes on until the relation retires, gives up making signs, gets their cutter repossessed, dies, whatever.
Then some other whatever comes around and the whole process stars all over again.
You know what? It's called "real life". Sucks, huh?
Just hang on to the hope that someday, somewhere, somehow, YOU will become that golden sign child and you will become that whatever to someone else. Only this time, you will get it right.
One can only hope, Dude!
[ August 04, 2004, 12:38 AM: Message edited by: Bruce Bowers ]
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
got one here retired military 20+ yrs.(1 paycheck) gets a job at the sheriffs dept in the vehicle maint garage,(2nd paycheck) and does all the lettering of the police vehicles(3rd paycheck)......and has a sign shop a block away from the sheriffs/garage/jail!!!!!(4th paycheck) now talk about havin it all.....
Posted by kent moss (Member # 4295) on :
Most towns & cities have firemen that do the same. Sleep at the station at night, make signs the next day.
Posted by Michael Berry (Member # 2604) on :
Mike + Kent,
Actually I am a full time Union firefighter that has worked as a firefighter for 14+ years. I just so happen to do a few signs and build sign brackets as well. It's America, we can do this!
I have inquired about doing lettering on city vehicles. The fleet manager says it's a conflict of interest, the purchasing director says it's fine. The city garage has their body shop guys do the "stickering" as they call it. They buy the lettering from the prision. The police department has their own mechanic and he's into racing. So his buddy that has a copy shop has bought a plotter. He's now a full fledged sign guy that just happens to supply the police department with their stuff. It IS all who you know, a fact of life that we are not going to change!
Whereas I am a homeowner/taxpayer, what the police department and the rest of the city pays for lettering is public information. Beleive me, for what they are paying, I'll go drown worms or watch the grass grow, it would be more profitable.
Kent- I don't know what your trying to say with your quote....
quote:Most towns & cities have firemen that do the same. Sleep at the station at night, make signs the next day.
I am hoping this is not some sort of slam. It's my chosen primary occupation. That's just the schedule. 2 days and 2 nights then 4 days off. If you think it's all peaches & cream, I have news for you. Come to work with me for a day, do the physically demanding training we do on a regular basis, (90 degrees out, full turnout gear, airpack, climb a 110' ladder, crawl in a smoke filled building, etc)I am pretty sure you will go home with a different opinion/view/understanding of what we do. (not all departments do what we do, be it good or bad) My wife is a teacher, people give her grief all the time about having 10 weeks off in the summer. Again, go to work with her for a day, then spend another 3+ hours doing behind the scene stuff on her own time at home with 2 little kids and again, I think that anyone would leave with a totally different view & respect for what a teacher does. For every hour of classroom teaching involves at least 1/2 of that in prep time.
That's my ramble.
Now the can to open is really the state prisions doing sign stuff. We as taxpayers get to buy the equipment, the supplies, pay for the buildings heat, A/C, power and we go on and on, then they sell the stuff to towns, cities and the state. Around here you see their work everywhere. Now that's a problem in my eyes. At least us firemen pay for own own stuff, even the insurance.
(edited for spelling)
[ August 04, 2004, 07:10 AM: Message edited by: Michael Berry ]
Posted by Felix Marcano (Member # 1833) on :
MY 2 Cents: Mike, I TRY to not let that stuff bother me. Although I'm nothing compared to most "real" letterheads (I can't paint), we're pretty good at what we do. People who are willing to pay for a good sign probably won't go to these nickel & dimers. So in the end, the'll work 10 times harder than you, have less time for their familes, make crappy work...excuse me... as Bruce said: "have no appreciable talent", make more or less what you're making & still burn out in the end... I'll quit here, I think this is gonna get ugly...
Posted by E. Balch (Member # 3545) on :
"Real talent" is extracting a fair payment from your customer. I don't care what the sign looks like, if the customer wants it and pays what you ask, then you are a professional.
The low end customers know who they are, often they will demand the worst possible layout just to look cheaper to their customers. You won't convince these people to spend more. There will always be a market for the cheapest worst looking crap. Why worry about it?
ernie
Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
So many interesting opinions here, but what it boils down to, Mike, is to keep doing your own thing. Specialize in something that only YOU can offer. Build your own client base and to Hell with Barney Fife.
I know it sucks, and I feel your pain. But there will always be competition both good and bad. Thankfully, there is enough sign work to go around.
Broooce, you are sooooooo funny sometimes. Love...Jill Posted by Gene Golden (Member # 3934) on :
Got one around here that opened a shop recently. Works at a restaurant during the day, signman at night (not that there's anything wrong with that). He has a set of 18 x 24 coroplast signs, "a la Burma Shave" lining the highway with messages like: "SIGN'S $15 EACH (QUANTITIES OF 5 OR MORE)". Yes, apostrophe included. Layout all the way to the top and edges. His own 2 x 3 .040 aluminum sign fell off after swinging on the pole for about a week. Holes were drilled about 1/8" from the top, 1" in from the edges. I figure some idiots will buy from him, caveat emptor (buyer beware). I don't figure he'll be in it for the long haul. Just a blip on the screen. It won't take much for these guys to be challenged by a customer, be frustrated in the attempt, fail in the effort and not get paid for the product. Time wounds all heels.
Posted by Rovelle W. Gratz (Member # 4404) on :
I'm sure his cop duties and his vinyl duties don't overlap....right.
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
It sucks when you see jobs go to this twit, jobs you had great mental images of and would have had fun with, then he gets the job & it now looks like someone puked on aluminum.
Will he hurt your business in the bigger picture? Only if your specialty is puke-al-a-aluminum. Set yourself apart and ride it out.
The worst part of all of this will be once he's gone and there's all these fugly signs around town. If ya need inspiration to keep you sane while he's covering the town in puke, think about how great it'll feel when you start replacing thses thing. Taking down one of his fugly ones, chucking it into the dumpster & replacing it with 1 of yours, paradise.
Posted by Jillbeans (Member # 1912) on :
Forgot to mention that this post title sounds like an Adam Sandler song! Love.........Jill
Posted by Mike Paul (Member # 4200) on :
I put out a higher end product than most around this area. he can't kill me. Although I do like those little bread and butter jobs for fill in/cash work. "Barney fife" too funny Jill! Mike !
Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
This sort of thing has gone on forever way before computers came into play. There were always sign painters that held regular jobs and painted on the side. Firefighters had hours that made it quite easy. Nothing wrong with that UNTIL they take the price cutting attitude. They don't have to account for any insurance or any other "business" related expenses. When I had my shop many years ago, I recieved a call from a woman representing some sort of fire fighters association. She was looking for a donation for putting out a booklet that listed all the fire fighters "second jobs" along with their phone numbers.She went on to tell me how they had auto mechanics, carpenters, brick masons, etc. and how you could save soooooo much money by using these people as their prices were much lower than "regular businesses" how these people didn't have to worry with "regular business expenses" and such. I asked her if there were any sign painters listed ( as I knew there would be ) "Why yes there are" she happily responded. Anybody that knows me real well can imagine what went on next Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
Hiya Mike, Find some time and visit this new sign maker. Introduce yourself and make sure you bring a copy of the Computer Graphics Pricing Guide, available here through the book store. I found it better to educate these people and teach them the correct way to run their business versus trying to work against them. One day he may really be your competition. If worse comes to worse, you always can send him the cheapos and time wasters that you don't want to deal with.
Havin' fun,
Checkers
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
its the same in every town
someone is any business is doing it so cheap its embarrassing.
So, I send them all kinds of literature about sign pricing and the proper ways to price stuff. At least they get some education. Often they dont have an idea of what the real value is.
And more, I get lots of my own work by going around and pressing some flesh. It works. oh yes it works.
Posted by Michael Berry (Member # 2604) on :
quote:Firefighters had hours that made it quite easy. Nothing wrong with that UNTIL they take the price cutting attitude. Firefighters had hours that made it quite easy. Nothing wrong with that UNTIL they take the price cutting attitude. They don't have to account for any insurance or any other "business" related expenses.
George,
Is that right???!! Maybe in your part of the world that applies, but I would not even think about anything unless the proper insurances were obtained. But that's just me. Folks drive cars without insurance, have apartments without renters insurance and run businesses uninsured and or without any insurance, I guess if folks do that, then they are pretty stupid, and anyone that deals with them are taking a chance. I know of at least one " real " sign person that has a business and employees without insurance, so it's not just us firefighters.
I'll stop now because this is going way off the intended road. I have my opinions and experiences, and you have had your experiences which by the sounds of it have not been the best.
It's not my intention to upset anybody, if I have, please accept my apoligies.
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
If your doing the same kind of work that the cop does then you should be worried. If not then stop wasting time looking in your rear view mirror.
part timers or not this will be untill the end of time in every profession, hey I even put out fires part time, and I do them for the same price the local fire department does them for. lol
I just don't get involved in the big fires, just the ones I can handle. Posted by Ken Henry (Member # 598) on :
I'm not trying to be nasty or facitious, but I am curious as to why Professional Policemen/women, Firefighters et al, who are Union represented and make decent wages, find the need to have these "secondary occupations" and /or business interests ? Does their "primary occupation" not provide sufficient renumeration ? As a business, I regularly get calls from the Police Association soliciting a donation to support their campaigns or agendas of a political lobbying nature. Whenever I wish to participate in anything of this sort, I pay for it myself...out of my own pocket. Are these public servants so poorly underpaid that they have to work at secondary jobs to support their families, and solicit the business community to promote things like anti-drug or reporting the releases of known sexual offenders.
Posted by Ron Wakefield (Member # 4816) on :
Read "An Opinion About the Sign Game" by Bob Stephans a.k.a. SignManiac. It's here on this site somewhere I think. I stumbled across it, read it, printed it, and carry it with me in my briefcase like a Bible. I'm part-time sign guy also (for 13 years now, holy cow! time flies). I have a loyal base of customers who like what I do for them. I offer them my best and charge like I'm doing it full time. I respect the industry and wouldn't think twice about "whoring" out my work. If someone wants to go to "Mr. Cheap Signs" because I'm too high that's OK. I'd rather spend time playing in the yard with my kids.
Thanks to everyone on this site for being a great inspiration by the way. You're awesome.
Posted by Jake Lyman (Member # 3280) on :
I don't mind part timers. Its the beer distributors that bug me. They have saesmen out selling beer and than the get the work of lettering windows if they can put budweiser on it. We would be getting a lot more work from pachage stores and restaurants in my are if it werent for the "FREE" bud signs.
JAKE
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
mr berry nothing personal....but after reading your post on the hard life you lead as a union fireman and the tough life your wife has as a school teacher, and since you also do signs as well. as a person who has been doing SIGN RELATED WORK(because i love this work) for more years then you have been working as a fireman i dont want to seem rude to you but if its such a tough life and it wears you and your wife down....then i wouldnt do it!!!! i had a cop stop me one time and and give me a ticket and and told me almost the same story and also that they dont pay him enough to put up with people like me...to which i answered..."YOU PULLED ME OVER....i didnt want to talk to you!""" i also had the job/jobs that promised retirement in 20, health insurance, and other assorted benifits,and bullcrap, but me being the dummy i am i pursued this line of work rather then stay in a job i detested. so then this is my only question to you and your wife about the hard path you take for your vocation, if its that unrewarding and requires so much, you either like it and accept the down side of it, or stop doing it! and for an avocation you choose to do my job......sorta funny, maybe i should get a part time job as a firefighter.... or school teacher.........since i already do signs..hehehehehe
[ August 04, 2004, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: old paint ]
Posted by Michael Berry (Member # 2604) on :
Old Paint-
As much as I promised myself I wasn't going to get into this, I feel I need to set you straight....
quote:but after reading your post on the hard life you lead as a union fireman and the tough life your wife has as a school teacher, and since you also do signs as well. as a person who has been doing SIGN RELATED WORK(because i love this work) for more years then you have been working as a fireman i dont want to seem rude to you but if its such a tough life and it wears you and your wife down....then i wouldnt do it!!!!
I never claimed that we have a "hard life" and I love my job as a Union Firefighter. My wife also loves her job as a Teacher.
The way I read the earlier post (am I am sure I am reading it wrong ) it sounds to me that folks think that we sit around playing checkers and sleeping the whole night, just to wake up the next day to go make/sell signs.
The reason that I threw my wife under the tires is because for some reason recently, folks just are always bitchin' about teachers, and how they have vacations during the year and summers off. I was attempting to make folks sit up and understand that teachers earn the summers off. There was never any attempt to make folks think that we have a "hard life" we don't.
Actually Old Paint, we are pretty damn lucky. We both have great retirement plans, health insurance for life after retirement and a ton to be thankful for!!
When I retire at 45 years old, I plan to do even more sign and bracket work on a full time basis.
As far as
quote: maybe i should get a part time job as a firefighter.... or school teacher.........since i already do signs..hehehehehe
if you think you got what it takes.....just try it, it's even more than you think, I promise you that....
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
Wow Op, that was well reasoned and stated pretty much all I want to say. Very Good!
Ok, just a little more. Mike did fine defending his job and such, but what we, who have to make our living solely from signs, could write.
No point in that because most of you know all too well the nut we have to crack everyday to survive. But why go into that, like Don Corleone said, this is the life we chose.
Posted by DONALD THOMPSON (Member # 3726) on :
We have a sheriff's deputy here that has his own plotter. He doesn't do his dept. cars, but everyone else's. He does a fully reflective(2 color) police car for $165.
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Maybe the cop realized what a crappy profession he got himself into... 21 days straight on a shift and only 2 or 3 days off in between.. having to appear in court, unpaid, on a day off... having to deal with the *real* bottom feeders of this fine society we've carved out for ourselves, not just the petty lowballers we have to deal with in our profession... maybe his wife left him and took the kids because she couldn't handle his paranoia. Ever meet a cop that wasn't paranoid there was always someone waiting around the corner to take advantage? I didn't think so - I had to live with one of them.
Maybe "sign making" is his stress outlet, instead of ending up at a bar after his shift drinking himself stupid like 90% of all policemen. My dad got into woodworking and jewelry building.
Maybe he doesn't know any better.
Maybe he's just trying to build a name so he can get out of being a cop.
Haven't most of us started somewhere we didnt want to be?
Did we all come right out of the gate just knowing where our prices should be?
Is all of our work considered masterpieces? Did we all have perfect design and layout skills right from the get-go?
Anyone actually talk to the guy? Is he *really* a jerk whose sole intention is to beat everyone's prices? Or does he just not know how to go about commanding more for his work?
Regardless of what anyone thinks, Ernie is right. This guy fills a market. People want cheap ugly looking crap and he's right there to provide it for them.
People that don't want cheap ugly crap will go elsewhere provided they know where to go to get good product. Make it known that's the kind of work you do and they will seek you out. If there aren't any of these people in your area either move, target areas where there *are* these kinds of people, or change your business so you can serve the market at hand.
Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
Plotters and software have made it possible for people that years ago would have not even considered being in the sign business to make that jump. And its a small jump. 2 grand for a good plotter, 500 for a computer, find someone with some cracked software and you are in business. In my small town, we now have five different "shops" other than myself. It has affected business to some point. Most of the people come to me for the custom stuff, but lately seem to go elsewhere for the coro and metal signs or magnetics. Its hard at times to get jobs, and Mike B., I hope you see our point about someone already making a good living at a hard job going into the sign business as a sideline. It affects the ones that do it as their only living. But, thats free enterprise. Technology has made many things possible. Not all bad, not all good. I keep trying to offer things my competitors cant. Hopefully itll all work out.
Posted by Michael Berry (Member # 2604) on :
John,
Thanks for your constructive point, yes, I guess I do see what you mean.
Mike
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
Mike, I see nothing before your post for you to get defensive about. A lot of people start and build their signshop while still holding a fulltime job instead of going in debt to the wazoo and jumping into the quicksand without a rope or a clue. There is nothing wrong with that, as long as they don't intentionally underprice just to be an ass or because they figure they don't need to charge the normal rate. All that does is screw the people who do this for a living without the security blanket of a paycheck.
In this case it's a cop. Kent stated firemen do it as well. Ok, you're a fireman. Do you charge ridiculously stupid prices? If not, get over Kent's comment. If you do, then you shouldn't feel defensive, you should feel guilty.
As for the defensiveness towards Perkin's post: You need to wake up & realize if you, as a taxpayer-paid employee (fireman, cop, dog catcher, DOT worker) also run a business on the side and actually charge accordingly, have insurance, licenses, collect sales tax and operate you are the exception to the rule.
Posted by Michael Berry (Member # 2604) on :
Chris, good points, thank you.
Posted by Ray Rheaume (Member # 3794) on :
Everyone here who has never had to struggle to get thier sign business off of the ground, including working part time at it, or part time at another job, raise your hand. . . . . . . . . . . . yeah, I thought so.
Rapid
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Ray,
Hell, NO! I was born one of those golden child sign dudes who was oozing with talent right out of the womb!
I make money for doing absolutely nothing. I don't have any real overhead. I just make gobs and gobs of money as those checks just pile up in my mailbox.
I don't do any real work. A couple of keystrokes and the signs just design themselves. They cut themselves, cut material mysteriously appears out of nowhere, vinyl is magically weeded, taped, and applied while we sleep off the previous night's bender.
Huh? You don't believe me? That's what all my customers think... Don't they realize I am just an uneducated and unintelligent sign slob? Sheesh.
Hahahahahahahahahahaha!
See ya in a couple!
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
Magically weeded vinyl - now there's a money-making product if anyone could come up with it.
People think our machines do that monkey-work for us.
I once had someone waiting in the office here while I weeded a quick job for him. He sees me weeding all the little crap out and he say "Oh man, you have to do all that stuff by hand? I thought the machine handled all that too but now I see why this kinda stuff costs what it does."
Posted by JDuckett (Member # 4505) on :
Nice post before Mike P. There are probably an unlimited number of reasons someone may make signs on the side. I for one do my work on the side because I must keep a full time job to help support my family. Just because I may get a job on the side doesn't mean I stole a job from a full time sign shop. If I design a logo and brochure for a business, it doesn't mean I stole work from a design firm. I have been involved in art since I was old enough to pick up a pencil. Just because I don't do this work full time doesn't mean I haven't earned the work. Maybe one day I will also be able to live from my art and design work. If not, I will still paint and design for others or myself after working at my other job.
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
I don't do anything on the side. I run all my business like its the only thing i do. I make some money. Each one I do does fine. Now if the cheapy cop type dude did that then there would never be a conflict between the full timers and the hobby timers.. YES???????????
Make money, all that you can on every job. But just one point. When some oen calls you asking for pricing help do u offer to meet with him? or do you give him some kind of story.
Posted by KARYN BUSH (Member # 1948) on :
i don't think mike paul was complaining about people making signs on the side...his beef is when they charge 1/2 of what they should making us fulltime signmakers look like rip off artists.
i no longer try to justify my pricing to people...if they don't like it they can kiss my lily white ass and go to the cheap guy, get a shytty layout and calender vinyl...giddy up.
[ August 06, 2004, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: KARYN BUSH ]
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
mike, i know about being a fireman, i was a volenteer fireman in our small town in pa. most there dont have big city equipment, pay scales and union benifits or retirement. we did because of the want to help each other. been to many fires, worked my butt off at each one. my own house in pa went up in flames....i know fire. also when i was in college i was an assistant to the art prof. when he wasnt there i taught, so i have some teaching experiance. we also held extention community classes in the evening and i taught there as well. here iam connected to a search and rescue(all volenteer). iam also teaching a class in TAI CHI starting in sept. so i also have other interests.
Posted by Felix Marcano (Member # 1833) on :
Karyn's definately my kind'a gal! I totally agree with her too...
Posted by Joe Endicott (Member # 628) on :
Part time sign people, are like any other part-time occupation. There are good and bad. Some "shade-tree" mechanics could destroy your vehicle by looking at it...others are the best mechanics you'll find.
As long as the person takes his/her job, product, and customer seriously, then I see no problem. I am looking toward taking a full time "real job", and doing signs part-time from the house in the near future. It will allow me the benefits of full time employ (insurance, 401k, etc.) and the freedom to pick and choose the jobs that I want to take on. Having been in the business for a while now, I understand the value of my work. And the quality of my work and my prices will not fall simply because it will be done at my home after 5pm, and on weekends.
The way I see it...it isn't so much a matter of the part-time folks, but any sign maker that pushes the WalMart mentality of cheaper is better, with no regard to value. It is the inexperienced sign maker who can't produce the necessary quality, and therefore aims for higher quantity. And passing along incorrect "professional advice" with every order(whether spoken or simply inferred) Because 15 ugly, amature signs does not equal one professional job.
I know full time sign guys who have been in the business forever, who lose money consistantly because they under cut somebody elses price. We just recently had a very large sign company in town go out of business because of this. I recently submitted a bid on a job for a lighted can sign...the winning bid (from a legitimate shop with over 20 years experience)was below my wholesale cost. The kicker here is that the shop that did the sign uses the same vendor for their electrical sign work....they lost money because they didn't take the time to set up the bid completely and correctly. They just bid under everyone else.
Posted by Mike Paul (Member # 4200) on :
Nice post before Mike P.? What post? ? Did you read my post? your answer doesn't fit. Part time and cut throat have different meanings jduckett.
YOUR WORDS> (I must keep a full time job to help support my family)?
HMMM.... KIND OF MY POINT.
Mike
[ August 06, 2004, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: Mike Paul ]
Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
The biggest point this thread makes is that some people in this business are willing to point the finger and look to place blame on absolutely everybody and everything except themselves when their business doesn't do what they think it should. If you were actually the most talented,gave the best design,the best service & quality and all that other BS that,of course,every one here provides their customers at all times then this guy would affect zero about who you are and what you do,or your present customer base. If someone like this does,maybe thats a message to take a good hard look at how you,that dummy that looks back at you in the mirror, actually runs your business and handles your customers, and stop being so full of your own a*s that you think you're entitled to the whole pie without making the effort to get more than one slice.....at the very least it oughta give you a dose of reality that noone in any industry is irreplaceable no matter what it is you think you do,thats the message thats getting missed here. If the same guy showed up and posted here that he was doing it as a second job and said he liked the sign biz by now we would have invited him to 37 different letterhead meets,bought him a stevens book and kissed his a*s so much it would have blisters while telling him how absolutely breathtaking whatever work he posted is..until the poor SOB asked for clipart. Mike Berry,I hope you read Joe Endicott's post and a couple of the others,because you've been around here long enough to know that what people say here and what they actually do here are two completely separate issues...if you stop and notice...all this "it's how I make my living" is a do as i say i do not as i really do...if anyone here actually was willing to live by this same morality,why are there so many here so willing and so quick to print their own buisness cards,make their own app fluid,build their own equipment or paint an entire vehicle with 1shot when all of those are are ways that others make their living...unless of course they do it because they dont charge what they need to charge to buy the correct tool or use the correct procedure for the job. In that case,its the fault of the guy up the street of course. Chin up and don't let the what you read here make you form an opinion unless the naysayers are gonna send you a check everymonth. The fact that some are willing to think you make an astronomical salary as a fireman oughta be a sign. Don't let it burn your a*s...literally.
Posted by Mike Paul (Member # 4200) on :
"Cop with a dime store plotter? Have one in your town? I do. He has absolutely no appreciation for the trade so he charges 1/2 of what all us hard working, health insurance , overhead paying, sign shop do every month."
"Dummy that looks back at you in the mirror, actually runs your business and handles your customers" ..... What the hell are you talking about? Full of my own ass? Do you know me?
Have one in your town? It's just a simple question. Did I say I was worried about him cutting into my business? .. No. Did I say I felt threatened by him? No. Read the post. Take a deep breath and relax. Have a drink.
It's a simple question on a sign forum. The dummy is the guy charging 1/2 price. Are you having a bad day or are you always so judgmental? Maybe you read into the question a bit to far.
Mike
Posted by Dale Kerr (Member # 4661) on :
Well OP, With all that fire related experience, I would think you would then know how to light a fire under your ass and get that shack of yours built... What is the hold up. LOL Dale
Posted by old paint (Member # 549) on :
hey dale....you know the old sayin..."everybody likes a little a**, BUT NOONE LIKES A SMART A**"? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...i be doin the best i can.....i wana be around you when you body hits 59.....my mind is 30, but when i try to move my body like i did when i was 30, it just dont happen.....hahahahahahahaha/
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mike Paul: Nice post before Mike P.? What post? ? Did you read my post? your answer doesn't fit.
He may have been referring to my post, I'm also Mike P.
I don't think Gavin is talking specifically to you Mike Paul, but in general to many people here whose feathers get ruffled when someone else undercuts them then continue to blame that person (or shop) for the failure of their own business. Like I said in my first post, we all have to be willing to change our business model from time to time in the name of progress. Sticking with the same product and processes for 30 years just doesn't cut it.
Gavin's also a full time sign guy and paint distributor, and a part time cop. Go figure. Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
We can all go home now, Gavin has spoken. Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
we can all get a pair of reading glasses now... Gavinhasspokenagaininhisuniquelegiblestyle
Mike Pipes... I highly doubt your rational level-headed reply was the Mike P in question... & Mike Paul... come on, how could he mean you ? "good post until Mike P" This is your "good" post... how could it be good until you?
My money is on "Mike P" meaning Mike Berry.. the only really defensive derailment of this thread I've seen. (not attacking your legitimate comments Mike B... but they just seemed too defensive & un-neccessary... & IMHO did de-rail the discussion somewhat)
Posted by Bob Rochon (Member # 30) on :
Whether Gavin has "spoken" or has a uniquetotallyillegiblestyle, he does make a few good points.
Posted by JDuckett (Member # 4505) on :
I agree, nice points, Gavin. Thanks Mike Pipes. It was your post I was referring to before.
Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
Its not gavins points I totally disagree with, its his style of getting them across. Belittling someone to illustrate a point, such as dummy, ass kisser,etc., aint the way to do it.
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
But, Brother John Deaton...
Sometimes we are all dummies and ass kissers. Hey, I admit that I can. Heck, I can be a real jerk sometimes, too. Sometimes we just can't help ourselves.
I won't speak for Gavin but I didn't think his post was all that bad and he did make some very valid points. It is hard for me to read every word he writes and I have to fight the temptation to just skim over it.
Hey, thanks again for my awesome Panel Swap panel... I can see it from here!
Posted by Mike Pipes (Member # 1573) on :
alright, alright, let's quit complainin' about the way Gavin types and get back to the issue at hand: OP's misuse of punctuation and misspelling! Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
OK.. I lost "my money on Mike B" but I wanted to add the hardastheymaybetoread... I agree that Gavin makes good points that justify the effort to read them,
but, back on track...
quote: here iam connected to a search and rescue(all volenteer). iam also teaching a class...
OP teaching? thats a scary thought.. but "connected to a search and rescue"? wtf does that mean? a repeat customer (regular victim)? hahaha
Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
Mike Paul,how you could inject yourself into my response i really don't know,but perhaps the fact that I didn't mention you by name should have been a tip off. It's also too bad that some people here don't know (on a pulled political post) that Mr Deaton there doesn't care for me since we locked horns because don't share the same political views, and because I'm not a resident. Big deal in the grand scheme of things,but hey things happen. The only thing I can offer you John is that if what I write or the way i write doesn't meet your standards of acceptability, then skip on down to the next reply. Sorry, but I have no intention of changing how I write or what I say for you or anyone else,I enjoy being myself far too much to do that......I post here because i get enjoyment in knowing just maybe one person out of 4000 that register here *might* walk away after reading something i posted and maybe will retain it.........I spend zero time worrying about offending people by telling the truth or giving honest answers to those who are going to put themselves to the forefront of every post and automatically assume the post is solely about them. Funny noone here can read what i write yet theres never a shortage of people who are willing to tell me that . And Bruce,you're right,you're not speaking for me...I never had a problem doing that for myself.
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Gavin,
You are so right there, Brother!
It isn't that I can't tead what you write. I said I have a hard time reading because there isn't any breaks. I literally have to follow line by line with my finger. Hey, what do you care? You don't have to try and read it... LOL!
See ya on chat!
Posted by John Deaton III (Member # 925) on :
One thing you dont know about me Gavin, is I dont hold grudges. Lots of things have been said on this board that upset me, but it always passes. Just as it did with you and your replies on the aforementioned political post. I left for a few months after that happened, cause I was letting stuff get to me. On this post, what you said may have had merit, but in my opinion was lost in the way it was said. I didnt come down on you about it, just disagreed with the tone in which it was offered. Thats the way you are and thats fine. You seem to have alot of friends on here, and it seems I am outnumbered in my thinking of how you offered up your thoughts. I dont agree with alot of things said on this board, as I am sure there are alot of people that dont agree with what I say at times, but, Im hungry right now, so Im gonna go eat something greasy and fried and artery clogging. And one other thing, I dont blame anybody for anything that happens to me concerning work. I stay very busy and dont worry too much about competition. I have five other vinyl shops around me now. Ill just continue to put out the work at the prices I know its worth and thatll be that.
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
A truth that’s told with bad intent Beats all the lies you can invent. William Blake
Posted by Bruce Bowers (Member # 892) on :
Damn, David, do we like owe you fifty cents for that tidbit? LOL!!!
Posted by Bob Stephens (Member # 858) on :
I lurk and laugh. The more things change, the more things stay the same. Screw all the bulllshiit.
I adopted a baby burmese python...In a few years he will eat all your asses.
Posted by David Wright (Member # 111) on :
Bruce, believe me you're gonna pay. Time to let Bob's snake out. Mike Berry, take a look at that flaming folder icon next to this post, do your job.
Posted by Rovelle W. Gratz (Member # 4404) on :
Most of my Sign Painting Career has been part time while I was in the Air Force and after my retirement, while I worked for The Air Force and The Air Force Headquarters Command as an Illustrator.
I have never been a cutthroat. Most of the time, I have been the most expensive Shop in Town, paying lease, insurance, taxes just like the full time guys.
I always sent the Price Shoppers to the other guy...while he is tied up doing the cheap stuff, I get the gravy.
Posted by Michael Berry (Member # 2604) on :
David-
I would put it out. But since I am defensive & derailing, I figured I'd just let it burn.
Some things just ain't worth it the effort......
[ August 07, 2004, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: Michael Berry ]
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
SO MUCH good stuff contained here. I'd have to sit alone and ponder it seriously to get all I could, but the following are some initial thoughts:
I'm seeing some pendulum type action here.
Often the emotionally charged issues provoke people to in depth responses, too bad it brings conflict. The truth is that SOME part time sign people act like such and such, SOME full time sign people are the bad practicioners. That's the only way to make sense and glean from these replies. Otherwise, how do you know who's right? It all becomes contradictory post modern nonsense.
I'm thinking that part of the puzzle pieces aren't showing in this discussion.More pendulum, or maybe "dominoes" is the right term:
Running a sign shop, with all it's expenses, makes for some "high" ( I know that's relative) sign prices. So John Doe thinks to himself: "I could sell that for less". But why is John Doe needing extra money? Because money doesn't go as far.
In order to maintain the same standard of living as his parents, he has to work more hours. His wife working is just an extension of this.
All the companies he buys from have to protect themselves from a constant stream of skammers, junk lawsuits, thieves, so they add that into their prices.
He's paying lots of money in interest for a house, car, appliances, etc.
Health care costs, which includes the doctor's soaring malpractice insurance.
So EVERYBODY'S expenses are higher, and it leads to this kind of free for all, chaotic marketplace.
With the technology around us, we should be able to more with less time and money, instead of a situation that is desperately opposite of that.
I think the problem is much bigger than who's ignorant of true business costs.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
James, that was an insightful reply.
I think many people (not all) in a position (mindset, &/or lifestyle) to take on a new business venture or career change are more likely to meet a few other criteria... one might be that they often are not(yet)indulging in an excessive material lifestyle, & another might be a willingness to struggle & make sacrifices as part of the price for making change & taking on new challenges.
If this theory is even partly true... a new guy offering lower prices, while still directly related to lower overhead (if said new guy sacrifices commercial location, state-of-the-art equipment, impressive new shop truck etc. etc.)may never see himself as "lowballing"... and even if he knows of the higher "market value" established by some, or most of the competition... this new guy, who sacrifices some of the material worlds offerings partly because they're too dang expensive, actually considers the competitions prices to be "gouging" and his prices to be fair. This hypothetical new person identifies better with the mindset of a consumer who resists some material excess as a lifestyle choice... & some as a economical neccessity (which of course subconsciously influences lifestyle choices anyway)
...so if this theory that low-priced competition could sometimes be a result of an altruistic view of moderation in material excess keeping overhead down, & moderation of profit required keeping prices down...
is the difference between the low-priced new guy & the expensive veteran always as black & white as good & bad, or right & wrong?
Note that my hypothetical new guy is cutting out the fat in legitimate ways (home-based... less expensive equipment, vehicle, home, food, lifestyle) NOT by illegally employing un-insured workers, dodging taxes, or schlepping calendared vinyl & coroplast...
I think it is as black & white as "what is a dollar worth?"
What is a dollar worth anyway???
...more here then there... more tomorrow then yesterday... more to these guys then to those guys.
I realize that this long winded spiel sounds like a roundabout way of saying not all business people with low prices are ignorant fools or maliciously watering down percieved value...
but it is also a reply to James about technology not seeming to make life easier. The new guy above was me in many ways, & I live paycheck-to-paycheck today like I did 7-1/2 years ago when I started, but the difference is where my check goes. Now it goes to a mortgage on a house, a new truck payment, Digital equipment lease, an IRA, family health insurance, fine dining, the best tools, computers & home furnishings etc. etc.
The reason technology isn't making life easier for many of us, is we (I) fall into the trap of wanting all the technological new material things in my home, my shop, my truck, the places I do business... want want want... new new new hi-tech hi-tech hi-tech.
I was talking about marketing yesterday & discussing ways to make more money in less time. I admitted that although many of my shoot-from-the-hip prices are easily enough to cover labor & material at a profit... I don't get turned down enough meaning I could get more! Not only could I get more from the mid-range clients who are happy with my prices, by raising them enough to where they "willingly" pay... instead of "happily" pay... I could raise them even more to eliminate the mid-range clients & only serve the high-range clientele.
The problem I could also fall into is making more money... but wasting that "extra" time learning about new technological advances to invest in furthering my excessive material lifestyle.
After consciously resisting for 2 decades, I'm glad that I bought into part of the typical American dream of owning a business instead of working harder for $10 an hour in the shop up the street like I was 8 years ago, & I'm glad I have a decent house, a reliable truck & health insurance... but I think the advantages of opportunities in America are all-too-often negated by the lure of the American dream.
If I think I need more... I can charge more... & I'll still probably work more.
If I can switch to needing less... I can charge less... & I can probably even work less... & I would probably be happier!!
...as long as I never let anyone here know I was charging less Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
Doug, I'm glad about what you've accomplished, especially in your "location, location, location!" But I KNOW it requires alot of work and concentration.
When you said John Doe might consider the new shop truck, nice shop, and equipment as material excesses, it kind of brings up the point I'm trying to make. (Not that you didn't already get it, I'm just trying to hammer it some more.)
This is for everyone:
I'm thinking that the technology around us as a whole country should make those "excesses" an everyday reality. The price of housing, cars, you name it would be low enough for everyone to have. But prices are through the cieling.
Occaisionally the politicians tell us how good the economy is. I say phooey. If the economy were great, you'd only have to work 4 days a week, and spend one day on art, self improvement, charity, whatever, this while maintaining the "American Dream". Working 5 days work start you toward wealth.
SO MANY hidden costs. So people spend their "extra" time trying to get a few bucks. Folks, your money aint what it once was. That's why a silver dollar from the early '60's is worth 4 bucks (or whatever an ounce of silver sells for today.) The government took us off the gold standard years ago, so people really don't have anything stable to compare a dollar to. It's all a big show where people don't know what things cost, all long as the standard of living is maintained. Work more hours, pay more in interest than your grandparents would ever allow themselves to.
You want to do something different and interesting? Try this: Get a tape recorder. Go out and interview some old folks ( like 70 or 80). They really don't mind. Ask them about life back when. They'll tell you that they saved up money for a down payment on a house, then paid it off in 5 years. Or they bought land, built a tiny cottage, which later became the guest house, and while living in the cottage, built the big house. And BUILT is the word. Often stronger than codes called for.
Ask them how many divorced and remarried people they knew. They'll stop, concentrate, and come up with one or two names.
Leave it to Jimbo to bring politics AND religion into a thread, but you're just dancing around the edges if you don't recognize the CAUSE AND EFFECT relationships about turning away from God.
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
BTW, I'm not condemninig all debt. I think I read recently that Karen Bush only has a couple payments left on her truck. It'd be my guess that she's not driving a piece o' junk. That's impressive.
But I think alot of people in debt are closer to being "upside down", or even bankrupt.
Posted by Rovelle W. Gratz (Member # 4404) on :
Most of the people who are working part-time jobs now are doing so to have more stuff. I know some people work part-time to bring in enough money to run their household if they are in low paying jobs to begin with.
I don't think one has to work more now to have the same life style as one's parents.
I am older than many on this board, but if my hypothetical parents were in the Sign Business:
My Mother probably did not work outside the home.
My Father the Sign Painter probably did not have a part-time job.
They probably had one radio in the house. Not a component sound system, or systems if you have children.
If they had a TV it was probably the only one in the house, not one of three or more with surround sound connected to cable or a satellite system.
They probably had one phone which served for the business as well as the household, unless the business was located away from the house.
They probably had one vehicle for the household, without air-conditioning, not three or more as most households have now.
He probably did not have an air-condidioned shop or house.
They seldom, if ever went out to eat at a restaurant, unless they were traveling.
I have worked part-time most of my adult life. Most of my part-time work has been as a Sign Painter. While my full time job was running a Motion Picture Lab, Photo Lab or as an Illustrator.
I think after all is said and done, I did it because I Love doing it.
By the way, before I retired from my last job I worked a 4 day week as did everyone else in the shop.
Posted by Doug Allan (Member # 2247) on :
gotta agree w/ Rove on this one... if we didn't desire more then our parents we wouldn't have to work more. Just because cool things got invented doesn't mean we need one... or 3 Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
James: Steve & Barb have asked repeatedly for no religious or political posts. Thanks for deciding you are exempt from that.
Oh, and thank you for more of your sexist comments, far from being your first, doubted to be your last and for condeming everyone who chooses NOT to believe in your religion. I keep forgetting women aren't allowed to WANT to work, they're suppost to stay home on their backs, spouting out more brats & serving the all important man. If that's what your religion tells you, I'm damn proud to state I will never believe in your god.
Posted by Todd Gill (Member # 2569) on :
I know everyone is ****ed at everyone in this thread...but I LOVE IT!
Because for once, I didn't start the fight...there's hope for me after all!
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
HUH?
Chris, you've expressesd yourself so well. Now I'm trying to figure out who this guy James is that you regard so warmly. His beliefs don't fit mine, see.
Women can't work? Best boss I had was a woman. What I'm talking about is women FORCED to work, just to maintain a standard of "living". Back when, a woman could be home for her children if she chose to, and spend time during the week volunteering at the Red Cross, things like that. I really do believe that "the hand that rocks the cradle rule the world". My wife home schools our children, because we think the public school teaching is incomplete.
And what do I do? I run around trying to make a buck. Sometimes I really do wonder who serves who. That and I've recently come to see an area of life where women actually have the superior approach, but I havn't wanted to bring that up, 'cause it is rather OT.
As far as religious and political posts, is that a post or a reply? I don't think I'm splitting hairs here. Sure, I could be certain to not utter a single word that was along those lines, but in the above topic, it would only further the illusion that everything's OK.
Or maybe I could use the blank approach: Your money's not worth what it once was because.....took us off the gold standard.
When was the last time you saw me START a topic that was political or religious? It may have happened, but it's certainly not common.
I think it would be wierd to always dance around the edges, skirt the issue, etc. I don't engage in much nonsense entertainment, and I do alot of studying on topics, including religion and politics. By comparison, my replies here are VERY modest.
Actually, I appreciatte the fact that you can rail against my replies. If I wasn't capable of defending myself on a given topic, then you would prove me wrong, and that's how it ought to be.
You know, I don't get up in the morning, wring my hands together, and think:" Today I'm going to tick alot of people off by saying they left God. Boy I can hardly wait!!". I know it's not profitable in alot of relationships, but I usually try to be silent or brutaly honest. I don't go along with the party line, regardless of who's saying it.
I could further address things you said, but so much of it was too cliche. Life is quite complex, simple accusations and answers won't cut it. You're a smart woman, I know you can do better.
Posted by Kissymatina (Member # 2028) on :
Yes I can do a lot better. I can read and remember Steve & Barb's numerous requests that nothing religious be posted. I apologize to Steve & Barb.
I can also realize when I've come across someone who just isn't worthy of my time.
Posted by James Donahue (Member # 3624) on :
It just occured to me that hey, maybe I do need to adjust my thinking.Sort of like how I'm always thinking people need to deal with reality, not idealism. So maybe financial things could be discussed this way: OK, there's this problem, and this problem, and the other problem, but this is how we deal with our financial things in the immediate context, nevermind what got us here. That may contain sarcasm, but it's not my primary intention. Like maybe it's posible to discuss and help people understand financial things in the here and now.
Lately I've been getting people asking me to paint things: equipment, cars, trailers. It's really hard to find rust, corrosion, whatever, and not want to deal with the source of the water. Sometimes, they're willing to pay me (not cheap) to paint over something, and not find the cause of the problem first. That's hard for me to comprehend. But hey, maybe it's possible to discuss things that way.
![[Dunno]](graemlins/dunno.gif)
I'd do wish him well, but there is alot more to running a studio than just buying a plotter. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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!
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Old Paint-![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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But I KNOW it requires alot of work and concentration.