the good real estate step stake signs. Alluminum face with steel frame. what is a ball park price. I have a few old frames and dont know what the going price is. Doing 3 for a construction company that doesnt like the cloroplast and wire frame jobs.
Posted by Checkers (Member # 63) on :
Hiya Ryan, Back in Jersey, I used to get $90 for a basic frame and insert. It was 1 color lettering on a white background with up to 3 lines of copy. Normally that was name, what they did & phone number. Here in Harrisburg, you're lucky if you can get $59.00 because someone else will underbid you just to get the work
Havin' fun,
Checkers
Posted by Jane Diaz (Member # 595) on :
1) 18X24" aluminum blank in a angle iron square frame - one color, simple copy, 5 words or less. 1 sided $100.00 2 sided $115.00 The next and remaining signs are 10% off IF you order them at the same time as this one.
Posted by kent moss (Member # 4295) on :
Jane Diaz--I can not understand your pricing on a 18"x24" 1 sided $100., 2 sided $115. Come on now, $15. additional for the 2nd side.
Ryan--I have not made a 18"x24" in years,[unless it only says for sale & tel.no,U can't read it] Show customer a 24"x36" sample sign & step frame, all lettered up w/ real world sign design,they most always want the larger size. Contractors are proud of what they do & there co. name. Just did 3 signs,each 2 sided w/step frames,for $840. 3 colors,hp vinyl,on .040 alum. Materials [my cost] $17.ea. frames,.30 ea.sign clips,alum.signs $9.50 ea.,app.tape,vinyl,computer & ploter hr.rate, my hr.labor rate.
I have a wide ploter,I try to buy 60" or 48" vinyl rolls.I charge as if I were using 15". Buy aluminum in 4'x 8' sheets, chop em up w/shear into blanks,chage as if bought ind. smaller sizes.
Congrats. 2 u & wife,on baby girl,they grow up so fast. Your wife & stumpy were real nice to talk w/at Dixie.They asked all about Charleston, said they have alwayas wanted to vist.
Posted by jimmy chatham (Member # 525) on :
ryan if you get $75.00 each you will be doing good.
Posted by Jane Diaz (Member # 595) on :
Well, Kent, would you be happy if I said $57.50 per side? He asked, I told him. If you can get $280 a piece for them, more power to ya! Mine were quick, one color and yours were three color, w/ logo? I would charge more for more colors or a logo too, but I thought this sounded like he wanted the budget deal. Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
I tend to agree with Jane...The "layout" has been covered in the one side, so has the blank and the frame. The only real additional cost is the extra vinyl and app tape for the second side plus maybe 10 minutes in weeding and application. At $10/yd Cdn. For 24" vinyl that is about $5 additional material.
I'd probably charge an extra $25 rather than $15. The customer will still think he's getting a great bargain on the second side, but I'd be making $20 for about 10 minutes extra work.
Posted by John Arnott (Member # 215) on :
About $55 ea. (18x24) single sided w/single stake. No design work.
Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :
One sided $90.00. Two sided $115.00. $7.00 extra per side for 2 color. This is with the powder coated round rod welded frame, basic layout. Same price with a simple logo if I already have it on file.
If they will only pay $59.00, another company can have the job. I timed one out just 2 weeks ago and the labor and materials came to $75.00 for the one sided sign. I don't need to lose $16.00 per sign to keep busy.
Posted by Tyler Malinky (Member # 4693) on :
I usually would get around $75 for a 24x18 sign, single sided, two colors, including frame. I can layout some text, cut weed and put it all together faster than some of you, I suppose, based on your prices. this works out for my $50 an hour shop rate plus materials no problem. If there are multiples of the same, I would have no problem doing half a dozen in an hour, and that seems like good profit to me. Maybe because I am in a home workshop, and don't have much overhead aside from a small yellowpage ad, cellphone, and utilities, but I make good money making signs with these prices.
Posted by Dave Grundy (Member # 103) on :
Tyler!!!!
quote:I can layout some text, cut weed and put it all together faster than some of you, I suppose, based on your prices.
Don't COUNT on it!!!!!!!!!!! Posted by Jon Aston (Member # 1725) on :
Tyler:
I just took a quick look at your website...you do some very nice looking work!
I hope you won't mind me saying this...
Just because you can afford to charge what you are charging...doesn't mean that you should. Assuming - for a moment - that you can probably get some of the higher pricing posted above, why wouldn't you? For whatever it is worth, I think you are selling yourself short. You might want to consider "testing" some higher pricing...inch it up over the next year or so. Understand the value of what you have to offer your customers...and don't be afraid to sell on that basis.
Sorry...I'll shut up now. Posted by Mark Smith (Member # 298) on :
What Jon said! Try this math out: 10 signs @ $75 (let's assume profit is $30 when labor and overhead are factored in) = total profit of $300. We'll use the $300 figure as a target here.
Now raise the price to $85 each - just a $10 difference. Profit is now $40 each or a total profit of $400. This also means you could exceed the target profit of $300 (above) and make just 8 signs instead of 10.
It gets better if you raise the price to $95. The profit goes to $50 each or $500 total - meaning you can again reach the targe profit of $300 - but this time make just 6 signs.
A small change in price reflects a HUGE change in profits and can mean the difference between long hours of hard work to achieve comfort and shorter hours of hard work to achieve prosperity.
Best wishes!
Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :
Mark is right on the money.
Every other year I buy a signwriters pricing guide. I always thought those prices were way too high. Then I read an article about the guy that wrote the guide. He was told by a shop owner that his guide's prices were way too high and that he couldn't be competitive using the guide. The author challanged him to price everything out of the guide for one month, and that he would make up the difference for lost work. The author's wife thought he was crazy and was very nervous for a month.
He didn't hear from the guy in a while and the author finally called him. The shop owner admitted that he was seeing record profits since he started using the guide.
So.... I started pricing a lot of signs from the guide. They are way higher than I would have been a year ago, and I'm not losing many if any jobs.
Posted by Tyler Malinky (Member # 4693) on :
I agree with you guys in that the more profit, the less work you have to do, so it makes up for lost jobs from tire-kickers. Since about the beginning of the year I have been raising my prices bit by bit, so longtime customers don't get put off. I have noticed that $10 or $20 difference in a small job doesn't tend to make a difference in getting the job, and that is extra money in my pocket. I think it is a big leap to go up to $100 or so for a one color, no special layout aluminum sign with a frame. I know that the far majority of my customers would not pay that amount, and would go elsewhere. But I have been working my way up in the payscale...
Posted by Mark Smith (Member # 298) on :
quote:I know that the far majority of my customers would not pay that amount, and would go elsewhere.
I respect your feelings on this, Tyler, believe me I do. However, I think if you try it you will find that the customers you lose because of price are only those that you got because of price.
When I teach my hourly-rate class at the NBM trade shows, I emphasize that it is critical to establish your relationship with the customer based on something other than price.
Generally, the foundation on which a relationship is formed (applies to personal relationships too) is inviolate and will cause the relationship to fail if it's messed with. So as long as the basis of your relationship is anything other than price (f. ex. promptness, neatness, gorgeous work, etc) then price becomes one of the "flexible" details. But if you based the relationship on low prices, then you're stuck with that as the foundation.
Hope this helps!
[ July 14, 2004, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: Mark Smith ]
Posted by Rovelle W. Gratz (Member # 4404) on :
Kent, the reason for the 18 X 24 signs is probably because that is the size that is allowed in residential areas.
With some of your prices, I'd like to see the look on the faces of the customers that call "Joe Cheapo Slap On Vinyl Signs" for another estimate. Have you seen the "deer in the headlight" look?
Posted by Curtis hammond (Member # 2170) on :
Yes! what mark and jon said.
Just because you can does not mean its good to charge less either. It hurts the entire industry by being a bench mark price setter. I made that mistake long ago and learned a couple of lessons.
1) the cheaper price brings in cheaper people. These are the one that will beat you to death. Wanting a favor, non pays, bad checks, tire kicking for every $5 buck job. And telling you that the other guys will do it for $3 bux less.
Higher prices weed out the favor beggers. It goes from granting a favor with a low price to giving an added bonus with a higher price. Giving the unexpected extra value brings em back for more. Not giving them a "special" price.
Look at Burger King. Their price war cost them dearly. The service is bad they dont have enuf help. They went from a really good value and service to beg them to get you something. Their stock is low and they are closing locations. Wendy's is passing them opening more stores and will be #2 in a matter of months. Wendy's didn't fall for the cheaper gets more money trap.
And finally. Charging less cuz you can does not make you a nice guy. I went from being a low pricer to one of the highest prices around and I still get work. Yes. I get less work.. BUT I make more money. No more grabbing every job and phone call. Another secrete. When they say "when can I have it?" I can tell them in many cases today if you order it now.
I forgot to add. Our local signaraxxx franchise dude quotes job production times of 10 days. I get so much work because of that I almost want to call him my retirement plan.
The bonus. I have the time and money to practice and learn new stuf.
[ July 14, 2004, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: Curtis hammond ]
Posted by jack wills (Member # 521) on :
Pay close attention to JON and Mark!
They da mans........MAN!
CrazyJack
Posted by Wayne Webb (Member # 1124) on :
quote:Generally, the foundation on which a relationship is formed (applies to personal relationships too) is inviolate and will cause the relationship to fail if it's messed with. So as long as the basis of your relationship is anything other than price (f. ex. promptness, neatness, gorgeous work, etc) then price becomes one of the "flexible" details. But if you based the relationship on low prices, then you're stuck with that as the foundation.
Never heard it put quite like that! But that's the truth.
Posted by Stephen Faulkner (Member # 2511) on :
To me the term Letterhead means striving to be more than just another sign maker on the corner. It is an opportunity to be the best in this chosen craft, and to reap the benefits of doing so (better profits and enjoying your work) !
Why the hell don't we try to offer something more than what our competition is willing to out bid us on? Why are we "competing with these halfas shops rather than charge according to VALUE?!
A yard sign gets a lot of attention for the contractor, gutter guy or whatevah, now compare that value to print or airwave media cost. Whoaaaa! talk about a buck for the bang!
When I was doing yard signs they started at $350 2 sides (what value is there in just one side?) The customer got a handsome sign that stood out.
If one more person whines that "they can't get that in my area" I'll have an anurizm!
Ryan if you can't get $400 a pop for them leftovers then do some wiz bang adverts on them for yourself and shove em' out front. Ya' know like gold leaf or tribal flaming flamingos or whatever sells for serious green stamps! The jobs that come in will pay you back and you will prove the point I'm trying to make.
Better than average workmanship should pay better than average rates!
Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
Well whenever a pricing thread appears here apparently the term letterhead means he who strives to be full of more sh*t than the next guy and not who does the best design,shares knowledge etc.......notice we started at a realistic $90-$120 range,went to $280, starting at $350 now we have a starting price of $400. What hapened to $450? $500? Cmon we can bid these up so high that absolutely noone will ever want one and we can all have more free time to sit around tug on each other here on the BB and blame it on the insurgence of franchise shops. Personally i stopped doing these when i was no longer able to do an 18x24 for less than $850 and when my competition started doing them for $830 i realized the futility of trying to work that kinda hourly rate,so who am i to have an opinion on this.....but I do have a legitimate question on pricing methods here. Most people here use some type of quantity pricing method,so here's the dilemma........at an average price of $350 for an 18x24,for the sake of treatise here lets say a 4x8 averages out to roughly 15 18x24's.so we would realistically have to charge our customer $5300 or so for that 4x8...yes? is this too low,on the money,what? I just hate leaving money on the table and i really dont want to be in a position of having to take in more than one of these jobs a month,i just can't do that volume thing.
Ryan,in all seriousness,use one of the pricing guides,estimate,your own formula....figure out a price that allows you to make the % markup consistently that you need to operate and put $$$ in your pocket...not an answer exactly but thats a number only you can come up with....figure it out and you'll always have cash flow and always make money....someone on here is always gonna tell you you're too high or too low,but notice they operate on different sets of standards....theres no upper limit to what they're worth but let MDO go up from $40-$42 and it's like jesus himself came down amd slapped em.You know as well as i do when a pricing thread comes up here it starts out at $200 and by the time it ends up people have been followed home from a point in traffic when a customer was so awestruck by the mike stephens inspired design on their vehicle.... that they followed behind them tossing rose petals upon their feet and were willing to take a second on their own home ....if it meant being blessed for even one second with paying any price with no upper limit to be grace with the multitude of talent they have to offer....just too bad more often the same sales skills that get used to sell people on things dont get put to the same use with customers..might actually draw some in.
Posted by Stephen Faulkner (Member # 2511) on :
Yeah I figured the concept would be lost on some.
Seeing Ryans work in posts here I didn't think he had himself a 5 man shop selling a mile of vinyl a month..... or that he wanted to.
Why not figure $5 bucks over break even..... with the 3 frames ya got that'll be $15 profit.
Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
Well i 100% agree,the concept is lost on some...thats precisely why this thread went from people offering honest advice to now being up to $400+..and trying to convince each other how much more one gets than the other guy......and usually the higher the price goes in threads like this,the less able or willing anyone who claims to be getting these prices is to offer any type of explanation of the process, or provide any type of picture evidence that these sign classics exist other than "well thats what i charge,i know what i'm worth".... Noone bothers to ever say well, i used estimate and based on my shop rate of $Xamt, and a 100% mark up on materials involved,i came up with a price of $126.70 and it takes me about 40minutes to do one. Never anywhere was it suggested that anyone do these for $5 over break even,but why should we addresss the orginal question and stick to that when we can tell everyone else how much more we charge than them........Instead, these threads go like this: "you get 350? i get 450 how can you work for that?" and it quickly becomes a game of bend over and take some more smoke up your a*s...and unfortunately, some here buy into it and use it as an excuse to be defeated before they begin. He wanted a ballpark price on a basic aluminum sign and frame...no goldleaf,no smalts,no dimensional carving,no splitshades.....basic layout with a slightly better than avg layout designed for readability.......add in some negative space to make in readable and give it a decent margin upper and lower....and you've probably cut your work area down to maybe 14"x19".....so on this small a work area,does the customer want something thats going to be readable and identify him in order to bring him more buisness,or does he want $400 worth of bells and whistles that provide so much distraction and backround noise it becomes an unreadable piece of crap from any distance other than 3" away? Istill wanna know if based on these pricing structures if $5300 or so is the going price everywhere for a 4x8 or not.
Posted by Raymond Chapman (Member # 361) on :
Yep, that's what we used to get - had to go up to $6,000 to make any money though.
Posted by Mark Smith (Member # 298) on :
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Mine were quick, one color and yours were three color, w/ logo? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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