Hi Everyone, I have a client who is really picky (REALLY). He has given me a couple of pantone colors for an HDU sign we're doing. Mixing 1 Shot by eye is out, I need a colormatch. This would be a prime time to use automotive paints, but have never used them before. Any pitfalls I should be aware of, special considerations, application methods (I'd like to roll and brush if possible), all the stuff. Thanks! Nicholas
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
Matthews Paint (www.signpaint.com) does PMS matching...ooops I also forgot, Akzo Nobel does it as well.....
[ May 28, 2004, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: Rick Chavez ]
Posted by BrianTheBrush (Member # 1298) on :
I think SprayLat (who owns 1Shot) is a merchant here. Check them out.
Posted by Dave Sherby (Member # 698) on :
Me thinks that brushing or rolling automotive paint would give marginal results at best. After all, the stuff is made for spraying. I had to match 5 PMS colors for a sign once. I called the One Shot factory and their chemist gave me the formulas for their lettering enamels. Four out of the five recipes was right on, the fifth needed some tweaking but we got it right within a few minutes.
Posted by Rick Chavez (Member # 2146) on :
Ooooo I didn't see the roll on..automotive type paints should be sprayed, wow I never knew One Shot had PMS figured out....that is cool, what I could do with a formula book of that....
Posted by Gavin Chachere (Member # 1443) on :
Nicholas,you can easily roll automotive paint or use it to letter with,i own an auto paint store and do it all the time simply because its a waste of money for me to go buy 1shot when i have shelves full of colors and can mix it in acrylic urethane. You can't do it with colors containing metallic b/c you'll never get the metallic to lay right or evenly with a roller,it will stripe and look like a zebra with mange...if it only has pearl in it for an irridescent look you can. Since you mentioned PMS colors this shouldnt be a problem(metallics). I dont have a way to post pics here or i could show you 2 or 3 i've done that way. It is a bit different than oil based or latex but with a little bit of practice its bery easy...get past the mental fact that its thinner than oil or latex and sets up quicker,and you need a short nap mohair roller not foam and you'll be fine...Mathews makes a brushing/rolling additive that works great(just like penetrol).....remember people hand brushed car bodies with mitrocellulose lacquer that had the consistency of water and got beautiful results even on vertical panels...just dont let the very first thing you try with it be the customers job..practice first. You dont mentioned/who/what where you're painting or maybe i could give you more insight,or someone else could. Despite of what companies marketing is going to tell you there is absolutely no difference between the paints mentioned and some lower end automotive offerings by some companies,except for a few different additives and the packaging on the can. Clue:PPG owns Mathews and Akzo owns Sikkens automotive....you can do your own math from there. As far as just walking into a auto paint store and hoping to just order a PMS color....they're going to have MAYBE a handful formulated,the demand just isnt for em trust me. Like rick mentioned, Mathews and Akzo both offer PMS matching,but know 2 things going into that: 1. You're dealing with a different set of pigments in mixing colors than you are with inks or 1shot 2. They're always gonna claim spot on matches,but its gonna be a close approximation,not necessarily an exact match to the chip/sample. Like Dave just mentioned...4 out of the 5 were right,the fifth took a little adjusting,and maybe you dont have the exact pigment shade you need in auto paint to make that adjustment the rest of the way.Even if they have the paint matching gun/computer set up and hit the samples with it,its not going to give them a definite color to use nor a breakdown of whats in it like when you bring a sample to home depot or benjamin moore,it gives "close approximations",which is a nice way of saying you spent $50k on this system and all it did was save you 15minutes of looking thru color books to narrow it down to the 4 colors that this sample could be....point being dont necessarily trust that method blindly and hope the customer doesnt notice. If this guy is a pain in the ass that bad and may hold up his samples to what you paint,theres more than likely gonna be a problem....remember you dont know how old/how well the sample is or has aged that he brought to you either,that factors in,or even if he just pulled this pms color off his screen in photoshop and whats printing out isnt necessarily pms1234 blue etc. My personal faves are the ones like happened today that now pick their own colors in Microsoft CreataCard and bring in a sheet of paper and say well i want this blue..no i dont have a formula but its B=12432 G=5432 R=994593...ya ok,sounds like every pms color i ever heard of. I dont know if i helped or hurt replying here but if you want more detail on rolling etc you can email me or if you can wait till tues i dont mind explaining on the phone,might easier and less lost in translation than typing.Just $.03
Posted by Bob Stephens (Member # 858) on :
Gavin, that's one hell of a good post reply in my opinion!
Posted by Monte Jumper (Member # 1106) on :
Something else you want to remember ...Even the printers (whom the pantone charts were created for so they could mix and match (tranparent inks) with are allowed to be of as much an (plus or minus ) 10% thats a 20% range...be sure to tell your customers that when they pick PMS colors to match...it's very important...even the pms paint matching people (Mathews and the like)are not "dead on"...and neither should they(your customer) expect you to be.
Always remember... Inks are Transparent... Paints are not (thats why they turn muddy when trying to match them) Good Luck!
Posted by Jerry VanHorn (Member # 4704) on :
Since we do a lot of custom painting on Harleys, etc... we also have rolled some auto paints with good success. here is a photo of a carved sign. We rolled the background, let it dry, pre-masked, carved, guilded. Turned out fine. Posted by George Perkins (Member # 156) on :
Great answer Gavin, BTW, thanks for the tip on the Matthews additive, it's been working great. I've rolled soem auto paint in the past and have done a LOT of hand lettering with it lately. Like Gavin says , it does take a little getting used to but it will work. The main thing that jumps out at me is the really picky (REALLY) customer. These type people to me have a problem and are just plain unreasonable. I mean if everybody on the planet was that way NOTHING would get done. If I sense a customer is going to be picky above and beyond the norm I won't fool with them, life has enough headaches as it is without asking for more.
Posted by Monte Jumper (Member # 1106) on :
Nice sign Jerry are we to assume then that your family is in the funeral business as well as the sign biz? If so you need to meet Chris Elliot...he's a regular here and his family is also involved in the "here after'...you two should get together...think of how much fun it would be to show up at meets in matching black Limos wearing double breasted suits...dark sunglasses...smoking big cigars and representing the "Letterville underground"
Sorry ...couldn't resist!
Posted by Jerry VanHorn (Member # 4704) on :
quote:Originally posted by Monte Jumper: Nice sign Jerry are we to assume then that your family is in the funeral business as well as the sign biz?
No, we just happen to have the same last name. He made sure to tell me to put a space between VAN & HORN. I never have.
Posted by Jerry VanHorn (Member # 4704) on :
Another thing to consider:
even if you have an automotive paint code, there are several variant decks that go along with most colors.
lets say you have a 1994 Chrysler and you want to do a fender. The car is 10 years old, so NEW paint is not going to match the old paint. They may have 5 - 10 variants to choose from for the same code. If your guy is that picky let him have the paint mixed and bring it to you.
Posted by Brad Ferguson (Member # 33) on :
Nice reply, Gavin. Knowing that Matthews is owned by PPG is very interesting. I use Matthews polyurethanes every day and my Formulary has a huge section on Pantone colors. I have used the Brushing/Rolling additive a lot with good results, although the Nuance colors (satin) will come out streaky. The gloss colors level beautifully, though. I have repainted Taco Bell drive-up menu cabinets in sun and wind and, by working quickly, have achieved beautiful results, not quite "sprayed-looking," but the next best thing. The gloss and leveling are very impressive, yet the paint sets up quickly, minimizing the dust problem. One drawback is that Matthews is sensitive to water spotting till it's cured. Try not to paint in the rain. I have also mixed Matthews Brushing additive into Grip Guard polyurethanes, and Grip Guard Brushing additive into Matthews polyurethanes. Everything worked and looked great, though long-term durability is of course open to question.
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